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 Traveller
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 Believing 
#412076 - 10/03/01 02:08 AM (23 years, 3 months ago) |
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Why do we believe in things we do not know or understand? "afterlife", "god", "soul", "aliens"...why do we continue to believe what we are told, when that means believing that other people are wrong?
maybe when our children ask "what's this" we should say "I don't know, you tell me..." instead of simply repeating what we don't know to be true...
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 Swami
Eggshell Walker
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Re: Believing [Re: Traveller]
#412094 - 10/03/01 03:17 AM (23 years, 3 months ago) |
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People believe things because it gives them a false sense of security and disavows the responsibility for seeking and finding the answers on your own.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Adom
Totally Nude
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Re: Believing [Re: Traveller]
#412255 - 10/03/01 08:47 AM (23 years, 3 months ago) |
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Just because you don't understand or know doesn't mean others don't. With the correct path of spirituality you can have all of your questions answered for you and then some. I think its funny when people who haven't even taken the time to look for God question others believes because they are blind and its even funnier when people say we believe in these things only for self satifaction.
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gribochek
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Re: Believing [Re: Traveller]
#412292 - 10/03/01 09:20 AM (23 years, 3 months ago) |
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Traveller, do you believe in electrons, photons, quazars, neurons and saturated fat? Which of those are based on personal experience? How are aliens plotting to enslave Earth different from killer moskitos carrying the West Nile virus or from terrorists plotting to destroy the American Way? If you can make this distinction plausible, I'll be first one to renounce spirituality and start selling american flags to New Yorkers for two bucks a piece.
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You punish God, not the other way around.
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gribochek
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Re: Believing [Re: Adom]
#412297 - 10/03/01 09:26 AM (23 years, 3 months ago) |
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Adom, do you believe there is a single soul in this Universe who isn't looking for God? Do you also believe there is a single soul who has found Him? Why are you laughing then?
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You punish God, not the other way around.
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Adom
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Re: Believing [Re: gribochek]
#412308 - 10/03/01 09:37 AM (23 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yes I believe there are Souls that aren't looking for God. I also believe their are Souls that have found him. This person is saying disregard God, Souls, ect. because he has no proof, I find it more moronic than funny that people disregard God, ect. because they don't have personal experience when they haven't even looked.
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gribochek
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Re: Believing [Re: Adom]
#412321 - 10/03/01 09:51 AM (23 years, 3 months ago) |
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Is that what he is saying really? (Why do I keep playing devils advocate so much lately?) I think he is saying a) Don't believe others blindly b) don't think that others are wrong and you are right and c) be careful propagating your beliefs to others. Do you disagree with any of these?
Or I suppose you think you know where God hides or at least what one needs to do to find Him. Pray tell.
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You punish God, not the other way around.
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Adom
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Re: Believing [Re: gribochek]
#412330 - 10/03/01 10:06 AM (23 years, 3 months ago) |
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I didn't look at it that way, if that is the way he intended it then I couldn't agree more. Blind faith is unnacceptable, and will lead you no where, IME, and all my believes come from my personal experience, I wish every person would go on the personal search for spiritual truth.
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gribochek
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Re: Believing [Re: Adom]
#412336 - 10/03/01 10:14 AM (23 years, 3 months ago) |
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No, it is probably NOT the way he intended it. But as a person who doesn't understand the word God (which is OK, some kids don't understand the word Nuclear Physics) he is reacting to the hipe that surrounds it. One simply has to look at little bit beyond the obvious if "tolerance" and "understanding" are preached.
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You punish God, not the other way around.
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Traveller
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Re: Believing [Re: Adom]
#412867 - 10/03/01 07:41 PM (23 years, 3 months ago) |
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I'm not telling anyone to disregard god and souls and stuff but i've got so many friends who talk about their past lives and this and that and other friends who insist that humans are different because we have souls and other animals dont and man don't you think that's a bunch of pure pure crap? where's this soul? so far in my training i've only found mental images and physical sensations, NOTHING ELSE. NOTHING ELSE. shall I say it again? if i then take an image from a dream and say "past life" I am attaching a man-made ENGLISH label to something that I cannot possibly verify. if i feel a particularly powerful sensation arise in my heart or move up my spine into my brain and call it "spirit" or "soul" or "supersoul" (as i've heard the "heart chakra" called) am I not doing the same thing? i'm turning something real (sensation) into something made up...turning a genuine experience into just another word which can only be MISunderstood by anyone i mention it to.
you say it's funny that people disregard these things without looking, well there seem to be plenty who love the hippy philosophising enough to "believe" in a bunch of things they've never experienced for themselves.
