Lucky for me, my family took this type of thing seriously (like I said before, I'm of the Irish). They weren't church types anyway, so it wasn't all that hard growing up believing as I do. Well, you did run into the odd Bible crank, but the Catholics I could always deflect with a reference to St Francois (the Ecologist). The Protastants? *Evil Chuckle* Why do you think I started training in Hapkido? And went out for the school wrestling team?

As for defending my beliefs...well., I already explained the basics of the Gaia Theory. Here's another little tidbit of science fact. Researchers at the University of Western Ontario have demonstrated that when humans are exposed to electo-magnetic felds, various parts of their brains will be stimulated and activated. And process the neural activity, resulting in remarkably vivid sensory experiences. Said experiences tending to reflect the beliefs and value systems of the experimental subjects.

So what it boils down to, human beings are built in a manner that makes them able to experience the effects of energy fields. And since the entire world is wrapped in energy fields (electical, magnetic, elecrostatic, bio energy), it seems that there'd be a fundemental external basis to some forms of the mystical experience.

Which is what it means to me. I can't say for sure exactly what the "gods" are. I can't even say how much of what I'm percieving is a result of my conscious projection onto and into my experience of the phenomena. But I AM experiencing this, and I DO connect to something that has external imput.

And so I honour Them. Light candels, set up my altar. Cause it's a human thing, something that appears to be hardwired right into us (damn few cultures or people have ever existed with no religous impulse whatsoever). And I pray to them, cause whatever They are They produce as much awe in me as any wonder of nature. Hel, I don't even split Them off as seperat, They ARE wonders of nature. And whatever lessons that come my way, are greatfully appreciated.

And as humans, I'd say we'd better start paying attention to those Gaia lessons. Cause we aren't exempt from the smackdown that will come from getting things waaaayyyy out of balance. Might even be too late, and the price to be paid for living out of balance is due in the next few decades. But come what may, humans have to learn a new way of existing and coexisting within their natural enviroment. And if that's to be Gaia's lesson and gift to us in the years to come...time to start the studies!

ToTheSummit-If God doesn't exists how did the earth get so perfectly round? What are the chances of natural forces creating anything so symetrical?

Contrary to popular belief, it's not a sphere.

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Listen to Captain Jack.
http://www.mp3.com/captainjack99/

~Kriz

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"God made pot, Man made beer... who do you trust??"

Martin Luther King, Mother Terresa, Ghandi, the Dalhi Lama, Thich Nat Hahn, soup kitchens, homeless hostels, charity, personal senses of peace, enlightenment, understanding, compassion, mystic vision, a respect for the earth, respect for the dead, respect for elders, experiences above and beyond anything concievable through an athiestic (ultimately materialistic) mindset, and on and on. If religion is counter evolutionary, HOW THE HELL HAVE WE EVOLVED TO THIS POINT???
Maybe you should explain yourself a little better Kriz because you are making some damn big statements that are disrespecting some of the most compassionate and generous people who have ever walked the face of the earth. Not to mention the absoulte arrogance of thinking humans are the most highly evolved species on the planet/in the universe. What happens when you meet God face to face and low and behold your are crying like a fucking baby "I didn't know, I didn't know." It can fucking happen. Don't be so sure of yourself.

[This message has been edited by inbetween (edited November 21, 1999).]

I do not believe in god and I do not care for christanity.Its not that it has never done anyone any good it has but it has also done very bad things as well.There were whole wars started over minor religious differences starting as far back as when Rome legalized christanity.It has spread intolerence by the simple fact that many christuans do not tolerate other faiths,a few centuries ago we are not talking just sending some people over to convert the natives but the convert or die mentality.This inablity to accept others that do not see the world the way they do is were christanity loses its appeal and at times makes me angry.

