|
 Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
|
 Re: Believers ARE Rational Beings  [Re: Sclorch]
#613953 - 04/20/02 03:16 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
So, unless we are all agreed on a certain issue (like say, the War on Drugs... you'll notice, we never argue to the death about this. Why? Because we all agree- the WOD is bullshit.), I think logic should govern our relations in this forum.
The WOD is to any logical mind an irrational stance. The WOD is perpetuated by "believers" in a certain religious moral code. WOD supporters are irrational beings (on that issue).
Why is everyone struggling with this concept?
--------------------
The proof is in the pudding.
|
Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
|
Re: Are Believers Rational Beings? [Re: infidelGOD]
#613955 - 04/20/02 03:20 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
I can believe in things that can never be proven logically. Does that make me illogical?
Yes.
--------------------
The proof is in the pudding.
|
Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
|
|
Why has there been so much debate lately about the merits of strict rationalism vs. faith? Why does our community seem to be polarized between these two extremes?
Because the world is polarized by believers trying to shove their ideas down the throats of others.
The WOD is certainly polarizing.
Palestine and Israel are polarized.
Racism and homophobia are polarizing.
The Christian and Muslim worlds are polarized.
These stances are all possible because people hold onto irrational beliefs. They are impossible positions to maintain in a questioning mind.
--------------------
The proof is in the pudding.
|
Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
|
Re: Are Believers Rational Beings? [Re: ]
#613973 - 04/20/02 03:40 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
People are allowed to have their own view on reality without having someone come and try and change it to fit their view of reality.
We should just allow the WOD to continue and not question it? We should just allow religious wars to wage out of control? Or should we attack ignorance whenever it rears it's ugly head?
If you don't like the way someone views reality, or interprets the world, that is your problem, not theirs.
Tell me that if/when you get 15 years for growing fungus (I wish that on no one, but some of us here WILL get popped.)
I am guilty of doing the same things, which I don't like.
Then stop.
If you think someone is using bad logic, or deluding themselves... let them delude themselves.
That is contrary to the nature of a debate.
--------------------
The proof is in the pudding.
|
Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
|
Re: Are Believers Rational Beings? [Re: WeirdShroomer]
#613975 - 04/20/02 03:40 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
I think they both want to "sell" their truth.
Ask people to question things is hardly selling a truth. I have not proposed a position that I want anyone to adopt; there is no dogma, no list of beliefs.
--------------------
The proof is in the pudding.
|
infidelGOD
illusion
Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
|
Re: Are Believers Rational Beings? [Re: Swami]
#614048 - 04/20/02 05:44 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
"We should just allow the WOD to continue and not question it? We should just allow religious wars to wage out of control? Or should we attack ignorance whenever it rears it's ugly head?"
Ask people to question things is hardly selling a truth. I have not proposed a position that I want anyone to adopt; there is no dogma, no list of beliefs."
So we shoud attack the "ignorance" of believers??
It sounds like you are selling a truth. You have proposed a position and you do have a list of beliefs.
And why do you insist on grouping all believers together. I don't think you can fairly campare us with the WOD or religious zealots.
Should I group all skeptics together? A lot of people in the church are skeptical of paranormal activity (the non religious kind).
"I can believe in things that can never be proven logically. Does that make me illogical?
Yes."
No.
|
infidelGOD
illusion
Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
|
Re: Are Believers Rational Beings? [Re: infidelGOD]
#614054 - 04/20/02 05:59 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
I can believe in things that can never be proven logically. Does that make me illogical?
Every logical person knows that logic can't prove a negative. It cannot say that something does NOT exist.
If you say that I am illogical for believing in free will, you should be able to PROVE that free will does NOT exist.
Logic can only prove that something DOES exist. That is why logic is the FOUNDATION of all knowledge. It can never be a LIMIT to what we can know.
|
Anonymous
|
Re: Are Believers Rational Beings? [Re: Swami]
#614060 - 04/20/02 06:11 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Heh, I just find this whole thing really funny right now. Hehehe.... oh man it's too much, oh I love it.. *cackle* 
|
Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
|
 Re: Are Believers Rational Beings? [Re: ]
#614089 - 04/20/02 06:50 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Of course it is funny - that is the real point!
