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Invisibleredtailedhawk
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God is not listening; Prayer Doesn't Improve Outcome for Heart Patients, Study Finds
    #4415053 - 07/17/05 02:16 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

An interesting study was published on Friday in the Lancet medical journal. 748 patients at nine U.S. medical centers were randomly chosen to receive off-site prayer, bedside therapy, both treatments or none. In the off-site prayer situation, Christian, Muslim, Jewish and Buddhist congregations were given patients' names and prayed for them for five to 30 days. As it worked out, survival rates did not differ among those who received prayer and those who did not. Bedside therapies using music and touch before surgery reduced stress and offered a slight advantage in survival rate among patients.

It seems that God is either not listening, was away on vacation at the time, or simply does not give a fuck about our moaning. Personally, I think I?ll continue to stick with the Castanedian interpretation of the Eagle, where God is only interested in our growing awareness and simply does not give a fuck about anything else.

I?m also interested in your point of view, though.

Link to Google News Thread on this story:

http://news.google.com/nwshp?hl=en&g...NG-TOUCH-DC.XML


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"Who are you who live in all these many forms? You're death that captures all. You too are the source of all that's gonna be born. You're glory, mercy, peace, truth. You give calm a spirit, understanding, courage, the contented heart."

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: God is not listening; Prayer Doesn't Improve Outcome for Heart Patients, Study Finds [Re: redtailedhawk]
    #4415074 - 07/17/05 02:25 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

"thy shall not tempt god"

perhapse god does not answer prayers that are practiced to test existence of god.

I know I wouldn't


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: God is not listening; Prayer Doesn't Improve Outcome for Heart Patients, Study Finds [Re: redtailedhawk]
    #4415081 - 07/17/05 02:28 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Prepare for a slopload of posts protesting this observation and "explaining" why prayer didn't work in this study.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: God is not listening; Prayer Doesn't Improve Outcome for Heart Patients, Study Finds [Re: Swami]
    #4415088 - 07/17/05 02:31 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I see OWS beat me to it with excuse #1.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: God is not listening; Prayer Doesn't Improve Outcome for Heart Patients, Study Finds [Re: Swami]
    #4415092 - 07/17/05 02:32 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I'm not sure I understand. Why are excuses, and proposed explanations forbiden?


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: God is not listening; Prayer Doesn't Improve Outcome for Heart Patients, Study Finds [Re: redtailedhawk]
    #4415101 - 07/17/05 02:37 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

The Buddhists probably prayed for them to have a better rebirth. :lol:


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: God is not listening; Prayer Doesn't Improve Outcome for Heart Patients, Study Finds [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4415142 - 07/17/05 02:48 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I'm not sure I understand. Why are excuses, and proposed explanations forbiden?
Where was the word "forbidden" or similar phrase anywhere in my post? Why do so many invent things that the poster never said?

In your previous post, you allege to possibly know the mind of God and you have zero basis for this. Hard to have a real discussion when using pure fabrication.

Here, let me try one and then let's have a rational discussion:

"Perhaps interdimensional squid intercepted the prayers and used them for food."


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: God is not listening; Prayer Doesn't Improve Outcome for Heart Patients, Study Finds [Re: Swami]
    #4415178 - 07/17/05 02:57 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

squids are never mentioned in texts that talk about god. Not tempting god is mentioned. I did not made that up, it's right there from where the idea of god came in the first place. We are talking about a god from a book, so in discussing it, we can use things from the same book


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: God is not listening; Prayer Doesn't Improve Outcome for Heart Patients, Study Finds [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4415187 - 07/17/05 02:59 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Not tempting god is mentioned.

Jesus said, "Ask and you shall receive."

Is that too clear and precise?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: God is not listening; Prayer Doesn't Improve Outcome for Heart Patients, Study Finds [Re: Swami]
    #4415210 - 07/17/05 03:04 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Tempting is not asking honestly, tempting is trying to get the god to prove himself.


