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 In(di)go
People of the sun.
 
Registered: 10/29/00
Posts: 8,157
Loc: Cologne, Germany
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 Re: Believers and non-believers  [Re: Sclorch]
#624242 - 05/01/02 05:38 PM (21 years, 11 months ago) |
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sclorch... no wonder you?re ingnored... but im a believer... and i agree with living your life regret-free... cuz one learnes out of everything... and theres no use in regretting the past, cuz thats not who we are... its who we WERE...
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In(di)go
People of the sun.
Registered: 10/29/00
Posts: 8,157
Loc: Cologne, Germany
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first, id like to add that belief does not come from culture, it comes fro the heart...
and grimble_grumble... remember, there is no such thing as a coincidence... therefore the fact that before we started breathing air to live (we extract the chi, prana, mana, whatever you like to call it from the air), we absorbed that divine energy directly from the source through the pinneal gland, ain?t a coincidence either...
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Edited by Lozt Soul (05/01/02 05:57 PM)
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In(di)go
People of the sun.
Registered: 10/29/00
Posts: 8,157
Loc: Cologne, Germany
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Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: JPAtanat]
#624256 - 05/01/02 05:52 PM (21 years, 11 months ago) |
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In reply to:
Whereas I am not interested in the rules that the universe operates on, I am interested in the rules that my kernel of consciousness (soul/life-force) operates on, since that seems to be the fundamental ground of my being.
thats because your kernel of consciousness is made out of exactly the same matter the universe is made off... the soul is the essence of god, if you want to put it in those terms...
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In(di)go
People of the sun.
Registered: 10/29/00
Posts: 8,157
Loc: Cologne, Germany
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Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Swami]
#624267 - 05/01/02 06:05 PM (21 years, 11 months ago) |
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what LF is trying to say, is that he believes in god not because of the myths that were handed down, but because of his own experience with him...
and it is not hard for us believers to understand that you dont simply buy that handed down myths, because for you these stories are just that: MYTHS... but for us they are no myths anymore, they are plain and simple truth... and i have to confess that i once was where you were (thats why i understand), but my experience taught me... because i chose to experience what i did... but your choice is different, you chose not to experience god, and therefore you never will, until you change your mind about the subject... none of us will ever be able to give you the "proof" you want, and to be honest i dont actually want to do that... you can only do it for yourself, but you don?t want to (i cannot stress this enough)...
you on the other hand are trying to push your beliefs (or non beliefs in this case) on us, telling us how stupid our myths are, and how caught up in fantasy we are... but you wont be able to do it, cuz our experience beats any word anyone can ever say...
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: In(di)go]
#624285 - 05/01/02 06:47 PM (21 years, 11 months ago) |
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first, id like to add that belief does not come from culture, it comes fro the heart.
That is not even remotely true. Morals and religion are handed down from generation to generation. Very few stray from the pack and it takes tremendous external input to affect any change.
remember
Huh?
there is no such thing as a coincidence
According to you. This is another one of those New Age concepts that is meaningless and impossible to demonstrate.
..ain't a coincidence either...
The power of redundancy...
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: In(di)go]
#624308 - 05/01/02 07:15 PM (21 years, 11 months ago) |
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what LF is trying to say...
Say your own piece. He is capable of speaking his mind without an interpreter.
they are plain and simple truth...
Obviously not at all plain, else we would be living in a war and violence-free paradise.
...and i have to confess that i once was where you were (thats why i understand),
You know next to nothing about me. So now you believe in aliens?
but my experience taught me... because i chose to experience what i did... but your choice is different,
I am glad you found your purpose.
...you chose not to experience god,
So if I bow down to a bank window with a splotch that 10,000 believers worship as the Virgin Mary, then I too, will encompass the divine?
...none of us will ever be able to give you the "proof" you want...
Perhaps because there is no substance to your belief? Refer to Swami quote # 2...
and to be honest i dont actually want to do that...
You just said that you can't, so that is pointless.
you can only do it for yourself, but you don?t want to (i cannot stress this enough)...
