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Offlinesirreal
devoid
Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 1,775
Loc: In the borderlands
Last seen: 16 years, 11 months
Re: Independent Verification [Re: Swami]
    #1874919 - 09/02/03 04:45 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

"I was in an old deserted house and 10 witnesses with me heard a creeking noise, yet no one was there ."





What about the ten witnesses?Were they being totally still?





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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Independent Verification [Re: MindTrap]
    #1874933 - 09/02/03 04:50 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

If this irrational man were to walk around shooting fireballs out of his ass I assure you it would be very paranormal indeed.

He could have had a methane build-up from the frijoles he ate last night and the static discharge from his polyester pants ignited the volatile gas and voila! No need to bring in SHC or...


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineMindTrap
Disembodiedvoice
Registered: 08/02/02
Posts: 349
Loc: It's all in your head...
Last seen: 19 years, 3 months
Re: Independent Verification [Re: Swami]
    #1874940 - 09/02/03 04:52 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Occam's razor is a usefull tool. But certainly you would not agree that it has applied to the discovery of all scientific proofs.

Your example was weak for certain.

Do you disagree that people have experienced what is considered in our culture 'plotergeist activity' throughout recorded history and beyond cultural barriers? Do you dispute the fact that many organizations (including our own CIA) have found the evidence for such things as telepathy and telekinesis compelling enough to invest large sums of money on research? Do you dispute the fact that anyone with an open mind can produce startling effects from a mediumistic device such as a ouija board?

It has everything to do with popularity. A couple hundred years ago it was more popular in this country to believe in the Christian God then place faith in science.

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OfflineMindTrap
Disembodiedvoice
Registered: 08/02/02
Posts: 349
Loc: It's all in your head...
Last seen: 19 years, 3 months
Re: Independent Verification [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1874947 - 09/02/03 04:54 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

What I am saying is to not let the magic trick you into a belief that isn't supported.[b/]

What should we do in the event that a supported belief is not available to account for our experience?

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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Independent Verification [Re: MindTrap]
    #1874950 - 09/02/03 04:54 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

There were also many fringe concepts that never made it... what makes anything you come up with different from those?


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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OfflineMindTrap
Disembodiedvoice
Registered: 08/02/02
Posts: 349
Loc: It's all in your head...
Last seen: 19 years, 3 months
Re: Independent Verification [Re: MindTrap]
    #1874956 - 09/02/03 04:55 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

He could have had a methane build-up from the frijoles he ate last night and the static discharge from his polyester pants ignited the volatile gas and voila! No need to bring in SHC or...

Right! And any serious investigator worth their salt would have checked this out immediately.

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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Independent Verification [Re: MindTrap]
    #1874962 - 09/02/03 04:57 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Mindtrap: What should we do in the event that a supported belief is not available to account for our experience?

You shouldn't jump to conclusions.
You should dog-ear it as "no explanation", throw it on the back burner, and move on.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Swami Ouija Board Challenge [Re: MindTrap]
    #1874968 - 09/02/03 05:00 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Do you dispute the fact that anyone with an open mind can produce startling effects from a mediumistic device such as a ouija board?

We could banter forever. However, I will put up an even money bet of $10,000 that nothing out of the ordinary that can be VERIFIED by an independent judge(s) can be produced by using a Ouija Board. Naturally you will decline as has everyone else making any paranormal claim. And using my psychic prowess will predict that you will come up with a weak, albeit fanciful reason why you will back down even though it was basically your suggestion.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineMindTrap
Disembodiedvoice
Registered: 08/02/02
Posts: 349
Loc: It's all in your head...
Last seen: 19 years, 3 months
Re: Independent Verification [Re: MindTrap]
    #1874987 - 09/02/03 05:04 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

what makes anything you come up with different from those?

I'll reiterate my opinion. I do not subscribe to any concrete belief with regards to these anomalies. What I am arguing is that there is plenty of anecdotal evidence to suggest these things. If my experience matches those of others and a belief system has developed around these experiences which I share then why should I disregard these beliefs in their entirety?

