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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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How does Heaven account for sympathy?
    #5368918 -

I was thinking about the concept of 'heaven' the other day (its not something I believe in but bear with me) and I came across a rather troubling problem.  If my interpretation of anything here is incorrect, by all means, correct me; religion (namely christianity) is not my forte.

Heaven, to my understanding, is a place you go after you die if you've been good.  Your reward for a righteous life is eternal bliss (which sounds good to me).  However, what if you have some family members or friends, people you care deeply about, that are 'sinners' and are on a highway to hell?  When you die and go to heaven, wouldn't it cause you to suffer knowing that these people you care about are in agony, burning in hell?  I know it would cause me to suffer a great deal, but how can I suffer/feel sadness if I'm in heaven?

How am I expected to live a happy, carefree existence in heaven with the knowledge that people I care about are suffering horrible fates?  When I show up at the pearly gates am I lied to, told that my loved ones are fine and waiting for me on a cloud somewhere?  If I do meet said people in heaven, are they the real ones or merely some false representation of them in order to distract me from knowing the painful truth?  Is heaven regarded as an objective place (like taking a trip to disneyland, either you're there or you aren't) or is it subjective (custom tailored to the needs of the individual)?  If the latter is the case, then to some degree are you living a lie while in heaven if you find yourself surrounded by people that should, by all means be in hell?

I would assume this problem has been dealt with in the past but maybe not, what do I know? :tongue:  I would love to hear some input on how this issue has been resolved (or has it?) by either the church or great thinkers of the past, especially if you are informed.


--------------------
"this lebowski he called himself 'the dude'. now, 'dude', that's a name no one would self-apply where i come from but there was a lot about the dude that didn't make sense to me...."--the Stranger

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Re: How does Heaven account for sympathy? [Re: TheDude]
    #5368946 -

who cares when ur in heaven baby

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Re: How does Heaven account for sympathy? [Re: TheDude]
    #5368951 -

Literalist Christianity is full of such problems. However, it should be noted that there was an apocryphal book called the Apocalypse of Peter which says that the souls in hell can be saved if the souls in heaven will it so. This basically means that eventually, everyone would be saved. It is likely for this reason that the Apocalypse of John(better known as the Book of Revelation) was chosen over it.


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Re: How does Heaven account for sympathy? [Re: TheDude]
    #5369090 -

God erases your memory of them


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:orly:


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Re: How does Heaven account for sympathy? [Re: Microcosmatrix]
    #5369218 -

You understand that life is just a dream and they will be with you soon.


--------------------
Give your money or your life
Take 'em both for all I care
Dump your bullets right here

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Re: How does Heaven account for sympathy? [Re: Dmonikal]
    #5369253 -

Maybe they wont be with you soon. That's the whole point he's trying to make.

How does heaven stay happy when there's souls in hell?


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:orly:


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Re: How does Heaven account for sympathy? [Re: TheDude]
    #5369488 -

Your interpretation of heaven is not supported by the bible. It should be noted that most of what "the church" teaches is not supported by the bible. Ignore the religion, focus on the philosophy. The christian religion is not very aware of the God it pretends to know. You can be sure Jesus would have as much to say against the church today as he did 2000 years ago.

Also take a look through this site: http://www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com
This site addresses your concerns.

The concept of an eternal hell is not in the bible, but parables and figures of speech has been warped out of shape by fear-mongers who are too scared to see the truth themselves.

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Re: How does Heaven account for sympathy? [Re: TheDude]
    #5369861 -

First of all I don't think you can be happy living in a cloud. Emotions is what makes us happy or sad. What kind of emotions can you have by living in a cloud, surrounded by other souls living there?
Heaven as it is described in the bible is made up just to make the people behave the way the religion wants. To make you submit to what say
in order to sell you "heaven".
Heaven as I see it is going to a higher spirituality and form of understanding. Hell is contrary.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: How does Heaven account for sympathy? [Re: TheDude]
    #5370568 -

You will know, why they suffer and why you may not show them that from heaven. You will see, what they have still to learn, or to experience, what is their meaning in the full.
You will comprehend, as you will see their personality, their history, their spiritual context, once you are there...