Crankenstein you said in your first post in this thread that natural disasters are punishment from God,now again no offence is intended but that idea is quite absurd.This makes little sense and is a bit of an insult to all those that have died before there time in natural disasters.
Let me give you an example of why I think this is absurd.Lets go back to say North America 1000 years ago.Now there were indeed people here than and they knew nothing of God or christanity and there people would hear nothing of it for centuries.There were natural disasters, there were floods and earthquakes and hurricanes.Now these people have never heard of christanity,they know nothing of it.Do you really believe God would just cause a disaster and kill so many of these poor people?Do you believe God would not let them know of his existance,no sermon on the mountain,no I am your Lord,just a flood,or hurricane?What kind of god is this?Not one I want any part of.Now I could debate you on all sorts of bible contradictions and what not but I won't,I do not believe and I want no part of christanity or god not simply because I do not believe because as I looked threw the bible more and more I do not like what I see.

I am not going to say humans are the most powerful and greatest thing in existance ,we simple exist.There is certainly more to it all than us but I am not going to get down on my knees and worship it and no that does not make me a bad and immoral person.I am one that does not see being religious and being moral as the same thing.Christanity has its share of blood on its hand as do we all, and they need to confess to some mistakes.

Still if you wish to beileve in whatever way you desire go ahead.I do not so much desire to talk people out of being christian as being dogmatic and forcing there belief system onto others,I will not have beliefs forced onto me no matter what.

Well thats about it,peace.

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"Were bigger than Jesus Christ right now..."
-John Lennon(1966)

[This message has been edited by Parker (edited November 21, 1999).]

inbetween,
They are all examples of compassion and forgiveness and love and peace, but is it because they are also religious? Does the fact that they are religious make them any better?

Couldn't martin luther king have led the equal right movements without being a minister?
Couldn't Mother Terresa have been as compasionate to the poor, without being a nun?
Non-religious soup kitchens exist.
Charity is not exclusivly religious
Personal senses of peace can be achieved with out religion, im an atheist and im still at peace with myself.
Enlightenment and understanding are things that really have nothing to do with religion.
Compassion is a human quality, not a religious quality.

I think that you have orginized religion confused with what should be personal spirituality and moral and ethical beliefs.
Just because I am an atheist does not make me an uncompasionate, unenlightened, unethical, unrespectful person.
Just the opposite. I feel that because I am not a member of any religion that I have had much more chance for free thought and personal enlightenment.

But, since we are on the subject, lets look at all the negative things religion has caused:
the inquisition. the holy wars. The forced conversion of millions of native americans by the early american settlers, on pain of death. the restriction of free-thought. The salem witch trials. the prosecution of countless scientists and philosophers. the suppression of scientific discovery. The suppresion of sexuality. The suppresion of women. Abortion clinic bombings. And those are just the direct negatives. Indirectly, religion has caused billions of deaths due to the lack of scientific and medical knowledge that would have been know if it was not initialy suppressed by religion. A large majority of all the wars ever fought were fought over religion. In my opinion organised religion has done more hurt that help.

As for evolution, our SOCIETY may have become religious, but it has nothing to do with evolution, as a species, human beings have really evolved little in the time that we have had religion. Evolution is the theory that the only the strongest survive to spread on their genes, and the weak die. Thats how species change over time. We as humans can't change because the weakest don't die and the strongest don't live. The weak and sick live because modern medicine. The strong don't have any advantage over the weak. The only reason most deaths occur is either old age or some kind of accident or the person is killed by anougher. No one dies because they can't hack it as a person, even if they are poor and impoverished they still manage to pump off a few kids, thus passing on their genes. And maybe its better that way, maybe not. But evolution really doesn't apply to humans because we won't let it.

If I die and then meet a "god", then of course i will feel stupid, just about as stupid as you would feel if you died and you met a big purple dinosuar that cut off your head and ate your penial gland. Which is about as likely to happen.

[This message has been edited by Surreal (edited November 21, 1999).]