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Traveller
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Re: Believing [Re: gribochek]
#412885 - 10/03/01 07:55 PM (23 years, 3 months ago) |
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No i don't believe in electrons, photons, and quazars.I belive in fat because i've experienced it, saturated fat is something i don't understand i'm afraid... i've done my physics so I believe that the THEORY of electrons MAKES SENSE, in that the ideas and the maths all work out to explain the phenomenon that I myself have observed in practical experiments. so i believe in the energy (force?) - whatever, that we call ELECTRICITY. i've observed trails left in CO2 vapour by theoretical subatomic particles...but i've also learned to levitate and flown through my primary school playground in my dreams. i've woken up standing above my own sleeping body but i have never seen an electron.
But I absolutely agree with your point, who should we believe? our parents? the church? the scientific community? all of these cause problems, the problem with believing the scientists is that most people have never studied the science themselves, they are content to believe it, and they are foolish enough to think that because the scientists know this stuff, that "we" also know it. bullshit!!!!!! physicists have accepted field theory and relativity (including the relativity of time) for decades but the average person isn't prepared to accept the chinese theory of "chi" because it's some eastern mumbo-jumbo, right? according to modern physics things like healing through or even without touch are perfectly possible but the wonderfully enlightened masses are not prepared to "believe" this because they really have no idea of what anyone, physicists chemists, stephen hawking or buddha, is talking about?!?!
excuse me i'm raving....
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Adom
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Re: Believing [Re: Traveller]
#413235 - 10/04/01 01:29 AM (23 years, 3 months ago) |
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I have traveled to places with out my physical body, I think I deserve to say I know I have a Soul.
Edited by Adom on 10/04/01 02:33 AM.
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Adom
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Re: Believing [Re: Traveller]
#413238 - 10/04/01 01:31 AM (23 years, 3 months ago) |
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<you say it's funny that people disregard these things without looking, well there seem to be plenty who love the hippy philosophising enough to "believe" in a bunch of things they've never experienced for themselves.
Like I said blind faith leads no were, was there a point in you saying this to me?
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Traveller
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Re: Believing [Re: Adom]
#413263 - 10/04/01 02:09 AM (23 years, 3 months ago) |
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aha! see this is the big problem isn't it, you say that travelling without your physical body means you have a "soul"! this is not necessarily what others talk about when they say soul though is it? as I said i've woken up to find myself "standing" above my sleeping body, seeing that body as another person and knowing that person was very cold. this wasn't "seeing" with my eyes at all but since i was dreaming i wasn't aware of the difference and i didn't think to wonder how i knew that guy down there was cold....ok but anyway "I" was not in my body at that time, so I now believe that there is a part of my totality which can travel and function outside of my physical body. is this a "soul"? i don't know, since people talk about our "soul" travelling up to heaven when we die, or this same "soul" being reincarnated into another body or floating around disembodied when the physical body dies....
i've also heard the terms "dreaming body" and "energy body", terms i like better than "soul" because they don't have any of the religious or cultural connotations.
All i KNOW is what happened, or what i remember of that event, and others. you can call that soul, you know what you have experienced and base your beliefs on that, which is what i'm saying we should all do, but we both agree that nobody should believe that all humans have a "soul" because you say you've travelled outside your physical body, right?
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Traveller
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Re: Believing [Re: Adom]
#413264 - 10/04/01 02:10 AM (23 years, 3 months ago) |
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yeah we're saying the same thing mate. blind faith leads nowhere.
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Swami
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Re: Believing [Re: Adom]
#413317 - 10/04/01 04:23 AM (23 years, 3 months ago) |
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No one to date has ever proven that Astral travel is not just imagination. Simple tests have been tried, but failed; i.e. astral travel to a place that you have never been before and describe it so that it matches consensus reality.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Adom
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Re: Believing [Re: Traveller]
#413489 - 10/04/01 09:30 AM (23 years, 3 months ago) |
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Right on, we agree that experience is the only means of finding truth. I see what your saying about Soul, but I stray away from mainstream religious believes and try not to get involved what so ever with them, so using words like that are usually associated with those sorts of things rarely bring up problems for me.
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Adom
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Re: Believing [Re: Swami]
#413492 - 10/04/01 09:33 AM (23 years, 3 months ago) |
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Its different than the physical plane so how would you be able to describe them the same. Your "scientific facts" or "studies" proove nothing to me. Don't even bother.
