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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Re: Independent Verification [Re: Swami]
    #1866001 - 08/30/03 02:32 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

And I will worship you as the incarnation of the One True Christ (the one who will box the Anti-Christ after drinking lots of tequila).

May the best God Win!
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Independent Verification [Re: Spokesman]
    #1866002 - 08/30/03 02:32 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

If they discover psychedelics, they might start beliving in a higher power

Do you believe that the millions of doses of LSD in the 60s and 70s fueled any kind of a religious revival? I did not see it. I saw some westerners turning towards Eastern mysticism, but no great religion came out of the psychedelic movement.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Re: Independent Verification [Re: Swami]
    #1866013 - 08/30/03 02:38 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

You can't really codify a subjective experience into mass religious ideals.. You can only take your own experiences and try to fit them into the pattern that the mass religious ideals prescribe.. and it doesn't work.

Just as there were the more intelligent, aware, conscious individuals truly trying to try to do something good and meaningful with their medium, there were the thousands of people who blindly and sensationally got off..
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Independent Verification [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1866038 - 08/30/03 02:47 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Just as there were the more intelligent, aware, conscious individuals truly trying to try to do something good and meaningful with their medium, there were the thousands of people who blindly and sensationally got off..

The USA (in general and despite advances in Gay, Black and women's rights) is just as conservative, if not more so, than ever. And violence and crime has increased dramatically. The hippies basically stopped the Viet Nam war then faded into political oblivion. There was no noticable mass shift of consciousness from hallucinogens


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Re: Independent Verification [Re: Swami]
    #1866079 - 08/30/03 02:59 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

I am agreeing with you here. Relying on a drug like LSD doesn't solve the world's problems.. hehe.

It'd be like expecting all of these kids listening to corporate pushed nu-metal to bring a new order to the world.. :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineMindTrap
Disembodiedvoice
Registered: 08/02/02
Posts: 349
Loc: It's all in your head...
Last seen: 19 years, 3 months
Re: Independent Verification [Re: Swami]
    #1867839 - 08/31/03 07:07 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
I tend to believe that many of the weird cases that you presented as evidence of something paranormal would turn out equally as prosaic if there was a way to do more research as there was in this milestone case of mass self-deception.




Well I certainly can't argue with ignorance. So ignore away, it's your life.

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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Independent Verification [Re: MindTrap]
    #1868652 - 08/31/03 03:10 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Wow... that makes no sense at all... thanks for playing.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Offlineblahblah
Stranger
Registered: 08/23/03
Posts: 16
Last seen: 20 years, 7 months
Re: Independent Verification [Re: Sclorch]
    #1869033 - 08/31/03 06:08 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

[quoteSo in a unique environment with unknown variables, you trust the observer's ability to pick out the one crucial variable? I do not!

Example: Mother whose child has leuekmia and is getting the latest medical care attributes healing to prayer.




ok.. where am I in this discussion, again. Hmm

Enviro: I see the difference between you and me. I don't need to believe or be a skeptic. I seek reasons and look for patterns. Where logic fails, I utilize other means. Yet I'm neither attached to the reasoning or bent in one particular way of seeing. That's what I am.

Now, I neither stated I would trust the observer. I have no necessity to. I would ask very indepth questions formed from my own experiences. Of course, it would be easier for me to gauge the observer if I was there at that moment.

In this medium, it's pretty pointless for me to trust or not to trust the observer - depending on whether I'm familiar with what is being described.

you belief system trust and use the proof/empirical model which has no awareness to controll these unknown variables. The human factor alone is a significant unknown value which p/e model has no expertise in and is incongruent. ie: psychics used in studies where certain exercises he/she has little ability in. They have limits that they don't even know nor do the researchers.

My premise was and still is about the awareness of the defective belief structures. But removing it is another matter.


Example: You don't have the ability to assess it since you're not even there to see the emotional impact, and experiencing what transpired in that moment.