Oh, plenty of people are capable of self-delusion, I do just not happen to be one of them. Stress away all you want, I have seen the results of fanatics wanting to believe. It is not a pretty sight. (Gee, look at the Middle East God-loving factions tearing each other's eyes out.)
you on the other hand are trying to push your beliefs (or non beliefs in this case) on us,
Seems reading comprehension errors, selective memory and fabrication are the hallmark of believers. I push nothing. I tell no one what to believe. When people make claims that they say are repeatable I ask for a demonstration. Power in prayer? Show me. Telekinesis? Show me. Asking is not pushing.
but you wont be able to do it, cuz our experience beats any word anyone can ever say...
I don't doubt the tenacity of deeply held beliefs. That tells me of the person and not the belief.
Lozt, let me make this simple (and this is the 20th time that I have asked) with nary an answer. If having God in your life makes it better, why do believers have almost exactly the same rate of alcoholism, divorce, suicide, child/spousal beating, drug addiction, obesity, mortality (throw in any other measurement you want) as atheists and agnostics? (Please don't point to small isolated cultures like the Amish.)
Forget analysing me. You know I will not accept a dance-around answer. And most of, please spare me the: "We are still human." bullshit excuse.
If one eats right and works out, they will have a superior body. End of story. If one taps into cosmic power, they will have a better life. End of story. But they don't. Why not?
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The proof is in the pudding.
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 SofaJesus
journeyman
Registered: 03/04/02
Posts: 69
Last seen: 21 years, 9 days
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Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Swami]
#624335 - 05/01/02 08:06 PM (21 years, 11 months ago) |
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Look, I think we just need to get to the point here.....
YOU EAT YOUR BREAD BUTTER SIDE UP
......anyone who doesnt is just crazy and we should go to war with them.....
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"...and to the left where up is down now stand a zebra made of shapes of me and silver and the sun so bring no guilt with you up above the flatline let's just hit the sky exploding into one." [ HUM ]
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Anonymous
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Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Learyfan]
#624346 - 05/01/02 08:13 PM (21 years, 11 months ago) |
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 LOVE  LIGHT String cheese
and awaaaaaaaaaaaay I go
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JPAtanat
member
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 101
Last seen: 21 years, 6 months
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Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Swami]
#624350 - 05/01/02 08:16 PM (21 years, 11 months ago) |
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f
Edited by JPAtanat (05/01/02 08:20 PM)
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JPAtanat
member
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 101
Last seen: 21 years, 6 months
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Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Swami]
#624352 - 05/01/02 08:17 PM (21 years, 11 months ago) |
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"there is no such thing as a coincidence" lost soulz
"According to you. This is another one of those New Age concepts that is meaningless and impossible to demonstrate." swami
Actually, this seems to me like the operating belief that science is tirelessly trying to demostrate.
Peace.
Edited by JPAtanat (05/01/02 09:09 PM)
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JPAtanat
member
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 101
Last seen: 21 years, 6 months
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Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: JPAtanat]
#624372 - 05/01/02 08:51 PM (21 years, 11 months ago) |
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But what I really want to know is:
"I think that maybe the difference between believers and non-believers is that non-believers want to figure themselves out in terms of the world around them, and with believers it is the other way around. I think it was evolving who had a rather eloquent post earlier about attempting to discover the rules that this universe operates on. Whereas I am not interested in the rules that the universe operates on, I am interested in the rules that my kernel of consciousness (soul/life-force) operates on, since that seems to be the fundamental ground of my being."
What do people think about this idea? I posted it earlier, but no one replied (except lost soulz, but i didn't really understand what he was trying to say). So, if you have any thoughts, I'd love to hear them.
Peace.
Edited by JPAtanat (05/01/02 08:53 PM)
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Danimal
journeyman
Registered: 04/12/02
Posts: 76
Last seen: 21 years, 4 months
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Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: JPAtanat]
#624379 - 05/01/02 08:58 PM (21 years, 11 months ago) |
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JPAanat:
Dare I say the most cursed phrase on this board, but...Do you have any proof showing that everything has it's own purpose and there are no coincidences. Seeing as you can't possibly dissect every coincident in the world, how about; do you have any references, logical(?) explanations, attempted experiments by yourself or others? I am not asking you this to be a snob and secretly hoping that you fail to produce anything. Instead, I have quickly grown tired of posts that contain a lot of words but say very little.
