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InvisibleSwami
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The Catholic Church, Politics and Morality
    #2764287 - 06/04/04 08:18 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

As a moral Catholic, one is not supposed to support a candidate that allows abortion, but it is apparently OK to support a candidate who believes in killing adults.  :rolleyes:


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: The Catholic Church, Politics and Morality [Re: Swami]
    #2764334 - 06/04/04 09:23 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Eh, makes about as much sense as any other religious dogma.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineZahid
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Re: The Catholic Church, Politics and Morality [Re: Swami]
    #2764450 - 06/04/04 10:20 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Get some new material.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: The Catholic Church, Politics and Morality [Re: Swami]
    #2764755 - 06/05/04 12:19 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

The way I see it is people are fucked up all over the world, no matter whether they have a religious dogma or not. 

The thing I'm set about doing at this time in my life is to learn to accept people for their fuck-ups as well as their good parts.

People are fucked up in many ways, not solely in their religious beliefs.  Regardless of religious beliefs, people lie, cheat, steal, etc.  People try to take advantage, for their own good or gain.

I'm going to try to learn to overlook people's ills.  See, I don't do what most people do.  I know you're all going to scoff at me, and go ahead.  But I mostly don't lie, cheat or steal.  I say "mostly" because I lied once last year, maybe twice (although I can't remember the second lie, if I told one), and I think I did a couple of "white" lies this year so far.  I usually don't lie, for the most part. 

When I've associated with a person who lies cheats or steals, I usually disassociate myself.  But now, at this ripe old age, I am learning that MOST MOST MOST people lie cheat and/or steal.  I can't disassociate myself from everyone, or I will find myself utterly alone.

So, when you want to bitch about people who do wrong things that are Catholic, or Christian, or Baptist, or whatever, just keep in mind that you are of the human race, and IMO, they are the more fucked up than Catholics.  You belong to THAT group. 

So go ahead and keep pointing at the Catholics.  You still belong to the most fucked up group of people on earth...humans.

:grin:


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineTao
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Re: The Catholic Church, Politics and Morality [Re: Swami]
    #2764844 - 06/05/04 12:43 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

As a moral Catholic, one is not supposed to support a candidate that allows abortion, but it is apparently OK to support a candidate who believes in killing adults.




funny you say that, i just realized that blatant hypocrisy the other day. i dont know why the media doesn't point it out more (ive seen tons of anti-kerry catholic specials). i take it zahid has heard that a lot, but i certainly havent in the mainstream media nor the ny times article i read on the subject.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Catholic Church, Politics and Morality [Re: Zahid]
    #2764911 - 06/05/04 12:58 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Get some new material...

This is very recent and may affect the coming election.


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The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (06/05/04 01:32 AM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Catholic Church, Politics and Morality [Re: Frog]
    #2764968 - 06/05/04 01:08 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Editor's note: Perhaps this should be in the Politicical Forum, but is does fit here as well.

So, when you want to bitch about people who do wrong things that are Catholic, or Christian, or Baptist, or whatever, just keep in mind that you are of the human race, and IMO, they are the more fucked up than Catholics. You belong to THAT group.

You miss the point my dear froggy. It is not about me singling out a group, it is about Catholic Bishops publicly telling Americans how to vote because abortion is against God's will because they see it as murder and against the teachings of Christ. Fair enough, I have no problem with that.

My question is why does the bombing and torture of civilians NOT go against the teachings of Christ? Why is it OK to vote for a war-monger, one who pushes the death penalty, and one who spends billions, not on helping and creating, but on death and destruction?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: The Catholic Church, Politics and Morality [Re: Swami]
    #2765020 - 06/05/04 01:31 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

This is very recent and may effect the coming election.




"Affect", not "effect", my good man.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: The Catholic Church, Politics and Morality [Re: Swami]
    #2765021 - 06/05/04 01:32 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

But don't you see, my dear Swami? It doesn't matter that there are inconsistencies in the Catholic church. There are inconsistencies throughout the human population. Solve that problem, and maybe you will solve the problems inherent in the Catholic church.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineFrog
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Re: The Catholic Church, Politics and Morality [Re: Frog]
    #2765065 - 06/05/04 01:57 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I guess my point is that people are human, first and foremost. Then, they are Catholic, or Republican, or whatever.

The fucked up part of every part of society, whether it be religious dogma or political dogma boils down to our humanity, first.

Fix the human, then everything else will fall into place.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: The Catholic Church, Politics and Morality [Re: Swami]
    #2765200 - 06/05/04 02:57 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

but it is apparently OK to support a candidate who believes in killing adults

Well of COURSE it's OK! "They" haven't taken Christ into their heart!

Welcome to our version of the crusades...or at least I'm sure many fundamentalist Christians would like to think of it as so :smirk:


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Offlinenubious
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Re: The Catholic Church, Politics and Morality [Re: trendal]
    #2768102 - 06/06/04 03:53 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Religon has been the biggest hinderance to society in the 20th century (IMO). I'm hoping one day people will just pull out of it and work together, regardless of shit written millions of years ago. It's the message that counts - not the upholding of justice to those who don't get the message.


