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Temptress
Butterfly


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Prayer Study Fails Miserably
#5488926 - 04/07/06 03:30 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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web page
CHICAGO (Reuters) - A study of more than 1,800 patients who underwent heart bypass surgery has failed to show that prayers specially organized for their recovery had any impact, researchers said Thursday.
In fact, the study found some of the patients who knew they were being prayed for did worse than others who were only told they might be prayed for -- though those who did the study said they could not explain why.
duh! it failed because there is no deity listening to pathetic mumblings and petitions - in fact he got pissed off so it worked in reverse...
-------------------- i have less ego than you do!
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Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Temptress]
#5488928 - 04/07/06 03:39 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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You sorta contradicted yourself
--------------------
    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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koppie
astral projectile


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Posts: 2,653
Loc: cloud hidden
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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Temptress]
#5489028 - 04/07/06 05:59 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Just because a study doesn't give the expected result, does not mean that the study is a failure. In fact almost all scientific breakthroughs are the result of experiment not confirming theory, so the theory had to be altered. This study gave a clear and fairly unambiguous negative result, thereby falsifying the theory of objective reality of the efficacy of third party prayer. That sounds like a resounding success to me, even if the result is unpalatable to the party commissioning the study.
What many fundamentalists in both the religious and scientific camps fail to realize is that the nature of religion is more closely related to art than to science.
In related news, Twelve year study finds: Not all roses are red, and only some violets are blue.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs


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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Temptress]
#5489981 - 04/07/06 12:50 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yeah because you can pray from the tip of your lips of from the bottom of your soul, dude. Big difference. When someone "makes" you pray, you usually din't get the desired results.
--------------------
   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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barfightlard
tales of theinexpressible



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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: MushroomTrip]
#5490487 - 04/07/06 03:59 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said: Yeah because you can pray from the tip of your lips of from the bottom of your soul, dude. Big difference. When someone "makes" you pray, you usually din't get the desired results.
I doubt they "made" them pray. If it was a proper study they would have just observed the ones who prayed and didn't pray. And if "god" doesn't help out those who ask for his help because he knows those people are being observed by some scientists, then he's a dick anyways.
--------------------
"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs


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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: barfightlard]
#5490605 - 04/07/06 04:52 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I was talking about their mind set. I strongly believe that you pray different when you know your prayer is studied, you worry more about those who observe you then on the actual prayer. So, you can't really concentrate on the prayer.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Diploid
Cuban


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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: MushroomTrip]
#5491078 - 04/07/06 09:10 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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When someone "makes" you pray, you usually din't get the desired results.
Wow, I didn't even know God kept track of that.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Temptress
Butterfly


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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: MushroomTrip]
#5491118 - 04/07/06 09:25 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yeah because you can pray from the tip of your lips of from the bottom of your soul, dude. Big difference.
what is the big diference? Apparently none. as to being 'made to pray' the participants wanted to to show the wrold the power of prayer - and as with all mysticism - failed to show any affect on physical reyality.
-------------------- i have less ego than you do!
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Fospher
Crime FightingMaster Criminal


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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Temptress]
#5491616 - 04/08/06 12:34 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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In 1993, there was study done in Washington, DC, hypothesized that if a large group of people were to meditate on reducing the crime rate by 25% - it would happen.
The Chief of Police said the only thing that would reduce crime rate in the "Murder Capital of the World" by 25% was 6 inches of snow - in June. The study took place with over 1000 people from over 30 nations. The DCPD eventually became the organizer of the event because in that course of the year, crime decreased by 25%.
Source: John Hagelin, PhD; from the movie "What the Bleep Do We Know?"
Now, your case doesn't really say anything, because nothing happened, but mine does. And when nothing happens, you cant really conclude at anything. It's like saying that you called God out to give you a million dollars, but since he didn't do it, you're concluding that he doesn't exist. But if that money really did appear out of thin air, well ... you just might have yourself an argument.
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Ekstaza
stranger than most


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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Fospher]
#5492106 - 04/08/06 07:27 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Coincidence
-------------------- YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs


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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Diploid]
#5492189 - 04/08/06 08:45 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: When someone "makes" you pray, you usually din't get the desired results.
Wow, I didn't even know God kept track of that.
Actually I was referring to the concentration. Can you honestly say that you have the same concentration when you do something from you own will and on you own like when you know you're being motorized?
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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kotik
fuckingsuperhero


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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: MushroomTrip]
#5492550 - 04/08/06 11:30 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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im not sure whats more ridiculous, thinking that a room full of strangers prying for you, (somehow has more to do with your recovery than the way you have been taking care of your body, the doctor and how well your body deals with the shock.) or the fact that they actually did a 9 year experiment on something like this.
-------------------- No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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Temptress
Butterfly