An instantaneous snapshot, uniquely for that moment because people are involved, which will be nearly impossible to duplicate in some lab experiment. People are unlike the laws of physics.

Overall, it is your choice to use a belief standard to inquire or question the observer. That standard is an issue on the core of self-trust. Why? Shit I've been there. Being a skeptic is punishing on oneself. At least, for me it was.

Now, I have joined the crackpot collective. hahah For the time being anyways.. :P

Good Day

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Offlineblahblah
Stranger
Registered: 08/23/03
Posts: 16
Last seen: 20 years, 7 months
Re: Independent Verification [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1869051 - 08/31/03 06:12 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Communication... Its a blessing... ?takes rock and motions frantically with accompanying grunts?
Peace.




that's my whole point with Swami. If we saw yhou in person, this discussion with you and others would be crystal clear.

Sometimes, I treat net convos like in person exchanges. Hence I'm misunderstood. Hence, I really dislike typing on the keybaords.

No harm done, I hope.


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OfflineDoctorJ
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
Loc: space
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: Independent Verification [Re: blahblah]
    #1869312 - 08/31/03 08:15 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

"There was no noticable mass shift of consciousness from hallucinogens. "

I cant believe that you can honestly look back over the past 30 years at all of the achievements the human race has made in the blink of an evolutionary eye and then think that.

I could provide examples, but there are so many I wouldnt know how or where to start.  this is going to get me in trouble :smile:

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Independent Verification [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1870525 - 09/01/03 04:56 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

I cant believe..
*Sigh* Yet another skeptic...

...that you can honestly...
I have never lied on thee boards.

...look back over the past 30 years at all of the achievements the human race has made in the blink of an evolutionary eye and then think that.
Why not? Were not radio, cars, TV, satellites, rockets, nylon, plastics, refridgerators, etc. all developed before widespread psychedelic usage?

On the social scene, the end of slavery, women's suffrage and civil rights started before the pyschedelic movement. On the negative side, as a youth I used to hitchhike and pick up strangers all the time. Practically nobody does either now. The love and trust has been replaced by fear - not quite an advancement.

I could provide examples, but there are so many I wouldnt know how or where to start. this is going to get me in trouble
I could see how it would be tiresome to list one or two with connective evidence...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Independent Verification [Re: blahblah]
    #1870544 - 09/01/03 05:20 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

I seek reasons and look for patterns.
Which we all do. The rationalist however, seeks to impartially test his conclusions where possible.

Where logic fails,
Logic as a methodology never fails; it is only that sometimes it cannot be applied as there is insufficient data.

I utilize other means.
Please do NOT elucidate. We all enjoy vague and meaningless declarations.

Yet I'm neither attached to the reasoning or bent in one particular way of seeing.
Every single luxury you have, from hot running water to your car to your CD player and your computer; to easy access to an abundance of food at your local grocery store are ALL products of reasoning. I would bet heavily that you are attached to some if not all of those items.

you belief system trust and use the proof/empirical model which has no awareness to controll these unknown variables.
Which is EXACTLY the reason controlled experiments are ALWAYS advocated where possible.

The human factor alone is a significant unknown value which p/e model has no expertise in and is incongruent.
Not so, people are quite similar physiologically and biologically.

...psychics used in studies where certain exercises he/she has little ability in.
The "best" psychics all fail miserably.

Example: You don't have the ability to assess it since you're not even there to see the emotional impact, and experiencing what transpired in that moment.
The emotional impact of seeing a comet has nothing to do with linking it as an omen of bad things about to happen (for example).

An instantaneous snapshot, uniquely for that moment because people are involved, which will be nearly impossible to duplicate in some lab experiment.
(I certainly hope English is your second language as this is not even a complete sentence.) Many events have been studied in a lab based on
seemingly random events such as the development of electricity from the observation and study of static discharge (lightning).

People are unlike the laws of physics.
Disregarding the nonsense of your statement, people certainly do respond equally to the laws of physics such as gravity and momentum and thremodynamics and...

