The Shroomery

World Seed Supply
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract   OlympusMyco.com Olympus Myco All-in-One Grow Bags   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4  [ show all ]
OfflineLearyfanS
It's the psychedelic movement!
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/20/01 Happy 23rd Shroomiversary!
Posts: 34,220
Loc: High pride!
Last seen: 10 hours, 26 minutes
Believers and non-believers
    #623118 - 04/30/02 10:55 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

Maybe we all believe the same thing, but to different degrees. I'll try to explain.
Believers basically believe that the soul goes through the same basic process that we all know the body goes through.

The earth gives birth to life everywhere. All of life is made of the same stuff that the earth is. "Believers" believe that "the essence" gives life to the souls, using the same ingredients that it is made of.

When life on earth "dies" it decomposes, and once again becomes a part of the mother that bore it which is the earth. The earth doesn't reject any of it's children because of things that that lifeform had or had not done in it's life. Why would the earth punish or reject itself? "Believers" believe that when the soul leaves it's body, it also goes back to it's place of origin, which some call "the essence", and that "God" or to use a better word, "Life" would not reject it's child for anything that the lifeform had or had not done in it's life. Why would "life" punish or reject itself?

It seems that the big question is weither there is a soul or not. Believers feel in their heart that they are a tri-part being, and take the leap of faith that the process our souls go through, is similar to the process that our bodies go through.

I believe. If you don't that's fine.




--------------------
--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month:  Sons Of Adam - Feathered Fish


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Learyfan]
    #623151 - 04/30/02 11:26 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

Why would you even post something like this?

I believe. If you don't that's fine.
Nice "humble" statement... I sure am glad you're the tolerance king.

It seems that the big question is weither there is a soul or not.
Actually, I don't give two shits about that question. I think it is more of a problem for egocentric individuals who want to live forever because they're afraid of the ultimate unknown: Death.
"Maybe if I have a soul and my soul is eternal, I won't really die..."
Gimme a fuckin' break.
YOU DIE. That's it. Game over. If there is an afterlife, it will just be a bonus. But don't count on it. Live your life regret-free by never doing anything you'd regret. It's that simple. Only the egocentric would need the afterlife crutch.

But, of course, "If you don't (believe this) that's fine"... you'll just be another pain in our collective ass.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Sclorch]
    #623159 - 04/30/02 11:36 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

I sure am glad you're the tolerance king.
ROTFLMAO!


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Learyfan]
    #623180 - 04/30/02 11:47 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

It seems that the big question is weither there is a soul or not.
I have yet to get a straight answer on this: From where does this belief come? Did this spontaneously come to you or was it from your culture? Would you still believe in a soul if you had been born alone on the hypothetical desert island? I think not. Seems to me that it is merely myth handed down.

Believers all talk about faith. I want to know the source!

Let's consider abortion for a moment and disregard personal moral stands on the
issue. With the soulless model of life, it is non-problematic because it is a continous model. However, with the soul model of life; everything gets extremely complicated and legalistic. Does the soul enter the body at the point of conception(what about 1 nano-second before or after?); when born, when the heart starts, when the umbilical cord gets cut? Does the soul hover nearby waiting for the perfect set of physical conditions to enter? Is a condom evil by preventing the soul from entering? On and on it goes...

No one has a clue, hence the endless arguments by theologans.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineskaMariaPastora
Utopiate
Registered: 03/14/01
Posts: 443
Loc: MA
Last seen: 21 years, 1 month
Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Swami]
    #623237 - 04/30/02 12:51 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

According to the Tibetan Book of the Dead, the soul enters the fetus 49 days after conception. I think that's the only faith that tries to put a number on it. Where they got that number I have no idea.

I think the main difference between believers and non-believers is just terminology. When you die, the energy that was running around in your brain doesn't disappear. Energy cannot be created nor distroyed, merely changed in form. When you die your life energy disperses out rejoins everything around you. This fact is not inconsistent with either the mystical or scientific models. Believers chose to label this life energy as a "soul" and scientists label it as "electric potential" or something. I think we all believe essentially the same thing, and when we all die we will interpret what happens based on our semantic framework and therefore all be proven correct.

Non-believer: "Hey look, my energy has been transfered to the soil I'm burried in, just like I thought!"
Believer: "Hey look, my soul has left my body and fused with Gaia, just like I thought!"

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLearyfanS
It's the psychedelic movement!
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/20/01 Happy 23rd Shroomiversary!
Posts: 34,220
Loc: High pride!
Last seen: 10 hours, 26 minutes
Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Sclorch]
    #623238 - 04/30/02 12:51 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

You people are unbelieveable. I posted this thread to show that us believers beliefs are somewhat similar to the non-believers. It was sort of like a peace offering. Sort of like saying "hey we're all basically the same". Or "hey there's not much difference between us. Let's come together.", and this is what I get. I get attacked.
I even included a picture of the Beatles(symbolic of the believers) and the big Blue Meanie(symbolic of swamiites)

Why would I post something like this?
Oh, I don't know, maybe because this is the Spirituality and Philosophy forum? What made you react like that?

I believe. If you don't that's fine. (LF)
Nice "humble" statement... I sure am glad you're the tolerance king.

Please explain why that statement is not humble and tolerant. I believe, if you don't THAT'S FINE. What's so bad about that statement, and why did Swami take such glee in me getting called out about it? I noticed you said YOU DIE. That's it. Game over. and swami didn't require any proof of that



--------------------
--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month:  Sons Of Adam - Feathered Fish


Edited by Learyfan (04/30/02 12:58 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLearyfanS
It's the psychedelic movement!
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/20/01 Happy 23rd Shroomiversary!
Posts: 34,220
Loc: High pride!
Last seen: 10 hours, 26 minutes
Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Swami]
    #623242 - 04/30/02 12:54 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

I have yet to get a straight answer on this: From where does this belief come? Did this spontaneously come to you or was it
from your culture?

Culture. There's your straight answer. If that's not straight enough for you, then let me know what you want me to say, and i'll say it.



--------------------
--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month:  Sons Of Adam - Feathered Fish


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Learyfan]
    #623334 - 04/30/02 02:58 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

Swami- Everyone KNOWS that a soul is created at the moment of ejaculation. Duh.
I'll let someone else comment on the ramifications of that tidbit...

Culture. There's your straight answer.
Finally.... Thank you.
Now we can dispel the myth (calm down).

I take it that the illegality of the mushroom is also a cultural hand-me-down, yet for some reason I feel like you have abandoned that value...
So, you must have arrived at the conclusion (one way or another) that entheogens are not evil. That means you were, dare I say it (Yes! Dare!), SKEPTICAL of what you were told.
This leads us to the issue at hand: the existence of the SOUL.
Your dogmatic insistence (I haven't forgotten about the pseudo-tolerant statement "If you don't [believe] that's fine.") on your position leads me to further question your reasoning methods. If it was just how you were raised (what you're comfortable with... read: what makes you feel secure), then what reasoning calculus are you currently using that allows you to toss the "entheogens are bad" stance but not toss out the "existence of a soul" stance?

If it makes you feel comfortable and secure, that's fine, but if you don't seriously question the foundation upon which that belief stands (a la Descartes?), then why would you post such a belief, since you know we're going to shoot it down?

