This has been a question of mine for quite some time now. But first I would like you to know that I am (technically) a Roman Catholic. I was curious if any of you actually, whole heartedly believe in a god, or some supreme being. At this time I am unsure of my beliefs. These questions come to mind when I think if there actually is a god: Why do bad things happen? For example, I had a grandfather whom I was extremely close to, and a few weeks ago, he died. I ask myself, why did this happen, he was a devout follower of Christianity, yet he still died and left many loved ones who were also Catholics? Why? And how can one believe there is an afterlife? Has anyone seen it? Supposedly a place where there is eternal happiness, or a place of endless suffering? I also ask if there is a god, why hasnt he/she actually shown himself/herself in present day? It just doesnt make much sense to me. But to contradict myself somewhat, i then think to myself, where did the universe come from? There had to be nothing, then something. But how could this be? Science can not explain this, nor many other things. Then I also fear that if i dont believe in God that i may actually be condemed on judgement day.

I hope some of you can make some sense of where im coming from.

Thank you.

Ish.

If you believe in a "personal" God that takes an interest in your very own little life, this problem is most hard to deal with. A very good answer is that "evil" and things that hurt us have a place in this world and our spiritual development. It can also be explained that God does not take sides (as is so obviously the case) and very few things are "evil" from all perspectives. For example, to be devoured by wolves is a pretty evil thing for an Elk, but not so evil for the herd in general, and is actually a good thing for the wolves. I beleive it is the same for human morals, and as such I am a moral relativist - a concept that few people understand in the smallest way.

As for your last questiona about judgement day, dont sweat it. I was raised catholic too and went throught this.

Do you think God is a petty immature egotistical baby who is going to torment souls in all eternity because they did not have the right beliefs or follow some silly metaphysical protocol?? No Way!!. Hell and eternal damnation are contsructions of petty power hungry men that invoked the supernatural to help get power over others. Fuck 'em.

I do not know if there is a god in such a sense, or even a heaven, but I have complete faith that the only hell is made by us here on earth. I am willing to risk eternal damnation for my faith, any god that violates the spirit in such a way is no god but a demon and should be opposed. I also tend to believe that Heaven is here to be found on earth as well. If there is a heaven above, I believe that everyone gets in, even the Hitlers.

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The combined symbol for Ernie and Bert.

Casaxus, I'm reminded of The Simpson's episode in which The Flander's house is destroyed by a hurricane. Maude emerges and says "Oh Neddie, I was so scared, I thought I was going to the eternal bliss of paradise."

And FluffyBob's post reminds me of another Simpsons episode where Todd flanders is praying, "...And thank you God, for sending Lisa to save us from the bug you sent"

Bob, can you talk some more on what you mean by moral relativism?(probably another post) Thanks
-Mad Hatter

For me its not merely how could god let such suffering occur in the world but simply I do not really believe in alot of the doctrines of christanity.I don't really like it,the more I read the bible the less I like it.Its just the way I am, now all religion sort of repels me.

Now I am not trying nor will I try to convince you that what I think is right, its right for me and that is it.Its a matter of choice and what you need out of life.Some desire to make that leap of faith and that is very admirable,The only time I do not like it is when those that make that leap of faith say things like they feel sorry for those that do not,or that those of us that choose another path are somehow lacking in something, that I would say is wrong.Its really simple do you desire to make that leap of faith or not?I think it is healthy to question things and you shouldn't keep up the premise of being christian out of fear.You say you are afraid to not believe.Here is what it comes down to, some part of you question all this and that parts questions need some kind of answer.Being afraid to question your faith will not make the questions go away.You have to ask yourself how much do you truly believe and how much do you accept because you were raised that way?

In the end only you can answer these things and only you can choose which way is right.Good luck to you.

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"Were bigger than Jesus Christ right now..."
-John Lennon(1966)

As I see it, the strongest battle of the christian faith is that of belief.

all "evidence" is subjective and can be used to prove either answer ( usually pre-determined in the mind of the asker)

As I have been told, another tenant of most christian faiths is that of free will to choose.

Having an all powerful God tearing about the place and vacationing in a golden city in the sky for all to see would make faith, )and to a lesser extent freedom of choice to beleive or not) irrelevant.

I guess what I am trying to say is that from my light skimming of the subject, is seems that (for the reasons of my previous post), that the christian God would make himself
"unprovable"

Otherwise there would be no faith.

For reasons I can't quite explain (or prove)
I choose to believe in God.

(I have big time problems with most of the
christian church, but that's a whole other post )

Springbok

Well according to Genesis it's man who fucked the whole deal up. Death was a result of man's choice to disobey God.