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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: kotik]
#5492559 - 04/08/06 11:32 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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nine years? people have been praying to and worshipping a dead rabbi for mellenium.
-------------------- i have less ego than you do!
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kotik
fuckingsuperhero


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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Temptress]
#5492644 - 04/08/06 11:53 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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equally pointless, other than each individuals own mental /spiritual health
-------------------- No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Temptress]
#5493361 - 04/08/06 03:10 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Right. Mysticism does not "show any effect on physical reality." You must have confused the word 'mysticism' with the word 'magic[k].'
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder


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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Temptress]
#5493382 - 04/08/06 03:14 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Temptress said: nine years? people have been praying to and worshipping a dead rabbi for mellenium.
Right again. People should be transforming themselves INTO the Rabbi [Teacher] instead of praying to Him or worshiping Him. Good point!
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Fospher
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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Ekstaza]
#5493887 - 04/08/06 05:40 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ekstaza said: Coincidence
PROVE IT.
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Diploid
Cuban


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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Fospher]
#5495652 - 04/09/06 05:58 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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In 1993, there was study done in Washington, DC, hypothesized that if a large group of people were to meditate on reducing the crime rate by 25% - it would happen.
John Hagelin of the Maharishi University described how in 1993, violent crime in Washington D.C. was reduced over a two month period by 4000 people using Transcendental Meditation.
His results had many problems that rendered them invalid.
1. Hagelin?s report stated violent crime had been reduced by 18%, but he failed to state what it was reduced compared to. Just stating that something is %18 less is a meaningless statement. Less than last year? Less than in 1812? Less than in Zimbabwe?
2. How did he know what the crime rate would have been without the TM? Scientific tests require something called a control group. If you're testing a drug, you need some rats that get the drug, and some that don't. Both groups eat the same food, drink the same water, live in the same place. Only in this way can you be sure that any changes in the test group that don't show up in the control group are caused by the drug and not by something in the water.
Crime rates vary all the time. Without a scientific control in his experiment, his results could be real, or could be a result of normal statistical drift; without a control group, there's no way to tell and so his results are meaningless.
3. It was discovered after the fact that the members of his "independent scientific review board" were not independent. All science is subject to intense critical scrutiny by the peers of the scientist doing the work. In this way, any mistakes or weaknesses in the results can be ruthlessly attacked. Only scientific results that can stand this scrutiny are accepted as valid.
It turns out that the board was not 'independent' after all; all the members were proponents of the Maharishi Principle and so were biased in their assessment. Had the (not) independent scientific review board been doing their job, they would have pointed out the bad science I'm pointing out now.
4. The results of the experiment have never been independently replicated.
5. And finally, after he published his work, attempts to independently verify his statistics found that, despite his claims of TM's success, the murder rate ROSE during the period in question. Hagelin MADE UP his data.
John Hagelin was deservedly awarded the 1994 Ig Nobel Prize (an insult) for this outstanding Piece of Work.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
Edited by Diploid (04/09/06 01:41 PM)
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Ekstaza
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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Fospher]
#5495797 - 04/09/06 07:49 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Fospher said:
Quote:
Ekstaza said: Coincidence
PROVE IT.
I'm not the one with something to prove.
YOU PROVE IT!
-------------------- YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.
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Fospher
Crime FightingMaster Criminal


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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Ekstaza]
#5497372 - 04/09/06 06:22 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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You can't prove of the existence of the metaphysical. You can only point cause and effect, and what little connection the two have, you can make an inference that the two are interrelated by something that can not be explained through physical matter.
Now, say if I started floating in mid-air, you could say that it was the atmospheric pressure that was extremely dense in that area that day, and the magnetic pull of the earth's core making it's first attempts to reverse the polarity. But is it probable that was the cause? I can't prove to you that me floating is an effect of me superimposing my will on reality, because it's not something that can be proven. It's something that can be experienced, or documented.
Now saying it's a coincedence is a black and white issue. How do you know that to be true? What grounds do you have to make that statement? If you choose to take the skeptic approach, then have foundations for your reasons of the denial of the case in point.
What are they?
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Fospher
Crime FightingMaster Criminal


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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Diploid]
#5497422 - 04/09/06 06:37 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
1. Hagelin?s report stated violent crime had been reduced by 18%, but he failed to state what it was reduced compared to.
The previous year, Hagelin mentions so in the film.
Quote:
2. How did he know what the crime rate would have been without the TM?
He did not, but such a large deviation is highly improbable. If you can predict the average crime rate of a city based on decades of statistics, a 25% deviation is an obvious effect of an outside influence. Since no other influences have been found, it is logical to assume that the one variable that was set to decrease the outcome is it, is it not?
Quote:
3. It was discovered after the fact that the members of his "independent scientific review board" were not independent.
May I ask where you got the information of the supposed bias of independent scientific review?
Quote:
4. The results of the experiment have never been independently replicated.
You see, if it was a 5% decrease, this would have been a very valid point. But a QUARTER decrease in the statistics is such a heavy result, that with no other influence on the percentage found, it would be logical to assume the TM for the cause.
Quote:
5. And finally, after he published his work, attempts to independently verify his statistics found that, despite his claims of TM's success, the murder rate ROSE during the period in question. Hagelin MADE UP his data.
I've never heard of these contradictions and it's strange that the film would portray misinformation. Source?
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Ekstaza
stranger than most