Don't trade your cognitive liberty for security.
It's a bum deal... trust me.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Learyfan]
    #623363 - 04/30/02 03:47 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

Learyfan, I understand and accept the idea that everything is part of a greater whole. I would refer to this greater whole as 'The Universe' or 'Nature.' However, I do not seek to impose anthropomorphic qualities upon the Universe or the unknown, nor do I seek to define the rules for it. Rather, I seek to discover it's nature and to learn what rules it operates by.

Using terms such as 'mother earth' or 'father time' for example show that the user of such terms is in some sense assigning human values to some aspects of the universe. This says more about the users semantic/linguistic model of the universe than it does about the true nature of what they are attempting to describe. Another idea that is tightly held is that the universe must have a conscious designer. I have yet to get a satisfactory answer as to why this is so, usually people will point to things around them and say 'look at all this, somebody must have made it.' This is again, applying human concepts to the universe at large. What they assert may or may not be true, but it is only an assertion and does nothing to unearth greater knowledge or facilitate understanding of what is already known.

The concept of soul seems to me to be largely an extenstion of the survival instinct being filtered through the rationalizing mind. All normal people want to live and keep living, what better way to accomplish this than not dying. But since everyday we see the mortality of our fellow humans, most of us try to comfort ourselves with the thought that a conscious part of us, a 'soul,' will live on. A whole industry is built upon this (religion) and is a source of great material wealth and power to those who operate it in it's various forms.

I am quite willing to accept the prospect that I am mortal. I am willing to accept the prospect that the universe might not operate the way I would like it to. I have no hidden agenda, my goal is to constantly grow in my understanding of the universe and the rules it operates by. In order to do this I have to be able to seperate the actual from the desired, the real from the fantasy. To fail to make these distinctions is backpedaling away from my goal, and will lead to atrophy instead of growth.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: ]
    #623377 - 04/30/02 04:16 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

Great post evolving.

Why is it that the "skeptics" on this board are so literate and can articulate their thoughts so well?
It must be because we don't believe in poor grammar and mediocre thinking...


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRevelation

 User Gallery

Registered: 08/04/01
Posts: 6,135
Loc: heart cave
Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Learyfan]
    #623391 - 04/30/02 04:25 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

"I even included a picture of the Beatles(symbolic of the believers) and the big Blue Meanie(symbolic of swamiites)"

So you "hand pick" all of these pictures before you post? That must be a pain in the ass.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Learyfan]
    #623409 - 04/30/02 04:48 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

Culture. There's your straight answer.
Yeah! A shroomery milestone.

So the "faith' part of the equation comes not from trusting God or The Universe, but from believing stories that you were told as a young-un. Why is difficult for believers to accept that there are those of us that do not buy these handed-down myths? Some of us want more substantiation than an ancient tale.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #623424 - 04/30/02 05:09 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

You gotta love ska! Ever the ambassador, trying to unite the warring factions (no sarcasm intended).

I think the main difference between believers and non-believers is just terminology.
I have to disagree here (albeit not strongly). There is no doubt that I live due to forces and conditions over which are beyond my control or choice (that I am aware of). I will accept the terminology of "life-force" as a reasonable discription for this mysterious something.

I think where believers and non-believers separate, is in the INDIVIDUALITY of souls. If there are individual souls, there is no reason (except arrogance) to believe that they are limited to humans. So every time a creature gives birth, a soul factory creates a new piece of mysterium. And that piece of mysterium will retain it's individuality in some other realm for all eternity (is there an algae heaven?) These assumptions do not seem to fit any model

...and when we all die we will interpret what happens
When we die our memories and bodies are obliterated. So what part of "me" will interpret or continue? Some part that "I" have been unaware of my entire life? Then that is most certainly not "me" as is commonly perceived.

I can accept "The we are all drops of water that will return to the ocean" theorem. But when the drop is returned, it is no longer a drop. All boundaries and hence, individuality, disappear.

Hope I am somewhat clear in these ramblings.

Hey, this is one of the first "real" discussions on this forum. Now if we can just make it thru with no one muttering the A---- word, that would be something.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (04/30/02 05:18 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Learyfan]
    #623430 - 04/30/02 05:16 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

You people are unbelieveable.
Aha! I knew you had a skeptic bone in your body somewhere. A believer that does not believe. Oh the irony of it all...

...and the big Blue Meanie(symbolic of swamiites)
WTF is a swamiite? I want no followers, no cult - hey wait, do I get to "initiate" young female disciples and lots of free drugs?

and why did Swami take such glee in me getting called out about it?
Glee is the highest teaching and I was not laughing at you. I happen to find Sclorch a funny guy. Don't be so sensitive. I love you, too!



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGRiMBLe_GRuMBLe
journeyman
Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 80
Loc: Alabama, Land of Cubensis
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #623445 - 04/30/02 05:30 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

According to the Tibetan Book of the Dead, the soul enters the fetus 49 days after conception. I think that's the only faith that tries to put a number on it. Where they got that number I have no idea.

by skaMariaPastora

That is the same amount of days it takes for the pineal body to appear in a fetus. I'm pretty sure this is proven if anyone wants to research. Of course it may not be related, buts its a striking coincidence.

Peace


--------------------
Free Yourself From Yourself

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineJPAtanat
member
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 101
Last seen: 21 years, 6 months
Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Swami]
    #623554 - 04/30/02 08:30 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

Perhaps you are right - that this is one of the first "real" discussions we've had on a while. I noticed a comment you made:
"I will accept the terminology of "life-force" as a reasonable discription for this mysterious something. "

whether souls/life-force live on or are individual is probably not as important as the nature of the "mysterious something." That is what I am most interested in. It is the raw kernel of consciousness - what makes me a sentient creature.

I think that maybe the difference between believers and non-believers is that non-believers want to figure themselves out in terms of the world around them, and with believers it is the other way around. I think it was evolving who had a rather eloquent post earlier about attempting to discover the rules that this universe operates on. Whereas I am not interested in the rules that the universe operates on, I am interested in the rules that my kernel of consciousness (soul/life-force) operates on, since that seems to be the fundamental ground of my being.

I think that at least understanding, if not accepting, the fundamental paradigm of the opposing group would help out our discussions alot, so that we could get past this childish way of trying to prove that the other is stupid or closed-minded or whatever. So let's persist in this discussion and try to gain some ground in that respect.

I hope that makes some sense.


Peace Earthlings.

Edited by JPAtanat (04/30/02 09:23 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Learyfan]
    #623691 - 04/30/02 11:49 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

For me, being a believer means believing in myself. It's funny how that works out...


Love,

The Lord

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLearyfanS
It's the psychedelic movement!
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/20/01 Happy 23rd Shroomiversary!
Posts: 34,220
Loc: High pride!
Last seen: 10 hours, 26 minutes
Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Swami]
    #623830 - 05/01/02 06:28 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

You guys really took offence to this post, damn. That really surprised me to tell you the truth. I don't want to keep going on, but before I do, let respond to one thing from swami

So the "faith' part of the equation comes not from trusting God or The Universe, but from believing stories that you were told
as a young-un. Why is difficult for believers to accept that there are those of us that do not buy these handed-down myths?
Some of us want more substantiation than an ancient tale.