But that's according to Genesis...

To me, the hand of God could be seen in the sun rising and the sun setting. Just look around. Also, look at the prophecies in the Bible, especially referring to the last days of earth, they all match up perfectly with our modern times.

I really don't know what I belive though.

And I can back that up to. Lovelock's Theory of Gaia has gained considerable acceptance within the scientific community. Because the evidence supports the conclusion. That all life here on the Third Rock should/must be viewed as part of an interconnected super organism, which self regulates itself in order to make the conditions nessecary for life possible.

Not to say that She's some benign, all loving and caring Mother Nature type (out of a modern fairy tale and a margerine commercial). Cause She can also be the Ultimate Bitch. If you cross Her, or pretend She doesn't matter and insist on building your house in a flood/earthquake/avalanche/costal hurricane zone, best to look out. You might get away with it, your kids might too, but their kids...it all catches up in the end.

Same with living your life. Gaia is about dynamic balance. She's not a static landscape, cause the one constant here on the Third Rock is change. But through it all, life manages to find the levals of interactive balance which makes for day to day existance. Upset that balance, and look for a correction to occur. Which is viewable as Gaia's way of laying the smack down on whatever tries to knock things way off kilter. LOL, too many lemmings? Where's that cliff? (And yes, I know that lemmings don't really jump over cliffs. But the image was too perfect. And being of the Irish, I'm not adverse to putting a bit of a shine on the truth, and telling things with a wee improvement. Heeheehee)

This has been a Public Pagan Service Announcement...

No, I don't believe in god. There may have been a creator, but it/they were not a "god" that needs to be worshiped, or even out that stuck around to find out how its creation was doing. If something or someone created us, we ceritinaly wouldn't have been the only version of us tryed, so, why out of the entire vast universe, would they focus on us? I believe that people invented god (as represented in all the major religions of the world) to explain natural phenomina, and to anwser questions that they couldn't anwser. "where do we go when we die?", "how did we get here?", "why are we here?". The major religions based their anwsers on what they knew of the world around them. At that time they didn't know much. Its incredible that today, when we know some much more about the world around us, people still acsept the anwsers that the major religions provide. The reason for this is that religion is imbedded into our society, its passed down through tradition and any "non-believers" are traditionaly ostracised.

The only "religion" I believe in is that of an open mind. I don't know all the anwsers and i would never claim that i would. But what I do is try and educate my self to the best of my ability before making any decision about what I believe. When I thought about it, the major religions just didn't make sense, this is why I don't believe in them. There are too many people out there who don't take the time to think. They just take life at face value and spend all of their time doing what other people tell them to. They try and fit in, make themselves popular, they are so caught up with their stupid little lives that they never take the time to think about why. And then they die, and its over, and their life, which they thought was so important doesn't matter worth shit. So, why waste your time trying to go with the flow? Keep an open mind, other wise you will always be a prisioner to yourself.

Also, a question to all these "specialty religions" wicca, witchcraft, pegan, satianist, etc, do you all really believe in that stuff, or do you just like the way it feels when people pay attention to you because you are a that religion? Not to put you down or anything, im just wondering. Any intelligent anwser ill be happy to listen to, i never reject anything at face value.

Isn't this Philosophy section great?

I cant bring my self to believe there is no god because bad things happen in the world, he just gives us our life and his love and sends us on a merry way, not pampering us everyday of our life, actually pain and suffering purifies when your strong. So just be strong and tough it out, and if your open to suggestion put your faith in him.
If not, dont, but we gotta beleive in somting right?

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Lunacy is when we no longer see the seems where our dreams and reality have been stitched together

-rEvolutionist

Hate burst your bubble, but there is nothing so special about human beings, that a "God" sits around and watches us...

This is just another example of cultural egotism at work. People think that since we have evolved brains and self awareness, that there must be some great "creator" and "watcher" of all this...

In reality, we are merely the latest evolutionary step off this mold known as "life" on Earth. who knows, if there is a God, maybe he is getting ready to Lysol the planet??? After all, life doesn't appear to be doing the planet too many favours.

Who knows.

Springbok

i do not believe in god

god-theory is just a primitive paradigm based on hive authority perpetuated through the herd by its inclination to obedience and need for superiority

it is a subjective being, not existing outside of a mind, but does anything?

Lucky for me, my family took this type of thing seriously (like I said before, I'm of the Irish). They weren't church types anyway, so it wasn't all that hard growing up believing as I do. Well, you did run into the odd Bible crank, but the Catholics I could always deflect with a reference to St Francois (the Ecologist). The Protastants? *Evil Chuckle* Why do you think I started training in Hapkido? And went out for the school wrestling team?

