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InvisibleMakaveli
OG
Registered: 04/02/99
Posts: 1,700
Loc: NY
Do you really believe in a god?
    #247376 - 11/17/99 11:50 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Hello Shroomery.

This has been a question of mine for quite some time now. But first I would like you to know that I am (technically) a Roman Catholic. I was curious if any of you actually, whole heartedly believe in a god, or some supreme being. At this time I am unsure of my beliefs. These questions come to mind when I think if there actually is a god: Why do bad things happen? For example, I had a grandfather whom I was extremely close to, and a few weeks ago, he died. I ask myself, why did this happen, he was a devout follower of Christianity, yet he still died and left many loved ones who were also Catholics? Why? And how can one believe there is an afterlife? Has anyone seen it? Supposedly a place where there is eternal happiness, or a place of endless suffering? I also ask if there is a god, why hasnt he/she actually shown himself/herself in present day? It just doesnt make much sense to me. But to contradict myself somewhat, i then think to myself, where did the universe come from? There had to be nothing, then something. But how could this be? Science can not explain this, nor many other things. Then I also fear that if i dont believe in God that i may actually be condemed on judgement day.

I hope some of you can make some sense of where im coming from.

Thank you.



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InvisibleIshmael
enthusiast

Registered: 10/29/99
Posts: 224
Re: Do you really believe in a god? [Re: Makaveli]
    #247377 - 11/17/99 12:01 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I know what you're going through, as I lost my grandfather recently, as well. But you seem to be taking death in the wrong context. Death is a part of life. Belief, one way or another, cannot impede that fact. Death is just like Birth, a transition, a change. It is fear that is causing your uncertainty. But it is attachment that is causing your grief for your grandfather. You're upset that you'll never get to see or talk to your grandfather again. So the reasoning behind grief is almost, in a way, selfish. But grief is also positive in that it provokes thought in the vein that you're trying to articulate. But don't rely on other people too much in regards to your beliefs, they are yours afterall. You have to find your own truth in this world. If you're open to it, you can skim over this BBS section and find many varied takes on God. Maybe you'll find one that better suits your purpose.

Ish.



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Anonymous

Re: Do you really believe in a god? [Re: Makaveli]
    #247378 - 11/17/99 12:52 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

You talk like dying is a bad thing. Isn't this the time you get to finally meet the bugger you been followin for your whole life? That's at least what I hear from the worlds biggest religion yet. As far as "god" showin his face around town, you never know, you might have already met him/her. Maybe indescretion is the callin card of the new messiah. My advice, crap that it is, is to go check out some books on theosophy. If you're gonna bother with god at least see what lies beyond "the book".


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Anonymous

Re: Do you really believe in a god? [Re: Makaveli]
    #247379 - 11/17/99 01:32 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

What you are talking about is known in philosophical debates as "The Problem of Evil", being that if there is an omnipotent, omniscient and all-loving God, why is there evil in the world?

If you believe in a "personal" God that takes an interest in your very own little life, this problem is most hard to deal with. A very good answer is that "evil" and things that hurt us have a place in this world and our spiritual development. It can also be explained that God does not take sides (as is so obviously the case) and very few things are "evil" from all perspectives. For example, to be devoured by wolves is a pretty evil thing for an Elk, but not so evil for the herd in general, and is actually a good thing for the wolves. I beleive it is the same for human morals, and as such I am a moral relativist - a concept that few people understand in the smallest way.

As for your last questiona about judgement day, dont sweat it. I was raised catholic too and went throught this.

Do you think God is a petty immature egotistical baby who is going to torment souls in all eternity because they did not have the right beliefs or follow some silly metaphysical protocol?? No Way!!. Hell and eternal damnation are contsructions of petty power hungry men that invoked the supernatural to help get power over others. Fuck 'em.

I do not know if there is a god in such a sense, or even a heaven, but I have complete faith that the only hell is made by us here on earth. I am willing to risk eternal damnation for my faith, any god that violates the spirit in such a way is no god but a demon and should be opposed. I also tend to believe that Heaven is here to be found on earth as well. If there is a heaven above, I believe that everyone gets in, even the Hitlers.

------------------
The combined symbol for Ernie and Bert.



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Anonymous

Re: Do you really believe in a god? [Re: Makaveli]
    #247380 - 11/18/99 01:38 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I'm technically a Roman Catholic as well.
I think God is selfish.


