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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: What God do you believe in (if any)... [Re: allmakescombined]
    #3237530 - 10/09/04 10:51 PM (17 years, 19 days ago)

Weren't you just criticizing me for using that same smiley?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlineallmakescombined
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Re: What God do you believe in (if any)... [Re: silversoul7]
    #3237547 - 10/09/04 11:01 PM (17 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

Same to you. Now how's this for humility: I do not know anything for certain. If you can admit the same about yourself, that will be enough, and then I'll shut up.




Unable. If I admitted to knowing nothing, I would be lying to myself.

Quote:

You may have questioned them in the past, but if you claim with absolute certainty that you know something, then you have obviously stopped questioning them, which is not healthy. The foolish man believes he is wise, while the wise man admits he is a fool.




Believe me silversoul7, we are all fools. However to question what one essentially knows has nothing to do with with the self - matters of the ego, which of course must be questionable, otherwise one doesn't grow out of egotism. ss7, I have found a deeper meaning in things - in God. Gnosis is a frankly a gift because it shatters blind faith, and one can finally realize that it is arrogance itself to question an already persisting answer. The answer is the foundation of non duality. It is like seeing the blue sky and asking out, "Is the sky really blue?". The sky isn't going to suddenly assert its blue appearence, it's going to remain sutle and blue, as it was before: an already persisting answer.

Quote:

I have questioned it, and if I have exhausted all rational possibilities that I do not know something, then I may accept it as fact. But I've seen your posts before, and please don't take this personally, but you have not exactly demonstrated the most profound reasoning abilities I've ever seen, so I somehow doubt that you have exhausted all these possibilities.




You are contradicting yourself. You have asserted that you don't know anything, and that you may always never know anything. You refuse to question this itself. That is the contradiction. The charge is that one can come to a realization/knowledge of the Truth. You believe that one cannot. Yet you don't even question this for yourself.


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Edited by allmakescombined (10/09/04 11:18 PM)


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Offlineallmakescombined
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Re: What God do you believe in (if any)... [Re: silversoul7]
    #3237549 - 10/09/04 11:03 PM (17 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Weren't you just criticizing me for using that same smiley?




Have I used it with you? You are at least sharing your ideas and presenting dialogue. Evolving on the either hand posted a visual innuendo to 'Bullshit' then ran away.


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OfflineCyber
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Re: What God do you believe in (if any)... [Re: PsiTripper]
    #3237589 - 10/09/04 11:23 PM (17 years, 19 days ago)

I normally do not discuss religion because I live in the bible belt and am not Christian, This tends to cause problems so I keep it to my self.

Quote:


Anyway, I just wanted to know what God and religion you follow?





I follow the Ancient Kemetic religion. After years of studying the various religions, beliefs, and philosophies of the world I came to rest on the ancient beliefs because to be they best describe god and answer many questions which other religions seem to ignore or not acknowledge.

The simplest explanation of the Kemetic philosophy is that there is a GOD, In the kemetic language referred to as Neter, and that God is so far beyond man that man can not comprehend it as a whole. So, for man to understand Neter man must break Neter into Neteru (The plural of Neter, AKA GODS) These smaller parts of the whole, we can understand and comprehend. All the gods are individuals so that we can understand it, at the same time they are one god that we do not comprehend.

This is similar to the belief of the Jews that the Torah is the name of god (Thus written with no spaces or punctuation) but to understand the name we must break it into words and sentences that we can comprehend.

There is so much more and no where near enough time to go into it all.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: What God do you believe in (if any)... [Re: allmakescombined]
    #3237631 - 10/09/04 11:38 PM (17 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

Unable. If I admitted to knowing nothing, I would be lying to myself.




Knowing nothing for certain is different than knowing nothing. You may know everything, but you may not. That is knowing nothing for certain

To know everything, with no chance of not knowing everything, is just blatant egotism on a subjective human mind. It is deception that what we experience is absolute, which is just a subjective deception. Human evolution included aspects such as colors, forms, sounds, tastes, lines, and sensations; it also included depression, happiness and mystical experience. Yet its existence does not say that it is without error. Its existence doesn't even say it exists outside of you

Quote:

The answer is the foundation of non duality. It is like seeing the blue sky and asking out, "Is the sky really blue?". The sky isn't going to suddenly assert its blue appearence, it's going to remain sutle and blue, as it was before: an already persisting answer.