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Edited by BlueCoyote (03/06/06 11:50 AM)

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Re: How does Heaven account for sympathy? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #5370961 -

MushroomTrip said:
First of all I don't think you can be happy living in a cloud. Emotions is what makes us happy or sad. What kind of emotions can you have by living in a cloud, surrounded by other souls living there?
Heaven as it is described in the bible is made up just to make the people behave the way the religion wants. To make you submit to what say
in order to sell you "heaven".



There is no description of heaven in the bible resembling what you just said. That's the Hallmark version. Why did you think the bible talks about living in clouds without emotion?
Quote:
Heaven as I see it is going to a higher spirituality and form of understanding. Hell is contrary.


That is closer to the description of heaven and hell that is in the bible.

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Re: How does Heaven account for sympathy? [Re: TheDude]
    #5370995 -

I'm no person big on religion, but sitting through 11 years of Christian school has taught me a few things.

First, the Bible says Hell is the absence of God, or the lack of/not being able to be with, etc...

Second, let me ask you a question. You are concerned about your 'emotions' if you are in heaven and people you care about here are in hell. Saying that G(g)od is real...would you trade everything, now, in this life, to know for a fact that it is real? For those that believe in this religion, God is the end, God is the finale, the ultimate, etc...why would anyone else matter if you could have the one final thing? I hope that is somewhat clear for you, but I would like to see a repsonse.


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David

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Re: How does Heaven account for sympathy? [Re: demiu5]
    #5371023 -

God also defined what he is, himself: "I am the way, the truth and the life." So if you can clearly see what is truth, and you have the fullness of life in you, which comes by the way of love, then you have God, and heaven.
"The kingdom of God is within you," not above you in the clouds. Likewise hell is also a state within you, and you aren't punished for being in that state, rather that state provides the motivation to get out of it.
God seriously told me I should be dating girls so that I would have someone to love, and it would keep me out of that inner hell.

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Re: How does Heaven account for sympathy? [Re: Disco Cat]
    #5371029 -

Disco Cat said:
Also take a look through this site: http://www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com
This site addresses your concerns.


Thanks for the link, plenty to read there, it will keep me busy for a while.

Quote:
The concept of an eternal hell is not in the bible, but parables and figures of speech has been warped out of shape by fear-mongers who are too scared to see the truth themselves.


I've always had that suspicion (since I tend to side with Marx's view of religion) but having never read the bible I wasn't sure.  Are there any translations of the bible that do talk about eternal hell, is it a relatively recent addition or has it been fed to people for hundreds of years now?  Any idea when the concept of eternal hell first came into play?


MushroomTrip said:
First of all I don't think you can be happy living in a cloud. Emotions is what makes us happy or sad. What kind of emotions can you have by living in a cloud, surrounded by other souls living there?


Are you trying to say that without a reference point of sadness, how can one experience happiness?  If so, then I completely agree, heaven might become "boring" after a while if you have nothing to continually compare it to...unless memories of suffering on earth stay as vivid as the day they happened, which I find hard to believe.


Quote:
Heaven as it is described in the bible is made up just to make the people behave the way the religion wants. To make you submit to what say
in order to sell you "heaven".


Agreed, especially when considering the indulgence controversy that got Luther all worked up.  The concept of heaven/hell (an afterlife in general) is certainly a powerful tool to manipulate and control people into behaving a particular way in this life.


BlueCoyote said:
You will know, why they suffer and why you may not show them that from heaven. You will see, what they have still to learn, or to experience, what is their meaning in the full.
You will comprehend, as you will see their personality, their history, their spiritual context, once you are there...


*if I am there :smirk:.  But seriously, even with all that knowledge I would be expected to not feel sadness or compassion?  I would essentially feel neutral about the entire situation?  Or am I supposed to find comfort in the fact that their suffering will eventually lead to a greater spiritual understanding of the way of the universe?


--------------------
"this lebowski he called himself 'the dude'. now, 'dude', that's a name no one would self-apply where i come from but there was a lot about the dude that didn't make sense to me...."--the Stranger

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Re: How does Heaven account for sympathy? [Re: TheDude]
    #5371079 -

Just some quotes:

"With God everything is possible"
"God wishes that no one is lost"

How is there any room left for eternal hell? Some more quotes:

Jesus: "all things have been given into my hands"
Jesus on the cross: "Lord forgive them for they know not what they do"

So Jesus judged everyone right there, and his judgement was that he declared everyone innocent.