--------------------
The proof is in the pudding.
|
 skaMariaPastora
Utopiate
Registered: 03/14/01
Posts: 443
Loc: MA
Last seen: 21 years, 6 months
|
Re: Are Believers Rational Beings? [Re: Swami]
#614184 - 04/20/02 09:49 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Why has there been so much debate lately about the merits of strict rationalism vs. faith? Why does our community seem to be polarized between these two extremes?
Because the world is polarized by believers trying to shove their ideas down the throats of others.
Believers in illogical thought aren't the people that shove things down people's throats, its believers in anything. Swami, you have a strong belief in the logical methodology and as a result, advertently or not, you try to shove this fact down people's throats. Believers in Allah do the same thing, as with believers in the Christian God, or in Aliens. What we need to learn is that what our meager monkey minds can comprehend is not, just because we can reason it, true. Believing in something is saying that your brain can comprehend reality perfectly and others can't, and are therefore wrong. It is closing your mind up to other viewpoints.
I don't consider myself a "believer" mainly because I don't hold concepts that closely for them to be classified as a belief. I try to consider ideas, but don't let them run my mind. I'm not ragging on being logical or having faith, I'm saying that people should live with open minds. The world is polarized because people let their self-righteous ideas govern their interactions.
|
gnrm23
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/29/99
Posts: 6,490
Loc: n. e. OH, USSA
Last seen: 2 months, 8 days
|
|
"man is not a rational animal; man is a rationalizing animal"
(attributed to robert a heinlein)
--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care
|
Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
|
|
So when an irrational belief system impacts one's life, one is supposed to just roll over?
I bark a lot on this forum merely as a trick to bring people into the discussion, but I do not in any way interfere in the lives of others as I have no agenda.
If enough of us were awake there would be no more war. Rigid unwavering thinking is what causes damage.
--------------------
The proof is in the pudding.
|
JPAtanat
member
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 101
Last seen: 21 years, 10 months
|
Re: Are Believers Rational Beings? [Re: Swami]
#614222 - 04/20/02 11:21 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
you are arguably the most guilty of rigid unwavering thinking, Swami. It is a strict belief in rationalism that is one of the very causes of rigid unwavering thinking. There are some people who believe in things completely even if there is no evidence or experience to support it. That is too bad. But most of us simply believe in possibility, and while you will not admit it, for many of the things being discussed (ie things that cannot be proven scientifically) your rigid thought has already ruled out possibility.
Peace
|
Anonymous
|
Re: Are Believers Rational Beings? [Re: JPAtanat]
#614240 - 04/20/02 11:56 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Agreed.
Now let's all sit down and take a few hits from the bong. 
No.. that won't work. Obviously no one is going to WIN this debate. How about a fight to the death?  Winner take all.
|
Sclorch
Clyster
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
|
Re: Are Believers Rational Beings? [Re: JPAtanat]
#614750 - 04/21/02 01:36 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Let's clear some things up...
belief 3: conviction of truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon esp. when based on (here we go) examination of EVIDENCE.
I think the polarization occuring in this forum is really about EVIDENCE. So-called "believers" aren't even complying with Webster's definition of the word. They don't have evidence, all they have is blind faith. There is no blind faith in logic and rationalism. There is ample evidence to support the use of logic.
Q: Why are believers so intolerant of good reasoning?
A: Because it would compromise their belief system.
There are many possible reasons for a person not wanting to change their belief system (I'm not going to go into it). But can't you "believers" see what is happening?
Listen, I don't have all the answers and I don't pretend to. But a little logic goes a long way.
or many of the things being discussed (ie things that cannot be proven scientifically) your rigid thought has already ruled out possibility
When I was a child, I was scared to death of the dark, because of the monsters out there. If I still held that belief today, would you believers hold it against me?
I bet you would. So why don't I have that thought today? I mean, what if I thought that the monsters could only be seen by ME at night, when I was alone (and they also wouldn't show up if there was a detection device nearby)...
Would you then tell me that I was right?
"Little Sclorch, of course there are monsters there... they want to kill you. They'll wait until you go to sleep and..."
I don't think you would.
So, why am I no longer afraid of the dark?
Well, I never found any evidence to continue supporting that belief I had as a child. I logically concluded that I should no longer be scared of the dark, because there were no monsters out there.
Does this sound like the cold, hard, rigid, scientific logic that you hate so much?
--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...
|
infidelGOD
illusion
Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
|
Re: Are Believers Rational Beings? [Re: Sclorch]
#614832 - 04/21/02 03:25 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Afraid of the dark - afraid of the light?