An already persisting answer? More like a continuously existing deception. You speak of humility, yet it seems from your speak that you have not experienced true humility, that all the things you consider sacred and absolute are just personal experiences that you will consider sacred and absolute.

"The reasons for which 'this' world has been characterized as 'apparent' are the very reasons which indicate its reality; any other kind of reality is absolutely indemonstrable."
-Nietzsche


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Offlineallmakescombined
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Re: What God do you believe in (if any)... [Re: Ravus]
    #3237662 - 10/09/04 11:51 PM (17 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

Knowing nothing for certain is different than knowing nothing. You may know everything, but you may not. That is knowing nothing for certain

To know everything, with no chance of not knowing everything, is just blatant egotism on a subjective human mind. It is deception that what we experience is absolute, which is just a subjective deception. Human evolution included aspects such as colors, forms, sounds, tastes, lines, and sensations; it also included depression, happiness and mystical experience. Yet its existence does not say that it is without error. Its existence doesn't even say it exists outside of you




I definately do not 'know everything'; as far as what I know, I know myself. Individuated people know this for themselves, and are able to differentiate from personal knowledge and academic persuits of knowledge. Gnosis is definately not academic. It is hardly a global effort, and I definately do not treat it as such. I know myself. Some people like to say otherwise, but that is simply their point of position.

Quote:

An already persisting answer? More like a continuously existing deception. You speak of humility, yet it seems from your speak that you have not experienced true humility, that all the things you consider sacred and absolute are just personal experiences that you will consider sacred and absolute.

"The reasons for which 'this' world has been characterized as 'apparent' are the very reasons which indicate its reality; any other kind of reality is absolutely indemonstrable."
-Nietzsche




My precise point is that humility is also how you conceptualize your own reality outwardly in a fashion that draws the least possible attention to your ego. It is to lower one's self. To apply a completely un-needed personal, inner conflict of questions to an equal amount of answers is not humility - it falls along the lines of the opposite of self denial.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: What God do you believe in (if any)... [Re: allmakescombined]
    #3237669 - 10/09/04 11:55 PM (17 years, 19 days ago)

"as far as what I know, I know myself."

Ah, that is much better. From your earlier posts it sounded like you were trying to say something much more, of absolute unarguable knowledge you, a subjective human, had experienced, but I understand better now


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Offlineallmakescombined
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Re: What God do you believe in (if any)... [Re: Ravus]
    #3237680 - 10/10/04 12:00 AM (17 years, 19 days ago)

And it's this self realization that ss7 finds questionable - I can only disagree with that. This whole debate began when ss7 asserted nothing can be known - going so far to deny self realization as wishful arrogance. That kind of mentality is questionable from an academic perspective especially when ss7 is blasting a personal one. I know myself. What is questionable is that ss7 insists that even we cannot know ourselves. That's were all of this snow balled from.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: What God do you believe in (if any)... [Re: allmakescombined]
    #3237731 - 10/10/04 12:24 AM (17 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

allmakescombined said:
Evolving on the either hand posted a visual innuendo to 'Bullshit' then ran away.



Ran away? Please, I just find it silly that anyone can be so smug in unfounded beliefs, you prattle on like a patient in a psych ward. There is no reasoning with you, for you do not engage in it, you merely make unsubstantiated statements. They can not be verified, they are mere bald assertions brought back from... where? A temporary psychotic state induced by hallucinogens?