As for defending my beliefs...well., I already explained the basics of the Gaia Theory. Here's another little tidbit of science fact. Researchers at the University of Western Ontario have demonstrated that when humans are exposed to electo-magnetic felds, various parts of their brains will be stimulated and activated. And process the neural activity, resulting in remarkably vivid sensory experiences. Said experiences tending to reflect the beliefs and value systems of the experimental subjects.

So what it boils down to, human beings are built in a manner that makes them able to experience the effects of energy fields. And since the entire world is wrapped in energy fields (electical, magnetic, elecrostatic, bio energy), it seems that there'd be a fundemental external basis to some forms of the mystical experience.

Which is what it means to me. I can't say for sure exactly what the "gods" are. I can't even say how much of what I'm percieving is a result of my conscious projection onto and into my experience of the phenomena. But I AM experiencing this, and I DO connect to something that has external imput.

And so I honour Them. Light candels, set up my altar. Cause it's a human thing, something that appears to be hardwired right into us (damn few cultures or people have ever existed with no religous impulse whatsoever). And I pray to them, cause whatever They are They produce as much awe in me as any wonder of nature. Hel, I don't even split Them off as seperat, They ARE wonders of nature. And whatever lessons that come my way, are greatfully appreciated.

And as humans, I'd say we'd better start paying attention to those Gaia lessons. Cause we aren't exempt from the smackdown that will come from getting things waaaayyyy out of balance. Might even be too late, and the price to be paid for living out of balance is due in the next few decades. But come what may, humans have to learn a new way of existing and coexisting within their natural enviroment. And if that's to be Gaia's lesson and gift to us in the years to come...time to start the studies!

ToTheSummit-If God doesn't exists how did the earth get so perfectly round? What are the chances of natural forces creating anything so symetrical?

Contrary to popular belief, it's not a sphere.

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Listen to Captain Jack.
http://www.mp3.com/captainjack99/

~Kriz

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"God made pot, Man made beer... who do you trust??"

Martin Luther King, Mother Terresa, Ghandi, the Dalhi Lama, Thich Nat Hahn, soup kitchens, homeless hostels, charity, personal senses of peace, enlightenment, understanding, compassion, mystic vision, a respect for the earth, respect for the dead, respect for elders, experiences above and beyond anything concievable through an athiestic (ultimately materialistic) mindset, and on and on. If religion is counter evolutionary, HOW THE HELL HAVE WE EVOLVED TO THIS POINT???
Maybe you should explain yourself a little better Kriz because you are making some damn big statements that are disrespecting some of the most compassionate and generous people who have ever walked the face of the earth. Not to mention the absoulte arrogance of thinking humans are the most highly evolved species on the planet/in the universe. What happens when you meet God face to face and low and behold your are crying like a fucking baby "I didn't know, I didn't know." It can fucking happen. Don't be so sure of yourself.

[This message has been edited by inbetween (edited November 21, 1999).]

I do not believe in god and I do not care for christanity.Its not that it has never done anyone any good it has but it has also done very bad things as well.There were whole wars started over minor religious differences starting as far back as when Rome legalized christanity.It has spread intolerence by the simple fact that many christuans do not tolerate other faiths,a few centuries ago we are not talking just sending some people over to convert the natives but the convert or die mentality.This inablity to accept others that do not see the world the way they do is were christanity loses its appeal and at times makes me angry.

Crankenstein you said in your first post in this thread that natural disasters are punishment from God,now again no offence is intended but that idea is quite absurd.This makes little sense and is a bit of an insult to all those that have died before there time in natural disasters.
Let me give you an example of why I think this is absurd.Lets go back to say North America 1000 years ago.Now there were indeed people here than and they knew nothing of God or christanity and there people would hear nothing of it for centuries.There were natural disasters, there were floods and earthquakes and hurricanes.Now these people have never heard of christanity,they know nothing of it.Do you really believe God would just cause a disaster and kill so many of these poor people?Do you believe God would not let them know of his existance,no sermon on the mountain,no I am your Lord,just a flood,or hurricane?What kind of god is this?Not one I want any part of.Now I could debate you on all sorts of bible contradictions and what not but I won't,I do not believe and I want no part of christanity or god not simply because I do not believe because as I looked threw the bible more and more I do not like what I see.

I am not going to say humans are the most powerful and greatest thing in existance ,we simple exist.There is certainly more to it all than us but I am not going to get down on my knees and worship it and no that does not make me a bad and immoral person.I am one that does not see being religious and being moral as the same thing.Christanity has its share of blood on its hand as do we all, and they need to confess to some mistakes.

