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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: In(di)go]
    #624676 - 05/02/02 06:16 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

i stopped beeing an ass to people... i stopped judging people
Sounds good.

Forget analyzing me.
I knew that you could not do it. This is so typical! Here it comes:

...Man besides of beeing close minded ...
Apparently your first statement was hyprocrititcal bullshit as here you are making a judgement, and an erroneous one at that. Stick to my statements and forget analyzing me!

So if I bow down to a bank window with a splotch that 10,000 believers worship as the Virgin Mary, then I too, will encompass the divine?

you also have a weak sense of humor...
*Sigh* More judgement. Some people find me very funny. Perhaps it is your sense of humor that is lacking. The really funny part is that I did NOT make this up.

i believe what i believe, cuz my experience taught me so...
As did the 10,000 people previously mentioned. My point being that experience is subject to erroneous interpretation. These people, however wacky they seem from the swami point of view, were very sincere in their faith and quite certain of the authenticity of the experience.

Do you NOT get what I am saying here?

there are many religious people i know, who have become better persons since joining faith...
And just as many who have not, else the major religions would not clash in war, nor would priests molest little boys...

i told you to get your own experiences...
And my experiences have not pointed to any divine connection. Meditation, study, vegetarianism, volunteer work, yoga, psychedelics, work, sports relationships - none have given me a taste of cosmic oneness.




--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineWeirdShroomer
journeyman
Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 78
Loc: Sebia
Last seen: 21 years, 9 months
Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Learyfan]
    #624691 - 05/02/02 07:19 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

What's the main problem here?
All skeptics believe ( oh sorry I know you hate that word ) in same thing, and believers believe in so many different things?
Can anybody define believers?
Believers can be non religious people. Many people here are not part of big religious dogmas/organizations, ( Christians, Muslims etc)
Many people here are not fanatics ( or I have reading problem )
What's wrong?
"Skeptics" cannot win, "believers" cannot win....so what's big deal?
Do you care if someone don't believe in same things you do?
Do you want to change that person?
Why you want to change that person?
Did CACA convert anyone?
Are you frustrated?
Why?
What is the point of all this?
Why you come on shroomery?
Why this forum is called "spirituality and philosophy" ?
Why do you care?
Just some questions that are in my head right now.




--------------------
----weird-----
Smoking dynamite can seriously blow your mind

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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: WeirdShroomer]
    #624739 - 05/02/02 08:48 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Note that I've addressed EVERY line.

What's the main problem here?"

Reading comprehension, close-mindedness towards critical thinking, inconsistent debate practice...

All skeptics believe ( oh sorry I know you hate that word ) in same thing, and believers believe in so many different things?

That's just not true. And you are still not understanding that skepticism is not a philosophy that is lived by... it is a philosophy practiced to filter out the garbage (sorry if your ideas ended up on the curb).


Can anybody define believers?

In this case, those who blindly cling to some cultural relic (or some happy new cultural trash) and never stop to REALLY analyze WHY they believe in such erroneous ideas.

Believers can be non religious people.

No argument here.

Many people here are not part of big religious dogmas/organizations, (Christians, Muslims etc)
Many people here are not fanatics (or I have reading problem)

Slight prob: I've seen much unsupported dogmatism in here (you don't have to subscribe to any religion to be a dogmatist)... I consider ANY dogmatist to be a fanatic. And the "Many" and "here" are effectively ambiguous...

What's wrong?

I don't even see the logical progression in asking this question right after those two statements (?).


"Skeptics" cannot win, "believers" cannot win....so what's big deal?

Loaded question (see "lack of critical thinking" above)

Do you care if someone don't believe in same things you do?

If enough people end up believing in garbage (I don't care if it's a millenia from now)... YES, I do.

Do you want to change that person?

No, I want them to change themselves.

Why you want to change that person?

Loaded question... but see two answers above.

Did CACA convert anyone?

What does this have to do with anything?