I admit that the concept of a God is something that's been handed down to me from my culture. Someone also pointed out that "mushrooms are bad" was another, and that I decided to ignore that one. Good point, but "don't stick your finger in a lightswitch" is something passed down from generation to generation in my family(even before electricity!), and i'm sticking with that one. My experience has tought me that God does exist, mushrooms aren't intrisically bad, and sticking my finger in a lightswitch is bad. My point is, just because a concept has been handed down to me by my culture doesn't preclude the fact that it might just be right.

Now there's no way I can prove or explain why I believe God to be a reality, so don't even ask. I don't have the brains for it. I'm oatmeal north of the eye brows, ya heard?



--------------------
--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month:  Sons Of Adam - Feathered Fish


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Learyfan]
    #623881 - 05/01/02 08:18 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

Why is difficult for believers to accept that there are those of us that do not buy these handed-down myths?

My point is, just because a concept has been handed down to me by my culture doesn't preclude the fact that it might just be right. Now there's no way I can prove or explain why I believe God to be a reality, so don't even ask.

All of that is fine LF, but did not answer my question above.



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineTannis
ZoneTrooper
Registered: 12/13/01
Posts: 508
Loc: MD.USA
Last seen: 21 years, 1 month
Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Learyfan]
    #624023 - 05/01/02 12:08 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

I understood that you were talking about the similarities.......I like it. I don't think that everyone is comfortable with the idea though........its the reason I posted some stuff lately.......

I think its important to know why you believe or disbelieve anything. Your motivation is like a rudder of a ship that steers you.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIn(di)go
People of the sun.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/29/00
Posts: 8,157
Loc: Cologne, Germany
Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Sclorch]
    #624242 - 05/01/02 05:38 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

sclorch... no wonder you?re ingnored... but im a believer... and i agree with living your life regret-free... cuz one learnes out of everything... and theres no use in regretting the past, cuz thats not who we are... its who we WERE...


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIn(di)go
People of the sun.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/29/00
Posts: 8,157
Loc: Cologne, Germany
Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: GRiMBLe_GRuMBLe]
    #624253 - 05/01/02 05:50 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

first, id like to add that belief does not come from culture, it comes fro the heart...

and grimble_grumble... remember, there is no such thing as a coincidence... therefore the fact that before we started breathing air to live (we extract the chi, prana, mana, whatever you like to call it from the air), we absorbed that divine energy directly from the source through the pinneal gland, ain?t a coincidence either...


--------------------

Edited by Lozt Soul (05/01/02 05:57 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIn(di)go
People of the sun.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/29/00
Posts: 8,157
Loc: Cologne, Germany
Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: JPAtanat]
    #624256 - 05/01/02 05:52 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

Whereas I am not interested in the rules that the universe operates on, I am interested in the rules that my kernel of consciousness (soul/life-force) operates on, since that seems to be the fundamental ground of my being.



thats because your kernel of consciousness is made out of exactly the same matter the universe is made off... the soul is the essence of god, if you want to put it in those terms...


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIn(di)go
People of the sun.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/29/00
Posts: 8,157
Loc: Cologne, Germany
Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Swami]
    #624267 - 05/01/02 06:05 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

what LF is trying to say, is that he believes in god not because of the myths that were handed down, but because of his own experience with him...
and it is not hard for us believers to understand that you dont simply buy that handed down myths, because for you these stories are just that: MYTHS... but for us they are no myths anymore, they are plain and simple truth... and i have to confess that i once was where you were (thats why i understand), but my experience taught me... because i chose to experience what i did... but your choice is different, you chose not to experience god, and therefore you never will, until you change your mind about the subject... none of us will ever be able to give you the "proof" you want, and to be honest i dont actually want to do that... you can only do it for yourself, but you don?t want to (i cannot stress this enough)...
you on the other hand are trying to push your beliefs (or non beliefs in this case) on us, telling us how stupid our myths are, and how caught up in fantasy we are... but you wont be able to do it, cuz our experience beats any word anyone can ever say...


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: In(di)go]
    #624285 - 05/01/02 06:47 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

first, id like to add that belief does not come from culture, it comes fro the heart.
That is not even remotely true. Morals and religion are handed down from generation to generation. Very few stray from the pack and it takes tremendous external input to affect any change.

remember
Huh?

there is no such thing as a coincidence
According to you. This is another one of those New Age concepts that is meaningless and impossible to demonstrate.

..ain't a coincidence either...
The power of redundancy...



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: In(di)go]
    #624308 - 05/01/02 07:15 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

what LF is trying to say...
Say your own piece. He is capable of speaking his mind without an interpreter.

they are plain and simple truth...
Obviously not at all plain, else we would be living in a war and violence-free paradise.

...and i have to confess that i once was where you were (thats why i understand),
You know next to nothing about me. So now you believe in aliens?

but my experience taught me... because i chose to experience what i did... but your choice is different,
I am glad you found your purpose.

...you chose not to experience god,
So if I bow down to a bank window with a splotch that 10,000 believers worship as the Virgin Mary, then I too, will encompass the divine?

...none of us will ever be able to give you the "proof" you want...
Perhaps because there is no substance to your belief? Refer to Swami quote # 2...

and to be honest i dont actually want to do that...
You just said that you can't, so that is pointless.

you can only do it for yourself, but you don?t want to (i cannot stress this enough)...
Oh, plenty of people are capable of self-delusion, I do just not happen to be one of them. Stress away all you want, I have seen the results of fanatics wanting to believe. It is not a pretty sight. (Gee, look at the Middle East God-loving factions tearing each other's eyes out.)

you on the other hand are trying to push your beliefs (or non beliefs in this case) on us,
Seems reading comprehension errors, selective memory and fabrication are the hallmark of believers. I push nothing. I tell no one what to believe. When people make claims that they say are repeatable I ask for a demonstration. Power in prayer? Show me. Telekinesis? Show me. Asking is not pushing.

but you wont be able to do it, cuz our experience beats any word anyone can ever say...
I don't doubt the tenacity of deeply held beliefs. That tells me of the person and not the belief.

Lozt, let me make this simple (and this is the 20th time that I have asked) with nary an answer. If having God in your life makes it better, why do believers have almost exactly the same rate of alcoholism, divorce, suicide, child/spousal beating, drug addiction, obesity, mortality (throw in any other measurement you want) as atheists and agnostics? (Please don't point to small isolated cultures like the Amish.)

Forget analysing me. You know I will not accept a dance-around answer. And most of, please spare me the: "We are still human." bullshit excuse.

If one eats right and works out, they will have a superior body. End of story. If one taps into cosmic power, they will have a better life. End of story. But they don't. Why not?



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSofaJesus
journeyman
Registered: 03/04/02
Posts: 69
Last seen: 21 years, 13 days
Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Swami]
    #624335 - 05/01/02 08:06 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

Look, I think we just need to get to the point here.....


YOU EAT YOUR BREAD BUTTER SIDE UP

......anyone who doesnt is just crazy and we should go to war with them.....