Still if you wish to beileve in whatever way you desire go ahead.I do not so much desire to talk people out of being christian as being dogmatic and forcing there belief system onto others,I will not have beliefs forced onto me no matter what.

Well thats about it,peace.

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"Were bigger than Jesus Christ right now..."
-John Lennon(1966)

[This message has been edited by Parker (edited November 21, 1999).]

inbetween,
They are all examples of compassion and forgiveness and love and peace, but is it because they are also religious? Does the fact that they are religious make them any better?

Couldn't martin luther king have led the equal right movements without being a minister?
Couldn't Mother Terresa have been as compasionate to the poor, without being a nun?
Non-religious soup kitchens exist.
Charity is not exclusivly religious
Personal senses of peace can be achieved with out religion, im an atheist and im still at peace with myself.
Enlightenment and understanding are things that really have nothing to do with religion.
Compassion is a human quality, not a religious quality.

I think that you have orginized religion confused with what should be personal spirituality and moral and ethical beliefs.
Just because I am an atheist does not make me an uncompasionate, unenlightened, unethical, unrespectful person.
Just the opposite. I feel that because I am not a member of any religion that I have had much more chance for free thought and personal enlightenment.

But, since we are on the subject, lets look at all the negative things religion has caused:
the inquisition. the holy wars. The forced conversion of millions of native americans by the early american settlers, on pain of death. the restriction of free-thought. The salem witch trials. the prosecution of countless scientists and philosophers. the suppression of scientific discovery. The suppresion of sexuality. The suppresion of women. Abortion clinic bombings. And those are just the direct negatives. Indirectly, religion has caused billions of deaths due to the lack of scientific and medical knowledge that would have been know if it was not initialy suppressed by religion. A large majority of all the wars ever fought were fought over religion. In my opinion organised religion has done more hurt that help.

As for evolution, our SOCIETY may have become religious, but it has nothing to do with evolution, as a species, human beings have really evolved little in the time that we have had religion. Evolution is the theory that the only the strongest survive to spread on their genes, and the weak die. Thats how species change over time. We as humans can't change because the weakest don't die and the strongest don't live. The weak and sick live because modern medicine. The strong don't have any advantage over the weak. The only reason most deaths occur is either old age or some kind of accident or the person is killed by anougher. No one dies because they can't hack it as a person, even if they are poor and impoverished they still manage to pump off a few kids, thus passing on their genes. And maybe its better that way, maybe not. But evolution really doesn't apply to humans because we won't let it.

If I die and then meet a "god", then of course i will feel stupid, just about as stupid as you would feel if you died and you met a big purple dinosuar that cut off your head and ate your penial gland. Which is about as likely to happen.

[This message has been edited by Surreal (edited November 21, 1999).]

Anyway.. By evolutionary i meant social, and mental rather then physical evolution. All things in science that may prove god or other supernatural beliefs wrong is then frowned upon and slowed in its development.. throughout the history of the world religion has slowed MANY developments.. look at all the major contriputers to science.. Galileo, Plato, Devinci.. (jesus i go to make an argument but can't think of any ppl.. oh well you can all think of several) that have been forced to keep their findings secret for fear of the churches consequences... and imagine if those things were brought into the publics view earlier.. the things taht could have happened by now are unimaginable.. THAT is counter evolutionary. I personally volenteer every christmas (and sometimes other times of the year) at soup kitchens and give regularly to charity.. i'm atheist.. you don't need relgion to be generous.. and if you do its just as disgusting as if you weren't at all, i mean if you need some reward like heaven or you need a punishment like hell in order to be a compassionate human, you are vile. And, inbetween, i never said we are the most advanced race in the universe, and as the on the planet.. we are. i mean.. raise your hand if you have the ability to read.. hey look only humans.. i mean come on.. of course we are.. AND talk about arrogance!! YOU have the arrogance to believe that you were made in the image of the most powerful perfect being in all of the universe.. and I"M arrogant?!!? LOL please..

~Kriz

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"God made pot, Man made beer... who do you trust??"

Science can be much more mystifying than religion at times! And don't jump to the conclusion that God is responsible for something just because it seems amazing. Things that occur around me every day seem amazing...but I have scientific explanations for them.

I think bad things must happen to teach us to value good things, how can we know love if we don't know hate. The man who knows no sorrow can know no joy, at least not in this life anyway. I've come to my own beliefs that God put us here to learn and experiance these emotions good and bad and teach us the value of them. To me this life is just preperation
for the next.

But what i did learn from all my bible studies and life experiances is that Love is first an formost important to GOD.
Just some thoughts.