Are you frustrated?
Why?


Although you are directing this to Swami (I think), I think I answered this in another thread ("No such thing as a skeptic").

What is the point of all this?

Ambiguous... but I figure you mean the point of all this arguing.
Well, to find new ideas that are well grounded. Maybe these ideas could help the world at large. That is, if they aren't crap.

Why you come on shroomery?

See previous answer.

Why this forum is called "spirituality and philosophy" ?

"For discussion of the spirituality surrounding mushrooms and our everyday lives."
It doesn't mention aliens...

Why do you care?

More ambiguity... I think you mean "why do I bother posting here?".
In that case, see the answer to your question "What is the point of all this?"

Just some questions that are in my head right now.

I have nothing to say to this, but I wanted to be sure to not leave ANY line out.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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OfflineWeirdShroomer
journeyman
Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 78
Loc: Sebia
Last seen: 21 years, 9 months
Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Sclorch]
    #624787 - 05/02/02 09:53 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Reading comprehension, close-mindedness towards critical thinking, inconsistent debate practice... -------------------good one
Now, are this only believers problems or problems of both sides?

"All skeptics believe ( oh sorry I know you hate that word ) in same thing, and believers believe in so many different things?

That's just not true. And you are still not understanding that skepticism is not a philosophy that is lived by... it is a philosophy practiced to filter out the garbage (sorry if your ideas ended up on the curb). "
------------hmmm you see sign ? ...so that make this one a question not statement

... I consider ANY dogmatist to be a fanatic
------------And what if person expirience something and believe in his/her experience -----is he/she still dogmatist?

What's wrong?
I don't even see the logical progression in asking this question right after those two statements (?).
--------yes, no logical progression, do you see logical progresion on this forum?


Do you care if someone don't believe in same things you do?

If enough people end up believing in garbage (I don't care if it's a millenia from now)... YES, I do.
But WHY?

Do you want to change that person?
No, I want them to change themselves.
------------------------------------
Or its maybe you want to make them change?
--------------What if they dont want to be changed or they want/need some time to change? I dont say I dont want to change I just ask.

Did CACA convert anyone?
What does this have to do with anything?
---------------well, he KNOW the truth, so he wanted to help, after that he just .....vanish
Why do you think you can make change better then him?

Are you frustrated?
Why?

Although you are directing this to Swami (I think), I think I answered this in another thread ("No such thing as a skeptic").
----------not to Swami ( I direct this to all, believers and skeptics )


What is the point of all this?
Ambiguous... but I figure you mean the point of all this arguing.
Well, to find new ideas that are well grounded. Maybe these ideas could help the world at large. That is, if they aren't crap.
-----------------------------------Who is one who decide that idea is crap or not?

Why do you care?

More ambiguity... I think you mean "why do I bother posting here?".
In that case, see the answer to your question "What is the point of all this?"
-------------------------lol

Thanks for good reply.
Now some believers.......I want to see their opinion



--------------------
----weird-----
Smoking dynamite can seriously blow your mind

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Anonymous

Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: infidelGOD]
    #624791 - 05/02/02 09:56 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

infidelGOD, you stated "Non believers think that logic is a fundamental truth of the universe."

This seems to be a widely held misconception among those who don't understand logic and those who refuse to use rational thought when it threatens their beliefs. Logic is not a fundamental truth, logic is not a belief system, it is merely a methodology used to help determine the validity of ideas. Why is this concept so hard to grasp?

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Offlinefrogsheath
Stranger
Registered: 02/18/02
Posts: 915
Loc: Chicago, Illinois U.S.A.
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Sclorch]
    #624795 - 05/02/02 10:03 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Sclorch, I agree with you. I think logic is a necessary evil (I say evil to appease 'the believers'' apparent disapproval of the concept). We all use it (logic) here, like it or not. I don't take it personally if you use it more than I do, or even better than I do. I just appreciate the fact that you keep the inquiry lively so I am challenged to prove a given theory (using logic of course). It's just a tool. It obviously doesn't work for everything but it's what we have to work with. Rational skeptics are good to have around too. You, Swami, evolving, and others challenge the deluge of ideas which keeps the quality higher. I see nothing wrong with this. I can still believe -as I do -that in the end the best answers are to be found in the irrational and the illogical. Right?

