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OfflineLife_of_a_Cell
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Registered: 05/29/04
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Re: God is not listening; Prayer Doesn't Improve Outcome for Heart Patients, Study Finds [Re: Ped]
    #5858391 - 07/14/06 03:25 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:

Of course it's true that the actual act of folding ones hands and softly muttering wishes has no intrinsic power. We don't need a study to prove this; this is obvious. The real measure of prayer's efficacy is the synchronization between the subject and object, the intention and condition. And this, of course, cannot be measured at all, because merely approaching the phenomenon interrupts this balance. Yet again, the whole of the scientific community embarasses itself, trying prove or disprove something it has made no sincere attempt to understand.






Alright, if we can't construct an experiment to test prayer's effectiveness because observation throws off the "synchronization between ... the intent and condition", we should still be able to observe past cases in which the "subject" was making an heart-felt attempt to improve the condition of the "object", because these were legitimate prayers and not artifacts of Western materialism, right?

Back in the Victorian era, millions of peopl world-wide intoned the mantra "God Save the Queen." Tens of millions of people in communist China wished in public unison (not exactly prayer, but close) that Mao Zedon would life "for ten thousand years." In ancient Egypt, nearly everyone prayed that the gods would liet the Pharoah live forever. These collectivized psychic energies failed to manifest in any extended lifespan for their beloved monarchs, and this failure constituts data.

Also, I must admit that I'm confused by your qualm that science attempts to study things which it has made no attempt to understand. The scientific method relies on experimental evidence to reach understanding, and these studies that you find so misguided ARE it's attempts to understand the topic.

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OfflinePed
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Re: God is not listening; Prayer Doesn't Improve Outcome for Heart Patients, Study Finds [Re: Life_of_a_Cell]
    #5861425 - 07/15/06 10:47 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

>> Back in the Victorian era, millions of peopl world-wide intoned the mantra "God Save the Queen." Tens of millions of people in communist China wished in public unison (not exactly prayer, but close) that Mao Zedon would life "for ten thousand years." In ancient Egypt, nearly everyone prayed that the gods would liet the Pharoah live forever. These collectivized psychic energies failed to manifest in any extended lifespan for their beloved monarchs, and this failure constituts data.

I'm not sure if these are valid examples, because it is impossible to know the minds of those repeating these wishes. It's not terribly likely that the wording of these prayers was meant so literally, and even less likely that they were heartfelt or sincere. Certainly it's true that when a prayer becomes a cultural custom, it loses it's meaning and becomes a mere utterance. I know that in my grade-school years the words "God Save the Queen" felt like little more than a nice sentiment. I didn't know who the Queen was, or why she needed saving. Neither was I clear on this mysterious God fellow.

There is nothing in these examples which indicates a definite synch between intent and condition. In fact, I'd say that any clear indication of this synch is unapproachable. This makes the power of prayer neither provable nor disprovable. And that's OK. Why can't we leave it at that?

In fact, if a study were widely published proving that a certain technique of prayer was effective, this would be harmful. Everybody everywhere would begin employing this technique, carrying in their minds a tremendous obstructive weight of expectation. Essentially, by attempting to nail it down, we destroy it. This is what science has managed to do with the whole universe. In nailing it down, it becomes dead. The scientific method has so far choked the very life out of everything it has successfully understood. It has drained all phenomenon of their wonder and magic, and has forced the world to fit with it's own absurdly unrealistic and entirely unproven paradigm: that the universe is a mindless machine clunking around through time. The effect of this has seized the public mind on a world-wide scale.


>> I must admit that I'm confused by your qualm that science attempts to study things which it has made no attempt to understand. The scientific method relies on experimental evidence to reach understanding, and these studies that you find so misguided ARE it's attempts to understand the topic.

Far too often the scientific method is contaminated by presuppositions and mistaken approaches taken from the point of view of assumption. Science as a whole has made a great many assumptions about the way things are, and has operated out of these assumptions for hundreds of years. The scientific method has no validity when carried out under conditions which are absolutely contrary to the ideals so arrogantly touted by that same method.

Science has helped us accomplish amazing things, and has shown us things we could not have dreamed of, however it's practise has not improved our condition as human beings. This is because it has ignored, up until only very recently, the relationship between subject and object, and how the predispositions of the subject affect how the object exists, is perceived, and understood. For this reason I have very limited faith in science, and tend to balk at the overwhelming self-importance of it's community of practitioners.

From a technological standpoint, science has had unparalleled success. From a spiritual standpoint, however, science is about five thousand years behind every system of thought ever embraced by a civilization. Failure to recognize this, in my opinion, is telling of the magnificent arrogance which has gripped the scientific community since it's earliest practice.


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InvisibleTODAY
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Registered: 09/25/03
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Re: God is not listening; Prayer Doesn't Improve Outcome for Heart Patients, Study Finds [Re: redtailedhawk]
    #5864939 - 07/16/06 10:24 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Put biologically identical twins in the same hopsital room and afflict them with the same serious illness. Seperate them from eachother in sight and sound and have one of them pray to God asking for health, have the other curse God for inflicting him with the illness but have the same drive for health as the other twin.

I'm not a gambling man, but I'd put my life savings on there being no difference in outcomes between the prayer and the curser in repeated studies.


--------------------

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To engage in boisterous, drunken merrymaking.

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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: God is not listening; Prayer Doesn't Improve Outcome for Heart Patients, Study Finds [Re: TODAY]
    #5865477 - 07/16/06 12:52 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

TODAY said:
Put biologically identical twins in the same hopsital room and afflict them with the same serious illness. Seperate them from eachother in sight and sound and have one of them pray to God asking for health, have the other curse God for inflicting him with the illness but have the same drive for health as the other twin.

I'm not a gambling man, but I'd put my life savings on there being no difference in outcomes between the prayer and the curser in repeated studies.




The thing about that is, I don't know how geniune the second is in saving his own life with the amount negativity that he's giving himself,


IMO I won't totatlly discredit prayer, or totally stick up for it, you have to think seriously, if you wanted a geuine prayer answered, you have to assume that their is a god to answer that prayer, and in the context of how your asking that wish are you seriously going to think that this god ur assuming is going to see you as being geniune with him, if your just putting him to the test, I doubt he would answer that prayer, as ur putting him/her under a case study of social science, come on now the patient has to be unaware of being observed, you can't put a double glass mirror on god if one exists, any attempt would be a feeble insult, even what oldwoodspector said is true, even under practical logic,

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