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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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InvisibleSclorch
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Einstein's Internal Conflict
    #938290 - 10/07/02 09:04 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Here's something to think about:

Einstein insisted that there was no such thing as an inertial (read: universal) frame of reference, yet he is also quoted as saying "god does not play dice".

Discuss. :wink: 


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Anonymous

Re: Einstein's Internal Conflict [Re: Sclorch]
    #938314 - 10/07/02 09:10 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

I have been thinking about that statement for a long time now.

I haved reached the conclusion that although He may not play dice I am sure He has engaged in some high stakes Poker from time to time. (prolly plays backgammon too)

Cheers,


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Invisiblematts
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Re: Einstein's Internal Conflict [Re: Sclorch]
    #938315 - 10/07/02 09:10 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Einstein's Internal Conflict [Re: matts]
    #938359 - 10/07/02 09:22 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

how do you compare inertia to god?

I'm not.
If there is no universal, inertial frame of reference (Einstein pt. 1), then how can there be a god (which is a universal or absolute power)?

If you don't know what an inertial frame of reference is, don't feel stupid... just look here.


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Invisiblematts
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Re: Einstein's Internal Conflict [Re: Sclorch]
    #938379 - 10/07/02 09:29 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Einstein's Internal Conflict [Re: matts]
    #938437 - 10/07/02 10:17 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

{The original intent of this thread was one of psychology/personal philosophy... not science, but if I gotta explain the components of the question... I will.}

You would understand my question better if you familiarized yourself with Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity (I assumed you were, sorry).

If the speed of light is constant (as Einstein claimed), then anyone who measures the speed of light will get the same value for c (no matter if they are in different inertial frames of reference).

Example:
Two events that are simultaneous in one reference frame are in general not simultaneous in a second frame moving in respect to the first. That is, simultaneity is not an absolute concept.

At this point, you might wonder which observer is right concerning the two events. The answer is that both are correct because the principle of relativity states that there is no preferred inertial frame of reference.

Got me?

So... Einstein believed in relativity AND he believed in absolutes (God). Discuss.


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InvisibleIn(di)go
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Re: Einstein's Internal Conflict [Re: Sclorch]
    #938520 - 10/07/02 01:03 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

hehehehe... i know the answer!  :grin:

i would like to elaborate right now, but i don't have the time... i'll be back later


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InvisibleMetasyn
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Re: Einstein's Internal Conflict [Re: Sclorch]
    #938792 - 10/07/02 03:28 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

I think Einstein's version of God was someone or something that set the laws of nature and the initial conditions of the universe (including the law of no absolute reference frames). His goal was to discover the laws of the universe and hence God's thoughts. I don't see how this idea conflicts with anything he (or anyone else) has discovered.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Einstein's Internal Conflict [Re: Metasyn]
    #939112 - 10/07/02 05:14 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

"My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind."
-AE

"At any rate, I am convinced that He [God] does not play dice."
Albert Einstein, In a letter to Max Born, 1926

Both of these quotes suggest that Einstein's concept of God was not just the "prime mover". The word "does" from the second quote indicates that God is currently not fond of playing dice.


I think I have established the fact that Einstein held two conflicting ideas about the universe... these ideas DO conflict, there will be no mending. That's just how it is.

Now, where were we? Oh yeah... DISCUSS.


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Anonymous

Re: Einstein's Internal Conflict [Re: Sclorch]
    #939417 - 10/07/02 07:05 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Wow! Thank you for that quote!

I always thought it said, "At any rate, I am convinced that He [God] does not play nice."

Not nice! Dice! Wow, and all these years I thought.......

Discuss.


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OfflineStS
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Re: Einstein's Internal Conflict [Re: Sclorch]
    #939621 - 10/07/02 08:12 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

an inertial (read: universal)




I think you have a wrong idea here.  Inertial does not mean or suggest universal.  A better way to say what Einstein mean would be to say that there is no such thing as a universal, inertial frame of reference.  Inertial means a frame of reference conaining motion (time).  Einsteins idea of God would be a sum of all frames of reference.  Therefore he in no way held conflicting ideas. :tongue:


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"You took too much, man....too much, too much!"