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OfflineHatta
GodlessAnarchist

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 364
Last seen: 4 years, 6 months
Re: Do you really believe in a god? [Re: Makaveli]
    #247381 - 11/18/99 02:02 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Mak, I am an agnostic. I don't rule out the possibility, but for now the evidence favors god's non-existance. About, Judgement Day, and all. You say "What if". I say that's a false dichotomy. There are infinite what if's What if, Jesus was a fraud, and the true god condemns you for following him. What if there are many gods, and they ask to which you are allied on judgement day. What if(as in the Far Side cartoon) Colonel Sanders arrives at the pearly gates, and finds them adorned with chicken ornamentation? And so on. Take what's plausible.

Casaxus, I'm reminded of The Simpson's episode in which The Flander's house is destroyed by a hurricane. Maude emerges and says "Oh Neddie, I was so scared, I thought I was going to the eternal bliss of paradise."

And FluffyBob's post reminds me of another Simpsons episode where Todd flanders is praying, "...And thank you God, for sending Lisa to save us from the bug you sent"

Bob, can you talk some more on what you mean by moral relativism?(probably another post) Thanks
-Mad Hatter



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Anonymous

Re: Do you really believe in a god? [Re: Makaveli]
    #247382 - 11/18/99 06:47 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

To be quite honest I do not believe in god at all.I was raised a Luthern and stopped believeing some years ago.

For me its not merely how could god let such suffering occur in the world but simply I do not really believe in alot of the doctrines of christanity.I don't really like it,the more I read the bible the less I like it.Its just the way I am, now all religion sort of repels me.

Now I am not trying nor will I try to convince you that what I think is right, its right for me and that is it.Its a matter of choice and what you need out of life.Some desire to make that leap of faith and that is very admirable,The only time I do not like it is when those that make that leap of faith say things like they feel sorry for those that do not,or that those of us that choose another path are somehow lacking in something, that I would say is wrong.Its really simple do you desire to make that leap of faith or not?I think it is healthy to question things and you shouldn't keep up the premise of being christian out of fear.You say you are afraid to not believe.Here is what it comes down to, some part of you question all this and that parts questions need some kind of answer.Being afraid to question your faith will not make the questions go away.You have to ask yourself how much do you truly believe and how much do you accept because you were raised that way?

In the end only you can answer these things and only you can choose which way is right.Good luck to you.

------------------
"Were bigger than Jesus Christ right now..."
-John Lennon(1966)



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Anonymous

Re: Do you really believe in a god? [Re: Makaveli]
    #247383 - 11/18/99 07:34 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I haven't read all these post properly but i thought i'd comment. I consider myself to be agnostic, there has to be a higher power but what. Anyway I've been dead and there is no light at the end of the tunnel, or even a tunnel. just to explain, a motorbike crash killed me & put me in a coma for 3 days, intensive care 2 weeksand my left arm is paralysed still.(crashed in april) I may not have been dead for long enough to experience this, I have heard that lack of oxygen causes the light and tunnel phenomena to occur. you'd think that a near death experience like that would make me appreciate life more but now my outlook is "Care Factor 0".
I'm already dead. Flipper


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OfflineTheGavinites
member
Registered: 01/09/99
Posts: 34
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: Do you really believe in a god? [Re: Makaveli]
    #247384 - 11/18/99 08:27 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Scientific proof of God would negate faith.

As I see it, the strongest battle of the christian faith is that of belief.

all "evidence" is subjective and can be used to prove either answer ( usually pre-determined in the mind of the asker)

As I have been told, another tenant of most christian faiths is that of free will to choose.

Having an all powerful God tearing about the place and vacationing in a golden city in the sky for all to see would make faith, )and to a lesser extent freedom of choice to beleive or not) irrelevant.



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OfflineTheGavinites
member
Registered: 01/09/99
Posts: 34
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: Do you really believe in a god? [Re: Makaveli]
    #247385 - 11/18/99 08:42 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I think I missed the whole point I was building up to... some philosopher, me! :smile:

I guess what I am trying to say is that from my light skimming of the subject, is seems that (for the reasons of my previous post), that the christian God would make himself
"unprovable"

Otherwise there would be no faith.

For reasons I can't quite explain (or prove)
I choose to believe in God.

(I have big time problems with most of the
christian church, but that's a whole other post :smile: )





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OfflineSpringbok
enthusiast
Registered: 09/16/99
Posts: 82
Loc: Ehime, Japan
Last seen: 14 years, 9 months
Re: Do you really believe in a god? [Re: Makaveli]
    #247386 - 11/18/99 11:55 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

There is no god--at least not one as simplistic and culturally based as the one found in the Christian Bible or the Koran.