"So, why am I no longer afraid of the dark?
Well, I never found any evidence to continue supporting that belief I had as a child. I logically concluded that I should no longer be scared of the dark, because there were no monsters out there."
I would like to hear your logic proving that monsters do not exist.
You found no evidece - so therefore it must not exist?
You know, I have a picture of a forest with NO bigfoot in it. It must mean that they don't exist. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
"belief 3: conviction of truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon esp. when based on (here we go) examination of EVIDENCE."
I don't know where you got this definition but it is certainly not the "belief" that we are discussing. I have "belief" in things that no amount of evidence can ever prove or disprove.
"Q: Why are believers so intolerant of good reasoning?
A: Because it would compromise their belief system."
I have a high tolerance for good reasoning.
According to your definition of "belief", logic is also a belief system because it is based on the examination of evidence. It is not my goal to compromise your belief system, your belief system is already limited by definition because logic is limited.
The real problem is that it is easier to defend skepticism than belief. When we believe in something, the burden of proof is on us, but the things we believe often cannot be proved. The skeptics see this as unacceptable because they demand PROOF of our beliefs. Well, they will never get it.
They say we are "intolerant of good reasoning" when it is often they who are intolerant.
As a believer, I am not intolerant of good reasoning. I always try to keep an "open mind" about being skeptical...
i just might switch over because I'm so sick of defending unprovable beliefs. It must be a lot easier to be a skeptic. But then, what fun is that?
|
Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
|
Re: Are Believers Rational Beings? [Re: infidelGOD]
#614941 - 04/21/02 06:26 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
I would like to hear your logic proving that monsters do not exist.
See what I have to deal with day and day out, Sclorch?
--------------------
The proof is in the pudding.
|
Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
|
Re: Are Believers Rational Beings? [Re: infidelGOD]
#614945 - 04/21/02 06:40 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
And why do you insist on grouping all believers together. I don't think you can fairly campare us with the WOD or religious zealots.
I am intuiting that you are actually asking a question.
If I said Al Gore had a beard and Bin Laden had a beard, would you ask me if I was accusing Al Gore of being a terrorist? No, I would be comparing a characteristic, not a moral code.
I said it was the same, unquestioning mindset (lack of rationality) that leads to irrational acts such as the WOD. These people (drug prohibitionists) accept certain things on faith without question or even supporting evidence.
I equated unquestioning mindsets with unquestioning mindsets. This is not a hard concept for a logical, rational mind to grasp.
--------------------
The proof is in the pudding.
|
JPAtanat
member
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 101
Last seen: 21 years, 10 months
|
Re: Are Believers Rational Beings? [Re: Sclorch]
#615075 - 04/21/02 10:13 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
infidel already mentioned many of the things that i would like to say...
Q: Why are rationalists so intolerant of things beyond reason?
A: Because it would compromise their belief system.
All I believe in is POSSIBILITY. I feel that science and logic inhibit you from seeing clearly. You see through the lens of reason, but reason is highly fallible. My intent is to remove all conditionings or lenses: science/logic, culture, social and behavioral conditionings - ALL CONDITIONING. It is my faith that that is the way to Truth. Whether you call it a blind faith or not is irrelevant. You have lots of lenses on, so you are not well equipped to judge whether or not anyone's faith is blind or not. I am interested in experience, right now, as it is. Classifying and conceptualizing does not interest me. However I absolutely do not hate science. I think that at this point it is essential. But it should not define or rule life. We should strive to eliminate any terms that rule our lives. You cannot deny your preesnt experience. That is what I want to learn about. That is why I came to this board - to discuss the possibilities of experience. Not to prove my experience to any skeptics. Really, there is no good reason to believe anything anyone says here. But thats a pretty shitty way to have a discussion, so maybe we should work more on suspending our disbelief and judgements and maybe we can have an open, productive conversation.
Peace.
|
infidelGOD
illusion
Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
|
Re: Are Believers Rational Beings? [Re: JPAtanat]
#615232 - 04/22/02 02:32 AM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
"I would like to hear your logic proving that monsters do not exist.
See what I have to deal with day and day out, Sclorch?"
You wouldn't have to deal with it if you stopped quoting people out of context.
Such tactics I expect from a high school debate team. But from the Swami?
|
|
Threaded
Previous
Index
Next
Edit 
Reply 
1 2 3 4 all )
Learyfan
seeker
Makaveli
Swami
Sclorch