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InvisibleSclorch
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Einstein's Internal Conflict
    #938290 - 10/07/02 02:04 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Here's something to think about:

Einstein insisted that there was no such thing as an inertial (read: universal) frame of reference, yet he is also quoted as saying "god does not play dice".

Discuss. :wink: 


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Anonymous

Re: Einstein's Internal Conflict [Re: Sclorch]
    #938314 - 10/07/02 02:10 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I have been thinking about that statement for a long time now.

I haved reached the conclusion that although He may not play dice I am sure He has engaged in some high stakes Poker from time to time. (prolly plays backgammon too)

Cheers,


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Invisiblematts
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Re: Einstein's Internal Conflict [Re: Sclorch]
    #938315 - 10/07/02 02:10 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Einstein's Internal Conflict [Re: matts]
    #938359 - 10/07/02 02:22 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

how do you compare inertia to god?

I'm not.
If there is no universal, inertial frame of reference (Einstein pt. 1), then how can there be a god (which is a universal or absolute power)?

If you don't know what an inertial frame of reference is, don't feel stupid... just look here.


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Invisiblematts
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Re: Einstein's Internal Conflict [Re: Sclorch]
    #938379 - 10/07/02 02:29 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Einstein's Internal Conflict [Re: matts]
    #938437 - 10/07/02 03:17 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

{The original intent of this thread was one of psychology/personal philosophy... not science, but if I gotta explain the components of the question... I will.}

You would understand my question better if you familiarized yourself with Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity (I assumed you were, sorry).

If the speed of light is constant (as Einstein claimed), then anyone who measures the speed of light will get the same value for c (no matter if they are in different inertial frames of reference).

Example:
Two events that are simultaneous in one reference frame are in general not simultaneous in a second frame moving in respect to the first. That is, simultaneity is not an absolute concept.

At this point, you might wonder which observer is right concerning the two events. The answer is that both are correct because the principle of relativity states that there is no preferred inertial frame of reference.

Got me?

So... Einstein believed in relativity AND he believed in absolutes (God). Discuss.


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InvisibleIn(di)go
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Re: Einstein's Internal Conflict [Re: Sclorch]
    #938520 - 10/07/02 06:03 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

hehehehe... i know the answer!  :grin:

i would like to elaborate right now, but i don't have the time... i'll be back later


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OfflineMetasyn
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Re: Einstein's Internal Conflict [Re: Sclorch]
    #938792 - 10/07/02 08:28 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I think Einstein's version of God was someone or something that set the laws of nature and the initial conditions of the universe (including the law of no absolute reference frames). His goal was to discover the laws of the universe and hence God's thoughts. I don't see how this idea conflicts with anything he (or anyone else) has discovered.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Einstein's Internal Conflict [Re: Metasyn]
    #939112 - 10/07/02 10:14 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

"My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind."
-AE

"At any rate, I am convinced that He [God] does not play dice."
Albert Einstein, In a letter to Max Born, 1926

Both of these quotes suggest that Einstein's concept of God was not just the "prime mover". The word "does" from the second quote indicates that God is currently not fond of playing dice.


I think I have established the fact that Einstein held two conflicting ideas about the universe... these ideas DO conflict, there will be no mending. That's just how it is.

Now, where were we? Oh yeah... DISCUSS.


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Anonymous

Re: Einstein's Internal Conflict [Re: Sclorch]
    #939417 - 10/07/02 12:05 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Wow! Thank you for that quote!

I always thought it said, "At any rate, I am convinced that He [God] does not play nice."

Not nice! Dice! Wow, and all these years I thought.......

Discuss.


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OfflineStS
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Re: Einstein's Internal Conflict [Re: Sclorch]
    #939621 - 10/07/02 01:12 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

an inertial (read: universal)




I think you have a wrong idea here.  Inertial does not mean or suggest universal.  A better way to say what Einstein mean would be to say that there is no such thing as a universal, inertial frame of reference.  Inertial means a frame of reference conaining motion (time).  Einsteins idea of God would be a sum of all frames of reference.  Therefore he in no way held conflicting ideas. :tongue:


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Einstein's Internal Conflict [Re: StS]
    #939707 - 10/07/02 01:32 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I agree. I see no conflict, unless you assume that the God that Einstein is talking about has a physical presence limited by physical laws.


And there might be no inertial frame of reference. But there is a frame of reference and it is you. The speed of light is constant to you or any other frame of reference. Is this not a universal constant? Maybe God is Light.

discuss.


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OfflineStS
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Re: Einstein's Internal Conflict [Re: infidelGOD]
    #939816 - 10/07/02 02:06 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

God is also dark.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Einstein's Internal Conflict [Re: StS]
    #939836 - 10/07/02 02:12 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

God is everything. I think to say that the existence of God conflicts with ANY physical law, you would have to make some huge assumptions about the nature of God.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Einstein's Internal Conflict [Re: infidelGOD]
    #939942 - 10/07/02 02:43 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

StS-
Yeah... blah blah blah... I scrambled my terminology a bit... I meant absolute frame of reference (a universal inertial frame... the only frame not in flux).

StS: Einsteins idea of God would be a sum of all frames of reference. Therefore he in no way held conflicting ideas.

Hmm...
I've never read anything of Einstein's that indicated he, too, felt that way. It is an interesting idea though.

Also, I don't think internal conflict is necessarily a bad thing. James Joyce would probably agree with me on that one.

InfidelGOD: I see no conflict, unless you assume that the God that Einstein is talking about has a physical presence limited by physical laws.

In order for something to have an effect on reality, it must physically manifest it's will somehow. So, when Einstein declared that there is no absolute frame of reference, he was referring to the physical universe only then... I can accept that. It is still interesting to note that he had different sets of rules for the physical and the metaphysical, is it not?


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Einstein's Internal Conflict [Re: Sclorch]
    #940020 - 10/07/02 03:06 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah, that is interesting. You can't expect a genious like Einstein to have completely consistent beliefs. He was conficted about a lot of things like the Hubble Constant and his "fudge factor" - expansion. He called it the "greatest mistake of my life" but it turned out he was right - intuitively - he just didn't have the information that Hubble discovered later.

He ultimately couldn't reconcile his belief in God with his view of the physical world. Great minds are often the most conflicted minds, while simple minds are assured of their beliefs. I try to hold on loosely to my beliefs, fully aware of the paradoxes that plague them.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Einstein's Internal Conflict [Re: infidelGOD]
    #940037 - 10/07/02 03:12 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

This is more the kind of response I was hoping for. Thanks.


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Offlinevaporbrains
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Re: Einstein's Internal Conflict [Re: Sclorch]
    #940060 - 10/07/02 03:21 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

uh...perhaps the various frames of reference are governed deterministicly?


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Einstein's Internal Conflict [Re: vaporbrains]
    #940116 - 10/07/02 03:36 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Determinism is not really an issue here.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Einstein's Internal Conflict [Re: Sclorch]
    #1610407 - 06/05/03 05:03 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

don't mind me, I'm just lost in time


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