The unkown is exactlly that. Ignoring thousands of years worth of spiritual experience seems unnecessary to me. Wouldn't it make more sense to develop a scientific method of analysing these spontaneous events in order to incorporate them into our world view? There should be some room for unpopular beliefs in science as science is constantly evolving.

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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Swami Ouija Board Challenge [Re: Swami]
    #1874989 - 09/02/03 05:05 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Ouija Boards, if truly capable of indicating paranormal activity, should be able to work just fine with the participants blindfolded.
Correct or incorrect?


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Swami Ouija Board Challenge [Re: Sclorch]
    #1874995 - 09/02/03 05:06 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Wouldn't it make more sense to develop a scientific method of analysing these spontaneous events in order to incorporate them into our world view?

Weren't you just bashing empiricism a minute ago?
:baffled:


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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OfflineMindTrap
Disembodiedvoice
Registered: 08/02/02
Posts: 349
Loc: It's all in your head...
Last seen: 19 years, 3 months
Re: Independent Verification [Re: MindTrap]
    #1875047 - 09/02/03 05:31 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

You shouldn't jump to conclusions.

I don't think that considering these options is jumping to conclusions. I prefer to remain open minded to the possibilties.

I do not believe that all persons who have had these experiences are quacking clerics. I believe these things happen to ordinary people under ordinary circumstances and without rhyme or reason. I have come to this conclusion based on my own experiences and my observation of the experiences of others.

Do you have $10,000.00 to wager Swami? Perhaps I can find someone to work with me in developing this phenomena to the point of consistent reliability enough to satisfy your tests. This has been done before. Have you ever heard of the Philip experiment? Need independant verification of this phenomena? How about a reputable witness?

How about Stephen Braude, Professor of the philosophy department at the University of Maryland who became interested in the possibility of psychic phenomena only after experiencing for himself the levitation of a table during an impromptu seance he was introduced to by two of his friends. The results of which in his words "scared the hell out of me."

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OfflineMindTrap
Disembodiedvoice
Registered: 08/02/02
Posts: 349
Loc: It's all in your head...
Last seen: 19 years, 3 months
Re: Independent Verification [Re: MindTrap]
    #1875067 - 09/02/03 05:39 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Weren't you just bashing empiricism a minute ago?

I'm not talking about empiricism. Scientific reasoning currently has no use for spontaneous anecdotal evidence which is proven by your own logic in this debate. I suggest that there should be a scientific model which includes these anecdotal experiences instead of ignoring them.

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OfflineMindTrap
Disembodiedvoice
Registered: 08/02/02
Posts: 349
Loc: It's all in your head...
Last seen: 19 years, 3 months
Re: Independent Verification [Re: MindTrap]
    #1875072 - 09/02/03 05:39 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

ja Boards, if truly capable of indicating paranormal activity, should be able to work just fine with the participants blindfolded.
Correct or incorrect?


Why do you make this assumption? Do you know something I do not?

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Independent Verification [Re: MindTrap]
    #1875839 - 09/02/03 09:23 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Do you have $10,000.00 to wager Swami? Perhaps I can find someone to work with me in developing this phenomena to the point of consistent reliability enough to satisfy your tests. This has been done before. Have you ever heard of the Philip experiment? Need independant verification of this phenomena? How about a reputable witness?

How about Stephen Braude, Professor of the philosophy department at the University of Maryland who became interested in the possibility of psychic phenomena only after experiencing for himself the levitation of a table during an impromptu seance he was introduced to by two of his friends. The results of which in his words "scared the hell out of me."


I really don't care about those guys. I am talking to YOU about YOUR claim. I made a public wager and am ready to back it up. I am NOT about spouting endless words, but about action and putting these things to a real-world test.