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Virgin Mary sighting [Re: WeirdShroomer]
    #624804 - 05/02/02 10:29 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

------------And what if person expirience something and believe in his/her experience -----is he/she still dogmatist?
It is not the believing in the experience, but in the unwavering interpretation. see my previous comment about the Virgin Mary sighting.

I saw (externally) what everyone else saw: A vague discoloration on a bank glass window.



From the Tampa Tribune 1997: Analysts believe the colorful streaks were created by mineral deposits left behind by spray from nearby water sprinklers. The image was first noticed after palm trees in from of the windows in question had been cut down, and the palm leaves brushing against the glass probably helped shape the stain. This explanation has not deterred an estimated 1.5 million sightseers from flocking to the building.

All of these people had a real experience, but from this discoloration their dogma led them to believe that it was a picture of:
A. A woman.
B. Her name was Mary.
C. She was a virgin.
D. This coloration had some significant religious meaning.

I could gather no such data from studying the blotch as my perception (in this case) was uncolored (no pun intended) by dogma.

Rather than believer/skeptic; I prefer the terminology of critical/non-critical thinker. Do you at least now understand somewhat my perspective?

What is YOUR interpretation on the glass?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineSofaJesus
journeyman
Registered: 03/04/02
Posts: 69
Last seen: 20 years, 10 months
Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Sclorch]
    #624810 - 05/02/02 10:47 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Sclorch you answered this question-Can anybody define believers?

with--

In this case, those who blindly cling to some cultural relic (or some happy new cultural trash) and never stop to REALLY analyze WHY they believe in such erroneous ideas. Don?t you see the problem with this answer?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Because you have versed yourself in logic and have come to the conclusion that things like alien interaction is utter crap does not prove you are making the correct judgment.

SURE I UNDERSTAND --- you want someone to give you good hard evidence. There isn?t anything wrong with that ? I just think if a textbook with all the truths and answers is laid out before me then I will never have to take any chances on my own accord.

You may also assume that I am some sort of alien-loving - new age mystic mumbo jumbo believer. But I am not. I try to look at all sides. Including yours.

My hardest challenge in life is trying to fight for the middle ground ?because it?s not a fight when you admire all ideas. And I am not throwing logic away I simple ask myself if I should believe in something at all (for me that statement contains the fact that I ?believe? in everything). Like you Sclorch, I won?t cut my nuts off if some white haired old guy told me a comet was an alien space craft coming to save me? However that doesn?t mean that no alien spacecrafts have ever entered our atmosphere.

It?s easy to toss out someone?s believe in alien encounters and such ?but apparently you?ll never throw away logic?I don?t literally mean throwing away logic either

? I like the quote ?kill the Buddha? a lot myself??




--------------------
"...and to the left where up is down now stand a zebra made of shapes of me and silver and the sun so bring no guilt with you up above the flatline let's just hit the sky exploding into one." [ HUM ]

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OfflineJPAtanat
member
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 101
Last seen: 21 years, 4 months
Re: Virgin Mary sighting [Re: Swami]
    #624820 - 05/02/02 11:05 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

I find myself aligned with the "believers" although I consider myself a critical thinker. I get the feeling that the skeptics on this board draw conclusions about the way I think due to the fact that I argue on the believer side. But when it comes to aliens and the "paranormal" I am probably just as skeptical as you [skeptics].