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: What God do you believe in (if any)... [Re: PsiTripper]
    #3237771 - 10/10/04 12:40 AM (17 years, 19 days ago)

The words attributed to Jesus affirm what you wish to believe. The first commandment is part of the Jewish Shema: "Hear O Israel, the LORD thy GOD, the LORD is ONE. Thou shalt love the LORD thy GOD with all thy heart, with all thy soul and with all thy might." The second part attributed to Jesus is "Love thy neighbor as thyself." The first commandment reflects our 'vertical' relationship with GOD, the second reflects our 'horizontal' relationship with others. If we realize that the metaphysical nature of GOD is love (1 John 4:8), or better translated 'Compassion' (closer to the Greek 'agape'), then we know how to BE and what to DO. Where then is your denouncement of GOD and Christ???? It is an affirmation!

As to the TRUTH of other faiths: Only the outer, or exoteric 'forms' of religion are different. These are the mere husks, not the kernals of religious TRUTH. The 'fundamentalists' of faiths - Jewish, Christian or Islamic seem to know nothing but the outer forms and differences. They DO NOT KNOW that TRUTH is ONE. The inner, esoteric nature of religions IS the TRUTH. An esoteric (mystic) Christian is closer to a Jewish or Muslim mystic, for example than he is to a fundamentalist Christian.

A classic way of looking at the differences between religions was penned by Frithjof Schuon in The Transcendent Unity of Religions. He likened all religions to different sides of a multi-sided mountain. At the base where the sides were widest, the differences were greatest (exoteric religion). As one ascended the mountain, the sides tapered and narrowed and so did the differences. About half way up the mountain, the differences were so much less that they began to become esoteric (inner). At the summit, the peak, all religions merged into a single point - TRUTH - which is ONE.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: What God do you believe in (if any)... [Re: allmakescombined]
    #3237905 - 10/10/04 01:51 AM (17 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

allmakescombined said:
Quote:

Same to you. Now how's this for humility: I do not know anything for certain. If you can admit the same about yourself, that will be enough, and then I'll shut up.




Unable. If I admitted to knowing nothing, I would be lying to myself.



And that right there is the epitome of arrogance. 'Nuff said.

Quote:

Quote:

I have questioned it, and if I have exhausted all rational possibilities that I do not know something, then I may accept it as fact. But I've seen your posts before, and please don't take this personally, but you have not exactly demonstrated the most profound reasoning abilities I've ever seen, so I somehow doubt that you have exhausted all these possibilities.




You are contradicting yourself. You have asserted that you don't know anything, and that you may always never know anything. You refuse to question this itself. That is the contradiction. The charge is that one can come to a realization/knowledge of the Truth. You believe that one cannot. Yet you don't even question this for yourself.



Pay closer attention. I have not discounted the possibility of knowing anything, I said that in order to know something for certain, I would have to be able to disprove all other possibilities. I have questioned this for myself, despite what you claim. But note that possible and probable are two different things. Just because it might be possible for us to know something for certain doesn't make it any more probable than the tooth fairy being elected president of the United States.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlineallmakescombined
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Re: What God do you believe in (if any)... [Re: silversoul7]
    #3238075 - 10/10/04 02:54 AM (17 years, 18 days ago)

I take issue when others try to downplay the self realization of others simply because they themselves do not relate to this realization on a personal level. My self realization is personal, not academic. It is individuated into metaphysics, not a product of literalism amongst a perspective 'global salvation' of people. Do you find the relationship between a mother and a child academic? Do you question a mother's love for her child? Furthermore, would you question your own mother's unconditional love for you? There comes a point during the process of individuation where the questions you ardently encourage are silenced and subsequently answered by your own being; prior to the ego which demands such 'rational satisfaction'. As if one can rationalize something that manifests itself as so obviously distinct from any pedantic reasoning of material surroundings. Question others, and question the arche types (and what meets those needs) of other people all you want in the name of your own subjective ideas of what defines 'humility' - on a personal level, there are people who have realized themselves, their reality, and essentially what fulfils the accusing self that cries out for its own realization. Your own ideas of what merits arrogance are clearly questionable when you attempt to dissect awakening process of those outside your own reality (people other than you). Find yourself, as that should be your concern, not that of others.


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Get back to work.