Anyway.. By evolutionary i meant social, and mental rather then physical evolution. All things in science that may prove god or other supernatural beliefs wrong is then frowned upon and slowed in its development.. throughout the history of the world religion has slowed MANY developments.. look at all the major contriputers to science.. Galileo, Plato, Devinci.. (jesus i go to make an argument but can't think of any ppl.. oh well you can all think of several) that have been forced to keep their findings secret for fear of the churches consequences... and imagine if those things were brought into the publics view earlier.. the things taht could have happened by now are unimaginable.. THAT is counter evolutionary. I personally volenteer every christmas (and sometimes other times of the year) at soup kitchens and give regularly to charity.. i'm atheist.. you don't need relgion to be generous.. and if you do its just as disgusting as if you weren't at all, i mean if you need some reward like heaven or you need a punishment like hell in order to be a compassionate human, you are vile. And, inbetween, i never said we are the most advanced race in the universe, and as the on the planet.. we are. i mean.. raise your hand if you have the ability to read.. hey look only humans.. i mean come on.. of course we are.. AND talk about arrogance!! YOU have the arrogance to believe that you were made in the image of the most powerful perfect being in all of the universe.. and I"M arrogant?!!? LOL please..

~Kriz

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"God made pot, Man made beer... who do you trust??"

Science can be much more mystifying than religion at times! And don't jump to the conclusion that God is responsible for something just because it seems amazing. Things that occur around me every day seem amazing...but I have scientific explanations for them.

I think bad things must happen to teach us to value good things, how can we know love if we don't know hate. The man who knows no sorrow can know no joy, at least not in this life anyway. I've come to my own beliefs that God put us here to learn and experiance these emotions good and bad and teach us the value of them. To me this life is just preperation
for the next.

But what i did learn from all my bible studies and life experiances is that Love is first an formost important to GOD.
Just some thoughts.

It is crazy how people jump to conclusions, people with supposedly open minds. Really you are just pigeon holeing everything into narrow boxes. To appreciate the *positive* contributions that religions have made automatically makes me 1. Catholic 2. Theistic 3. Someone who is blind to the horrors religious instituions have committed the world over, in every case contradictory to their internal belief system.
I am none of those things and you all need to check yourselves to see where that kind of prejudice is coming from. That's human to human by the way, there is something unnerving about it.
My point was just because we have out grown religions of the past it is more than just stupid to not see the good they have done, it is actually depriving us of something. I know there is a lot of emotional energy tied up in this because many of us were brought up christian/catholic and feel/felt that we were lied to. We actually saw the dubious nature of the Church, the way it was used as an opiate of the masses, to control people and keep them in line, the way it was force fed down our throats and the throats of millions of other people from innocent cultures who were deemed savaged and damned and needed to be given teachings of christ to save their souls from eternal damnation, never stopping to think that there might have been something that they could have learned from THEM. Fuck, I thought the church was sacred as a child because I didn't know any better. BUT, there is SOMETHING there of depth and meaning on the archetypal level, but we can only see those things as artifacts now. I too read the bible and didn't like what I read. It is probably the most over-rated book in the world.
Here's the thing, for thousands of years the human imagination has been fed and nurtured by various religious traditions. On some level those thought patterns still exist in us and can be useful when seen with intelligence. Read Joseph Campbell for an excellent example of what I am talking about. I fully understand and relate with where you guys are coming from, I just think there is more to the picture.
Anyway, if god doesn't exist don't believe in him.

I wouldn't have responded in that way if it weren't for the last comment you made:

"What happens when you meet God face to face and low and behold your are crying like a fucking baby "I didn't know, I didn't know." It can fucking happen. Don't be so sure of yourself."

That just pissed me off, it showed the air of arrognace that many religous people seem to have when ever you argue with them about religion, that what ever you say to them is completely wrong and there is no room for compromising. And then when they are cornered they start insulting you.

This may not nessacarily be you, and that might not have been what you were trying to do, but it reminded me of some people I know and dispise, so i decided to rebute your argument.

Sorry if i misjudged you, but next time don't be so quick to jump down the dudes throat, so far that has really been the only hostal post on this thread, which is kind of suprizing, but still.

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Not every end is a goal. The end of a melody is not its goal; but nonetheless, if the melody had not reached its end it would not have reached its goal. A parable.

-Nietzsche

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"Were bigger than Jesus Christ right now..."
-John Lennon(1966)