Springbok



--------------------
---------------------------------------------
"What does it all mean, Mr. Natural..?"
- Art Crumb


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Anonymous

Re: Do you really believe in a god? [Re: Makaveli]
    #247387 - 11/19/99 12:11 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Why do bad things happen?

Well according to Genesis it's man who fucked the whole deal up. Death was a result of man's choice to disobey God.

But that's according to Genesis...

To me, the hand of God could be seen in the sun rising and the sun setting. Just look around. Also, look at the prophecies in the Bible, especially referring to the last days of earth, they all match up perfectly with our modern times.

I really don't know what I belive though.



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Invisibleinbetween
addict
Registered: 09/14/99
Posts: 83
Loc: maps
Re: Do you really believe in a god? [Re: Makaveli]
    #247388 - 11/19/99 12:36 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

God is dead because we killed him with fact finding. People pervert God because they feel other people are perverse. I believe God is an experience, and all religions started through an experience that was considered important enough to try to pass on. When Buddha became enlightened he could have called the basic ground God but he didn't feel it was necessary. Jesus was a jew and therefore called his experience God. Which is not to imply that Buddha and Jesus had the same spiritual experience, their teachings differ too much for that to be true. Whatever the case too much of humanity's imagination has been caught up in trying to find God for there not to be anything at all. It is just beyond anything we can normally experience. Carl Jung used to tell the story that the reason God doesn't appear to people anymore is because no one knows how to bow low enough.


--------------------
my vocabulary did this to me


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Anonymous

Re: Do you really believe in a god? [Re: Makaveli]
    #247389 - 11/19/99 01:20 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I have been going over this my whole life, like most people I guess. From my experience and what I feel and learned, I believe there is a God. Most of the time I feel God is a piece of everyone and everything. I also feel that God is love, or love is God? It might sound weird but I have always felt I love everyone. Hmm, it's too hard to explain most of what I feel, but in the case of God, I believe he's (genderless though) everywhere. I also believe everyone is accepted in the afterlife in some way. I don't know which of the religions ideas for an afterlife is correct, maybe it could even be whatever you expected it to be? Who knows. All I know is that I love everyone and everything. I belive this is the essence of God. I am always learning and adapting my beliefs however, so my feelings change the more I search. As I've said in my other posts I love you all! One more thing... I wish I could say stuff like that more often but I can't in this society. I feel like hugging people many times and I can't. Things like that are tough for me do deal with at times. Thanks for reading my post! Don't Worry, Be Happy!


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Anonymous

Re: Do you really believe in a god? [Re: Makaveli]
    #247390 - 11/19/99 05:47 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

As a pagan, it's a mite easier for me on the whole "What is God?" question. At least compared to Xtians. After all, when somebody asks me that question, I can just drag em to the top of a mountain (or down to the sea shore, into an old growth forest, through the stillness of a desert at twilight...). And I can just point all around me, and say "There She Be". Gaia. The Mother of us All. She's all around us, cause it's all just really a part of Her.

And I can back that up to. Lovelock's Theory of Gaia has gained considerable acceptance within the scientific community. Because the evidence supports the conclusion. That all life here on the Third Rock should/must be viewed as part of an interconnected super organism, which self regulates itself in order to make the conditions nessecary for life possible.

Not to say that She's some benign, all loving and caring Mother Nature type (out of a modern fairy tale and a margerine commercial). Cause She can also be the Ultimate Bitch. If you cross Her, or pretend She doesn't matter and insist on building your house in a flood/earthquake/avalanche/costal hurricane zone, best to look out. You might get away with it, your kids might too, but their kids...it all catches up in the end.

Same with living your life. Gaia is about dynamic balance. She's not a static landscape, cause the one constant here on the Third Rock is change. But through it all, life manages to find the levals of interactive balance which makes for day to day existance. Upset that balance, and look for a correction to occur. Which is viewable as Gaia's way of laying the smack down on whatever tries to knock things way off kilter. LOL, too many lemmings? Where's that cliff? (And yes, I know that lemmings don't really jump over cliffs. But the image was too perfect. And being of the Irish, I'm not adverse to putting a bit of a shine on the truth, and telling things with a wee improvement. Heeheehee)

This has been a Public Pagan Service Announcement...



