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Prayer Study Fails Miserably
    #5488926 -

web page

CHICAGO (Reuters) - A study of more than 1,800 patients who underwent heart bypass surgery has failed to show that prayers specially organized for their recovery had any impact, researchers said Thursday.

In fact, the study found some of the patients who knew they were being prayed for did worse than others who were only told they might be prayed for -- though those who did the study said they could not explain why.

duh! it failed because there is no deity listening to pathetic mumblings and petitions - in fact he got pissed off so it worked in reverse...


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i have less ego than you do!

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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Temptress]
    #5488928 -

You sorta contradicted yourself


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"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Temptress]
    #5489028 -

Just because a study doesn't give the expected result, does not mean that the study is a failure.
In fact almost all scientific breakthroughs are the result of experiment not confirming theory, so the theory had to be altered.
This study gave a clear and fairly unambiguous negative result, thereby falsifying the theory of objective reality of the efficacy of third party prayer.
That sounds like a resounding success to me, even if the result is unpalatable to the party commissioning the study.

What many fundamentalists in both the religious and scientific camps fail to realize is that the nature of religion is more closely related to art than to science.

In related news, Twelve year study finds: Not all roses are red, and only some violets are blue.


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"You should view the world as a conspiracy run by a very closely-knit group of nearly omnipotent people, and you should think of that group as yourself and your friends."

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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Temptress]
    #5489981 -

Yeah because you can pray from the tip of your lips of from the bottom of your soul, dude. Big difference. When someone "makes" you pray, you usually din't get the desired results.


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:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #5490487 -

MushroomTrip said:
Yeah because you can pray from the tip of your lips of from the bottom of your soul, dude. Big difference. When someone "makes" you pray, you usually din't get the desired results.


I doubt they "made" them pray. If it was a proper study they would have just observed the ones who prayed and didn't pray. And if "god" doesn't help out those who ask for his help because he knows those people are being observed by some scientists, then he's a dick anyways.


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"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks

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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: barfightlard]
    #5490605 -

I was talking about their mind set. I strongly believe that you pray different when you know your prayer is studied, you worry more about those who observe you then on the actual prayer.
So, you can't really concentrate on the prayer.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #5491078 -

When someone "makes" you pray, you usually din't get the desired results.

Wow, I didn't even know God kept track of that.  :shocked:


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #5491118 -

Quote:
Yeah because you can pray from the tip of your lips of from the bottom of your soul, dude. Big difference.


what is the big diference? Apparently none. as to being 'made to pray' the participants wanted to to show the wrold the power of prayer - and as with all mysticism - failed to show any affect on physical reyality.


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i have less ego than you do!

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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Temptress]
    #5491616 -

In 1993, there was study done in Washington, DC, hypothesized that if a large group of people were to meditate on reducing the crime rate by 25% - it would happen.

The Chief of Police said the only thing that would reduce crime rate in the "Murder Capital of the World" by 25% was 6 inches of snow - in June. The study took place with over 1000 people from over 30 nations. The DCPD eventually became the organizer of the event because in that course of the year, crime decreased by 25%.

Source: John Hagelin, PhD; from the movie "What the Bleep Do We Know?"

Now, your case doesn't really say anything, because nothing happened, but mine does. And when nothing happens, you cant really conclude at anything. It's like saying that you called God out to give you a million dollars, but since he didn't do it, you're concluding that he doesn't exist. But if that money really did appear out of thin air, well ... you just might have yourself an argument.  :wink:


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010001100100001001000101!

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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Fospher]
    #5492106 -

Coincidence


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YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.

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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Diploid]
    #5492189 -

Diploid said:
When someone "makes" you pray, you usually din't get the desired results.

Wow, I didn't even know God kept track of that.  :shocked:


Actually I was referring to the concentration. Can you honestly say that you have the same concentration when you do something from you own will and on you own like when you know you're being motorized?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #5492550 -

im not sure whats more ridiculous, thinking that a room full of strangers prying for you, (somehow has more to do with your recovery than the way you have been taking care of your body, the doctor and how well your body deals with the shock.) or the fact that they actually did a 9 year experiment on something like this.