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OfflinePhluck
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Re: What God do you believe in (if any)... [Re: PsiTripper]
    #3238105 - 10/10/04 03:11 AM (17 years, 18 days ago)

Why come to a conclusion on what to believe in if there's no way to find out what the correct answer is?

I can understand the desire to make a decision. The idea that you have no idea what reality and life really consist of is kind of frightening, but it's really the only completely accurate answer.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: What God do you believe in (if any)... [Re: allmakescombined]
    #3238116 - 10/10/04 03:15 AM (17 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

allmakescombined said:
I take issue when others try to downplay the self realization of others simply because they themselves do not relate to this realization on a personal level. My self realization is personal, not academic.



Were you or were you not trying to use this so-called "self-realization" as grounds for saying you knew God existed? Furthermore, why is it "downplaying" it when I'm merely asking you to question it?

Quote:

It is individuated into metaphysics, not a product of literalism amongst a perspective 'global salvation' of people. Do you find the relationship between a mother and a child academic?



Not necessarily, but it can and has been examined on that level before.

Quote:

Do you question a mother's love for her child?



In some respects. The mother may think she loves the child, but may have no real understanding of what love is.

Quote:

Furthermore, would you question your own mother's unconditional love for you?



I question everything, and this too is not beyond my own skepticism. I believe my mother loves me unconditionally, and I believe she believes that she loves me unconditionally, but this does not necessarily make it so.

Quote:

There comes a point during the process of individuation where the questions you ardently encourage are silenced and subsequently answered by your own being;



Only in the mind of a coward who is afraid to ask such questions.

Quote:

prior to the ego which demands such 'rational satisfaction'. As if one can rationalize something that manifests itself as so obviously distinct from any pedantic reasoning of material surroundings. Question others, and question the arche types (and what meets those needs) of other people all you want in the name of your own subjective ideas of what defines 'humility' - on a personal level, there are people who have realized themselves, their reality, and essentially what fulfils the accusing self that cries out for its own realization. Your own ideas of what merits arrogance are clearly questionable when you attempt to dissect awakening process of those outside your own reality (people other than you).



While I acknowledge the possibity that you have "awakened," you show no real signs of it in your posts. It is hardly humble of you to believe you are above certain questions.

Quote:

Find yourself, as that should be your concern, not that of others.



To the best of my knowledge, I have found myself. I don't know for certain, because as far as I can tell, I can't know anything for certain, but I believe because my instincts tell me I'm right. As for concern for others, why are you here? If your own spiritual path is so personal to you, why even bother sharing it with the rest of us on this board, leaving your ideas open to scrutiny? You brought this upon yourself.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: What God do you believe in (if any)... [Re: allmakescombined]
    #3238117 - 10/10/04 03:15 AM (17 years, 18 days ago)

it is arrogance itself to question an already persisting answer

God's existance is only a "persisting answer" if you already believe in it. Once an opinion or belief is formed, people seek out justification, and interpret everything as evidence of its existance.

To those of us without an existing god bias, god's existance is not the most obvious answer.

The way you feel about the existance of god is the way I feel about not truly being able to know the answer.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: What God do you believe in (if any)... [Re: allmakescombined]
    #3238142 - 10/10/04 03:21 AM (17 years, 18 days ago)

Do you find the relationship between a mother and a child academic?

What do you mean by academic? If you mean can it be analyzed and discussed? Of course. Just because love is such a powerful emotion doesn't mean that it isn't logical, or that it's magical or related to "metaphysics".

as so obviously distinct from any pedantic reasoning of material surroundings.

How is it obvious? Do you mean that it "feels" correct, or do you have some sort of explanation of why it's obvious?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Offlineallmakescombined
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Re: What God do you believe in (if any)... [Re: silversoul7]
    #3238187 - 10/10/04 03:43 AM (17 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Were you or were you not trying to use this so-called "self-realization" as grounds for saying you knew God existed? Furthermore, why is it "downplaying" it when I'm merely asking you to question it?




Knowing God is Self Realization. How does one go about questioning one's own Self Realization? The problem here is that a conscious relationship with God is personal, not academic.

Quote:

Not necessarily, but it can and has been examined on that level before.