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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OfflineSmallworlds
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Re: God is not listening; Prayer Doesn't Improve Outcome for Heart Patients, Study Finds [Re: Swami]
    #4415212 - 07/17/05 03:04 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

The prayers didn't originate from the sick, but from organizations attempting to turn prayer into something resembling fast food.

You cannot petition the Lord with prayer.

Prayers to God from the sick, or from their relatives, with the purpose of asking for God's help directly, heart to heart, would be certainly honored.


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Through the excercise of patience, one may learn humility..

Smoke plenty of green, and eat fungus!!!!
:peace::heart::slomo::gd_icon::gd_icon::gd_icon::slomo:


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: God is not listening; Prayer Doesn't Improve Outcome for Heart Patients, Study Finds [Re: Smallworlds]
    #4415227 - 07/17/05 03:07 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

yea, that was my point


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Invisibleorechron
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Re: God is not listening; Prayer Doesn't Improve Outcome for Heart Patients, Study Finds [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4415237 - 07/17/05 03:09 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I believe a study comparing individuals with terminal illnesses who used prayer to those who didn't would find similar death rates.


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Live by the foma that make you brave, and kind, and healthy, and happy.

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: God is not listening; Prayer Doesn't Improve Outcome for Heart Patients, Study Finds [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4415238 - 07/17/05 03:09 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Why wouldn't God want to prove himself?

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: God is not listening; Prayer Doesn't Improve Outcome for Heart Patients, Study Finds [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4415249 - 07/17/05 03:11 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Why wouldn't God want to prove himself?




because he has once, and the rest was up to trust between people

and it is a biblical virtue to believe even if you don't see


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Edited by OldWoodSpecter (07/17/05 03:12 PM)

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: God is not listening; Prayer Doesn't Improve Outcome for Heart Patients, Study Finds [Re: orechron]
    #4415258 - 07/17/05 03:13 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

orechron said:
I believe a study comparing individuals with terminal illnesses who used prayer to those who didn't would find similar death rates.




have you ever met a man dieing of cancer that believes he is going to survive? Prayer works with faith.

I don't think such patients have any faith in survival anymore


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: God is not listening; Prayer Doesn't Improve Outcome for Heart Patients, Study Finds [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4415284 - 07/17/05 03:17 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Huh? When? I musta missed it.

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Invisibleorechron
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Re: God is not listening; Prayer Doesn't Improve Outcome for Heart Patients, Study Finds [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4415291 - 07/17/05 03:17 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Prayer works when the laws of probability yield the result that was wished for. The instances when this works are naturally remembered more vividly than the ones where it failed leading people to believe that it is their prayer which resulted in the favorable outcome.


Can you give me an instance where prayer will likely work and can't be explained as a function of probability?


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Live by the foma that make you brave, and kind, and healthy, and happy.

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: God is not listening; Prayer Doesn't Improve Outcome for Heart Patients, Study Finds [Re: orechron]
    #4415317 - 07/17/05 03:22 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I don't doubt that prayer can have a placebo effect which may help patients recover from an illness.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: God is not listening; Prayer Doesn't Improve Outcome for Heart Patients, Study Finds [Re: Smallworlds]
    #4415361 - 07/17/05 03:32 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

You cannot petition the Lord with prayer.

Yea! Jim!


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: God is not listening; Prayer Doesn't Improve Outcome for Heart Patients, Study Finds [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4415364 - 07/17/05 03:32 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Huh? When? I musta missed it.





accoarding to the bible, you were not born yet, of course you missed it


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: God is not listening; Prayer Doesn't Improve Outcome for Heart Patients, Study Finds [Re: orechron]
    #4415369 - 07/17/05 03:34 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

orechron said:
Prayer works when the laws of probability yield the result that was wished for. The instances when this works are naturally remembered more vividly than the ones where it failed leading people to believe that it is their prayer which resulted in the favorable outcome.