Peace folks.
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JPAtanat
member
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 101
Last seen: 21 years, 6 months
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Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Danimal]
#624385 - 05/01/02 09:07 PM (21 years, 11 months ago) |
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either you misunderstood my post, or I misunderstood your post, but I was actually replying to Swami, who was responding to the phrase "there's no such thing as a coincidence" which was i believe originally made by lost soulz.
i am sorry if it was unclear, and im sorry if i totally misunderstood your response.
Peace.
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infidelGOD
illusion
Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
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Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: JPAtanat]
#624583 - 05/02/02 02:21 AM (21 years, 11 months ago) |
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JPAtanat:
in response to your post,
I think that both believers and non believers understand the world in terms of themselves. Non believers think that logic is a fundamental truth of the universe. But it is only a fundamental truth of our way of thinking. It cannot reveal truth beyond ourselves.
I make no distinction between the rules of the universe and the rules of my consciousness. When we think we are studying the universe, we are actually studying our perception of the universe. The true universe will remain forever hidden from us. Both believer and skeptic only have perceptions to go by. We are all on the same boat.
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Johnny Prophet
Stranger
Registered: 04/15/00
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Last seen: 21 years, 11 months
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Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: JPAtanat]
#624611 - 05/02/02 03:19 AM (21 years, 11 months ago) |
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If you derive pleasure from being logical, proving believers wrong and such, then there is nothing wrong with being a non-believer. However, if there were someone who didn't derive pleasure from being logical, but instead found joy in faith, wouldn't it be logical for them to be faithful? I think a lot of logical people would agree that we are all just matter that is arranged in such a way as to have desires, and then try and satisfy those desires. Some of us happen to be arranged so that we desire something unexplainable to believe in and then we satisfy that need with belief. In this way, faith seems to be a completely logical consequence of the starting conditions, so what is there to argue about?
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: ]
#624628 - 05/02/02 04:06 AM (21 years, 11 months ago) |
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I too, believe in string cheese. Gimme a chunk of that skim-milk Mozzarella.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Nomad
Mad Robot
Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 16 years, 3 months
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Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Learyfan]
#624637 - 05/02/02 04:20 AM (21 years, 11 months ago) |
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Hi, everyone. I'm Nomad.
Essentially, we are all believers. Not believing in anything is what makes you a Buddha. So, assuming that none of us is enlightened, and that, with this in mind, it is pretty useless to pretend being enlightened, we might as well do what unenlightened people normally do, that is, kick the unity and divide the universe into parts. But since we are going to do so anyway, we might as well choose distinctions that make sense. Here's a suggestion:
There are two kinds of people:
Person (1) believes in order to achieve effects.
Person (2) believes, and considers belief as an end in itself.
And here are some examples. (I'm going to give examples which I consider at least marginally interesting, not those which are painfully obvious.)
Someone believes in aliens, because this belief makes life more interesting for him. That's Person (1).
Someone believes in the christian God, in order to avoid burning in hell for the next zillion years. That's Person (2).
Someone believes in reincarnation, in order to overcome his fear of death. That's Person (1).
Someone believes in newtonian physics, because he feels that this is how the universe "really is". That's Person (2).
nomad
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In(di)go
People of the sun.
Registered: 10/29/00
Posts: 8,157
Loc: Cologne, Germany
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Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Swami]
#624657 - 05/02/02 05:23 AM (21 years, 11 months ago) |
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In reply to:
Lozt, let me make this simple (and this is the 20th time that I have asked) with nary an answer. If having God in your life makes it better, why do believers have almost exactly the same rate of alcoholism, divorce, suicide, child/spousal beating, drug addiction, obesity, mortality (throw in any other measurement you want) as atheists and agnostics? (Please don't point to small isolated cultures like the Amish.)
thats because you?re looking at the wrong kind of believers... and thats a prejudice... the moment you hear that word, an image pops up in your mind... the image of a religious person...
