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Fospher
Crime FightingMaster Criminal


Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 2,033
Loc: The Netherlands
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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Diploid]
#5497422 - 04/09/06 06:37 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
1. Hagelin?s report stated violent crime had been reduced by 18%, but he failed to state what it was reduced compared to.
The previous year, Hagelin mentions so in the film.
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2. How did he know what the crime rate would have been without the TM?
He did not, but such a large deviation is highly improbable. If you can predict the average crime rate of a city based on decades of statistics, a 25% deviation is an obvious effect of an outside influence. Since no other influences have been found, it is logical to assume that the one variable that was set to decrease the outcome is it, is it not?
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3. It was discovered after the fact that the members of his "independent scientific review board" were not independent.
May I ask where you got the information of the supposed bias of independent scientific review?
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4. The results of the experiment have never been independently replicated.
You see, if it was a 5% decrease, this would have been a very valid point. But a QUARTER decrease in the statistics is such a heavy result, that with no other influence on the percentage found, it would be logical to assume the TM for the cause.
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5. And finally, after he published his work, attempts to independently verify his statistics found that, despite his claims of TM's success, the murder rate ROSE during the period in question. Hagelin MADE UP his data.
I've never heard of these contradictions and it's strange that the film would portray misinformation. Source?
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Ekstaza
stranger than most


Registered: 04/10/03
Posts: 4,324
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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Fospher]
#5501225 - 04/10/06 08:18 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I place no value in metaphysical mumbo jumbo. Give me some testable data to support your claim or I will dismiss it.
-------------------- YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.
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Fospher
Crime FightingMaster Criminal


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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Ekstaza]
#5501553 - 04/10/06 09:32 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Dont you understand?
I said it is impossible. You can't prove it, unless you experience it for yourself. And even then, the proof is only for your eyes and no one else. If you've seen the metaphysical, how can you prove your vision? Up to this day we do not have the capability to record and rewind our eyesight.
How do you know the world it is as you know it? Who gave you the authority to say that?
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Temptress
Butterfly


Registered: 01/31/06
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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Fospher]
#5501769 - 04/10/06 10:39 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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*yawn*
it was the metaphysiscians that set out to prove that prayer (and/or meditation) could affect external reality. they failed as all do.
simple.
-------------------- i have less ego than you do!
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funguyism
Stranger
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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Temptress]
#5502715 - 04/11/06 08:55 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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if there was a god, why would he favor some over others. the bible says that prayer works, but by whos definition does it work? a girl wants a pimple gone by prom and she prays to god to help her, a starving child dying from aids in africa prays for some food, still no food yet the pimple on the girl is gone, was what she experienced a miracle, and if it was, for what reasons did god ignore the sincere prayer? facts speak louder than faith. why? because facts make sense. once we get rid of what does not make sense, things start to make sense.
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Temptress
Butterfly


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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: funguyism]
#5503302 - 04/11/06 12:18 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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...and i asked u not to share my prom night and pimple story - sheesh!
-------------------- i have less ego than you do!
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Temptress
Butterfly


Registered: 01/31/06
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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Temptress]
#5503433 - 04/11/06 12:50 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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just noticed that this thread was moved because "you cannot question anothers beliefs". that is amazingly silly for two reasons:
1. a current news story relevant to mysticism was posted. "please temptress proteckt us from facts!" 2.why is it OK to question an atheists beliefs by posting non-facts? that is a double standard.
-------------------- i have less ego than you do!
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Temptress]
#5503487 - 04/11/06 01:08 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Temptress said:

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Fospher
Crime FightingMaster Criminal


Registered: 02/09/05
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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Temptress]
#5505091 - 04/11/06 07:47 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Is your method of persuasion ignoring everything the other person says and keep babbling unsupported rants?
Look, as I said before, just because something was set out to prove something non-existent, and it didnt happen, doesn't mean it doesn't exist, as I explained with an analogy earlier.
What's the purpose of your posts? Do you think you can actually convince someone to lose their belief in the paranormal by your sheer ignorance?
Have fun devoting your life to the dull grind of materialism and becoming worm food afterwards - other believers and myself will instead take full advantage of what life has to offer.
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Temptress
Butterfly


Registered: 01/31/06
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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Fospher]
#5505171 - 04/11/06 07:58 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Summation: a prayer group does a study to set out to prove prayer. the results are negative and are reported by temptress. fospher cannot handle it so attacks the poster and makes comments on her life that have zero bearing. a very immature response. 
"Please, we don't want no stinking facts."
-------------------- i have less ego than you do!
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Fospher
Crime FightingMaster Criminal


Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 2,033
Loc: The Netherlands
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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Temptress]
#5505745 - 04/11/06 09:30 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Temptress said: fospher cannot handle it so attacks the poster and makes comments on her life that have zero bearing. a very immature response.
Look - and you will find hypocricy in your own words. Do you not read and just post the same thing in different wording?
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Fospher
Crime FightingMaster Criminal


Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 2,033
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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Temptress]
#5506403 - 04/12/06 01:25 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Temptress said: "Please, we don't want no stinking facts."
Who said this? Your imaginary adversary who represents no one on this forum?
Hahaha! You can't lay a single fact that I haven't already given out a retort to.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Fospher]
#5506631 - 04/12/06 05:37 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Fospher said: Hahaha! You can't lay a single fact that I haven't already given out a retort to.
Doesn't mean your retort has any value, or that it reflects reality.
"Oooh, I can reply to anything you say! Better look out! 
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Fospher
Crime FightingMaster Criminal


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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: fireworks_god]
#5507745 - 04/12/06 11:31 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Then, by all means, feel free to object. Your statement, however, is meaningless.
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Shroomerious
OO


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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Fospher]
#5508297 - 04/12/06 02:07 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Hmm...I don't see this as a failed experiment. First of all there can be no failed experiment when you get a negative result. It is a result nevertheless. It is an answer. If you set that aside I don't think the study had finished nor do I think that it was proven that prayer does not help...on the contrary...
When people are told that they *may* be prayed for then they most probably put that in a small corner of their subconscious mind and the good thing about it is that they don't think whether the prayer will work. They don't doubt the prayer blocking it from working as most of the people that were told that they are definately prayed for do. They just think ok, I am on my own here but hmmm imagine if there are some people praying for me I'll be ok!! What I am trying to say is that it is easier for them to subconsciously accept the fact that the prayer will work and hence allowing it to possibly work.
Here I should say that I do not correlate prayers with any kind of religion. Prayers, at the end of the day, for me, are just positive thoughts. Not that I don't give a chance that a religion, single or many could be related but really I think that this is a narrow minded opinion although I don't dismiss it, hell I could be wrong, all people could! I just base my statistics on religion(as in what has more possibilities to be true-er) to my experiences in life so far. Now to the prayers.
The people that are told that some people pray for them put big emphasis and hope on that fact and in the process of doubting it they cause more bad because they may think that the other choice of recovering by themselves is not a very good one. Whereas the other people that were given simply the possibility take it more lightly, put it in their subconscious mind and think positively a lot easier.
All these are to say that you can not dismiss a whole study because of a few yet unexplained results. Don't say they work, don't say they don't, elaborate on the facts you got, that's all you can do....That's what I think.
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koppie
astral projectile


Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 2,653
Loc: cloud hidden
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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Shroomerious]
#5516787 - 04/14/06 05:54 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Of course the real reason why the study failed is because it didn't use the right kind of prayer:
from: http://www.interfax-religion.com/print.php?act=news&id=1173 ...thus proving that you can get any result you want when you mix metaphysics and physics. Either that or interfax has today even less credibility than it did in the Soviet days.
Quote:
The sign of the cross and Orthodox prayer are capable of killing microbes and change the optical properties of water - a study
Moscow, March 17, Interfax - Scientists have proved experimentally the miracle-working properties of the sign of the cross and prayer.
?We have ascertained that the old custom to make a sign of the cross over food and drink before a meal has a profound mystical meaning. Standing behind it is the practical use: the food is purified literally in an instant. This is a great miracle, which happens literally every day,? physicist Angelina Malakhovskaya said as cited by the Zhizn newspaper on Friday.
Malakhovskaya have studied that power of the sign of the cross with the blessing of the Church for nearly ten years now. She has carried out a great number of experiments, which have been repeatedly verified before their results were made public.
She has discovered in particular the unique bactericidal properties of water after being blessed by an Orthodox prayer and a sign of the cross. The study also revealed a new, earlier unknown property of the Word of God to transform the structure of water, increasing considerably its optical density in the short ultra-violet spectral region, the newspaper writes.
The scientists have verified the impact the Lord?s Prayer and the Orthodox sign of the cross make on pathogenic bacteria. Water samples from various reservoirs - wells, rivers, lakes - were taken for the research. All the samples had goldish taphylococcus, a colon bacillus. It turned out however, that if the Lord?s Prayer is said and a sign of the cross is made over them, the number of harmful bacteria will decrease seven, ten, hundred and even over thousand times.
The experiments were made in such a way as to exclude a possible impact of mental suggestion. The prayer was said by both believer and non-believers, but the number of pathogenic bacteria in various environments with different sets of bacteria still decreased as compared to the reference templates.
The scientists have also proved the beneficial impact that the prayer and the sign of the cross have on people. All the participants in the tests had their blood pressure stabilized and blood indexes improved. Strikingly, the indexes changed towards the healing needed: hypotensive people had their blood pressure raised, while hypertensive people had it reduced.
It was also observed that if the sign of the cross is made offhandedly, with the three fingers put together unscrupulously or placed outside the necessary points - the middle of the forehead, the center of the solar plexus and the recesses in the right and left shoulders - the positive result was much weaker or absent altogether.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: koppie]
#5517500 - 04/14/06 10:57 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
koppie said: ?We have ascertained that the old custom to make a sign of the cross over food and drink before a meal has a profound mystical meaning. Standing behind it is the practical use: the food is purified literally in an instant. This is a great miracle, which happens literally every day,? physicist Angelina Malakhovskaya said as cited by the Zhizn newspaper on Friday.
Bowl of Ramen Noodles.
Cyanide.
Let's test this one out.
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Shroomerious
OO


Registered: 07/27/03
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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: fireworks_god]
#5517673 - 04/15/06 12:15 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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lol
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