Can you give me an instance where prayer will likely work and can't be explained as a function of probability?




no, but prayer is not for proving, it is for praying


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: God is not listening; Prayer Doesn't Improve Outcome for Heart Patients, Study Finds [Re: Icelander]
    #4415377 - 07/17/05 03:35 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I think weather people realize it or not, when they pray they are talking to themselves. If you give yourself a good enough pep talk, (self talk) you might just find yourself getting more motivated to get better.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflinePsiloman
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Re: God is not listening; Prayer Doesn't Improve Outcome for Heart Patients, Study Finds [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4415421 - 07/17/05 03:45 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Tempting is not asking honestly, tempting is trying to get the god to prove himself.




Let me put another parameter is as food for thought.To be fair i should also mention that im not a "christian",i was one, at least in the sense church would like me to be.

Now i believe than all religions in the world had their fair share of charismatic,intelligent people and some with amazing rhetorical prowess.They also had a lot of time to evolve,to answer questions that were mindbogling people and to brainstorm on answers for common questions.

The quotation above by woodspecter makes christian god "bulletproof" to all kind of research that could prove him or disaprove him. This is ,from a human point of view,a very clever way of dissaproving any systematic research that tries to shed light on Existence of God.Simply put,He/She/It wont appear if you try to test it ,so here goes testing out of the window for EVER,for AS LONG AS WE EXIST!

Another "bulletproof" phrase in my opinion is the "He moves in Mysterious ways".I dont know if indeed there is a God,and if we have some of His/Hers/Its teaching given to charismatic,faithfull individuals but i have to admit that this phrase is soooo clever! Its an "umbrella" for whatever happens,utilized also in other religions even in Shamanism! If the things goes our way,it was God helping,god's Intervention.If not, "He moves in Mysterious Ways" and how can we ask comprehending it with our limited intellect (compared to a God that is).

Those could be God Spoken words to people,it could also be Intelligent Spoken words FROM people....

We cant really tell...

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Offlineblowback
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Re: God is not listening; Prayer Doesn't Improve Outcome for Heart Patients, Study Finds [Re: Psiloman]
    #4415458 - 07/17/05 03:54 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

When I was a kid my sister came to visit for Christmas. The night before she was due to leave, I prayed that God would let her stay one more day. The next day her flight was canceled due to severe weather. Possibly a coincidence, but it certainly left an impression on me as a small child.


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"Daddy, what's the difference between ignorance and apathy?"

"Son, I don't know, and I don't care"

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: God is not listening; Prayer Doesn't Improve Outcome for Heart Patients, Study Finds [Re: Psiloman]
    #4415467 - 07/17/05 03:56 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

yea, but christian god values faith, in fact, those who believe without proof are those who are let into the kingdom of heaven.
Those that do no trust him, are those that ask for proof.

Of course, if you trust him, then it looks like that to you, if you don't trust him, then it looks like a bulletproof mechanism, which a part of not trusting anyway.

while doubt has a high value in modern society, it is quite the oposite when it comes to biblical values


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Edited by OldWoodSpecter (07/17/05 03:58 PM)

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: God is not listening; Prayer Doesn't Improve Outcome for Heart Patients, Study Finds [Re: blowback]
    #4415486 - 07/17/05 03:59 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

blowback said:
When I was a kid my sister came to visit for Christmas. The night before she was due to leave, I prayed that God would let her stay one more day. The next day her flight was canceled due to severe weather. Possibly a coincidence, but it certainly left an impression on me as a small child.




we all have stories like that, some are almost impossible coincidences, but that does not prove that prayer works


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: God is not listening; Prayer Doesn't Improve Outcome for Heart Patients, Study Finds [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4415577 - 07/17/05 04:15 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Whoa, the gift of free will to us humans, restricts god to prove himself. His main way is his proof to single individuals.
So, it's all about our discoveries and how we will interpret them. That leaves our free will open...really open...until the day, he will really prove himself (will be proved?).
Then free will-time is over.