and well, those people you talk about are religious... and ill try and explain why they behave the way they do... they are beeing slaves of a system... they are trying to grasp with their mind what can only be comprehended and embraced with the heart... they are beeing told a million different things, and all contradict each other... and whats worse, they even believe blindly in them... but most of those believers haven?t found the real light... they believe out of culture... they believe cuz they are told so (in that case you my friend are more evolved, cuz you question the system), because they think they are doing right... but they aren?t even able to grasp the basical idea of it... WE ARE ALL ONE... there are many religious people i know, who have become better persons since joining faith... organized faith... and altough i dont agree with everything they say, i find they are great human beeings...
in my case, on the other hand... no one told me what to believe... i am not part of any organized religion... i believe what i believe, cuz my experience taught me so... and i will state (i know learyfan is gonna agree with me on this) my life has become better since i believe... and i have become a better person... i stopped beeing an ass to people... i stopped always thinking about myself... i stopped judging people... and well, im not perfect... but i dont have to be in order to be a children of Life...
In reply to:
...you chose not to experience god,
So if I bow down to a bank window with a splotch that 10,000 believers worship as the Virgin Mary, then I too, will encompass the divine?
man besides of beeing close minded you also have a weak sense of humor... i never told you to follow the myths... to do what most believers do... to be one of the mass... i told you to get your own experiences... and the only way to do that is to find your inner light... go inside, not outside... couse that is where your gonna find the source of all...
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Edited by Lozt Soul (05/02/02 05:25 AM)
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In(di)go
People of the sun.
Registered: 10/29/00
Posts: 8,157
Loc: Cologne, Germany
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Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Swami]
#624663 - 05/02/02 05:43 AM (21 years, 11 months ago) |
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In reply to:
Seems reading comprehension errors, selective memory and fabrication are the hallmark of believers. I push nothing. I tell no one what to believe. When people make claims that they say are repeatable I ask for a demonstration. Power in prayer? Show me. Telekinesis? Show me. Asking is not pushing.
as i (and i bet a dozen other people) said bout a million times, the proof you need youll only find if you look for it yourself... and well, you say you?re not pushing... then what is the purpose of all your posts? you try to destroy and turn around every word we post... your not asking for proof, you are trying to destroy our faith, otherwise you wouldnt be so bitchy about any subject you dont believe in... and i know we?re wasting the time on you with this, but actually all these posts are not for you my friend, but for other more openminded persons who are able to lead an actual discussion... and its the same the other way round... you are wating your time, you will never take our faith from us, the only difference is, your offensive posts are made directly towards us... but well...
In reply to:
I don't doubt the tenacity of deeply held beliefs. That tells me of the person and not the belief.
well in my case it tells you about the belief... cuz i don?t believe it anymore, i KNOW it... it?s FACT for me... as much a fact as gravity... i know ill probably be flamed for this, but if i were you id check on it, and ask myself whats about all this stuff that can make me so convinced...
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: In(di)go]
#624671 - 05/02/02 06:03 AM (21 years, 11 months ago) |
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thats because you?re looking at the wrong kind of believers... and thats a prejudice...
And how does one determine the "right" kind of believer as a role model?
i stopped beeing an ass to people... i stopped judging people
Sounds good.
...Man besides of beeing close minded ...
Apparently your previous statement was hyprocritical bullshit as here you are making a judgement, and an erroneous one at that.
So if I bow down to a bank window with a splotch that 10,000 believers worship as the Virgin Mary, then I too, will encompass the divine?
you also have a weak sense of humor...
*Sigh* More judgement. Some people find me very funny. Perhaps it is your sense of humor that is lacking. The really funny part is that I did NOT make this up.
i believe what i believe, cuz my experience taught me so...
As did the 10,000 people previously mentioned. My point being that experience is subject to erroneous interpretation. These people, however wacky they seem from the swami point of view, were very sincere in their faith and quite certain of the authenticity of the experience.
Do you NOT get what I am saying here?
there are many religious people i know, who have become better persons since joining faith...
And just as many who have not, else the major religions would not clash in war, nor would priests molest little boys... Thus your personal anecdote means nothing to me.
i told you to get your own experiences...
And my experiences have not pointed to any divine connection. Meditation, philosophical and religious study, vegetarianism, volunteer work, yoga, psychedelics, work, sports, relationships, travel, music - none have given me a taste of cosmic oneness.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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