My main question is: Is a deeper truth reserved for those who are very well read, have large vocabularies, and a linguistic affinity (<---best i could think of)?
I would contend that that is not the case. And it seems like the skeptics here reject anyone who cannot substantiate their view with a bullet-proof argument and facts etc. (<---you probably laugh - "of course we do!") Well, I believe that people can have completely valid spiritual revelations and philosophical ideas that are not easy to articulate and not easy to defend on logical terms - but to me that does not make them invalid.



Peace.

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Virgin Mary sighting [Re: JPAtanat]
    #624833 - 05/02/02 11:25 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Come on JP. Virgin Mary or discolored glass? Here is a real-world example and no one wants to touch it.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineWeirdShroomer
journeyman
Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 78
Loc: Sebia
Last seen: 21 years, 9 months
Re: Virgin Mary sighting [Re: Swami]
    #624843 - 05/02/02 11:41 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

My interpretation?

A. A woman.
B. Her name was Mary.
C. She was a virgin.
D. This coloration had some significant religious meaning.
E. Its just mineral deposit left behind by spray from nearby water sprinklers, and the palm helped shape the stain. ( and the light give it a "psychedelic" look )

I pick E from very simple reasons.
First I don't believe in bible or the stories in that book.
Second I had Physics in school.

"Rather than believer/skeptic; I prefer the terminology of critical/non-critical thinker. Do you at least now understand somewhat my perspective?"

But if someone post non-critical idea, did he deserve bashing?
This is not pun......my English is very poor and I have a lot of problems expressing my thoughts.....
Why don't post critical opinion?
I just feel that things started to go in circles.
Most people take posts so personally, even when is not personal.
The more opinions we have the better is. At least that's my opinion.


To completely understand your perspective I should become you...or at least spend a long time with you and vice versa

But I think I understand somewhat of your perspective, do you understand my?


--------------------
----weird-----
Smoking dynamite can seriously blow your mind

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OfflineJPAtanat
member
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 101
Last seen: 21 years, 4 months
Re: Virgin Mary sighting [Re: Swami]
    #624924 - 05/02/02 01:31 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Discolored glass.

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Virgin Mary sighting [Re: JPAtanat]
    #624933 - 05/02/02 01:41 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Discolored glass.
Fine, but what then of your quote below:

And it seems like the skeptics here reject anyone who cannot substantiate their view with a bullet-proof argument and facts etc. (<---you probably laugh - "of course we do!") Well, I believe that people can have completely valid spiritual revelations and philosophical ideas that are not easy to articulate and not easy to defend on logical terms - but to me that does not make them invalid.

Many of those 1.5 million visitors believe that they have had a completely valid spiritual revelation, yet you reject that notion. Is their stance laughable?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineJPAtanat
member
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 101
Last seen: 21 years, 4 months
Re: Virgin Mary sighting [Re: WeirdShroomer]
    #624934 - 05/02/02 01:43 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

"The more opinions we have the better is. At least that's my opinion."
My opinion: I totally disagree. All of the opinions we hold should be thoroughly investigated, and thrown out unless they are absolutely necessary - a housecleaning of the mind. Take everything out, and then bring back in only what is totally useful. Opinions we should keep are those that are based on a thorough understanding born of experience, not ones that come from thought (be it logical or illogical).
However, this does not mean that I think that we have to verify everything scinetifically. I just think that in our society we feel like we have to have an opinion on everything in order to be an individual. We our judged by our ideas, and therefore our self-image is created by them. We would probably consider someone who answered all questios "im not sure" as dull stupid, or naive, even though that person might have a better understanding. "True knowledhe lies in knowing that you know nothing." socrates. (or refer to evolvings quote by richard whately)


Peace.

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OfflineJPAtanat
member
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 101
Last seen: 21 years, 4 months
Re: Virgin Mary sighting [Re: Swami]
    #624937 - 05/02/02 01:48 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

To me, discolored glass. To them, it was, very clearly, the Virgin Mary herself.
I do not reject the notion that they had a completely valid spiritual revelation. I do not believe they did, nor do I disbelieve.