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: God is not listening; Prayer Doesn't Improve Outcome for Heart Patients, Study Finds [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4416434 - 07/17/05 08:10 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Tempting is not asking honestly

Mothers who ask honestly for their children to return safely from war lose as many as those who don't. :shrug:


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleFucknuckle
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Re: God is not listening; Prayer Doesn't Improve Outcome for Heart Patients, Study Finds [Re: redtailedhawk]
    #4416462 - 07/17/05 08:20 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Faith healing is the better term here. Prayer for the sick is effective but it is realitive to the faith of the sick person.

I have been witness to a few " Miracles " But I can tell you that it was the faith of the sick and not the faith of the person doing the prayer that made the difference. Oh yes prayer done by a righteous person is very effective. But I can tell you it is the sick person that can really tap into the healing of God.

So a study like this and it's results does not suprize me.

Prayer does work when combined with the feverant faith of the sick

Good example is in the bible when the woman with the bleeding crotch only thought if she could just touch the robes of Jesus she would be healed. And she was :heart:


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: God is not listening; Prayer Doesn't Improve Outcome for Heart Patients, Study Finds [Re: Diploid]
    #4416519 - 07/17/05 08:35 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Tempting is not asking honestly

Mothers who ask honestly for their children to return safely from war lose as many as those who don't. :shrug:




how do you know that?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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OfflineSmallworlds
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Re: God is not listening; Prayer Doesn't Improve Outcome for Heart Patients, Study Finds [Re: Diploid]
    #4416583 - 07/17/05 08:55 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Tempting is not asking honestly

Mothers who ask honestly for their children to return safely from war lose as many as those who don't. :shrug:




A better prayer might be to help your son escape the military :thumbup:


--------------------
Through the excercise of patience, one may learn humility..

Smoke plenty of green, and eat fungus!!!!
:peace::heart::slomo::gd_icon::gd_icon::gd_icon::slomo:


Trip Report

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OfflineTheCow
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Re: God is not listening; Prayer Doesn't Improve Outcome for Heart Patients, Study Finds [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4416710 - 07/17/05 09:30 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Of course, if you trust him, then it looks like that to you, if you don't trust him, then it looks like a bulletproof mechanism, which a part of not trusting anyway.



If God came down to me, and told me, hey man I fucking exist. I would seriously believe in him. But what I am not going to do, is believe YOU, I am not going to trust some fucking book or some priest, or evangelical zealot who knows nothing more then me. I recently re-read the bible, as I like to point out holes in Christianity, and the book just struck me as so absurdly silly. I had to keep reminding myself, that not only have thousands of people died over this book, but millions upon millions of people take this piece of trash as the word of our creator. If God said let there be light, but had part of the earth created first, then explain this. Visible light is only one small wavelength group in the elctro-magnetic spectrum, for anything else to be created, God must have created EM waves before he said let there be light. So what is the bible saying, that he created EM waves in all wavelengths, except for the visible spectrum? But then how did waves with greater or shorter wavelengths exist at that time, they must have even for a brief moment crossed into the visible spectrum to get to other lengths.

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OfflineTheCow
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Re: God is not listening; Prayer Doesn't Improve Outcome for Heart Patients, Study Finds [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4416713 - 07/17/05 09:31 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Quote:

Diploid said:
Tempting is not asking honestly

Mothers who ask honestly for their children to return safely from war lose as many as those who don't. :shrug:




how do you know that? 



Require proof do you? Maybe God told him.

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OfflineSmallworlds
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Re: God is not listening; Prayer Doesn't Improve Outcome for Heart Patients, Study Finds [Re: TheCow]
    #4416993 - 07/17/05 10:49 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

God is playing a practical joke on all of you, he's a merry prankster, like me.


--------------------
Through the excercise of patience, one may learn humility..

