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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Independent Verification
    #1839999 - 08/22/03 11:09 AM (14 years, 3 days ago)

So many of the ideas bandied about on this board are borrowed; whether it is about soulmates, reincarnation, astrology, guardian angels or whatever. If an idea is valid, another human being with the same data and similar circumstances should be able to come to the same conclusion; but apparently one cannot as so many of these "concepts" have no substance except as passed down cultural myths.

I sincerely doubt if you took a spaceship filled with babies in hibernation and no library on board and sent to another planet, that few, if any, of these ideas would even be dreamed up.





--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlineneutralizer
Spiritual beinghaving a Humanexperience
Registered: 06/17/03
Posts: 635
Loc: This Planet Earth
Last seen: 10 years, 6 months
Re: Independent Verification [Re: Swami]
    #1840008 - 08/22/03 11:14 AM (14 years, 3 days ago)

What ideas would they come up with?  I wonder if they would (assuming it was a planet comprable to this one) come up with any concept of religion or spirituality at all?  Or for that matter, I wonder if they would have the same emotions that we identify with as humans?  Or would that not come until someone ate some acid or shrooms (included on the way over, of course :smile:) and wanted to share with (or dominate) others?


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There are things known, and there are things unknown, and in between are the doors - Morrison


Edited by neutralizer (08/22/03 11:15 AM)


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OfflineMindTrap
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Re: Independent Verification [Re: neutralizer]
    #1840033 - 08/22/03 11:22 AM (14 years, 3 days ago)

I doubt that any of our thoughts are truly unique.

I think that given enough time all cultures would come to the same truths. They might just go about it in a different way or take varying lengths of time to get there.


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InvisibleTrippeeChik
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Re: Independent Verification [Re: Swami]
    #1840052 - 08/22/03 11:30 AM (14 years, 3 days ago)

you doubt it but its not impossible due to most religions sharing the same concept, originating from different parts of the world.


--------------------
look buddy,,


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Independent Verification [Re: TrippeeChik]
    #1840389 - 08/22/03 01:10 PM (14 years, 3 days ago)

Hmmm... sending babies to live on their own and not have any way of learning what we have... it'd be like the dawn of a civilization. I doubt that these babies would even survive, and if they did, they would have a lot of reinventing the wheel to be doing, language, social structure, actually reinventing the wheel...

Perhaps these babies are instilled with the basics first, so that they would be able to actually communicate their ideas and survive? I don't see how they would be able to survive without this, since we slowly, continuously evovled from something less... there are literally millions of years of experience that has made us who we are, and I don't think it would be possible to abandon babies with only their genetic traits and hope they would even be able to get anywhere...
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

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Re: Independent Verification [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1840528 - 08/22/03 01:58 PM (14 years, 3 days ago)

> I sincerely doubt if you took a spaceship filled with babies in hibernation and no library on board and sent to another planet, that few, if any, of these ideas would even be dreamed up.

I donno about this... it seems the human brain is wired to think a certain way about some things. Before our modern time, people were fairly isolated across the world, yet we see similiar believe structures between geographically isolated populations.

> If an idea is valid, another human being with the same data and similar circumstances should be able to come to the same conclusion

I would think an idea is valid regardless of the number of people that think it up. Because Einstein was the only person to come up with the idea of relativity, it should be tossed as invalid? Perhaps I am misreading what you are trying to say here...?



--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
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Re: Independent Verification [Re: Seuss]
    #1840937 - 08/22/03 03:59 PM (14 years, 3 days ago)

I would think an idea is valid regardless of the number of people that think it up. Because Einstein was the only person to come up with the idea of relativity, it should be tossed as invalid? Perhaps I am misreading what you are trying to say here...?
Einstein's theory has been largely validated. The concept of guardian angels has not.

I donno about this... it seems the human brain is wired to think a certain way about some things. Before our modern time, people were fairly isolated across the world, yet we see similiar believe structures between geographically isolated populations.
The belief systems of the tribes of New Gunea have nothing to do with those of the Amazon. Please show the linkage that you are talking about.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineMindTrap
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Re: Independent Verification [Re: Swami]
    #1841004 - 08/22/03 04:18 PM (14 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Swami said:

Einstein's theory has been largely validated. The concept of guardian angels has not.




Last I checked the idea has not been invalidated either.


Edited by MindTrap (08/22/03 04:51 PM)


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

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Re: Independent Verification [Re: Swami]
    #1841020 - 08/22/03 04:21 PM (14 years, 3 days ago)

> Einstein's theory has been largely validated. The concept of guardian angels has not.

His theory has been mostly validated, but when he first released it, most people thought that he was nut. I think you hit upon my point though... just because a lot of people believe something does not make it true. It is the verification of the event/idea/observation that solidifies its acceptance or correctness.

> The belief systems of the tribes of New Gunea have nothing to do with those of the Amazon. Please show the linkage that you are talking about.

Hmm... lets use burial rights. Almost every ancient society that buried their dead included objects in the burial to help the dead in the next life. Assuming that we have correctly identified the reason that these objects were included, it would seem to indicate that these geographically isolated populations believed in life after death... coming to the belief independent from one another.