It is crazy how people jump to conclusions, people with supposedly open minds. Really you are just pigeon holeing everything into narrow boxes. To appreciate the *positive* contributions that religions have made automatically makes me 1. Catholic 2. Theistic 3. Someone who is blind to the horrors religious instituions have committed the world over, in every case contradictory to their internal belief system.
I am none of those things and you all need to check yourselves to see where that kind of prejudice is coming from. That's human to human by the way, there is something unnerving about it.
My point was just because we have out grown religions of the past it is more than just stupid to not see the good they have done, it is actually depriving us of something. I know there is a lot of emotional energy tied up in this because many of us were brought up christian/catholic and feel/felt that we were lied to. We actually saw the dubious nature of the Church, the way it was used as an opiate of the masses, to control people and keep them in line, the way it was force fed down our throats and the throats of millions of other people from innocent cultures who were deemed savaged and damned and needed to be given teachings of christ to save their souls from eternal damnation, never stopping to think that there might have been something that they could have learned from THEM. Fuck, I thought the church was sacred as a child because I didn't know any better. BUT, there is SOMETHING there of depth and meaning on the archetypal level, but we can only see those things as artifacts now. I too read the bible and didn't like what I read. It is probably the most over-rated book in the world.
Here's the thing, for thousands of years the human imagination has been fed and nurtured by various religious traditions. On some level those thought patterns still exist in us and can be useful when seen with intelligence. Read Joseph Campbell for an excellent example of what I am talking about. I fully understand and relate with where you guys are coming from, I just think there is more to the picture.
Anyway, if god doesn't exist don't believe in him.

I wouldn't have responded in that way if it weren't for the last comment you made:

"What happens when you meet God face to face and low and behold your are crying like a fucking baby "I didn't know, I didn't know." It can fucking happen. Don't be so sure of yourself."

That just pissed me off, it showed the air of arrognace that many religous people seem to have when ever you argue with them about religion, that what ever you say to them is completely wrong and there is no room for compromising. And then when they are cornered they start insulting you.

This may not nessacarily be you, and that might not have been what you were trying to do, but it reminded me of some people I know and dispise, so i decided to rebute your argument.

Sorry if i misjudged you, but next time don't be so quick to jump down the dudes throat, so far that has really been the only hostal post on this thread, which is kind of suprizing, but still.

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Not every end is a goal. The end of a melody is not its goal; but nonetheless, if the melody had not reached its end it would not have reached its goal. A parable.

-Nietzsche

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"Were bigger than Jesus Christ right now..."
-John Lennon(1966)

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Not every end is a goal. The end of a melody is not its goal; but nonetheless, if the melody had not reached its end it would not have reached its goal. A parable.

-Nietzsche

Now here's one. Can God create a rock so heavy "He" cannot lift it? I don't see how this can be answered and keep a good definition of omnipotence.

That's similar to a t-shirt I once saw in a mall in Mississippi. "God can do anything, except FAIL." So help me God, I'm going to be living there for the next 2-3 years of my life starting next fall.
-Mad Hatter

Why would they have to be perfect?

OK, you can go Plato, and argue for the existance of the Ideal, which is by (Platonic) definition Perfect. But why does it follow that God(s) have to be themselves representaitions of Perfection?

After all, if the underlying basis of universal existance is Perfect Ideals, then how is change possible?

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"Were bigger than Jesus Christ right now..."
-John Lennon(1966)

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"My mind dont work if my spine dont jerk"
-Quote from Eminem-

~PanTrop~

Thanks again.

-=Makaveli=-

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Not every end is a goal. The end of a melody is not its goal; but nonetheless, if the melody had not reached its end it would not have reached its goal. A parable.

-Nietzsche

For as long as humanity has existed, it has existed in herds, tribes, peoples, nations, groups, families, churches, etc? and always an irrational obedience to the designated "leader" of which there are always far less than there are followers, therefore humans have basically evolved with the inclination, or desire, to obey. Of course they do not know this, they have come up with the idea of "free will"
they are in fact more like Pavlov's dogs, only much more complex, in that they condition themselves to act, behave, respond in set patterns and reactions based on external events, conditioned through the "sheep blanket" of society.
Humans behave according to Hive authority, they believe in ranks based upon certain standards which arise from the belief that it is direly important to be accepted by their peers, this results from confusing image with actual self, this need for acceptance translates into the need to be "right" and in order to be right you believe others must be wrong (the primitive belief that there is only one right and all else is wrong
humans do not have free will, what is called freedom of the will is the action performed after you "will" yourself to do it.
This original will however is more like a conditioned response, (in nearly every chance for decision, one particular choice will stand out, this one is the ingrained (ingrained since childhood by parents/teachers), conditioned (conditioned by media/peers/society), and inherited (inherited through genes, DNA being shown to form personality and thought patterns) choice, which you will blindly follow-this conditioning along with your instincts all reacting off of each other (these instincts being based on the need for immediate survival- perceptions being based on chemicals which cannot evolve-) form what is called "freedom of the will"