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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.

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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: kotik]
    #5492559 -

nine years? people have been praying to and worshipping a dead rabbi for mellenium.


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i have less ego than you do!

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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Temptress]
    #5492644 -

equally pointless, other than each individuals own mental /spiritual health


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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.

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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Temptress]
    #5493361 -

Right. Mysticism does not "show any effect on physical reality." You must
have confused the word 'mysticism' with the word 'magic[k].'

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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Temptress]
    #5493382 -

Temptress said:
nine years? people have been praying to and worshipping a dead rabbi for mellenium.


Right again. People should be transforming themselves INTO the Rabbi [Teacher] instead of praying to Him or worshiping Him. Good point!

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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Ekstaza]
    #5493887 -

Ekstaza said:
Coincidence


PROVE IT.


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010001100100001001000101!

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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Fospher]
    #5495652 -

In 1993, there was study done in Washington, DC, hypothesized that if a large group of people were to meditate on reducing the crime rate by 25% - it would happen.

John Hagelin of the Maharishi University described how in 1993, violent crime in Washington D.C. was reduced over a two month period by 4000 people using Transcendental Meditation.

His results had many problems that rendered them invalid.

1. Hagelin?s report stated violent crime had been reduced by 18%, but he failed to state what it was reduced compared to. Just stating that something is %18 less is a meaningless statement. Less than last year? Less than in 1812? Less than in Zimbabwe?

2. How did he know what the crime rate would have been without the TM? Scientific tests require something called a control group. If you're testing a drug, you need some rats that get the drug, and some that don't. Both groups eat the same food, drink the same water, live in the same place. Only in this way can you be sure that any changes in the test group that don't show up in the control group are caused by the drug and not by something in the water.

Crime rates vary all the time. Without a scientific control in his experiment, his results could be real, or could be a result of normal statistical drift; without a control group, there's no way to tell and so his results are meaningless.

3. It was discovered after the fact that the members of his "independent scientific review board" were not independent. All science is subject to intense critical scrutiny by the peers of the scientist doing the work. In this way, any mistakes or weaknesses in the results can be ruthlessly attacked. Only scientific results that can stand this scrutiny are accepted as valid.

It turns out that the board was not 'independent' after all; all the members were proponents of the Maharishi Principle and so were biased in their assessment. Had the (not) independent scientific review board been doing their job, they would have pointed out the bad science I'm pointing out now.

4. The results of the experiment have never been independently replicated.

5. And finally, after he published his work, attempts to independently verify his statistics found that, despite his claims of TM's success, the murder rate ROSE during the period in question. Hagelin MADE UP his data.

John Hagelin was deservedly awarded the 1994 Ig Nobel Prize (an insult) for this outstanding Piece of Work.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (04/09/06 01:41 PM)

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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Fospher]
    #5495797 -

Fospher said:
Ekstaza said:
Coincidence


PROVE IT.


I'm not the one with something to prove.

YOU PROVE IT!


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YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.

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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Ekstaza]
    #5497372 -

You can't prove of the existence of the metaphysical. You can only point cause and effect, and what little connection the two have, you can make an inference that the two are interrelated by something that can not be explained through physical matter.

Now, say if I started floating in mid-air, you could say that it was the atmospheric pressure that was extremely dense in that area that day, and the magnetic pull of the earth's core making it's first attempts to reverse the polarity. But is it probable that was the cause? I can't prove to you that me floating is an effect of me superimposing my will on reality, because it's not something that can be proven. It's something that can be experienced, or documented.

Now saying it's a coincedence is a black and white issue. How do you know that to be true? What grounds do you have to make that statement? If you choose to take the skeptic approach, then have foundations for your reasons of the denial of the case in point.

What are they?


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010001100100001001000101!

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