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Einstein's Internal Conflict [Re: StS]
    #939707 - 10/07/02 08:32 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

I agree. I see no conflict, unless you assume that the God that Einstein is talking about has a physical presence limited by physical laws.


And there might be no inertial frame of reference. But there is a frame of reference and it is you. The speed of light is constant to you or any other frame of reference. Is this not a universal constant? Maybe God is Light.

discuss.


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OfflineStS
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Re: Einstein's Internal Conflict [Re: infidelGOD]
    #939816 - 10/07/02 09:06 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

God is also dark.


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"You took too much, man....too much, too much!"


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Einstein's Internal Conflict [Re: StS]
    #939836 - 10/07/02 09:12 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

God is everything. I think to say that the existence of God conflicts with ANY physical law, you would have to make some huge assumptions about the nature of God.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Einstein's Internal Conflict [Re: infidelGOD]
    #939942 - 10/07/02 09:43 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

StS-
Yeah... blah blah blah... I scrambled my terminology a bit... I meant absolute frame of reference (a universal inertial frame... the only frame not in flux).

StS: Einsteins idea of God would be a sum of all frames of reference. Therefore he in no way held conflicting ideas.

Hmm...
I've never read anything of Einstein's that indicated he, too, felt that way. It is an interesting idea though.

Also, I don't think internal conflict is necessarily a bad thing. James Joyce would probably agree with me on that one.

InfidelGOD: I see no conflict, unless you assume that the God that Einstein is talking about has a physical presence limited by physical laws.

In order for something to have an effect on reality, it must physically manifest it's will somehow. So, when Einstein declared that there is no absolute frame of reference, he was referring to the physical universe only then... I can accept that. It is still interesting to note that he had different sets of rules for the physical and the metaphysical, is it not?


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Einstein's Internal Conflict [Re: Sclorch]
    #940020 - 10/07/02 10:06 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah, that is interesting. You can't expect a genious like Einstein to have completely consistent beliefs. He was conficted about a lot of things like the Hubble Constant and his "fudge factor" - expansion. He called it the "greatest mistake of my life" but it turned out he was right - intuitively - he just didn't have the information that Hubble discovered later.

He ultimately couldn't reconcile his belief in God with his view of the physical world. Great minds are often the most conflicted minds, while simple minds are assured of their beliefs. I try to hold on loosely to my beliefs, fully aware of the paradoxes that plague them.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Einstein's Internal Conflict [Re: infidelGOD]
    #940037 - 10/07/02 10:12 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

This is more the kind of response I was hoping for. Thanks.


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Offlinevaporbrains
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Re: Einstein's Internal Conflict [Re: Sclorch]
    #940060 - 10/07/02 10:21 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

uh...perhaps the various frames of reference are governed deterministicly?


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Einstein's Internal Conflict [Re: vaporbrains]
    #940116 - 10/07/02 10:36 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Determinism is not really an issue here.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Einstein's Internal Conflict [Re: Sclorch]
    #1610407 - 06/05/03 12:03 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

don't mind me, I'm just lost in time


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: Einstein's Internal Conflict [Re: Sclorch]
    #1610827 - 06/05/03 05:03 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Do you think that most people tend to not seperate science and "spirituality"? i understand physics... and science.. thats how things work in our "reality". Maybe einstein thought there were things that did not need to operate on the basis of our "known" limited understanding of physics... This is where i think different densities come into play. Different dimensions might account for the misunderstanding between rules for the physical and that of the metaphysical, or the laws of physics that we understand. If what you say is true for something to happen there must be a manifestation... a non zero to interfere. That would be easy if say you believed in 4th dimensional beings that could transfer to the third... causing a displacement and a non zero value.

and to my knowledge which Einstein described was this 3d universe.. Whether he thought the forces were in 3d or elsewhere... i dont know. but to me... if i can come to any conclusion on anything... it would probably be most close to that description. i dont know... i hope im following you on this one.