I think that humans, regardless of culture or location or education, will tend to create some sort of faith based belief system. I do not know why... we want to beleive in something greather than ourselves, perhaps. Maybe it is the need to explain the mystery of life and death, or simply to provide a reason for why we are here.

Even if isolated populations come to the same conclusion regarding a faith based system, there is no proof that the system is correct. I have had some very eye-opening experiences, and I base my faith upon them. I have read and spoken with others that have had similiar experiences. I have no idea if my experiences are something mystical, or if they are simply a change in brain chemistry that makes them seem significant.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Re: Independent Verification [Re: MindTrap]
    #1841027 - 08/22/03 04:23 PM (14 years, 3 days ago)

"Largely" is a modifier.

Sometimes I feel like an English teacher. Geez....


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Independent Verification [Re: Seuss]
    #1841569 - 08/22/03 07:33 PM (14 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
I donno about this... it seems the human brain is wired to think a certain way about some things. Before our modern time, people were fairly isolated across the world, yet we see similiar believe structures between geographically isolated populations.





Of course, at one time, before the people were isolated into different populations geographically, all the people were from one society and were then seperated, hence the similarities...

And, if that doesn't hold up, people around the world are exposed to a lot of simliar experiences, which could result in the similarities as well.

The difference here, of course, is that the babies are completely on their own with nothing really pre-programmed into our head... perhaps our heads are not wired to think certain ways, however, the ways we think are wired after we are born by what we pick up from our parents and the society we live in.. that's the way this knowledge is passed down. All of this knowledge has been progressively passed down and expanded on for millions of years.

These babies wouldn't have access to any of that, and since they would not be in a situation in which they could survive, they would never get a chance to start collecting knowledge, which of course would only start with these babies, and would take thousands of generations to rebuild the knowledge, if it even ended up being remotely similar.

There is a big difference from life slowly evolving into monkeys, and onwards from that (all along the way, the life has always had some means of survival) and being dropped into the woods without purposely being adapted to being in the woods...
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefalcon
In the green

Registered: 04/01/02
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Re: Independent Verification [Re: Swami]
    #1842091 - 08/22/03 10:27 PM (14 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

I sincerely doubt if you took a spaceship filled with babies in hibernation and no library on board and sent to another planet, that few, if any, of these ideas would even be dreamed up.




:lol:

if you took a spaceship filled with babies in hibernation and no library on board and sent to another planet

they would become the butt a 1000 other planet dead baby jokes
 


--------------------
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
I have done it before and it never has an effect on the true believer so what is the point?




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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: Independent Verification [Re: Swami]
    #1842337 - 08/22/03 11:49 PM (14 years, 3 days ago)


So many of the ideas bandied about on this board are borrowed; whether it is about soulmates, reincarnation, astrology, guardian angels or whatever. If an idea is valid, another human being with the same data and similar circumstances should be able to come to the same conclusion; but apparently one cannot as so many of these "concepts" have no substance except as passed down cultural myths.

You think that fits right in there with Dogma?

I sincerely doubt if you took a spaceship filled with babies in hibernation and no library on board and sent to another planet, that few, if any, of these ideas would even be dreamed up.

they would have horrible social problems, and probably suffer from social retardation. Which is in itself is Retardation like any, but its not physical and keeps people from learning as fast as others. Not to mention im sure these kids would be so spaced and wacked out...  :alert: 


--------------------
What?


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Invisible2Experimental
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Registered: 01/15/03
Posts: 18,073
Re: Independent Verification [Re: Zero7a1]
    #1842547 - 08/23/03 01:20 AM (14 years, 3 days ago)

yall should read lord of the flies, its about kids who get stranded on an island for a long time, and you see how they develop socially ect, the whole book is about "are humans inherently evil" or so said my teacher long ago. :spliff:


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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: Independent Verification [Re: 2Experimental]
    #1843065 - 08/23/03 12:10 PM (14 years, 2 days ago)

I have read it, its a very good book. I even made a movie parody, its bad ass :wink:. The kids in that book were really messed up, but i think that as like you said revolves around human nature. How people in our world are not really ready to deal with eachother in the world of survival.


--------------------
What?


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OfflineDeiymiyan
I AM

Registered: 04/17/03
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Re: Independent Verification [Re: Swami]
    #1843114 - 08/23/03 12:45 PM (14 years, 2 days ago)

"Einstein's theory has been largely validated. The concept of guardian angels has not."
--------------------------


You just might be right..

How can you validate something you can't see?



If our "primitive" scientific instruments are not sensitive enough to detect them [suppose the hypothesis is... That they exist], and our visual perception reveals too small a wavelength to notice them... How would you, then, propose the concept be validated ?




--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Independent Verification [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1843127 - 08/23/03 12:50 PM (14 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

Deiymiyan said:

How can you validate something you can't see?

If our "primitive" scientific instruments are not sensitive enough to detect them [suppose the hypothesis is... That they exist], and our visual perception reveals too small a wavelength to notice them... How would you, then, propose the concept be validated ?