Being a skeptic is punishing on oneself.
And flying to the Philippines for miracle psychic surgery wherein the "healer" uses stage magic to bilk thousands out of the victims while giving him false hope is not at all damaging?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineDoctorJ
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
Loc: space
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: Independent Verification [Re: Swami]
    #1871006 - 09/01/03 11:50 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

"Why not? Were not radio, cars, TV, satellites, rockets, nylon, plastics, refridgerators, etc. all developed before widespread psychedlic usage?"

What about NASA? The moon landing didnt occur until well after the peak of the 60's. And what about the internet? Do you really believe that Berkely being the Acid capital of the world and the origin of the UNIX operating system (still the backbone of the internet) is a coincedence???? Don't you know any programmers that love E and Acid? I sure do!!!

"On the social scene, the end of slavery, women's suffrage and civil rights started before the pyschedelic movement."

they may have started before, but who knows if they would have succeeded without.

anyway, I still believe that psychedelic revivals tend to be beneficial to our evolution. Its absolutely ludacris to say that they havent had at least some effect on our development.

"The love and trust has been replaced by fear - not quite an advancement."

I would be interested to know by what logical leap of faith you have managed to connect this development to psychedelic drug use and discount the effects of a million other variables that could have caused this.

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Independent Verification [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1871138 - 09/01/03 12:51 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

What about NASA? The moon landing didnt occur until well after the peak of the 60's.
Huh? The first sniper mass murderer occured around the same time. So what? You show no connective evidence. Most NASA scientists at the time were quite conservative.

And what about the internet?
It was started by the Department of Defense - a real hippie haven.

Do you really believe that Berkely being the Acid capital of the world and the origin of the UNIX operating system (still the backbone of the internet) is a coincedence????
(More than one question mark is incorrect grammar!) Your conclusion-jumping is amazing to behold.

Don't you know any programmers that love E and Acid? I sure do!!!
(More than one exclamation point is incorrect grammar.) Please show your study linking occupation to LSD usage and subsequent contributions to mankind.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineDoctorJ
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
Loc: space
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: Independent Verification [Re: Swami]
    #1871184 - 09/01/03 01:06 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

I'm getting really tired of you asking me to prove the opposite of assertions that you cant prove.

I'm getting really tired of defending myself for commiting "conclusion jumping" when you never bother to address the many times I've pointed out your own leaps.

But most of all, I'm getting tired of the fact that you refuse to recognize the impact of things we dont fully understand, simply because we dont fully understand them.

Oh yeah, and If you really want to correct people's grammar, I'd suggest becoming an elementary school teacher, you pretentious bastard.

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Independent Verification [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1871255 - 09/01/03 01:36 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

I'm getting really tired...
Try a nap.

I'm getting really tired...
Perhaps vitamins would help.

...of defending myself for commiting "conclusion jumping"
So stop it or connect the dots. It is that simple.

But most of all, I'm getting tired of the fact that you refuse to recognize the impact of things we dont fully understand, simply because we dont fully understand them.
If we don't understand the impact, then how can we understand the impact? Your statements are puzzling.

Oh yeah, and If you really want to correct people's grammar, I'd suggest becoming an elementary school teacher, you pretentious bastard.
I am neither pretentious nor a bastard. Are you saying that your literary skills are stuck at the elementary level?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineDoctorJ
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
Loc: space
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: Independent Verification [Re: Swami]
    #1871276 - 09/01/03 01:43 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

my work here is done :smile:

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Independent Verification [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1871476 - 09/01/03 02:37 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

"The love and trust has been replaced by fear - not quite an advancement."

I would be interested to know by what logical leap of faith you have managed to connect this development to psychedelic drug use and discount the effects of a million other variables that could have caused this.