in every act of willing there is, first, a multiplicity of feelings,
namely, the feeling of the condition you are moving away from, and the feeling of the condition you are moving towards
these feelings and also an accompanying muscular sensation, which, even without our putting into motion begins its action by force of habit as soon as we "will" anything.
And just as feelings (and indeed many kinds of feelings) are to be recognized as
ingredients of the will, so, secondly, should thinking, as in every act of the will there is always a commanding thought -
Third, the will is not only a complex of feeling and thinking, but it is above all an emotion, the emotion of command. That which is termed "freedom of the will" is essentially the
emotion of superiority in relation to the one who must obey: "I am free, 'he' must obey" - this consciousness
is in every act of will;
and equally the concentration , fixation on one thing, "now we must have this and nothing else"
and the inward certainty that obedience will follow - A man who wills commands something within himself that renders obedience, or that he believes renders obedience.
When we will we both command and obey, and with obedience comes the feelings of coercion, pressure, oppression, resistance, and agitation which usually begin immediately after the act of will, on the other hand, we are in the habit of ignoring, or overlooking this duality, or division, and to deceive ourselves about it by means of the synthetic concept "I," a whole series of erroneous conclusions, and consequently of false evaluations of the will itself, has become attached to the act of willing - to such a degree that he
who wills believes that willing itself is enough for action.
Since in most cases there has been exercise of the will only when the effect of the command - that is, obedience; that is, the action- was to be expected. Therefore he who wills believes with a fair amount of certainty that will and action are somehow one; he ascribes the success, the carrying out of the willing, to the will itself, and thereby enjoys an increase of the sensation of power which accompanies all success.
and if you agree with my thought loop/formation theory, then "your" thoughts are just the products of your thought processes which have developed through imitation of teacher/parental figure, conditioning you to act in certain ways
when you say "i am thinking" you are implying that thinking is an action
if it is an action then there must be a period where you are not doing it
to say i am thinking means that some of the time you are not thinking
therefore some of the time you are not existing
better to say just simply "thought"
and you are a part of it
one small facet of Thought

now take this need to obey on a much larger scale along with the system of hive authority, and the idea of god arises, the primitive belief system used to explain things. It is based on adherence, and questionless obedience, It is the ultimate controlling device. It spreads easily thanks to herd mentality

the existentialist sets up four ultimate concerns (death, freedom, isolation, and meaninglessness) every human has to come to terms with these four things in one way or another. What happens quite often is someone finds a coping mechanism or way to shove off their anxiety concerning these four things. humans cover up for the anxiety of the meaninglessness of life through rigidly held values, defensive dogma and the like. So the fact that their life has no value or meaning makes them stick their nose in ours, everybody's. It could relate to the anxiety of freedom which can manifest neuroticly as complusive behavior.
What are they most afraid of? meaninglessness,
that all their preciously held beliefs are ultimately without meaning, and they will have died never finding out who they really are or what they could have become.

add to that the theories in exo-psychology of the four survival imprints and circuits of communication
1.cellular well being
2.emotional-hierarchical status
3.artifact manipulation game
4.socio-sexual security; domestic reassurance
and the standard human (existing in a state of neotony- or larval stage-) is not interested in anything which does not fit into one of these, or improve upon them--they are also fearful of anything which does not fit into them, or appears to threaten their previous conceptions of these ideas- and fear leads to objection, which leads to action against these seeming threats

All larval interactions are instrumental to one of these four
survival attitudes. Larvals are comfortably adapted to this limited
four-channel communication, scan automatically for the survival
meaning of each stimulus and scuttle by each other like ants, each
intent on Hir own "reality" - reacting automatically to relevant cues
from others.

Larval communication occurs in terms of four systems, some
of which are comprehensible to the entire species, some of which
are limited to members of the same cultural-imprint group.
Larvals do not like to receive information unless the facts fit
into their 3rd Circuit reality net and immediately reward their
emotional status. Larvals submit themselves to learn new symbols only under
special motivational circumstances where the new connections
build on and confirm established systems or give promise of future
emotional rewards of which the teacher is model.