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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Fospher]
#5501225 - 04/10/06 08:18 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I place no value in metaphysical mumbo jumbo. Give me some testable data to support your claim or I will dismiss it.
-------------------- YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.
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Fospher
Crime FightingMaster Criminal


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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Ekstaza]
#5501553 - 04/10/06 09:32 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Dont you understand?
I said it is impossible. You can't prove it, unless you experience it for yourself. And even then, the proof is only for your eyes and no one else. If you've seen the metaphysical, how can you prove your vision? Up to this day we do not have the capability to record and rewind our eyesight.
How do you know the world it is as you know it? Who gave you the authority to say that?
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Temptress
Butterfly


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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Fospher]
#5501769 - 04/10/06 10:39 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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*yawn*
it was the metaphysiscians that set out to prove that prayer (and/or meditation) could affect external reality. they failed as all do.
simple.
-------------------- i have less ego than you do!
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funguyism
Stranger
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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Temptress]
#5502715 - 04/11/06 08:55 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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if there was a god, why would he favor some over others. the bible says that prayer works, but by whos definition does it work? a girl wants a pimple gone by prom and she prays to god to help her, a starving child dying from aids in africa prays for some food, still no food yet the pimple on the girl is gone, was what she experienced a miracle, and if it was, for what reasons did god ignore the sincere prayer? facts speak louder than faith. why? because facts make sense. once we get rid of what does not make sense, things start to make sense.
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Temptress
Butterfly


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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: funguyism]
#5503302 - 04/11/06 12:18 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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...and i asked u not to share my prom night and pimple story - sheesh!
-------------------- i have less ego than you do!
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Temptress
Butterfly


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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Temptress]
#5503433 - 04/11/06 12:50 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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just noticed that this thread was moved because "you cannot question anothers beliefs". that is amazingly silly for two reasons:
1. a current news story relevant to mysticism was posted. "please temptress proteckt us from facts!" 2.why is it OK to question an atheists beliefs by posting non-facts? that is a double standard.
-------------------- i have less ego than you do!
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Silversoul
Rhizome


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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Temptress]
#5503487 - 04/11/06 01:08 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Temptress said:

--------------------
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Fospher
Crime FightingMaster Criminal


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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Temptress]
#5505091 - 04/11/06 07:47 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Is your method of persuasion ignoring everything the other person says and keep babbling unsupported rants?
Look, as I said before, just because something was set out to prove something non-existent, and it didnt happen, doesn't mean it doesn't exist, as I explained with an analogy earlier.
What's the purpose of your posts? Do you think you can actually convince someone to lose their belief in the paranormal by your sheer ignorance?
Have fun devoting your life to the dull grind of materialism and becoming worm food afterwards - other believers and myself will instead take full advantage of what life has to offer.
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Temptress
Butterfly


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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Fospher]
#5505171 - 04/11/06 07:58 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Summation: a prayer group does a study to set out to prove prayer. the results are negative and are reported by temptress. fospher cannot handle it so attacks the poster and makes comments on her life that have zero bearing. a very immature response. 
"Please, we don't want no stinking facts."
-------------------- i have less ego than you do!
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Fospher
Crime FightingMaster Criminal


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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Temptress]
#5505745 - 04/11/06 09:30 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Temptress said: fospher cannot handle it so attacks the poster and makes comments on her life that have zero bearing. a very immature response.
Look - and you will find hypocricy in your own words. Do you not read and just post the same thing in different wording?
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Fospher
Crime FightingMaster Criminal


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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Temptress]
#5506403 - 04/12/06 01:25 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Temptress said: "Please, we don't want no stinking facts."
Who said this? Your imaginary adversary who represents no one on this forum?
Hahaha! You can't lay a single fact that I haven't already given out a retort to.
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fireworks_god
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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Fospher]
#5506631 - 04/12/06 05:37 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Fospher said: Hahaha! You can't lay a single fact that I haven't already given out a retort to.
Doesn't mean your retort has any value, or that it reflects reality.
"Oooh, I can reply to anything you say! Better look out! 
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Fospher
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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: fireworks_god]
#5507745 - 04/12/06 11:31 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Then, by all means, feel free to object. Your statement, however, is meaningless.
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Shroomerious
OO