--------------------
"...and to the left where up is down now stand a zebra made of shapes of me and silver and the sun so bring no guilt with you up above the flatline let's just hit the sky exploding into one." [ HUM ]

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Learyfan]
    #624346 - 05/01/02 08:13 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

:heart:LOVE :sun:LIGHT String cheese

and awaaaaaaaaaaaay I go 

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineJPAtanat
member
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 101
Last seen: 21 years, 6 months
Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Swami]
    #624350 - 05/01/02 08:16 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

f

Edited by JPAtanat (05/01/02 08:20 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineJPAtanat
member
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 101
Last seen: 21 years, 6 months
Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Swami]
    #624352 - 05/01/02 08:17 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

"there is no such thing as a coincidence" lost soulz
"According to you. This is another one of those New Age concepts that is meaningless and impossible to demonstrate." swami

Actually, this seems to me like the operating belief that science is tirelessly trying to demostrate.



Peace.

Edited by JPAtanat (05/01/02 09:09 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineJPAtanat
member
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 101
Last seen: 21 years, 6 months
Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: JPAtanat]
    #624372 - 05/01/02 08:51 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

But what I really want to know is:

"I think that maybe the difference between believers and non-believers is that non-believers want to figure themselves out in terms of the world around them, and with believers it is the other way around. I think it was evolving who had a rather eloquent post earlier about attempting to discover the rules that this universe operates on. Whereas I am not interested in the rules that the universe operates on, I am interested in the rules that my kernel of consciousness (soul/life-force) operates on, since that seems to be the fundamental ground of my being."

What do people think about this idea? I posted it earlier, but no one replied (except lost soulz, but i didn't really understand what he was trying to say). So, if you have any thoughts, I'd love to hear them.


Peace.

Edited by JPAtanat (05/01/02 08:53 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDanimal
journeyman
Registered: 04/12/02
Posts: 76
Last seen: 21 years, 4 months
Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: JPAtanat]
    #624379 - 05/01/02 08:58 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

JPAanat:
Dare I say the most cursed phrase on this board, but...Do you have any proof showing that everything has it's own purpose and there are no coincidences. Seeing as you can't possibly dissect every coincident in the world, how about; do you have any references, logical(?) explanations, attempted experiments by yourself or others? I am not asking you this to be a snob and secretly hoping that you fail to produce anything. Instead, I have quickly grown tired of posts that contain a lot of words but say very little.

Peace folks.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineJPAtanat
member
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 101
Last seen: 21 years, 6 months
Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Danimal]
    #624385 - 05/01/02 09:07 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

either you misunderstood my post, or I misunderstood your post, but I was actually replying to Swami, who was responding to the phrase "there's no such thing as a coincidence" which was i believe originally made by lost soulz.
i am sorry if it was unclear, and im sorry if i totally misunderstood your response.

Peace.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: JPAtanat]
    #624583 - 05/02/02 02:21 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

JPAtanat:

in response to your post,

I think that both believers and non believers understand the world in terms of themselves. Non believers think that logic is a fundamental truth of the universe. But it is only a fundamental truth of our way of thinking. It cannot reveal truth beyond ourselves.
I make no distinction between the rules of the universe and the rules of my consciousness. When we think we are studying the universe, we are actually studying our perception of the universe. The true universe will remain forever hidden from us. Both believer and skeptic only have perceptions to go by. We are all on the same boat.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineJohnny Prophet
Stranger
Registered: 04/15/00
Posts: 16
Last seen: 21 years, 11 months
Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: JPAtanat]
    #624611 - 05/02/02 03:19 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

If you derive pleasure from being logical, proving believers wrong and such, then there is nothing wrong with being a non-believer. However, if there were someone who didn't derive pleasure from being logical, but instead found joy in faith, wouldn't it be logical for them to be faithful? I think a lot of logical people would agree that we are all just matter that is arranged in such a way as to have desires, and then try and satisfy those desires. Some of us happen to be arranged so that we desire something unexplainable to believe in and then we satisfy that need with belief. In this way, faith seems to be a completely logical consequence of the starting conditions, so what is there to argue about?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: ]
    #624628 - 05/02/02 04:06 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

I too, believe in string cheese. Gimme a chunk of that skim-milk Mozzarella.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineNomad
Mad Robot

Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 16 years, 4 months
Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Learyfan]
    #624637 - 05/02/02 04:20 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

Hi, everyone. I'm Nomad.

Essentially, we are all believers. Not believing in anything is what makes you a Buddha. So, assuming that none of us is enlightened, and that, with this in mind, it is pretty useless to pretend being enlightened, we might as well do what unenlightened people normally do, that is, kick the unity and divide the universe into parts. But since we are going to do so anyway, we might as well choose distinctions that make sense. Here's a suggestion:

There are two kinds of people:

Person (1) believes in order to achieve effects.
Person (2) believes, and considers belief as an end in itself.

And here are some examples. (I'm going to give examples which I consider at least marginally interesting, not those which are painfully obvious.)

Someone believes in aliens, because this belief makes life more interesting for him. That's Person (1).

Someone believes in the christian God, in order to avoid burning in hell for the next zillion years. That's Person (2).

Someone believes in reincarnation, in order to overcome his fear of death. That's Person (1).

Someone believes in newtonian physics, because he feels that this is how the universe "really is". That's Person (2).


nomad

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIn(di)go
People of the sun.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/29/00
Posts: 8,157
Loc: Cologne, Germany
Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Swami]
    #624657 - 05/02/02 05:23 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

Lozt, let me make this simple (and this is the 20th time that I have asked) with nary an answer. If having God in your life makes it better, why do believers have almost exactly the same rate of alcoholism, divorce, suicide, child/spousal beating, drug addiction, obesity, mortality (throw in any other measurement you want) as atheists and agnostics? (Please don't point to small isolated cultures like the Amish.)



thats because you?re looking at the wrong kind of believers... and thats a prejudice... the moment you hear that word, an image pops up in your mind... the image of a religious person...
and well, those people you talk about are religious... and ill try and explain why they behave the way they do... they are beeing slaves of a system... they are trying to grasp with their mind what can only be comprehended and embraced with the heart... they are beeing told a million different things, and all contradict each other... and whats worse, they even believe blindly in them... but most of those believers haven?t found the real light... they believe out of culture... they believe cuz they are told so (in that case you my friend are more evolved, cuz you question the system), because they think they are doing right... but they aren?t even able to grasp the basical idea of it... WE ARE ALL ONE... there are many religious people i know, who have become better persons since joining faith... organized faith... and altough i dont agree with everything they say, i find they are great human beeings...
in my case, on the other hand... no one told me what to believe... i am not part of any organized religion... i believe what i believe, cuz my experience taught me so... and i will state (i know learyfan is gonna agree with me on this) my life has become better since i believe... and i have become a better person... i stopped beeing an ass to people... i stopped always thinking about myself... i stopped judging people... and well, im not perfect... but i dont have to be in order to be a children of Life...

In reply to:

...you chose not to experience god,
So if I bow down to a bank window with a splotch that 10,000 believers worship as the Virgin Mary, then I too, will encompass the divine?



man besides of beeing close minded you also have a weak sense of humor... i never told you to follow the myths... to do what most believers do... to be one of the mass... i told you to get your own experiences... and the only way to do that is to find your inner light... go inside, not outside... couse that is where your gonna find the source of all...



--------------------

Edited by Lozt Soul (05/02/02 05:25 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIn(di)go
People of the sun.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/29/00
Posts: 8,157
Loc: Cologne, Germany
Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Swami]
    #624663 - 05/02/02 05:43 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

Seems reading comprehension errors, selective memory and fabrication are the hallmark of believers. I push nothing. I tell no one what to believe. When people make claims that they say are repeatable I ask for a demonstration. Power in prayer? Show me. Telekinesis? Show me. Asking is not pushing.



as i (and i bet a dozen other people) said bout a million times, the proof you need youll only find if you look for it yourself... and well, you say you?re not pushing... then what is the purpose of all your posts? you try to destroy and turn around every word we post... your not asking for proof, you are trying to destroy our faith, otherwise you wouldnt be so bitchy about any subject you dont believe in... and i know we?re wasting the time on you with this, but actually all these posts are not for you my friend, but for other more openminded persons who are able to lead an actual discussion... and its the same the other way round... you are wating your time, you will never take our faith from us, the only difference is, your offensive posts are made directly towards us... but well...

In reply to:

I don't doubt the tenacity of deeply held beliefs. That tells me of the person and not the belief.



well in my case it tells you about the belief... cuz i don?t believe it anymore, i KNOW it... it?s FACT for me... as much a fact as gravity... i know ill probably be flamed for this, but if i were you id check on it, and ask myself whats about all this stuff that can make me so convinced...


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: In(di)go]
    #624671 - 05/02/02 06:03 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

thats because you?re looking at the wrong kind of believers... and thats a prejudice...
And how does one determine the "right" kind of believer as a role model?

i stopped beeing an ass to people... i stopped judging people
Sounds good.

...Man besides of beeing close minded ...
Apparently your previous statement was hyprocritical bullshit as here you are making a judgement, and an erroneous one at that.

So if I bow down to a bank window with a splotch that 10,000 believers worship as the Virgin Mary, then I too, will encompass the divine?
you also have a weak sense of humor...
*Sigh* More judgement. Some people find me very funny. Perhaps it is your sense of humor that is lacking. The really funny part is that I did NOT make this up.

i believe what i believe, cuz my experience taught me so...
As did the 10,000 people previously mentioned. My point being that experience is subject to erroneous interpretation. These people, however wacky they seem from the swami point of view, were very sincere in their faith and quite certain of the authenticity of the experience.

Do you NOT get what I am saying here?

there are many religious people i know, who have become better persons since joining faith...
And just as many who have not, else the major religions would not clash in war, nor would priests molest little boys... Thus your personal anecdote means nothing to me.

i told you to get your own experiences...
And my experiences have not pointed to any divine connection. Meditation, philosophical and religious study, vegetarianism, volunteer work, yoga, psychedelics, work, sports, relationships, travel, music - none have given me a taste of cosmic oneness.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: In(di)go]
    #624676 - 05/02/02 06:16 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

i stopped beeing an ass to people... i stopped judging people
Sounds good.

Forget analyzing me.
I knew that you could not do it. This is so typical! Here it comes:

...Man besides of beeing close minded ...
Apparently your first statement was hyprocrititcal bullshit as here you are making a judgement, and an erroneous one at that. Stick to my statements and forget analyzing me!

So if I bow down to a bank window with a splotch that 10,000 believers worship as the Virgin Mary, then I too, will encompass the divine?

you also have a weak sense of humor...
*Sigh* More judgement. Some people find me very funny. Perhaps it is your sense of humor that is lacking. The really funny part is that I did NOT make this up.

i believe what i believe, cuz my experience taught me so...
As did the 10,000 people previously mentioned. My point being that experience is subject to erroneous interpretation. These people, however wacky they seem from the swami point of view, were very sincere in their faith and quite certain of the authenticity of the experience.

Do you NOT get what I am saying here?

there are many religious people i know, who have become better persons since joining faith...
And just as many who have not, else the major religions would not clash in war, nor would priests molest little boys...

i told you to get your own experiences...
And my experiences have not pointed to any divine connection. Meditation, study, vegetarianism, volunteer work, yoga, psychedelics, work, sports relationships - none have given me a taste of cosmic oneness.




--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineWeirdShroomer
journeyman
Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 78
Loc: Sebia
Last seen: 21 years, 11 months
Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Learyfan]
    #624691 - 05/02/02 07:19 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

What's the main problem here?
All skeptics believe ( oh sorry I know you hate that word ) in same thing, and believers believe in so many different things?
Can anybody define believers?
Believers can be non religious people. Many people here are not part of big religious dogmas/organizations, ( Christians, Muslims etc)
Many people here are not fanatics ( or I have reading problem )
What's wrong?
"Skeptics" cannot win, "believers" cannot win....so what's big deal?
Do you care if someone don't believe in same things you do?
Do you want to change that person?
Why you want to change that person?
Did CACA convert anyone?
Are you frustrated?
Why?
What is the point of all this?
Why you come on shroomery?
Why this forum is called "spirituality and philosophy" ?
Why do you care?
Just some questions that are in my head right now.




--------------------
----weird-----
Smoking dynamite can seriously blow your mind

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: WeirdShroomer]
    #624739 - 05/02/02 08:48 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

Note that I've addressed EVERY line.

What's the main problem here?"

Reading comprehension, close-mindedness towards critical thinking, inconsistent debate practice...

All skeptics believe ( oh sorry I know you hate that word ) in same thing, and believers believe in so many different things?

That's just not true. And you are still not understanding that skepticism is not a philosophy that is lived by... it is a philosophy practiced to filter out the garbage (sorry if your ideas ended up on the curb).


Can anybody define believers?

In this case, those who blindly cling to some cultural relic (or some happy new cultural trash) and never stop to REALLY analyze WHY they believe in such erroneous ideas.

Believers can be non religious people.

No argument here.

Many people here are not part of big religious dogmas/organizations, (Christians, Muslims etc)
Many people here are not fanatics (or I have reading problem)

Slight prob: I've seen much unsupported dogmatism in here (you don't have to subscribe to any religion to be a dogmatist)... I consider ANY dogmatist to be a fanatic. And the "Many" and "here" are effectively ambiguous...

What's wrong?

I don't even see the logical progression in asking this question right after those two statements (?).


"Skeptics" cannot win, "believers" cannot win....so what's big deal?

Loaded question (see "lack of critical thinking" above)

Do you care if someone don't believe in same things you do?

If enough people end up believing in garbage (I don't care if it's a millenia from now)... YES, I do.

Do you want to change that person?

No, I want them to change themselves.

Why you want to change that person?

Loaded question... but see two answers above.

Did CACA convert anyone?

What does this have to do with anything?

Are you frustrated?
Why?


Although you are directing this to Swami (I think), I think I answered this in another thread ("No such thing as a skeptic").

What is the point of all this?

Ambiguous... but I figure you mean the point of all this arguing.
Well, to find new ideas that are well grounded. Maybe these ideas could help the world at large. That is, if they aren't crap.

Why you come on shroomery?

See previous answer.

Why this forum is called "spirituality and philosophy" ?

"For discussion of the spirituality surrounding mushrooms and our everyday lives."
It doesn't mention aliens...

Why do you care?

More ambiguity... I think you mean "why do I bother posting here?".
In that case, see the answer to your question "What is the point of all this?"

Just some questions that are in my head right now.

I have nothing to say to this, but I wanted to be sure to not leave ANY line out.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineWeirdShroomer
journeyman
Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 78
Loc: Sebia
Last seen: 21 years, 11 months
Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Sclorch]
    #624787 - 05/02/02 09:53 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

Reading comprehension, close-mindedness towards critical thinking, inconsistent debate practice... -------------------good one
Now, are this only believers problems or problems of both sides?

"All skeptics believe ( oh sorry I know you hate that word ) in same thing, and believers believe in so many different things?

That's just not true. And you are still not understanding that skepticism is not a philosophy that is lived by... it is a philosophy practiced to filter out the garbage (sorry if your ideas ended up on the curb). "
------------hmmm you see sign ? ...so that make this one a question not statement

... I consider ANY dogmatist to be a fanatic
------------And what if person expirience something and believe in his/her experience -----is he/she still dogmatist?

What's wrong?
I don't even see the logical progression in asking this question right after those two statements (?).
--------yes, no logical progression, do you see logical progresion on this forum?


Do you care if someone don't believe in same things you do?

If enough people end up believing in garbage (I don't care if it's a millenia from now)... YES, I do.
But WHY?

Do you want to change that person?
No, I want them to change themselves.
------------------------------------
Or its maybe you want to make them change?
--------------What if they dont want to be changed or they want/need some time to change? I dont say I dont want to change I just ask.

Did CACA convert anyone?
What does this have to do with anything?
---------------well, he KNOW the truth, so he wanted to help, after that he just .....vanish
Why do you think you can make change better then him?

Are you frustrated?
Why?

Although you are directing this to Swami (I think), I think I answered this in another thread ("No such thing as a skeptic").
----------not to Swami ( I direct this to all, believers and skeptics )


What is the point of all this?
Ambiguous... but I figure you mean the point of all this arguing.
Well, to find new ideas that are well grounded. Maybe these ideas could help the world at large. That is, if they aren't crap.
-----------------------------------Who is one who decide that idea is crap or not?

Why do you care?

More ambiguity... I think you mean "why do I bother posting here?".
In that case, see the answer to your question "What is the point of all this?"
-------------------------lol

Thanks for good reply.
Now some believers.......I want to see their opinion



--------------------
----weird-----
Smoking dynamite can seriously blow your mind

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: infidelGOD]
    #624791 - 05/02/02 09:56 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

infidelGOD, you stated "Non believers think that logic is a fundamental truth of the universe."

This seems to be a widely held misconception among those who don't understand logic and those who refuse to use rational thought when it threatens their beliefs. Logic is not a fundamental truth, logic is not a belief system, it is merely a methodology used to help determine the validity of ideas. Why is this concept so hard to grasp?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefrogsheath
Stranger
Registered: 02/18/02
Posts: 915
Loc: Chicago, Illinois U.S.A.
Last seen: 8 years, 10 months
Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Sclorch]
    #624795 - 05/02/02 10:03 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

Sclorch, I agree with you. I think logic is a necessary evil (I say evil to appease 'the believers'' apparent disapproval of the concept). We all use it (logic) here, like it or not. I don't take it personally if you use it more than I do, or even better than I do. I just appreciate the fact that you keep the inquiry lively so I am challenged to prove a given theory (using logic of course). It's just a tool. It obviously doesn't work for everything but it's what we have to work with. Rational skeptics are good to have around too. You, Swami, evolving, and others challenge the deluge of ideas which keeps the quality higher. I see nothing wrong with this. I can still believe -as I do -that in the end the best answers are to be found in the irrational and the illogical. Right?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Virgin Mary sighting [Re: WeirdShroomer]
    #624804 - 05/02/02 10:29 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

------------And what if person expirience something and believe in his/her experience -----is he/she still dogmatist?
It is not the believing in the experience, but in the unwavering interpretation. see my previous comment about the Virgin Mary sighting.

I saw (externally) what everyone else saw: A vague discoloration on a bank glass window.



From the Tampa Tribune 1997: Analysts believe the colorful streaks were created by mineral deposits left behind by spray from nearby water sprinklers. The image was first noticed after palm trees in from of the windows in question had been cut down, and the palm leaves brushing against the glass probably helped shape the stain. This explanation has not deterred an estimated 1.5 million sightseers from flocking to the building.

All of these people had a real experience, but from this discoloration their dogma led them to believe that it was a picture of:
A. A woman.
B. Her name was Mary.
C. She was a virgin.
D. This coloration had some significant religious meaning.

I could gather no such data from studying the blotch as my perception (in this case) was uncolored (no pun intended) by dogma.

Rather than believer/skeptic; I prefer the terminology of critical/non-critical thinker. Do you at least now understand somewhat my perspective?

What is YOUR interpretation on the glass?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSofaJesus
journeyman
Registered: 03/04/02
Posts: 69
Last seen: 21 years, 13 days
Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Sclorch]
    #624810 - 05/02/02 10:47 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

Sclorch you answered this question-Can anybody define believers?

with--

In this case, those who blindly cling to some cultural relic (or some happy new cultural trash) and never stop to REALLY analyze WHY they believe in such erroneous ideas. Don?t you see the problem with this answer?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Because you have versed yourself in logic and have come to the conclusion that things like alien interaction is utter crap does not prove you are making the correct judgment.

SURE I UNDERSTAND --- you want someone to give you good hard evidence. There isn?t anything wrong with that ? I just think if a textbook with all the truths and answers is laid out before me then I will never have to take any chances on my own accord.

You may also assume that I am some sort of alien-loving - new age mystic mumbo jumbo believer. But I am not. I try to look at all sides. Including yours.

My hardest challenge in life is trying to fight for the middle ground ?because it?s not a fight when you admire all ideas. And I am not throwing logic away I simple ask myself if I should believe in something at all (for me that statement contains the fact that I ?believe? in everything). Like you Sclorch, I won?t cut my nuts off if some white haired old guy told me a comet was an alien space craft coming to save me? However that doesn?t mean that no alien spacecrafts have ever entered our atmosphere.

It?s easy to toss out someone?s believe in alien encounters and such ?but apparently you?ll never throw away logic?I don?t literally mean throwing away logic either

? I like the quote ?kill the Buddha? a lot myself??




--------------------
"...and to the left where up is down now stand a zebra made of shapes of me and silver and the sun so bring no guilt with you up above the flatline let's just hit the sky exploding into one." [ HUM ]

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineJPAtanat
member
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 101
Last seen: 21 years, 6 months
Re: Virgin Mary sighting [Re: Swami]
    #624820 - 05/02/02 11:05 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

I find myself aligned with the "believers" although I consider myself a critical thinker. I get the feeling that the skeptics on this board draw conclusions about the way I think due to the fact that I argue on the believer side. But when it comes to aliens and the "paranormal" I am probably just as skeptical as you [skeptics].


My main question is: Is a deeper truth reserved for those who are very well read, have large vocabularies, and a linguistic affinity (<---best i could think of)?
I would contend that that is not the case. And it seems like the skeptics here reject anyone who cannot substantiate their view with a bullet-proof argument and facts etc. (<---you probably laugh - "of course we do!") Well, I believe that people can have completely valid spiritual revelations and philosophical ideas that are not easy to articulate and not easy to defend on logical terms - but to me that does not make them invalid.



Peace.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Virgin Mary sighting [Re: JPAtanat]
    #624833 - 05/02/02 11:25 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

Come on JP. Virgin Mary or discolored glass? Here is a real-world example and no one wants to touch it.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineWeirdShroomer
journeyman
Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 78
Loc: Sebia
Last seen: 21 years, 11 months
Re: Virgin Mary sighting [Re: Swami]
    #624843 - 05/02/02 11:41 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

My interpretation?

A. A woman.
B. Her name was Mary.
C. She was a virgin.
D. This coloration had some significant religious meaning.
E. Its just mineral deposit left behind by spray from nearby water sprinklers, and the palm helped shape the stain. ( and the light give it a "psychedelic" look )

I pick E from very simple reasons.
First I don't believe in bible or the stories in that book.
Second I had Physics in school.

"Rather than believer/skeptic; I prefer the terminology of critical/non-critical thinker. Do you at least now understand somewhat my perspective?"

But if someone post non-critical idea, did he deserve bashing?
This is not pun......my English is very poor and I have a lot of problems expressing my thoughts.....
Why don't post critical opinion?
I just feel that things started to go in circles.
Most people take posts so personally, even when is not personal.
The more opinions we have the better is. At least that's my opinion.


To completely understand your perspective I should become you...or at least spend a long time with you and vice versa

But I think I understand somewhat of your perspective, do you understand my?


--------------------
----weird-----
Smoking dynamite can seriously blow your mind

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineJPAtanat
member
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 101
Last seen: 21 years, 6 months
Re: Virgin Mary sighting [Re: Swami]
    #624924 - 05/02/02 01:31 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

Discolored glass.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Virgin Mary sighting [Re: JPAtanat]
    #624933 - 05/02/02 01:41 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

Discolored glass.
Fine, but what then of your quote below:

And it seems like the skeptics here reject anyone who cannot substantiate their view with a bullet-proof argument and facts etc. (<---you probably laugh - "of course we do!") Well, I believe that people can have completely valid spiritual revelations and philosophical ideas that are not easy to articulate and not easy to defend on logical terms - but to me that does not make them invalid.

Many of those 1.5 million visitors believe that they have had a completely valid spiritual revelation, yet you reject that notion. Is their stance laughable?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineJPAtanat
member
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 101
Last seen: 21 years, 6 months
Re: Virgin Mary sighting [Re: WeirdShroomer]
    #624934 - 05/02/02 01:43 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

"The more opinions we have the better is. At least that's my opinion."
My opinion: I totally disagree. All of the opinions we hold should be thoroughly investigated, and thrown out unless they are absolutely necessary - a housecleaning of the mind. Take everything out, and then bring back in only what is totally useful. Opinions we should keep are those that are based on a thorough understanding born of experience, not ones that come from thought (be it logical or illogical).
However, this does not mean that I think that we have to verify everything scinetifically. I just think that in our society we feel like we have to have an opinion on everything in order to be an individual. We our judged by our ideas, and therefore our self-image is created by them. We would probably consider someone who answered all questios "im not sure" as dull stupid, or naive, even though that person might have a better understanding. "True knowledhe lies in knowing that you know nothing." socrates. (or refer to evolvings quote by richard whately)


Peace.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineJPAtanat
member
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 101
Last seen: 21 years, 6 months
Re: Virgin Mary sighting [Re: Swami]
    #624937 - 05/02/02 01:48 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

To me, discolored glass. To them, it was, very clearly, the Virgin Mary herself.
I do not reject the notion that they had a completely valid spiritual revelation. I do not believe they did, nor do I disbelieve.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineWeirdShroomer
journeyman
Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 78
Loc: Sebia
Last seen: 21 years, 11 months
Re: Virgin Mary sighting [Re: JPAtanat]
    #625010 - 05/02/02 03:19 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

You actually ageed with me. But I dont want to houseclean your mind. I want to houseclean my. I want to learn new things, so speak,. All life is learning. To see how you see.
Im believer ( not in god, to me god is infinity, all thing,one....not person )
But I believe in what I see or experience (my personal universum) .
That IS NOT Mary whatever you think.
I dont say that their feeling was wrong....we have power iside ..that just provoke feel
Im wery stoned right now.



--------------------
----weird-----
Smoking dynamite can seriously blow your mind

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Virgin Mary sighting [Re: WeirdShroomer]
    #625038 - 05/02/02 04:08 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

There we go...

This is all I wanted- CRITICAL THINKING.
Not thinking critically does not mean necessarily that you are wrong... it just means that you need to polish your thoughts a little more. Believe me, it will help you. I even see a difference in this thread... posts seem much more consistent and level-headed.

Keep it up and you won't ever hear me bitch again (unless it's at someone else).


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIn(di)go
People of the sun.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/29/00
Posts: 8,157
Loc: Cologne, Germany
Re: Virgin Mary sighting [Re: Sclorch]
    #625063 - 05/02/02 04:31 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

lol...
sclorch... what exactly are you? what exactly are you doing here? sitting there pointing your finger at people, pretending you are the all knowing, all intelligent... now you even talk like we are supposed to change our mind and our ways of thinking in order to please you, so that we wont hear you bitch again... i for myself will be very glad to hear you bitch, as long as that means that i am feeling and beeing, not just thinking and becoming a slave of my mind...


--------------------

Edited by Lozt Soul (05/02/02 04:33 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Virgin Mary sighting [Re: JPAtanat]
    #625217 - 05/02/02 08:03 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

I do not reject the notion that they had a completely valid spiritual revelation.
I am not afraid to take a stand. I find it totally ludicrous and very dangerous. This hearkens back to the primitives cringing at the sight of a comet. It was NOT an omen nor a sign from God. There was no message. This merely displays ignorance and superstition.

I do not believe they did, nor do I disbelieve.
Very wishy-washy. There is a line in the Bible about being lukewarm...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Virgin Mary sighting [Re: Swami]
    #625244 - 05/02/02 08:36 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

Shroomism thinks this thread is like the War on Drugs.

Both sides think they are right, and no one will back down until something changes.

One side is just trying to chill and have their alleged revelations in consciousness, and the other side is telling them that their revelations are only hurting themselves and others.

My opinion (Even though it has been said millions of times): Let the spiritualists have their "crazy illogical" conversations, and leave them alone. They are not hurting anyone. If they go crazy and kill themselves because of their beliefs than that is their problem. The self acclaimed "logical thinkers" are not going to save anyone from disallusioning themselves. As long as you attack their beliefs and way of thinking, they will defend. No more attacking.. no more defending.. see?

Sure, you may think belief is for the weakminded, or that those that dont appear to use your form of logic as inferior or whatever, and you have to do something to make them see the light. Well how far has it gotten you so far? How many people have you converted?

Like the war on drugs, this could all be settled if the party that is trying to gain control would just back off, and let the "victims of drugs", or in this case, beliefs... just chill without fear of being thrown into prison, or in this case, the logical vortex belief shattering device.

In conclusion, just relax and chill out. No one is shoving their beliefs down your throat. Yet I see many of the 'rational thinkers' shoving their brand of logic down our throats. You are not superior to someone if you have beliefs of something, nor if you use logic as your primary means of thinking.

We are all fucking equal.
No one is completely right
Smoke a bowl and go outside..... ooooooh... trees... pretty

PEACE


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Virgin Mary sighting [Re: ]
    #625251 - 05/02/02 08:50 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

Smoke a bowl and go outside..... ooooooh... trees... pretty
now you're talkin'... the moon is pretty too

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Virgin Mary sighting [Re: ]
    #625276 - 05/02/02 09:43 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

Shroomism thinks ...
See Swami quote # 1.

...this thread is like the War on Drugs
One side is just trying to chill and smoke a doobie and the other side is telling them that their drugs are only hurting themselves and others. If they go crazy and imprison others because of their beliefs than that is their problem. As long as you attack their beliefs and way of thinking, they will defend.

Smoke a bowl and go outside..... ooooooh... trees... pretty
I would, but no one stands up to the crazed WOD believers who are shoving their beliefs down my throat.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineJPAtanat
member
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 101
Last seen: 21 years, 6 months
Re: Virgin Mary sighting [Re: Swami]
    #625301 - 05/02/02 10:37 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

Sometimes I am afraid to take a stand. I am afraid of two things: 1. deluding myself 2. harming others because of my delusion.
It seems very possible that the "Maryists" are deluding themselves, and are causing harm to others because of it. I do not wish to add to whatever strife exists by telling them they are ingnorant or superstitious. Deep down inside I agree with you, that it is bullshit, but this view is based on nothing, and is therefore meaningless.Therefore for me to say so would only add negatively to the situation.

I do not think that not believing nor disbelieving is wishy-washy at all. As I mentioned elsewhere, we feel compelled to take a stance on everything, seemingly at the risk that the worldview which we base our selves on is incomplete. I do not think it's necessary. There is a phrase in Buddhism about the middle path. (or see evolvings whately quote)

This is not to say that I condemn social change, or holding an opinion. I just think that both of those thing are very very sensitive issues, although we often do not treat them as such. To be honest, when it comes to christianity, i am not only inexperienced but also uneducated, so I feel like trying to take a stand would be a folly. I think you would agree with me here. For now, all I have is this reaction that those Maryists were wrong - were making something out of nothing. But until I have experience of the situation, to throw my opinion into the mix would be "ludicrous and very dangerous." Or, at very least, unproductive.


Peace.

Edited by JPAtanat (05/03/02 12:02 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Virgin Mary sighting [Re: JPAtanat]
    #625530 - 05/03/02 08:16 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

Fair enough response, especially the part about judging or acting from one's own delusion.

The way that I attempt to look at a phenomenon is to ask myself how would someone who had no personal or cultural filters or history, view it. In the case of the Marian Appearance, those unfamiliar with other such appearances (by which to judge or compare) or Christianity, would NEVER come to such a conclusion. Not one person in 6 billion!

To me, a valid interpretation should stand outside of these biases. An example from my past, was the time that I experienced sleep paralysis. I was frightened and did not know what was going on. So I quickly searched my memory for a point of reference and came up with the idea that there was a ghost in my room. All I had was a feeling of dread and interpolated that into being the spirit of a dead person. This is an amazing hyper-jump of reason. One that in later reflection, I concluded to be an erroneous assumption.

I have seen a mysterious light in the sky and my conclusion is: that I have seen a light in the sky that I was unable to identify. That is all. No more can be said. To conclude anything about it's occupants, purpose or point of origin is ludicrous.

To rephrase one more time, I believe the facts should speak for themselves. I welcome anyone to show me the weakness of this approach.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineJPAtanat
member
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 101
Last seen: 21 years, 6 months
Re: Virgin Mary sighting [Re: Swami]
    #625675 - 05/03/02 12:01 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

I totally agree. However, the problem is that it is often very hard to see our own social-cultural biases. I have chosen meditation as a way to cut through that delusion. I have not even been meditating for a year, but already it has given me some insights, and thus a certain level of trust in the practice. But of course the main insight it has given me is my own ignorance. So I find myself more reluctant to take hard and fast stances.
But anyway, yes, i agree with everything you said.


Peace.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Virgin Mary sighting [Re: JPAtanat]
    #625929 - 05/03/02 05:52 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

Beautiful.. a harmonious interaction between two polar opposites... such progress
:single tear rolls down shroomism's cheek

Heh

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Virgin Mary sighting [Re: ]
    #625946 - 05/03/02 06:16 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

We are (probably) all multi-dimensional. The polar opposition you speak of is really just between certain facets of each individual's being, not the total person.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Virgin Mary sighting [Re: ]
    #625952 - 05/03/02 06:22 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

The Virgin Mary works miracles...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Virgin Mary sighting [Re: ]
    #625966 - 05/03/02 06:43 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

Well how far has it gotten you so far? How many people have you converted?

I wouldn't say converted.. more like INFORMED. I've gotten to at least a dozen or so people (really gotten to them). They'll never think the same again (that's the plan anyways). How many held onto their bullshit? A few more, but I have about a 40% success rate. But the failures are still better off than they were... they just didn't pull through all the way (maybe they will later).

Yet I see many of the 'rational thinkers' shoving their brand of logic down our throats.
There's only one "brand" of logic. The rest are cheap imitations from Kmart.

We are all fucking equal.
No one is completely right


I'm pretty sure it was me who posted that thread on fallibilism awhile back ("heteroabsolutism").

a harmonious interaction between two polar opposites...

We're not really that opposite. It's a false dichotomy.
Like evolving said "The polar opposition you speak of is really just between certain facets of each individual's being, not the total person."


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4  [ show all ]

Shop: PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract   OlympusMyco.com Olympus Myco All-in-One Grow Bags   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Believing
( 1 2 all )
Traveller 2,188 23 10/04/01 05:34 PM
by Swami
* Are Atheists __________? Indeed, they are.
( 1 2 3 4 ... 9 10 all )
World Spirit 13,642 190 12/20/02 08:13 PM
by RebelSteve33
* Are Believers Rational Beings?
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Swami 8,175 60 04/22/02 03:23 AM
by infidelGOD
* I just don't see how people can believe in a god..
( 1 2 3 all )
Cubieman420 3,580 52 12/09/05 05:58 PM
by MushmanTheManic
* Are some people not meant to believe in god?
( 1 2 all )
Anonymous 2,331 31 06/03/03 10:06 AM
by Evolving
* Why believe anything? Swami 1,838 19 09/13/01 08:36 AM
by Phyl
* Do you really believe in a god?
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Makaveli 12,688 64 03/09/01 01:18 PM
by holographic mind
* If God really wants us to believe in him...
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Baby_Hitler 4,792 74 05/06/03 12:35 AM
by Deiymiyan

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
6,936 topic views. 0 members, 3 guests and 1 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Happy 4/20 from The Shroomery!

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.