Larvals fervently resist new symbols which require a change
in their network of associations. This resistance to learning is not
psychological; it is neurological and biochemical. New ideas require
a change in the wiring of associations and literally cause a
"headache."
In communicating with larvals about sexual, philosophic, or
ethical matters, one enters very dangerous terrain. It is almost
impossible to discuss philosophy with yokels. Hypocrisy,
unconscious motivation, irrational paradox, need for approval and
fear-of-shame dominate every discussion of philosophy-religion.
The reasons for this philosophic phobia:

1. Yokels are ignorant about where life came from,
where it is going and why. They are thus terrified by
their mortality. Each larval has accepted a flimsy
philosophy of life-and-death which SHe does not really
believe. Thus the irritation and panic when this basic
hypocrisy is threatened by a scientific discussion about
life-origin and life destination.

2. Yokels are robot-slaves to DNA. They blindly
labor to perpetuate the species, to breed, to establish
domestic arrangements for rearing young and to
transmit cultural survival patterns. Any discussion
which threatens to expose or question this robothood
is extremely painful. The larval cannot tolerate the
insight into uneasy areas of uncertainty.
however they refuse to accept this and so create a higher meaning to their life, god, in order to make them feel superior

3. Expression and inhibition of sexual behavior is
charged with terror, because orgasm and sperm-egg
transfer must be domesticated to provide for stable
child rearing. Discussing exo-psychology with a yokel is like discussing
sexual experiences with a pre-adolescent. SHe just can't
understand the new reality because Hir neural circuits have not been
turned-on. And SHe may turn you in for philosophic child molesting.

In particular, one must be diplomatic in discussing the future
evolution of the human species. Larval humans naturally believe
that evolution has already reached its highest stage with homo
sapiens!

the herd reacts strongly to anything contrary to herd conditioning, because the herd truly believes these ideas to be their own.

Monotheism is the primitive religion which
centers human consciousness on Hive
Authority. There is One God and His Name is
(substitute Hive-Label). If there is only One
God then there is no choice, no option, no
selection of reality. There is only Submission or
Heresy. The word Islam means "submission." The basic posture of
Christianity is
kneeling. Thy will be done. Monotheism therefore does no harm to
hive-oriented
terrestrials (Stages 10, 11 and 12) who eagerly seek to lay-off responsibility
on some
Big Boss. Monotheism does profound mischief to those who are evolving to
post-hive
stages of reality. Advanced mutants (Stages 13 to 18) do make the
discovery that "All
is One," as the realization dawns that "My Brain creates all the realities that I
experience." The discovery of Self is frightening because the novitiate
possessor of the
Automobile Body and the Automobile Brain must accept all the power that
the hive
religions attributed to the jealous Jehovah.
It is the duty of a monotheist to destroy any competitive heresy. Concepts
such as
devil, hell, guilt, eternal damnation, sin, evil are fabrications by the hive to
insure loyalty
to Hive Central. All these doctrines are precisely designed to intimidate and
crush
Individualism. The process of mutating into Self-hood plunges the mutant
into this cross
fire of neurogenetic moral flak. Most of the freak-outs, bad trips and hellish
experiences are caused by Monotheistic Morality. Again, it must be
emphasized, that
Monotheism is a necessary stage. Monotheism is a technology, a tool, to
bring
pre-civilized tribespeople and caste-segregated primitives into the
collectives necessary
to develop the post-hive, post-terrestrial technologies.

The major evolutionary step is taken when the individual says: "There is only
one
God who creates the universe. This God is my Brain. As the driver of this
Brain I have
created a universe in which there are innumerable other Gods of equal
post-hive
autonomy with whom I seek to interest.

[This message has been edited by The Insect Priest (edited November 24, 1999).]

As for the arguements that the Divine is mearly an intellectual construct...

It's been demonstrated that humans have an ability to process their interaction with energy fields (University of Western Ontario). The scientists doing the research went as far as to label it the "god sense". Probably as a way of deflecting criticism from the Bible thumpers, who saw the whole thing as dismissive of their "faith".

Doesn't change the facts. Humans can perceive phenomena beyond the range of the ordinary senses. And will respond to those perceptions -albeit in culturally conditioned modes. Xtian test subjects tended to "see" the visions from their own religous background. Secular types related stories that sounded like modern UFO encounter experiences.

What all subjects agreed on, was that the nature of these experiences seemed objectively real to them. Touched them in seriously deep ways. Many of the people who participated in the tests were quite shaken after their exposure to the cycled magnetic fields.

Doesn't in of itself prove the existance of the god(s). But it sure raises some interesting questions. Like why we as humans would have this as part of our evolutionary make upmake?

As for the arguements that the Divine is mearly an intellectual construct...

It's been demonstrated that humans have an ability to process their interaction with energy fields (University of Western Ontario). The scientists doing the research went as far as to label it the "god sense". Probably as a way of deflecting criticism from the Bible thumpers, who saw the whole thing as dismissive of their "faith".