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Anonymous

Re: Do you really believe in a god? [Re: Makaveli]
    #247391 - 11/19/99 09:06 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

This all really doesn't have much to do with the original question, but more to do with title of the thread:


No, I don't believe in god. There may have been a creator, but it/they were not a "god" that needs to be worshiped, or even out that stuck around to find out how its creation was doing. If something or someone created us, we ceritinaly wouldn't have been the only version of us tryed, so, why out of the entire vast universe, would they focus on us? I believe that people invented god (as represented in all the major religions of the world) to explain natural phenomina, and to anwser questions that they couldn't anwser. "where do we go when we die?", "how did we get here?", "why are we here?". The major religions based their anwsers on what they knew of the world around them. At that time they didn't know much. Its incredible that today, when we know some much more about the world around us, people still acsept the anwsers that the major religions provide. The reason for this is that religion is imbedded into our society, its passed down through tradition and any "non-believers" are traditionaly ostracised.

The only "religion" I believe in is that of an open mind. I don't know all the anwsers and i would never claim that i would. But what I do is try and educate my self to the best of my ability before making any decision about what I believe. When I thought about it, the major religions just didn't make sense, this is why I don't believe in them. There are too many people out there who don't take the time to think. They just take life at face value and spend all of their time doing what other people tell them to. They try and fit in, make themselves popular, they are so caught up with their stupid little lives that they never take the time to think about why. And then they die, and its over, and their life, which they thought was so important doesn't matter worth shit. So, why waste your time trying to go with the flow? Keep an open mind, other wise you will always be a prisioner to yourself.

Also, a question to all these "specialty religions" wicca, witchcraft, pegan, satianist, etc, do you all really believe in that stuff, or do you just like the way it feels when people pay attention to you because you are a that religion? Not to put you down or anything, im just wondering. Any intelligent anwser ill be happy to listen to, i never reject anything at face value.

Isn't this Philosophy section great?



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InvisibleFrozenHappiness
Professional Cereal Box

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 4,185
Loc: Nagoon Lagoon
Re: Do you really believe in a god? [Re: Makaveli]
    #247392 - 11/20/99 02:22 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Yes, I honestly and wholeheartedly believe in god, it just happened recently too, like all of a sudden i knew there was a god, a director behind the scenes watching us, applauding our love, and frowning at our hate .

I cant bring my self to believe there is no god because bad things happen in the world, he just gives us our life and his love and sends us on a merry way, not pampering us everyday of our life, actually pain and suffering purifies when your strong. So just be strong and tough it out, and if your open to suggestion put your faith in him.
If not, dont, but we gotta beleive in somting right?

------------------
Lunacy is when we no longer see the seems where our dreams and reality have been stitched together



--------------------


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Anonymous

Re: Do you really believe in a god? [Re: Makaveli]
    #247393 - 11/20/99 12:17 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I don't beleive in anything. Period. I just theorize and observe. Oh yeah, and this philosophy section is great, I hang out in this forum more than all of the other forums combined.

-rEvolutionist



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OfflineSpringbok
enthusiast
Registered: 09/16/99
Posts: 82
Loc: Ehime, Japan
Last seen: 14 years, 9 months
Re: Do you really believe in a god? [Re: Makaveli]
    #247394 - 11/20/99 12:26 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Frozen Happiness,

Hate burst your bubble, but there is nothing so special about human beings, that a "God" sits around and watches us...

This is just another example of cultural egotism at work. People think that since we have evolved brains and self awareness, that there must be some great "creator" and "watcher" of all this...

In reality, we are merely the latest evolutionary step off this mold known as "life" on Earth. who knows, if there is a God, maybe he is getting ready to Lysol the planet??? After all, life doesn't appear to be doing the planet too many favours.

Who knows.

Springbok



--------------------
---------------------------------------------
"What does it all mean, Mr. Natural..?"
- Art Crumb


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Offlineinsectvhore
lord of flies

Registered: 07/10/99
Posts: 1,233
Last seen: 2 months, 1 day
Re: Do you really believe in a god? [Re: Makaveli]
    #247395 - 11/20/99 12:52 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

i see "god" as just an idea
if you believe the idea then it exists
if you don't than it doesn't exist

i do not believe in god

god-theory is just a primitive paradigm based on hive authority perpetuated through the herd by its inclination to obedience and need for superiority

it is a subjective being, not existing outside of a mind, but does anything?



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