Finally, a good question. The fear that I am talking about is NOT the result of psychedelic usage. I am merely pointing out that the love and openess of the 60s and early 70s was a temporary phenomenon and did NOT create a large-scale paradigm shift.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineMindTrap
Disembodiedvoice
Registered: 08/02/02
Posts: 349
Loc: It's all in your head...
Last seen: 19 years, 3 months
Re: Independent Verification [Re: Swami]
    #1871569 - 09/01/03 03:01 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Sclorch obviously could not understand my comment so I'll elaborate.

It's seems apparent from Swami's posts that he is not actually interested in the evidence provided through independant verification since it does not meet his standards of legitimacy.

He has made this decision despite the fact that he has probably never considered the legitmacy of the evidence on a case by case basis and sees no need to unless it supports his already firmly planted emipirical observations.

He is a debunker. He has already developed his beliefs and is unwilling to put forth any effort to follow challenging opinions to their logical conclusion.

No harm done. I just find this to be ignorant of spontaneous events which suggest something beyond the realm of current scientific understanding (which there are many).

Now I don't suggest blindly following beliefs either. It is absolutely neccessary to remain skeptical but open minded to unpopular and popular beliefs alike.

He mentioned reincarnation in his orignal post. This shows me that he has not looked at this topic objectively because there is independant evidence which does suggest this.

I wouldn't be willing to say definatively that reincarnation exists because I know that there are other options available. Untill all of the options are eliminated though (and in many cases they can't be) these cases provide evidence whether you like it or not. Just because it was not the result of a reproducable experiment in a lab which was controlled specifically by you does not mean that the results are untrue.

Most of what we know to be fact are things which we have not observed with our own senses. Even these beliefs are often debunked on the fringes of science. To assume that we are really in a position to say anything for certain is ignorant of the unkown.

But that's just my opinion.



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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Independent Verification [Re: MindTrap]
    #1871709 - 09/01/03 03:51 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Sclorch obviously could not understand my comment so I'll elaborate.
Sclorch is one of the more brilliant minds on this forum. How many here will get their doctorate degree?

It's seems apparent from Swami's posts that he is not actually interested in the evidence provided through independant verification since it does not meet his standards of legitimacy.
False assumption.

He has made this decision despite the fact that he has probably never considered the legitmacy of the evidence on a case by case basis and sees no need to unless it supports his already firmly planted emipirical observations.
More erroneous psychobabble...

He is a debunker. He has already developed his beliefs and is unwilling to put forth any effort to follow challenging opinions to their logical conclusion.
Apparently my persona is more interesting to you than the topic at hand.

No harm done. I just find this to be ignorant of spontaneous events which suggest something beyond the realm of current scientific understanding (which there are many).
No, but there is FREQUENT harm done by belief in unproven phenomenon.

Now I don't suggest blindly following beliefs either. It is absolutely neccessary to remain skeptical but open minded to unpopular and popular beliefs alike.
OK.

He mentioned reincarnation in his orignal post. This shows me that he has not looked at this topic objectively because there is independant evidence which does suggest this.
There are questionable anecdotes which support this, not real evidence.

I wouldn't be willing to say definatively that reincarnation exists because I know that there are other options available.
Yet you make an issue of my pointing out those other possible explanations...

Untill all of the options are eliminated though (and in many cases they can't be) these cases provide evidence whether you like it or not.
It has nothing to do with "like" or "dislike". I would like for there to be life-after-death, telekinesis and current alien visitation. It is just that the "evidence" never stands up under scrutiny - simple as that.

Just because it was not the result of a reproducable experiment in a lab which was controlled specifically by you does not mean that the results are untrue.
Of course it doesn't. But neither does it make it true when the witness to such an event comes to an erroneous conclusion and presents it as fact.

Most of what we know to be fact are things which we have not observed with our own senses.
I have never observed elctron flow, but that fact that things are fabricated around this premise and ACTUALLY work is darn good evidence.

...is ignorant of the unkown.
Nothing quite like a redundant statement.


But that's just my opinion.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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