Smoke plenty of green, and eat fungus!!!!
:peace::heart::slomo::gd_icon::gd_icon::gd_icon::slomo:


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OfflineAnnoA
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New study - No benefit of prayer found after surgery [Re: Smallworlds]
    #5853969 - 07/13/06 08:49 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2006/03/31/no_benefit_of_prayer_found_after_surgery/

Quote:

No benefit of prayer found after surgery

By Rob Stein, Associated Press | March 31, 2006

WASHINGTON -- Praying for other people to recover from an illness is ineffective, according to the largest, best-designed study to try to examine the power of prayer to heal strangers at a distance.

The study of more than 1,800 heart bypass surgery patients found that those who had other people praying for them had as many complications as those who did not. In fact, one group of patients who knew they were the subject of prayers fared worse.

The long-awaited results, the latest in a series of studies that have failed to find any benefit from ''distant" or ''intercessory" prayer, came as a blow to the hopes of some that scientific research would validate the popular notion that people can influence the health of people even if they don't know someone is praying for them.

The researchers cautioned that the study was not designed to test the existence of God or the benefit of other types of prayer, such as praying for oneself or at bedsides of friends or relatives. They also did not rule out that other types of distant prayer may be effective for other types of patients.

''No one single study is ever going to provide an answer," said Jeffery Dusek of Harvard Medical School, who helped lead the study being published in the April 4 issue of the American Heart Journal.

While many studies have suggested that praying for oneself may reduce stress, research into praying for others who may not even know they are the subject of prayers has been much more controversial. Several studies that claimed to show a benefit have been criticized as deeply flawed. And several of the most recent findings have found no benefit.

The new $2.4 million study, funded primarily by the John Templeton Foundation, was designed to overcome some of those shortcomings. Dusek and his colleagues divided 1,802 bypass patients at six hospitals into three groups. Two groups were uncertain whether they would be the subject of prayers. The third was told they would be prayed for.

The researchers recruited two Catholic groups and one Protestant group to pray ''for a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications" for 14 days for each patient, beginning the night before the surgery, using the patient's first name and the first initial of the last name.

Over the next month, patients in the two groups that were uncertain whether they were the subject of prayers fared virtually the same, with about 52 percent experiencing complications regardless of whether they were the subject of prayers.

Surprisingly, however, 59 percent of the patients who knew they were the targets of prayer experienced complications.

Because the most common complication was an irregular heartbeat, the researchers speculated that knowing they were chosen to receive prayers may have put them under increased stress.

''Did the patients think, 'I am so sick they had to call in the prayer team?' " said Charles Bethea of the Integris Heart Hospital at Baptist Medical Center in Oklahoma City, who helped conduct the study.



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OfflineSeussA
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Re: New study - No benefit of prayer found after surgery [Re: Anno]
    #5854073 - 07/13/06 09:33 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

To be fair, the title given "No benefit of prayer found after surgery" is not only inaccurate, but is also very misleading. It should say, "No benefit of third party prayer found after surgery". The study did not rule out the benefit of prayer after surgery, only the benefit of others praying for somebody else after surgery. To me, there is a huge difference between the two.


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Re: God is not listening; Prayer Doesn't Improve Outcome for Heart Patients, Study Finds [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5854205 - 07/13/06 10:44 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
"thy shall not tempt god"

perhapse god does not answer prayers that are practiced to test existence of god.

I know I wouldn't




So what you're saying is that God would let a sick person die if a skeptic were praying for their recovery, with the ulterior motive of observing some evidence supporting the efficacy of prayer? This onmiscient sky-god of yours is one cold piece of work, Cuzz.

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OfflinePed
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Re: God is not listening; Prayer Doesn't Improve Outcome for Heart Patients, Study Finds [Re: redtailedhawk]
    #5857617 - 07/14/06 10:56 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I gotta say I'm really getting sick of these "study shows prayer doesn't work", or "study shows prayer works" threads.

From the Buddhist point of view prayer is understood in paralell with an understanding of emptiness. The long and the short of emptiness is that the nature of our experience is subjective, and that thought and space are not seperable continuums. It's from this understanding that prayer is made with the intent of improving our overall condition. Whether it be aimed at a specific case, or spoken generally, prayers are uttered with the knowledge that the content of one's mind is the content of one's reality.