We'd have to improve either our scientific instruments, or our eyesight... Of course, people shouldn't claim such as true and then say you can't prove it wrong, so don't even try. It's great when they do that "Yeah, this holds true, but you can't prove me wrong, so don't even try". How can you prove yourself right? "Oh, I can't". Then why do you still believe in the existance of something if there is no way to know either way? "Because it is cool to do"
hehe
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Re: Independent Verification [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1843154 - 08/23/03 01:12 PM (14 years, 2 days ago)

"We'd have to improve either our scientific instruments, or our eyesight... "
-----------------------


Perhaps that might solidify as being true in the [near?] future..


But what about nowadays?  What kinds/types of validations would be considered?



What if the only evidence was something like "footprints"?



For example...  Wolf's prints in the snow show its passing..  They reflect and validate the wolf's presence...  They don't show the wolf, however...  But if you were alone and unarmed in the forest, ran accross fresh wolfprints... 


Surely you wouldn't say: "Well........ seeing is believing.."





You'd be  building a castle behind you !!!!


[AKA...  Shitting bricks  :lol: ]


 


--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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Offlineblahblah
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Re: Independent Verification [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1844467 - 08/24/03 12:25 AM (14 years, 2 days ago)


Fireworks_god:

Quote:

We'd have to improve either our scientific instruments, or our eyesight... Of course, people shouldn't claim such as true and then say you can't prove it wrong, so don't even try. It's great when they do that "Yeah, this holds true, but you can't prove me wrong, so don't even try". How can you prove yourself right? "Oh, I can't". Then why do you still believe in the existance of something if there is no way to know either way? "Because it is cool to do"
hehe
Peace.





Shor answer: I treat the anecdotes like subjects in social sciences (they do exist, you know!) - not like diehard lab-coat empiricists. "Give me proof in a lab and I'll believe it."

long answer:

like yours, circular reasoning are among many skeptics vs whomever in debates and flamefests.  :laugh:

How about I phrase it like this: Does anyone truly understand the power of beliefs?  It is REALLY REAL in any way? Is there a right or wrong in a belief?  Where the *smeep* did your beliefs originate?  Genes? Family?  There are always exceptions.  There more questions then answers in Science. 

Currently, Science has no real interest in deciphering our existentialism. There has been much more materialistic advances than the spiritual.  Why? money talks. All about business. ahaha

On a personal level, a shift in logic and inquiry verse always the "axiom of doubt" via beliefs would be beneficial.  I consider limiting beliefs [ethocentric, negative emotions] obstruct the clarity of logic, intuition and reason [detachment, illuminate, discernment]. 

If you're referring to isolated and repeated phenomenon that one individual witnesses and/or experiences, then it his/her right to shape or interpret such to his/her fancy.  If within the same group, same rights.  The onus is not on the receiver to proof its scientifically valid.  There shouldn't be an expectation of hardcore proof to satisfy both party or the doubters.

NO one has the right to enforce such unfair edicts.  Whoever askes for proof, knowing bloody well, there will be none, is being stoopid, unjustiably enforcing one's core beliefs onto another, and, probably,  has personal issues with their own reality.

Please, do not take this the wrong way.  I express it, generally, to nobody.  Just my observations among many forums I've visited.

-K


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: Independent Verification [Re: blahblah]
    #1844891 - 08/24/03 05:09 AM (14 years, 2 days ago)

not like diehard lab-coat empiricists. "Give me proof in a lab and I'll believe it."
Proof requires neither a lab nor a coat (yet another time-worn "believer" response).

long answer: like yours, circular reasoning are among many skeptics vs whomever in debates and flamefests.
Is there a complete thought or even a sentence here?

Is there a right or wrong in a belief?
This is a ridiculous question. I could list a near-infinite variety of examples.

There more questions then answers in Science.
And...? There are more answers with science than without it.

Currently, Science has no real interest in deciphering our existentialism. There has been much more materialistic advances than the spiritual. Why? money talks.
More nonsense. What is stopping YOU and other believers from advancing common knowledge about spirituality? Must one wait for scientists to study something that interests you? Science studies the physical plane. Experimental tests on spirituality all fall flat.

On a personal level, a shift in logic and inquiry verse always the "axiom of doubt" via beliefs would be beneficial. I consider limiting beliefs [ethocentric, negative emotions] obstruct the clarity of logic, intuition and reason [detachment, illuminate, discernment].
Huh?

The onus is not on the receiver to proof [prove] its scientifically valid.
It certainly is when the receiver makes claims of repeatability. "Prayer worked for me and it can for you to!"

There shouldn't be an expectation of hardcore proof to satisfy both party or the doubters.
Why is that?

NO one has the right to enforce such unfair edicts.
How is it even remotely unfair to ask people to demonstrate what they claim is demonstrable?

Whoever askes for proof, knowing bloody well, there will be none, is being stoopid...
So I am stupid to start with the premise that another's claims might actually be true, then ask them to show me how they come to such a conclusion?




--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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