Examined objectively, but never abandoned.

Quote:

In some respects. The mother may think she loves the child, but may have no real understanding of what love is.




See, this is my point - no one under this pretense is suggesting the mother and child break their love for one another.

Quote:

I question everything, and this too is not beyond my own skepticism. I believe my mother loves me unconditionally, and I believe she believes that she loves me unconditionally, but this does not necessarily make it so.




However, the dice is in your hands whether you consciously love your mother or not. You have knowledge of your own natural and biological response to your mother's love for you.

Quote:

Only in the mind of a coward who is afraid to ask such questions.




Mysticism itself is a process questioning; it would have to as mystics constantly seek to penetrate the mystery of TRUTH - the deeper the mystery goes, the more 'spread out' the answers get. Eventually the Question is met with a Question itself. If you're going to ask the countenance of God "Who are you?" you will only get "Well, who are you?" in return. Eventually one's answer lies in the fact that it's the ego that asks questions, not the hidden God mirror within.

Quote:

While I acknowledge the possibity that you have "awakened," you show no real signs of it in your posts. It is hardly humble of you to believe you are above certain questions.




Thanks for the analysis, ss7. Really, I appreciate those. And as of yet, you haven't made clear what constitutes 'questioning' from your perspective. Question what exactly - how?  :tongue2: When a question is met with another question, only then will one realize that they are mirrors of a greater being of realization.

Quote:

To the best of my knowledge, I have found myself. I don't know for certain, because as far as I can tell, I can't know anything for certain, but I believe because my instincts tell me I'm right. As for concern for others, why are you here? If your own spiritual path is so personal to you, why even bother sharing it with the rest of us on this board, leaving your ideas open to scrutiny? You brought this upon yourself.




Since when did this became an argument? This forum is about friendly discussion. I frankly don't warm up to people like you and Swami are come off as a bully of ideas instead of a humble candidate for friendly dialogue. Can you see the difference? Probably not.


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Offlineallmakescombined
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Re: What God do you believe in (if any)... [Re: Phluck]
    #3238204 - 10/10/04 03:50 AM (17 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
it is arrogance itself to question an already persisting answer

God's existance is only a "persisting answer" if you already believe in it. Once an opinion or belief is formed, people seek out justification, and interpret everything as evidence of its existance.

To those of us without an existing god bias, god's existance is not the most obvious answer.

The way you feel about the existance of god is the way I feel about not truly being able to know the answer.




See, to alot of people the general idea of God is academic and legal - not personal. There is absolutely no room for anyone to know God on a level other than a personal one. This personal connection with God (ie, being conscious of God) is what gives foundation to gnosis. It's the science of intention.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: What God do you believe in (if any)... [Re: allmakescombined]
    #3238242 - 10/10/04 04:05 AM (17 years, 18 days ago)

To you, it's a "personal connection with god", to me, it's a set of emotions that leads us to believe there is a deity that created and controlled us.

Of course it's a personal experience. You can't fully comprehend what religion is like until you've experienced it first hand. However, the nature of the experience is immaterial when you're discussing whether or not the conclusions you've reached as a result of your experiences are true or not.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Offlineallmakescombined
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Re: What God do you believe in (if any)... [Re: Phluck]
    #3238257 - 10/10/04 04:13 AM (17 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

To you, it's a "personal connection with god", to me, it's a set of emotions that leads us to believe there is a deity that created and controlled us.




To me it is a connection to the origin of consciousness/being, and to you it is immaterial, and thus illogical. Therein lies our differences.


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* Dose God exist? Take a look around.
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Bavet 5,978 68 02/06/03 12:46 PM
by Strumpling
* God, what to even say this is about? fireworks_godS 1,071 18 08/13/03 05:45 PM
by fireworks_god
* Dass, LSD, Omniscience, Truth, Experience
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World Spirit 4,041 34 07/18/03 10:26 AM
by MarkostheGnostic
* So then if you found out there really was a monotheistic god PjS 736 14 07/26/03 05:36 PM
by Discordja

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