This means that the results of prayer are measured against the intention behind the prayer. If the intention behind prayer is not synchroized with the object, then prayer cannot bring about any measurable result, because prayer works as part of dependent relationship between subject and object. If the intention behind prayer is to prove something, or to prove somebody else wrong, then it does not matter what the object of prayer was, be it a heart patient or world peace, because the intention is not aligned with the object. Without this alignment the act of prayer is a meaningless waste of energy.

This is the real meaning behind the phrase "thou shalt not tempt God." It's not as though God is "up there" comparing your intentions to some sort of carefully articulated standard. This is so simple-minded. The reason we "shall not tempt God" is because we simply can't tempt God. Testing, tempting, these things are borne from a spirit of doubt, hesitation, and a lack of clarity. The nature of God is ineffable knowledge and wisdom, and perfect clarity. We cannot tempt or test God any more than we can cut a hole in the sky.

Of course it's true that the actual act of folding ones hands and softly muttering wishes has no intrinsic power. We don't need a study to prove this; this is obvious. The real measure of prayer's efficacy is the synchronization between the subject and object, the intention and condition. And this, of course, cannot be measured at all, because merely approaching the phenomenon interrupts this balance. Yet again, the whole of the scientific community embarasses itself, trying prove or disprove something it has made no sincere attempt to understand.



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Edited by Ped (07/14/06 11:03 AM)

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Re: God is not listening; Prayer Doesn't Improve Outcome for Heart Patients, Study Finds [Re: TheCow]
    #5857662 - 07/14/06 11:17 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

god doesn't believe in electromagnetic waves

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Re: God is not listening; Prayer Doesn't Improve Outcome for Heart Patients, Study Finds [Re: Ped]
    #5858391 - 07/14/06 03:25 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:

Of course it's true that the actual act of folding ones hands and softly muttering wishes has no intrinsic power. We don't need a study to prove this; this is obvious. The real measure of prayer's efficacy is the synchronization between the subject and object, the intention and condition. And this, of course, cannot be measured at all, because merely approaching the phenomenon interrupts this balance. Yet again, the whole of the scientific community embarasses itself, trying prove or disprove something it has made no sincere attempt to understand.






Alright, if we can't construct an experiment to test prayer's effectiveness because observation throws off the "synchronization between ... the intent and condition", we should still be able to observe past cases in which the "subject" was making an heart-felt attempt to improve the condition of the "object", because these were legitimate prayers and not artifacts of Western materialism, right?

Back in the Victorian era, millions of peopl world-wide intoned the mantra "God Save the Queen." Tens of millions of people in communist China wished in public unison (not exactly prayer, but close) that Mao Zedon would life "for ten thousand years." In ancient Egypt, nearly everyone prayed that the gods would liet the Pharoah live forever. These collectivized psychic energies failed to manifest in any extended lifespan for their beloved monarchs, and this failure constituts data.

Also, I must admit that I'm confused by your qualm that science attempts to study things which it has made no attempt to understand. The scientific method relies on experimental evidence to reach understanding, and these studies that you find so misguided ARE it's attempts to understand the topic.

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OfflinePed
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Re: God is not listening; Prayer Doesn't Improve Outcome for Heart Patients, Study Finds [Re: Life_of_a_Cell]
    #5861425 - 07/15/06 10:47 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

>> Back in the Victorian era, millions of peopl world-wide intoned the mantra "God Save the Queen." Tens of millions of people in communist China wished in public unison (not exactly prayer, but close) that Mao Zedon would life "for ten thousand years." In ancient Egypt, nearly everyone prayed that the gods would liet the Pharoah live forever. These collectivized psychic energies failed to manifest in any extended lifespan for their beloved monarchs, and this failure constituts data.