Doesn't change the facts. Humans can perceive phenomena beyond the range of the ordinary senses. And will respond to those perceptions -albeit in culturally conditioned modes. Xtian test subjects tended to "see" the visions from their own religous background. Secular types related stories that sounded like modern UFO encounter experiences.

What all subjects agreed on, was that the nature of these experiences seemed objectively real to them. Touched them in seriously deep ways. Many of the people who participated in the tests were quite shaken after their exposure to the cycled magnetic fields.

Doesn't in of itself prove the existance of the god(s). But it sure raises some interesting questions. Like why we as humans would have this as part of our evolutionary make upmake?

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"There is nothing more pragmatic than idealism." -- David Mamet

I am also a roman catholic and i think it's against what roman catholics believe do even doubt that there isnt a supreme being. I might not be the most dedicated member of my church but after years of catholic schools i wouldnt even consider doubting that they're is a god. I am sorry that your grandfather died but everything happens for a reason. Everyone knows they'll die its just a question of when. And we shouldnt spend life worrying when that will be, we should live life to it's fullest.

Why do you think everything happens for a reason? Is it because it makes it easier for one to deal with tragedy if, behind it somewhere, there is a good reason hiding?
The story goes something like this:
"We are limited in our mental abilites and do not have the knowledge, capacity or processor speed to conceive of the entire world in all its complexity. Hence from our limited perspective some things seem plain horrible. However, if we did have this capacity, as God does by definition, we would see that there are good reasons for things that from our point of view seem unreasonable if not downright unpleasant."

This line of reasoning is based on a confusion of the concepts of "subject" and "object". Subjects have experience. What they have experience of is "objects". Where ever there is an "object" there is a "subject" experiencing that object. Where ever there is a "subject" there is an object of its experience. Hence subjects have "point of view". Then comes along this silly notion of "objectivity". (Journalists think they learn it in school) There is just no such thing as an "objective" point of view. All points of view are subjective. Points of view are LIMITED by perspective - thats why their called a "point". There is no point of view that encompasses all others - points are by definition, singular. There is no position, or metaphysic, that can fairly or accuratly include all others. Thats one of the reasons we fight.

If you have read this far you are a creature of patience. Good for you.

Do we maybe look for reason in the world because "reason" is as basic a tool to us as our fancy opposable thumbs? Reason has got us a long way - it is a very powerful thing. This does not, however, mean that it is necessarily a basic element of the universe. That we use reason to cope in the world, and that it works so very well for us, is not a demonstration that the world is a "reasonable" place. In fact it often is not a very reasonable place, thats partly why there are things like religion that try and fill in the gap.

We look for reason in the world because thats what we do. We are creatures of reason (among other things - like passion ). Just because we look for it and perhaps desire, or even need it, does not mean it is there.

I myself do not think there is a "reason" for everything. At one time I very much believed there was. At first a world of accidents and chance seemed a horrible thing. Now I see it as a much more beautiful and mysterious place since I let go of my desire to impose reason and order upon it.

I certainly agree, and I think almost everybody here would too, that we should live life to its fullest. The world is beyond our complete understanding and conception. It would not be such a beautiful and mysterious thing if it wasnt. Let it be free.

peace.

Bascially before time or even matter there was god. Pure energy. there he sat in heaven with his many many angels. Then one day god decides that he wants to know where he came from. So he decides to create matter. He takes a small amount of himself (energy) and creates matter bringing about the existance of time. So there is god. With all of his angels (also called watchers) and life began on earth. The first single celled organisms appeared and life was created. Evoloution took place and as it progressed some of the angels noticed that injustice and suffering was begining to take place. Memnoch was concered with this and brought the concern to god. God just said that this was his creation and it was to be looked at as something beauitful and basically to shut up =)
As evoultion progressed, came along man. Well eventually man evolved a soul. The final step in evoloution. Where matter is converted back to energy! Now after the body dies the soul is left to wander lost confused and suffering in the after life. Memnoch is very upset at this and asks god why he wont let the souls into heaven? so god sends memnoch into the after life and bring back the souls that are worthy to be in heaven. So Memnoch comes back with millions of souls and brings them into heaven but he asks what about all those that are still left lost and confused, suffering, but not yet ready to enter heaven. So god sends memnoch to the place of suffering where it is his job to teach the souls to accept god and to forgive so they can be let into heaven. SO the devil in this book really isnt evil. He is opposed to god but he is not evil. He is the one who brings the souls into heaven, not god. Ahh its wicked!
I truly love this book. There is so much more that I havent explained but if you find this interesting then read it. Its a excellent mind trip.

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Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven