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Not every end is a goal. The end of a melody is not its goal; but nonetheless, if the melody had not reached its end it would not have reached its goal. A parable.

-Nietzsche

Now here's one. Can God create a rock so heavy "He" cannot lift it? I don't see how this can be answered and keep a good definition of omnipotence.

That's similar to a t-shirt I once saw in a mall in Mississippi. "God can do anything, except FAIL." So help me God, I'm going to be living there for the next 2-3 years of my life starting next fall.
-Mad Hatter

Why would they have to be perfect?

OK, you can go Plato, and argue for the existance of the Ideal, which is by (Platonic) definition Perfect. But why does it follow that God(s) have to be themselves representaitions of Perfection?

After all, if the underlying basis of universal existance is Perfect Ideals, then how is change possible?

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"Were bigger than Jesus Christ right now..."
-John Lennon(1966)

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"My mind dont work if my spine dont jerk"
-Quote from Eminem-

~PanTrop~

Thanks again.

-=Makaveli=-

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Not every end is a goal. The end of a melody is not its goal; but nonetheless, if the melody had not reached its end it would not have reached its goal. A parable.

-Nietzsche

For as long as humanity has existed, it has existed in herds, tribes, peoples, nations, groups, families, churches, etc? and always an irrational obedience to the designated "leader" of which there are always far less than there are followers, therefore humans have basically evolved with the inclination, or desire, to obey. Of course they do not know this, they have come up with the idea of "free will"
they are in fact more like Pavlov's dogs, only much more complex, in that they condition themselves to act, behave, respond in set patterns and reactions based on external events, conditioned through the "sheep blanket" of society.
Humans behave according to Hive authority, they believe in ranks based upon certain standards which arise from the belief that it is direly important to be accepted by their peers, this results from confusing image with actual self, this need for acceptance translates into the need to be "right" and in order to be right you believe others must be wrong (the primitive belief that there is only one right and all else is wrong
humans do not have free will, what is called freedom of the will is the action performed after you "will" yourself to do it.
This original will however is more like a conditioned response, (in nearly every chance for decision, one particular choice will stand out, this one is the ingrained (ingrained since childhood by parents/teachers), conditioned (conditioned by media/peers/society), and inherited (inherited through genes, DNA being shown to form personality and thought patterns) choice, which you will blindly follow-this conditioning along with your instincts all reacting off of each other (these instincts being based on the need for immediate survival- perceptions being based on chemicals which cannot evolve-) form what is called "freedom of the will"

in every act of willing there is, first, a multiplicity of feelings,
namely, the feeling of the condition you are moving away from, and the feeling of the condition you are moving towards
these feelings and also an accompanying muscular sensation, which, even without our putting into motion begins its action by force of habit as soon as we "will" anything.
And just as feelings (and indeed many kinds of feelings) are to be recognized as
ingredients of the will, so, secondly, should thinking, as in every act of the will there is always a commanding thought -
Third, the will is not only a complex of feeling and thinking, but it is above all an emotion, the emotion of command. That which is termed "freedom of the will" is essentially the
emotion of superiority in relation to the one who must obey: "I am free, 'he' must obey" - this consciousness
is in every act of will;
and equally the concentration , fixation on one thing, "now we must have this and nothing else"
and the inward certainty that obedience will follow - A man who wills commands something within himself that renders obedience, or that he believes renders obedience.
When we will we both command and obey, and with obedience comes the feelings of coercion, pressure, oppression, resistance, and agitation which usually begin immediately after the act of will, on the other hand, we are in the habit of ignoring, or overlooking this duality, or division, and to deceive ourselves about it by means of the synthetic concept "I," a whole series of erroneous conclusions, and consequently of false evaluations of the will itself, has become attached to the act of willing - to such a degree that he
who wills believes that willing itself is enough for action.
Since in most cases there has been exercise of the will only when the effect of the command - that is, obedience; that is, the action- was to be expected. Therefore he who wills believes with a fair amount of certainty that will and action are somehow one; he ascribes the success, the carrying out of the willing, to the will itself, and thereby enjoys an increase of the sensation of power which accompanies all success.
and if you agree with my thought loop/formation theory, then "your" thoughts are just the products of your thought processes which have developed through imitation of teacher/parental figure, conditioning you to act in certain ways
when you say "i am thinking" you are implying that thinking is an action
if it is an action then there must be a period where you are not doing it
to say i am thinking means that some of the time you are not thinking
therefore some of the time you are not existing
better to say just simply "thought"
and you are a part of it
one small facet of Thought

now take this need to obey on a much larger scale along with the system of hive authority, and the idea of god arises, the primitive belief system used to explain things. It is based on adherence, and questionless obedience, It is the ultimate controlling device. It spreads easily thanks to herd mentality

the existentialist sets up four ultimate concerns (death, freedom, isolation, and meaninglessness) every human has to come to terms with these four things in one way or another. What happens quite often is someone finds a coping mechanism or way to shove off their anxiety concerning these four things. humans cover up for the anxiety of the meaninglessness of life through rigidly held values, defensive dogma and the like. So the fact that their life has no value or meaning makes them stick their nose in ours, everybody's. It could relate to the anxiety of freedom which can manifest neuroticly as complusive behavior.
What are they most afraid of? meaninglessness,
that all their preciously held beliefs are ultimately without meaning, and they will have died never finding out who they really are or what they could have become.

add to that the theories in exo-psychology of the four survival imprints and circuits of communication
1.cellular well being
2.emotional-hierarchical status
3.artifact manipulation game
4.socio-sexual security; domestic reassurance
and the standard human (existing in a state of neotony- or larval stage-) is not interested in anything which does not fit into one of these, or improve upon them--they are also fearful of anything which does not fit into them, or appears to threaten their previous conceptions of these ideas- and fear leads to objection, which leads to action against these seeming threats

All larval interactions are instrumental to one of these four
survival attitudes. Larvals are comfortably adapted to this limited
four-channel communication, scan automatically for the survival
meaning of each stimulus and scuttle by each other like ants, each
intent on Hir own "reality" - reacting automatically to relevant cues
from others.

Larval communication occurs in terms of four systems, some
of which are comprehensible to the entire species, some of which
are limited to members of the same cultural-imprint group.
Larvals do not like to receive information unless the facts fit
into their 3rd Circuit reality net and immediately reward their
emotional status. Larvals submit themselves to learn new symbols only under
special motivational circumstances where the new connections
build on and confirm established systems or give promise of future
emotional rewards of which the teacher is model.

Larvals fervently resist new symbols which require a change
in their network of associations. This resistance to learning is not
psychological; it is neurological and biochemical. New ideas require
a change in the wiring of associations and literally cause a
"headache."
In communicating with larvals about sexual, philosophic, or
ethical matters, one enters very dangerous terrain. It is almost
impossible to discuss philosophy with yokels. Hypocrisy,
unconscious motivation, irrational paradox, need for approval and
fear-of-shame dominate every discussion of philosophy-religion.
The reasons for this philosophic phobia:

1. Yokels are ignorant about where life came from,
where it is going and why. They are thus terrified by
their mortality. Each larval has accepted a flimsy
philosophy of life-and-death which SHe does not really
believe. Thus the irritation and panic when this basic
hypocrisy is threatened by a scientific discussion about
life-origin and life destination.

2. Yokels are robot-slaves to DNA. They blindly
labor to perpetuate the species, to breed, to establish
domestic arrangements for rearing young and to
transmit cultural survival patterns. Any discussion
which threatens to expose or question this robothood
is extremely painful. The larval cannot tolerate the
insight into uneasy areas of uncertainty.
however they refuse to accept this and so create a higher meaning to their life, god, in order to make them feel superior

3. Expression and inhibition of sexual behavior is
charged with terror, because orgasm and sperm-egg
transfer must be domesticated to provide for stable
child rearing. Discussing exo-psychology with a yokel is like discussing
sexual experiences with a pre-adolescent. SHe just can't
understand the new reality because Hir neural circuits have not been
turned-on. And SHe may turn you in for philosophic child molesting.

In particular, one must be diplomatic in discussing the future
evolution of the human species. Larval humans naturally believe
that evolution has already reached its highest stage with homo
sapiens!

the herd reacts strongly to anything contrary to herd conditioning, because the herd truly believes these ideas to be their own.

Monotheism is the primitive religion which
centers human consciousness on Hive
Authority. There is One God and His Name is
(substitute Hive-Label). If there is only One
God then there is no choice, no option, no
selection of reality. There is only Submission or
Heresy. The word Islam means "submission." The basic posture of
Christianity is
kneeling. Thy will be done. Monotheism therefore does no harm to
hive-oriented
terrestrials (Stages 10, 11 and 12) who eagerly seek to lay-off responsibility
on some
Big Boss. Monotheism does profound mischief to those who are evolving to
post-hive
stages of reality. Advanced mutants (Stages 13 to 18) do make the
discovery that "All
is One," as the realization dawns that "My Brain creates all the realities that I
experience." The discovery of Self is frightening because the novitiate
possessor of the
Automobile Body and the Automobile Brain must accept all the power that
the hive
religions attributed to the jealous Jehovah.
It is the duty of a monotheist to destroy any competitive heresy. Concepts
such as
devil, hell, guilt, eternal damnation, sin, evil are fabrications by the hive to
insure loyalty
to Hive Central. All these doctrines are precisely designed to intimidate and
crush
Individualism. The process of mutating into Self-hood plunges the mutant
into this cross
fire of neurogenetic moral flak. Most of the freak-outs, bad trips and hellish
experiences are caused by Monotheistic Morality. Again, it must be
emphasized, that
Monotheism is a necessary stage. Monotheism is a technology, a tool, to
bring
pre-civilized tribespeople and caste-segregated primitives into the
collectives necessary
to develop the post-hive, post-terrestrial technologies.

The major evolutionary step is taken when the individual says: "There is only
one
God who creates the universe. This God is my Brain. As the driver of this
Brain I have
created a universe in which there are innumerable other Gods of equal
post-hive
autonomy with whom I seek to interest.

[This message has been edited by The Insect Priest (edited November 24, 1999).]

As for the arguements that the Divine is mearly an intellectual construct...

It's been demonstrated that humans have an ability to process their interaction with energy fields (University of Western Ontario). The scientists doing the research went as far as to label it the "god sense". Probably as a way of deflecting criticism from the Bible thumpers, who saw the whole thing as dismissive of their "faith".

Doesn't change the facts. Humans can perceive phenomena beyond the range of the ordinary senses. And will respond to those perceptions -albeit in culturally conditioned modes. Xtian test subjects tended to "see" the visions from their own religous background. Secular types related stories that sounded like modern UFO encounter experiences.

What all subjects agreed on, was that the nature of these experiences seemed objectively real to them. Touched them in seriously deep ways. Many of the people who participated in the tests were quite shaken after their exposure to the cycled magnetic fields.

Doesn't in of itself prove the existance of the god(s). But it sure raises some interesting questions. Like why we as humans would have this as part of our evolutionary make upmake?

As for the arguements that the Divine is mearly an intellectual construct...

It's been demonstrated that humans have an ability to process their interaction with energy fields (University of Western Ontario). The scientists doing the research went as far as to label it the "god sense". Probably as a way of deflecting criticism from the Bible thumpers, who saw the whole thing as dismissive of their "faith".

Doesn't change the facts. Humans can perceive phenomena beyond the range of the ordinary senses. And will respond to those perceptions -albeit in culturally conditioned modes. Xtian test subjects tended to "see" the visions from their own religous background. Secular types related stories that sounded like modern UFO encounter experiences.

What all subjects agreed on, was that the nature of these experiences seemed objectively real to them. Touched them in seriously deep ways. Many of the people who participated in the tests were quite shaken after their exposure to the cycled magnetic fields.

Doesn't in of itself prove the existance of the god(s). But it sure raises some interesting questions. Like why we as humans would have this as part of our evolutionary make upmake?

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"There is nothing more pragmatic than idealism." -- David Mamet

Why do you think everything happens for a reason? Is it because it makes it easier for one to deal with tragedy if, behind it somewhere, there is a good reason hiding?
The story goes something like this:
"We are limited in our mental abilites and do not have the knowledge, capacity or processor speed to conceive of the entire world in all its complexity. Hence from our limited perspective some things seem plain horrible. However, if we did have this capacity, as God does by definition, we would see that there are good reasons for things that from our point of view seem unreasonable if not downright unpleasant."

This line of reasoning is based on a confusion of the concepts of "subject" and "object". Subjects have experience. What they have experience of is "objects". Where ever there is an "object" there is a "subject" experiencing that object. Where ever there is a "subject" there is an object of its experience. Hence subjects have "point of view". Then comes along this silly notion of "objectivity". (Journalists think they learn it in school) There is just no such thing as an "objective" point of view. All points of view are subjective. Points of view are LIMITED by perspective - thats why their called a "point". There is no point of view that encompasses all others - points are by definition, singular. There is no position, or metaphysic, that can fairly or accuratly include all others. Thats one of the reasons we fight.

If you have read this far you are a creature of patience. Good for you.

Do we maybe look for reason in the world because "reason" is as basic a tool to us as our fancy opposable thumbs? Reason has got us a long way - it is a very powerful thing. This does not, however, mean that it is necessarily a basic element of the universe. That we use reason to cope in the world, and that it works so very well for us, is not a demonstration that the world is a "reasonable" place. In fact it often is not a very reasonable place, thats partly why there are things like religion that try and fill in the gap.

We look for reason in the world because thats what we do. We are creatures of reason (among other things - like passion ). Just because we look for it and perhaps desire, or even need it, does not mean it is there.

I myself do not think there is a "reason" for everything. At one time I very much believed there was. At first a world of accidents and chance seemed a horrible thing. Now I see it as a much more beautiful and mysterious place since I let go of my desire to impose reason and order upon it.

I certainly agree, and I think almost everybody here would too, that we should live life to its fullest. The world is beyond our complete understanding and conception. It would not be such a beautiful and mysterious thing if it wasnt. Let it be free.

peace.

I am also a roman catholic and i think it's against what roman catholics believe do even doubt that there isnt a supreme being. I might not be the most dedicated member of my church but after years of catholic schools i wouldnt even consider doubting that they're is a god. I am sorry that your grandfather died but everything happens for a reason. Everyone knows they'll die its just a question of when. And we shouldnt spend life worrying when that will be, we should live life to it's fullest.

Bascially before time or even matter there was god. Pure energy. there he sat in heaven with his many many angels. Then one day god decides that he wants to know where he came from. So he decides to create matter. He takes a small amount of himself (energy) and creates matter bringing about the existance of time. So there is god. With all of his angels (also called watchers) and life began on earth. The first single celled organisms appeared and life was created. Evoloution took place and as it progressed some of the angels noticed that injustice and suffering was begining to take place. Memnoch was concered with this and brought the concern to god. God just said that this was his creation and it was to be looked at as something beauitful and basically to shut up =)
As evoultion progressed, came along man. Well eventually man evolved a soul. The final step in evoloution. Where matter is converted back to energy! Now after the body dies the soul is left to wander lost confused and suffering in the after life. Memnoch is very upset at this and asks god why he wont let the souls into heaven? so god sends memnoch into the after life and bring back the souls that are worthy to be in heaven. So Memnoch comes back with millions of souls and brings them into heaven but he asks what about all those that are still left lost and confused, suffering, but not yet ready to enter heaven. So god sends memnoch to the place of suffering where it is his job to teach the souls to accept god and to forgive so they can be let into heaven. SO the devil in this book really isnt evil. He is opposed to god but he is not evil. He is the one who brings the souls into heaven, not god. Ahh its wicked!
I truly love this book. There is so much more that I havent explained but if you find this interesting then read it. Its a excellent mind trip.