In three years, here is the math:

Shroomery members solid paranormal claims: 156

Swami Challenges: 38

Money Bet Takers: 1

Money Bet Failures: 1

Money Bet Renegers: 1

Friendly Challenge Takers: 24

Friendly Challenge Failures: 24

Will this time be ANY different? I think my fan club ALREADY knows the answer...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Offlinefalcon
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 8,044
Last seen: 28 minutes, 43 seconds
Re: Independent Verification [Re: Swami]
    #1875925 - 09/02/03 09:50 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

The talents you would like to see are if they exist priceless. Anyone who has one of these talents and would like to be wealthy, is. It may be that if you get someone to take your bet and pay up when they fail, that they are jerking you around.
Are you just beating the bush for some other psychic hunter?


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Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
I have done it before and it never has an effect on the true believer so what is the point?



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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/07/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Re: Independent Verification [Re: Swami]
    #1875927 - 09/02/03 09:51 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I think my fan club ALREADY knows the answer...




:rolleyes:


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.

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OfflineDoctorJ
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
Loc: space
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: Independent Verification [Re: Jellric]
    #1875940 - 09/02/03 09:58 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Swami is the guru of skeptics, LOL :smile:

Now I know that there is no such thing as the paranormal...

...Because Swami said so!!!!
:smile: :smile: :smile:

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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/07/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Re: Independent Verification [Re: MindTrap]
    #1876024 - 09/02/03 10:32 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

This has been a pretty interesting thread, but it has reached the point where it's shedding more heat than light. MindTrap had Swami on the ropes a couple of times earlier in the thread, but he used some rhetorical tricks to wiggle out. (Not to say he hasn't made valid points also). If there had been some follow-up you might have had Swami on the canvas for a moment. It seems a bit sad to see Swami stooping to attacking someone's grammar rather than their point, using childish editing of quotes to make someone look silly, etc. To me this thread has become sad and endicative of the uselessness of this type of debate.

This thread just points out the pointlessness of debating spiritual/supernatural claims. In one corner you have the skeptics trying to apply rationality and the scientific method to a realm it's clearly unsuited for. In the other corner you have the believers weighing in with abstract language and largely anecdotal evidence. BOTH these realms exist and are valid in their own right. The trouble begins when you try to reconcile the two using rules exclusive to the other.

I'm sorry, but it just makes me sad when I see believers trying to prove points to disbelievers..spritualists presenting photos with weird lights in them, pictures of UFOs, etc. Who gives a damn whether they believe or not? Let them be. If you are obsessed with proving something, you have to ask at some point whether you have doubts yourself.

And skeptics, get off your high horse. Science has not discovered everything there is to know and never will. This universe is full of wonder, check into it. It's one of the things that makes life worth living. Stop ridiculing claimants- that's one of the chief weapons obsolete scientists have used against practically every leading-edge scientist in history. (See my sig). If you're ridiciculing someone you have to ask at some point whether you doubt your own position.


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I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Independent Verification [Re: Jellric]
    #1876084 - 09/02/03 10:57 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

And skeptics, get off your high horse.
It is not skeptics who are defrauding millions of people, now is it?

Science has not discovered everything there is to know and never will. This universe is full of wonder, check into it.
Wow! Science and wonder are at opposite ends of the spectrum? Not even remotely close. Scientists are curious by nature. Understanding what causes lightning (once though to be supernatural until some skeptic checked it out) does not detract from its awesomeness.

Stop ridiculing claimants-
Taking the time and effort to investigate and the willingness to test out these claims shows a real interest. The sarcasm is merely a prod to get them out of their self-imposed lethargy and also take an interest. ("I can move objects with my mind, but am too lazy to show anyone this paradigm-shifting miracle. Think I'll go pop another beer...")

If you're ridiciculing someone you have to ask at some point whether you doubt your own position.
No, I don't. If I ridicule someone who believes John Edward is actually contacting their dead uncle ("Is there anyone here who knows anyone whose name begins with the letter "R"?") it is merely stating that I understand how cold-reading works.



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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