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What?


Edited by Zero7a1 (06/05/03 05:15 PM)


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Offline11polakie11
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Re: Einstein's Internal Conflict [Re: Zero7a1]
    #1610952 - 06/05/03 06:50 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

why are people so down on paradox all the time?

so what if einstein held contradictory beleifs? couldn't they, in a sense, both be true at the same time? or false at the same time?

how much of this is perception? the frame of reference is completely based on perception, and how rarely do any of us step into a 'seperate' frame to consider the perceptive experience through that frame?

not much. but perhaps god is light, since, if light is a constant value perceived in every frame of reference, light {god} stitches together the infinte variations of referential frames, a sort of permeating ether which is both intrinsic and extrinsic (in the gaps between things and that of which things are themselves)

god might be both within and without, present or absent depending on our will to perceive things how we want to - maybe ?


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InvisibleOlgualion
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Re: Einstein's Internal Conflict [Re: 11polakie11]
    #1611120 - 06/05/03 08:15 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I don't think he contradicted himself at all. God is the singularity that everything breaks down to. Physics cannot predict what is going to happen at that singularity. The whole problem with physics is that we try to view things from our earthly perspective (or any single perspective) too often. The only place we would be able to say there is a single reference point would be so close to the singularity that there would be essentially no such thing as time. I wrote an idea I have relating "All That Is" to the infinity sign. It is in a post created by MJShroomer in the pub - earth as viewed from mars - I believe was the title.

Take a look at my sig.


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Study the past...
See the future...


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OfflineCougheeman
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Re: Einstein's Internal Conflict [Re: Olgualion]
    #1611705 - 06/05/03 10:30 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

"Einstein explained time as a fourth dimension, in his special theory of relativity. In his theory he discarded the idea of absolute time- of a steady, unvarying, inexorable, universal flow of time streaming from the infinite past to the infinite future. He explained that the sense of time is a form of perception, like the color sense. What we call a year is only a measure of earth's progress in its orbit around the sun. But for an inhabitant of Mercury, a year and a day amount to the same thing, because Mercury makes its trip around the sun in 88 of our days, and in that period rotates just once on its axis. But now we are aware that all our terrestrial ideas of time are meaningless when we soar beyond the neighborhood of the sun. According to Einstein's theory of relativity, there is no such thing as a fixed interval of time independent of the system to which it is referred; and there is no such thing as "now," independent of a system of reference."



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Aum Namah Sivaya


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: Einstein's Internal Conflict [Re: 11polakie11]
    #1611840 - 06/05/03 11:02 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Maybe :smile: i agree with what you said more or less. To me god exists on how you percieve like you said... God. i think there is no real TIME because... what do you have it to compare it to... it seems as though people try to define a sense of time... something finite... out of somethign that is rather infinite... i dont know... just a thought i guess


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What?


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Einstein's Internal Conflict [Re: Zero7a1]
    #1612088 - 06/06/03 12:27 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)


Einstein might have said those 2 quotes at different times in his life. His theroy might have changed between those 2 periods.

Or maybe they only seem to conflict with another but do not bacause of a lack in a deeper explanation of what he really maens.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: Einstein's Internal Conflict [Re: Murex]
    #1612944 - 06/06/03 05:33 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

to me this understanding is a progression of understanding... a period in which maybe he "logically" or conciouslly came to certain finds about the world around himmm... but maybe there is a space left in betweenn that of ambiguity. making it hard for us to understand the connection between these two seemingly seperate ideas. To me this is how my thoughts seem to run... and why my postsss are lik putty... maybe thats just me... but to me thats just how i think it probably happened for him. Probably highlighted by this quote " Imagination is more important than knowledge". I think he even said... that without the ability to imagine and step out of bounds... what use is knowledge... what is knowledge with out some sort of creative motive... Knowledge then becomes useless without an imagination to use it. Dreamers..Dreamers...Dreamers.....


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What?