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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Fospher]
#5508297 - 04/12/06 02:07 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Hmm...I don't see this as a failed experiment. First of all there can be no failed experiment when you get a negative result. It is a result nevertheless. It is an answer. If you set that aside I don't think the study had finished nor do I think that it was proven that prayer does not help...on the contrary...
When people are told that they *may* be prayed for then they most probably put that in a small corner of their subconscious mind and the good thing about it is that they don't think whether the prayer will work. They don't doubt the prayer blocking it from working as most of the people that were told that they are definately prayed for do. They just think ok, I am on my own here but hmmm imagine if there are some people praying for me I'll be ok!! What I am trying to say is that it is easier for them to subconsciously accept the fact that the prayer will work and hence allowing it to possibly work.
Here I should say that I do not correlate prayers with any kind of religion. Prayers, at the end of the day, for me, are just positive thoughts. Not that I don't give a chance that a religion, single or many could be related but really I think that this is a narrow minded opinion although I don't dismiss it, hell I could be wrong, all people could! I just base my statistics on religion(as in what has more possibilities to be true-er) to my experiences in life so far. Now to the prayers.
The people that are told that some people pray for them put big emphasis and hope on that fact and in the process of doubting it they cause more bad because they may think that the other choice of recovering by themselves is not a very good one. Whereas the other people that were given simply the possibility take it more lightly, put it in their subconscious mind and think positively a lot easier.
All these are to say that you can not dismiss a whole study because of a few yet unexplained results. Don't say they work, don't say they don't, elaborate on the facts you got, that's all you can do....That's what I think.
--------------------
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koppie
astral projectile


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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: Shroomerious]
#5516787 - 04/14/06 05:54 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Of course the real reason why the study failed is because it didn't use the right kind of prayer:
from: http://www.interfax-religion.com/print.php?act=news&id=1173 ...thus proving that you can get any result you want when you mix metaphysics and physics. Either that or interfax has today even less credibility than it did in the Soviet days.
Quote:
The sign of the cross and Orthodox prayer are capable of killing microbes and change the optical properties of water - a study
Moscow, March 17, Interfax - Scientists have proved experimentally the miracle-working properties of the sign of the cross and prayer.
?We have ascertained that the old custom to make a sign of the cross over food and drink before a meal has a profound mystical meaning. Standing behind it is the practical use: the food is purified literally in an instant. This is a great miracle, which happens literally every day,? physicist Angelina Malakhovskaya said as cited by the Zhizn newspaper on Friday.
Malakhovskaya have studied that power of the sign of the cross with the blessing of the Church for nearly ten years now. She has carried out a great number of experiments, which have been repeatedly verified before their results were made public.
She has discovered in particular the unique bactericidal properties of water after being blessed by an Orthodox prayer and a sign of the cross. The study also revealed a new, earlier unknown property of the Word of God to transform the structure of water, increasing considerably its optical density in the short ultra-violet spectral region, the newspaper writes.
The scientists have verified the impact the Lord?s Prayer and the Orthodox sign of the cross make on pathogenic bacteria. Water samples from various reservoirs - wells, rivers, lakes - were taken for the research. All the samples had goldish taphylococcus, a colon bacillus. It turned out however, that if the Lord?s Prayer is said and a sign of the cross is made over them, the number of harmful bacteria will decrease seven, ten, hundred and even over thousand times.
The experiments were made in such a way as to exclude a possible impact of mental suggestion. The prayer was said by both believer and non-believers, but the number of pathogenic bacteria in various environments with different sets of bacteria still decreased as compared to the reference templates.
The scientists have also proved the beneficial impact that the prayer and the sign of the cross have on people. All the participants in the tests had their blood pressure stabilized and blood indexes improved. Strikingly, the indexes changed towards the healing needed: hypotensive people had their blood pressure raised, while hypertensive people had it reduced.
It was also observed that if the sign of the cross is made offhandedly, with the three fingers put together unscrupulously or placed outside the necessary points - the middle of the forehead, the center of the solar plexus and the recesses in the right and left shoulders - the positive result was much weaker or absent altogether.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: koppie]
#5517500 - 04/14/06 10:57 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
koppie said: ?We have ascertained that the old custom to make a sign of the cross over food and drink before a meal has a profound mystical meaning. Standing behind it is the practical use: the food is purified literally in an instant. This is a great miracle, which happens literally every day,? physicist Angelina Malakhovskaya said as cited by the Zhizn newspaper on Friday.
Bowl of Ramen Noodles.
Cyanide.
Let's test this one out.
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Shroomerious
OO


Registered: 07/27/03
Posts: 534
Last seen: 13 years, 7 months
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Re: Prayer Study Fails Miserably [Re: fireworks_god]
#5517673 - 04/15/06 12:15 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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lol
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