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No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.


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OfflineTwirling
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Re: The Catholic Church, Politics and Morality [Re: Swami]
    #2768529 - 06/06/04 11:29 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Someone wrote a letter to the editor in my local newspaper stating that it's a sin for Catholics to vote for an "anti-abortion" president.


I wrote a follow up letter which got printed, stating that when a vote is controlled by a single issue, you lose the ability to elect leaders based on their actual merit. Voting for Bush simply because he happens to have the same religouis beliefs or stance on an issue or two, really overlooks his failures as a president. Forbidding people to vote for Kerry simply because he's pro-choice, as is what the Catholic church is doing, is extremely dangerous and mixes the desires of a single church with politics.

Now, if someone actually likes Bush and wants to vote for him, yeah, they're probably insane, but at least it's based on evauluating his merit as a leader (or lack there of). It's a shame that people feel they have to do exactly what a religion tells them in order to be considered a "good Catholic". It's even more of a shame when that affects the policies for everyone else.


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The very nature of experience is ineffable; it transcends cognitive thought and intellectualized analysis. To be without experience is to be without an emotional knowledge of what the experience translates into. The desire for the understanding of what life is made of is the motivation that drives us all. Without it, in fear of the experiences what life can hold is among the greatest contradictions; to live in fear of death while not being alive.



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OfflineGrav
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Re: The Catholic Church, Politics and Morality [Re: Swami]
    #2768543 - 06/06/04 11:36 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

In wartime, you can pretend you're conquering evil.
It's hard to find that angle with unborn babies I guess.


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Invisibletekramrepus
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Re: The Catholic Church, Politics and Morality [Re: Grav]
    #2769636 - 06/06/04 07:08 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

"Religon" has not, and is not a problem. It never has been. No wars have been fought because of religon, so don't give me that crap.


The error is human in nature, and religion (the harmful kind) is a PRODUCT of this error.


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OfflineEgoTripping
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Re: The Catholic Church, Politics and Morality [Re: tekramrepus]
    #2769664 - 06/06/04 07:17 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

From a great NDE experience I just read:

Across the ages, as he did in the Garden of Eden, God still calls out to man:

"Where are you, Adam?"

Man, with the help of the dogmas of Western Christianity, has lost his way, and sees himself totally separated from God because Western Christianity through the Roman Catholic Church stressed fallen man, with Jesus dying for our sins on the cross. The churches have not explained our potential as gods, with our God-given creative power, and how necessary it is for us to be under the guidance of the Holy Spirit of God when we use this power. Quoting Psalms 82:6, Jesus asked:

"Is it not written in your law, I said, you are gods?"

St. Irenaeus, a famous early Christian leader stated that God became a human being in order that human beings might become God. I would change what he said only to the degree that I would say that Jesus showed us the God that God, our Father created us to be.

Instead the churches lead us to believe that the church was given the authority to decide who was going to heaven, and that those who didn't join their particular denomination were going to hell. This is incongruous with the teachings of Jesus, the Christ, who told us the tale of the prodigal son not only to help us understand the love and forgiveness of God but to help us understand that the prodigal son is the cosmic tale of each and every human being. We have all forgotten that we are sons and daughters of the most high God; that our spiritual side, the soul of man, needs to return to have total fellowship with the Father. To do this we have to come to ourselves and realize that in this human realm of existence, our human, selfish side has led us down the road of materialism and of living only for ourselves, which caused us to turn away from our Father and our divine destiny and forget who we are. It caused our spiritual death.

Jesus went on the cross to show us that we must die to this human egotistical side in order to let the soul of man, which has carried the knowledge of who it is and from whence it came, come to life and into control.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: The Catholic Church, Politics and Morality [Re: tekramrepus]
    #2769699 - 06/06/04 07:30 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

No wars have been fought because of religon, so don't give me that crap.

The crusades? Islamic jihad?

The error is human in nature, and religion (the harmful kind) is a PRODUCT of this error.

You are perfectly correct there...however try to remember that all religions are a product of humans, and will thus exhibit some (or all) of human nature.

However, wars have been fought before because of religion...and will be fought in the future because of religion. In fact more wars are fought on a religious basis than not.


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Anonymous

Re: The Catholic Church, Politics and Morality [Re: Swami]
    #2769727 - 06/06/04 07:40 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I wouldn't consider the Catholic church (or any other religious institution) as any sort of beacon of morality. All they are interested in is power and control.


Power and control, power and control......


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OfflineGrav
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Re: The Catholic Church, Politics and Morality [Re: tekramrepus]
    #2769956 - 06/06/04 09:20 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

What has greater potential of rallying an army together to Die in a war than the belief of "doing god's good work?"

Religious beliefs make things seem okay to do.
They can make the most horrible atrocities seem necessary, or an inevitable path graced by god.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Catholic Church, Politics and Morality [Re: ]
    #2770694 - 06/07/04 03:04 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

power and control.

Power and control, power and control......


I am getting s-l-e-e-p-y.

Your will is my will; your will is my will...


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The proof is in the pudding.


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