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OfflineWeirdShroomer
journeyman
Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 78
Loc: Sebia
Last seen: 21 years, 9 months
Re: Virgin Mary sighting [Re: JPAtanat]
    #625010 - 05/02/02 03:19 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

You actually ageed with me. But I dont want to houseclean your mind. I want to houseclean my. I want to learn new things, so speak,. All life is learning. To see how you see.
Im believer ( not in god, to me god is infinity, all thing,one....not person )
But I believe in what I see or experience (my personal universum) .
That IS NOT Mary whatever you think.
I dont say that their feeling was wrong....we have power iside ..that just provoke feel
Im wery stoned right now.



--------------------
----weird-----
Smoking dynamite can seriously blow your mind

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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Virgin Mary sighting [Re: WeirdShroomer]
    #625038 - 05/02/02 04:08 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

There we go...

This is all I wanted- CRITICAL THINKING.
Not thinking critically does not mean necessarily that you are wrong... it just means that you need to polish your thoughts a little more. Believe me, it will help you. I even see a difference in this thread... posts seem much more consistent and level-headed.

Keep it up and you won't ever hear me bitch again (unless it's at someone else).


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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InvisibleIn(di)go
People of the sun.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/29/00
Posts: 8,157
Loc: Cologne, Germany
Re: Virgin Mary sighting [Re: Sclorch]
    #625063 - 05/02/02 04:31 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

lol...
sclorch... what exactly are you? what exactly are you doing here? sitting there pointing your finger at people, pretending you are the all knowing, all intelligent... now you even talk like we are supposed to change our mind and our ways of thinking in order to please you, so that we wont hear you bitch again... i for myself will be very glad to hear you bitch, as long as that means that i am feeling and beeing, not just thinking and becoming a slave of my mind...


--------------------

Edited by Lozt Soul (05/02/02 04:33 PM)

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Virgin Mary sighting [Re: JPAtanat]
    #625217 - 05/02/02 08:03 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

I do not reject the notion that they had a completely valid spiritual revelation.
I am not afraid to take a stand. I find it totally ludicrous and very dangerous. This hearkens back to the primitives cringing at the sight of a comet. It was NOT an omen nor a sign from God. There was no message. This merely displays ignorance and superstition.

I do not believe they did, nor do I disbelieve.
Very wishy-washy. There is a line in the Bible about being lukewarm...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Anonymous

Re: Virgin Mary sighting [Re: Swami]
    #625244 - 05/02/02 08:36 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Shroomism thinks this thread is like the War on Drugs.

Both sides think they are right, and no one will back down until something changes.

One side is just trying to chill and have their alleged revelations in consciousness, and the other side is telling them that their revelations are only hurting themselves and others.

My opinion (Even though it has been said millions of times): Let the spiritualists have their "crazy illogical" conversations, and leave them alone. They are not hurting anyone. If they go crazy and kill themselves because of their beliefs than that is their problem. The self acclaimed "logical thinkers" are not going to save anyone from disallusioning themselves. As long as you attack their beliefs and way of thinking, they will defend. No more attacking.. no more defending.. see?

Sure, you may think belief is for the weakminded, or that those that dont appear to use your form of logic as inferior or whatever, and you have to do something to make them see the light. Well how far has it gotten you so far? How many people have you converted?

Like the war on drugs, this could all be settled if the party that is trying to gain control would just back off, and let the "victims of drugs", or in this case, beliefs... just chill without fear of being thrown into prison, or in this case, the logical vortex belief shattering device.

In conclusion, just relax and chill out. No one is shoving their beliefs down your throat. Yet I see many of the 'rational thinkers' shoving their brand of logic down our throats. You are not superior to someone if you have beliefs of something, nor if you use logic as your primary means of thinking.

We are all fucking equal.
No one is completely right
Smoke a bowl and go outside..... ooooooh... trees... pretty

PEACE


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