I'm not sure if these are valid examples, because it is impossible to know the minds of those repeating these wishes. It's not terribly likely that the wording of these prayers was meant so literally, and even less likely that they were heartfelt or sincere. Certainly it's true that when a prayer becomes a cultural custom, it loses it's meaning and becomes a mere utterance. I know that in my grade-school years the words "God Save the Queen" felt like little more than a nice sentiment. I didn't know who the Queen was, or why she needed saving. Neither was I clear on this mysterious God fellow.

There is nothing in these examples which indicates a definite synch between intent and condition. In fact, I'd say that any clear indication of this synch is unapproachable. This makes the power of prayer neither provable nor disprovable. And that's OK. Why can't we leave it at that?

In fact, if a study were widely published proving that a certain technique of prayer was effective, this would be harmful. Everybody everywhere would begin employing this technique, carrying in their minds a tremendous obstructive weight of expectation. Essentially, by attempting to nail it down, we destroy it. This is what science has managed to do with the whole universe. In nailing it down, it becomes dead. The scientific method has so far choked the very life out of everything it has successfully understood. It has drained all phenomenon of their wonder and magic, and has forced the world to fit with it's own absurdly unrealistic and entirely unproven paradigm: that the universe is a mindless machine clunking around through time. The effect of this has seized the public mind on a world-wide scale.


>> I must admit that I'm confused by your qualm that science attempts to study things which it has made no attempt to understand. The scientific method relies on experimental evidence to reach understanding, and these studies that you find so misguided ARE it's attempts to understand the topic.

Far too often the scientific method is contaminated by presuppositions and mistaken approaches taken from the point of view of assumption. Science as a whole has made a great many assumptions about the way things are, and has operated out of these assumptions for hundreds of years. The scientific method has no validity when carried out under conditions which are absolutely contrary to the ideals so arrogantly touted by that same method.

Science has helped us accomplish amazing things, and has shown us things we could not have dreamed of, however it's practise has not improved our condition as human beings. This is because it has ignored, up until only very recently, the relationship between subject and object, and how the predispositions of the subject affect how the object exists, is perceived, and understood. For this reason I have very limited faith in science, and tend to balk at the overwhelming self-importance of it's community of practitioners.

From a technological standpoint, science has had unparalleled success. From a spiritual standpoint, however, science is about five thousand years behind every system of thought ever embraced by a civilization. Failure to recognize this, in my opinion, is telling of the magnificent arrogance which has gripped the scientific community since it's earliest practice.


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Re: God is not listening; Prayer Doesn't Improve Outcome for Heart Patients, Study Finds [Re: redtailedhawk]
    #5864939 - 07/16/06 10:24 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Put biologically identical twins in the same hopsital room and afflict them with the same serious illness. Seperate them from eachother in sight and sound and have one of them pray to God asking for health, have the other curse God for inflicting him with the illness but have the same drive for health as the other twin.

I'm not a gambling man, but I'd put my life savings on there being no difference in outcomes between the prayer and the curser in repeated studies.


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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: God is not listening; Prayer Doesn't Improve Outcome for Heart Patients, Study Finds [Re: TODAY]
    #5865477 - 07/16/06 12:52 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

TODAY said:
Put biologically identical twins in the same hopsital room and afflict them with the same serious illness. Seperate them from eachother in sight and sound and have one of them pray to God asking for health, have the other curse God for inflicting him with the illness but have the same drive for health as the other twin.

I'm not a gambling man, but I'd put my life savings on there being no difference in outcomes between the prayer and the curser in repeated studies.




The thing about that is, I don't know how geniune the second is in saving his own life with the amount negativity that he's giving himself,


IMO I won't totatlly discredit prayer, or totally stick up for it, you have to think seriously, if you wanted a geuine prayer answered, you have to assume that their is a god to answer that prayer, and in the context of how your asking that wish are you seriously going to think that this god ur assuming is going to see you as being geniune with him, if your just putting him to the test, I doubt he would answer that prayer, as ur putting him/her under a case study of social science, come on now the patient has to be unaware of being observed, you can't put a double glass mirror on god if one exists, any attempt would be a feeble insult, even what oldwoodspector said is true, even under practical logic,

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