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gribochek
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Re: Believing [Re: Swami]
#413524 - 10/04/01 10:00 AM (23 years, 3 months ago) |
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Swami, some time long ago I was just like you. After that I became insane. It was because I was hanging out too much on drug-related sites and tried those maddening substances. Now I don't exist any longer (well, may be that gray piece of dust on the floor is me, I don't know).
Be afraid. Be very afraid. Same will happen to you if you keep hanging out here... I know you think it won't, but trust me, I thought the same thing... You may, in fact, even die...
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You punish God, not the other way around.
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Swami
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Re: Believing [Re: Adom]
#413586 - 10/04/01 10:53 AM (23 years, 3 months ago) |
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You have it backwards. First off, science cannot disprove some flight of imagination. However, it was the people claiming that astral travel was possible and amenable to proof, but under controlled circumstances were unable to validate their claims.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Anonymous
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Re: Believing [Re: Swami]
#413798 - 10/04/01 03:24 PM (23 years, 3 months ago) |
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>>You have it backwards. First off, science cannot disprove some flight of imagination. However, it was the people claiming that astral travel was possible and amenable to proof, but under controlled circumstances were unable to validate their claims.
Which is exactly the problem. The soul has no reason to prove itself to science. "Controlled Circumstances" usually involve a person in an uncomfortable environment, scientists all around, and a variety of sensors attached to every part of the body. Who would want to travel out of body in this fashion?
Aside from OBE's, there have been several incidents where clairvoyency has been proven in a laborotory setting, repeatedly.
A person was lying in one room, with blank walls and no view into anywhere else. In another room, a set of random numbers were above the door, facing the wall..only the person who put them up knew what the numbers were.
The clairvoyent person was asked to "see" the numbers as he claimed he could do. He did so, consistently, guessing the right numbers (in the correct order) 9 out of 10 times, they repeated this trial several times, changing the numbers each time, and he only got more accurate.
Of course, the scientists said he was cheating by using some external means of viewing the numbers (even though he was checked thoroughly before he went into the room, and was wearing the clothes they gave him) so the report was never available to mainstream media.
Since you probably think I'm making this up, I'll try and find a report written by a "scientist" that you can read.
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MokshaMan
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Re: Believing [Re: ]
#413813 - 10/04/01 03:39 PM (23 years, 3 months ago) |
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Just doing the same experiment with two seperate people and 4 objects, the same type of experiment was done. They expected the resultes to be about 25% just based on statistical luck; however, the results were consistently at 34% with almost everyone they tested(there were of course the anomalies, but I think its was something like 95% of the people were at 34%). This does seem to indicate that our sciences aren't exact and don't tell us everything. I think anyone that would say they do, is foolish. I would argue that science is the best thing we've found to explain the natural world thus far and will only get better.
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Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness.
-- George Owell
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Anonymous
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Re: Believing [Re: MokshaMan]
#413857 - 10/04/01 04:15 PM (23 years, 3 months ago) |
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I agree. I must state however, that I believe science will only get better when it has united with spirituality, and dropped all of the ignorant concepts of the past in light of new knowledge. Science has a hard time with this, since they are so used to doing things a certain way, that when presented with new information, instead of re-evaluating their procedures, they discredit the information as non-scientific or that it does not conform to their theories.
When science cannot explain something, they look for the answer, and develop a "theory" None of the theories can be proven until all the facts are present, which is impossible for so many things in our very limited third dimensional society.
Science will only get better through a combination of normal discovery and evolution, and being told what is fact by higher evolved beings who have "been there" and "seen that"
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Swami
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Re: Believing [Re: ]
#413961 - 10/04/01 05:34 PM (23 years, 3 months ago) |
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Which is exactly the problem. The soul has no reason to prove itself to science. "Controlled Circumstances" usually involve a person in an uncomfortable environment, scientists all around, and a variety of sensors attached to every part of the body. Who would want to travel out of body in this fashion?
A powerlifter makes the extraordinary claim that he can bench press 600 pounds. A karate expert makes the extraordinary claim that he can break 10 cinder blocks with one blow of his hand. An Olympic gymnast makes the extraordinary claim that he can do a triple flyaway from the high bar.
How could they possibly do these astounding feats with all those pesky spectators there to disrupt their psychic energy?
It's called training and focus.
Only in the nonsensical world of the "supernatural", must everyone in the audience already be a believer so that they are ripe to be duped.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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