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OfflineVulture
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Re: Einstein's Internal Conflict [Re: Zero7a1]
    #1613033 - 06/06/03 06:03 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

.....you do realize that the recently proved that light is NOT CONSTANT. It slows down with time....they just now noticed it because it happens so slow its just recently clowed enough to be measurably slower than before. Although it NEVER the same speed and always slowing....it so minute that you cant measure it with todays standards.


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Love like you never been hurt.

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OfflineMurex
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Re: Einstein's Internal Conflict [Re: Vulture]
    #1613106 - 06/06/03 06:29 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)


Light does disapate. If it didn't, there would be light everywhere.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: Einstein's Internal Conflict [Re: Vulture]
    #1613799 - 06/06/03 11:12 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

did i say light was constant? it is being acted upon by outside forces... that and light has mass... so as long as there is something in the universe... wouldnt it be slowed down? why would they need test data to prove that... if they know that light travels in particles, that light has mass... you know photons... little packages. wouldnt that also explain why it can be "pulled in" by black holes?


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What?


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Einstein's Internal Conflict [Re: Zero7a1]
    #1614554 - 06/06/03 09:23 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Light has mass now? Always?

Don't forget that whole wave/particle duality thingamajig.


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: Einstein's Internal Conflict [Re: Sclorch]
    #1614707 - 06/06/03 10:28 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

"Then wherever there is mass there is energy and wherever there is energy there is mass. In that case photons have mass but we call it relativistic mass. Another way to use Einstein's equation would be to keep mass and energy as separate and use it as an equation which applies when mass is converted in energy or energy is converted to mass as in nuclear reactions. The mass is then independent of velocity and is closer to the old Newtonian concept. In that case only total of energy and mass would be conserved but it seems better to try to keep conservation of energy. The interpretation most widely used is a compromise in which mass is invariant and always has energy so that total energy is conserved but kinetic energy and radiation does not have mass. The distinction is purely a matter of semantic convention."

link to quote
here

I should have said this before... but I dont know... i would be happy to be enlightened by someone...! if anyone is up to the task. im just glad someone is replying.

besided physics why would you have to include god in his ideas? to me it seems like you are trying to say that by coming to an understanding of physics you will somehow find your way to god. Sounds like your trying to scientifically prove that god exists. You gave an interpretation of Eisteins theory and tried to combine them, forming your own opinion about the relationship between god, einstein, physics and the physical universe... maybe you didnt but thats just what it seems like.

if im missing some connection, and you respond to my posts.. i would appreciate a filling in of the gaps i seem to be missing. if it seems like im making a false assumption its only cause i see a lack of connection between the topics. to me it seems only a difference of opinion.

where was einsteins internal conflict?


maybe that is the nature of light, it is part of a whole which we know as universe. a part then limited in space and time so to speak. in its little packages. a sort of optical dillusion... not udnerstanding the own nature of its existance. plants take in light, they use it to tranform it to chemical energy. thus embracing all living creatures. we are light and hydrogen... basically. the belief on the creation of the very thing that makes us who we are... our dna. the fusion of light energy in the atmosphere with hydrogen molecules. giving a new breed, a dynamic ability of hydrogen to replicate itself. to pair and bond, more or less how it wishes. hydrogen is THE most basic element, next to helium.

i memorized this quote

"A human being is part of a whole, called by us, universe. a part limited in space and time. He experiences himself, his thoughts and actions as something seperated from the rest, a kind of optical dillusion of his conciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to the affection of a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures, and the whole of nature in its beauty."



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What?


Edited by Zero7a1 (06/06/03 10:44 PM)


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: Einstein's Internal Conflict [Re: Zero7a1]
    #1614778 - 06/06/03 10:51 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

maybe this is god this is life and eternity. who we are? we are space dust collected together. fundamentally hydrogen.. or fundamentally light and hydrogen.. light created by hydrogen... we dont "die". for maybe god in the science world is hydrogen... the never ending particle which creates all other particles. we go on forever... this is eternity. our bodies die... we return to star dust. star light star bright! maybe hydrogen is the apex... the summit of our medium in this existance of the 3d universe... our clay!


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What?


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