Jesus: "It is done."

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Re: How does Heaven account for sympathy? [Re: demiu5]
    #5371110 -

demius said:
First, the Bible says Hell is the absence of God, or the lack of/not being able to be with, etc...


How can there be an absence of god if it is the supreme creator of everything? Isn't it everywhere, whether I see it or not? Does that mean (the concept of) god is more about my subjective perception since the lack of god is merely an illusion, a skewed way of looking at the world? In other words, how can god fail to exist in its own creation?


Quote:
Saying that G(g)od is real...would you trade everything, now, in this life, to know for a fact that it is real?


I don't really have a choice since I will die at some point and find out anyways. I guess the question doesn't make sense to me, if we say/accept that god is real, then why would I have to give up my life in order to learn something I already know to be true? But since I can't definitively say god is real or unreal, then no, I would not give up everything right now to learn which one is correct because I could possibly be in for quite a surprise (the realization that I gave up my life for nothing).


Quote:
For those that believe in this religion, God is the end, God is the finale, the ultimate, etc...why would anyone else matter if you could have the one final thing?


That just seems a bit selfish to me, to only worry about your own wellbeing while ignoring the fates of people you care about. Isn't hell the one final thing for all the sinners? I sort of see what you're getting at though, if you are one with god then perhaps you understand 'his plan' and the reason for the suffering and whatnot, but eh...it doesn't sit right with me.


--------------------
"this lebowski he called himself 'the dude'. now, 'dude', that's a name no one would self-apply where i come from but there was a lot about the dude that didn't make sense to me...."--the Stranger

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Re: How does Heaven account for sympathy? [Re: Disco Cat]
    #5371118 -

Disco Cat said:
Just some quotes:

"With God everything is possible"
"God wishes that no one is lost"

How is there any room left for eternal hell? Some more quotes:

Jesus: "all things have been given into my hands"
Jesus on the cross: "Lord forgive them for they know not what they do"

So Jesus judged everyone right there, and his judgement was that he declared everyone innocent.

Jesus: "It is done."


Jman comes through in the clutch. Thanks for the quotes, they are helping me understand this a bit better.


--------------------
"this lebowski he called himself 'the dude'. now, 'dude', that's a name no one would self-apply where i come from but there was a lot about the dude that didn't make sense to me...."--the Stranger

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Re: How does Heaven account for sympathy? [Re: TheDude]
    #5371128 -

Ok, let me try again. If you were one with god, what else matters?

I may be mistaken, but in the Bible, hell is also described as a realm created for the fallen, which god does not enter. Like I said, I could be wrong. If someone willingly dismisses god, then god cannot enter. This = hell.

You're still thinking of hell as a physical place. It's in all of us, as is heaven.


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David

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Re: How does Heaven account for sympathy? [Re: TheDude]
    #5371264 -

*if I am there . But seriously, even with all that knowledge I would be expected to not feel sadness or compassion? I would essentially feel neutral about the entire situation? Or am I supposed to find comfort in the fact that their suffering will eventually lead to a greater spiritual understanding of the way of the universe?
You will be very happy and pleased, as you will see it is all for everones good. Often, the ancient gods were regarded to live in some kind of 'mirror world', which is not tangible for the mortal parts of humans. "The ancients, are mumu" , you know "justified and ancient" :wink:

That's why we have to expressively stop (us and others) suffering here, while incarnated.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Edited by BlueCoyote (03/06/06 03:37 PM)

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Re: How does Heaven account for sympathy? [Re: TheDude]
    #5371869 -

TheDude said:
MushroomTrip said:
First of all I don't think you can be happy living in a cloud. Emotions is what makes us happy or sad. What kind of emotions can you have by living in a cloud, surrounded by other souls living there?


Are you trying to say that without a reference point of sadness, how can one experience happiness? If so, then I completely agree, heaven might become "boring" after a while if you have nothing to continually compare it to...unless memories of suffering on earth stay as vivid as the day they happened, which I find hard to believe.




No, I was replying to you because you said that can't live happy on a cloud knowing that your loved ones are in heaven.And living on a "cloud" - as a figure of speech - knowing you're in heaven and you're being rewarded doesn't makes you happy.
I was sustaining that heaven and hell must be more. As spiritual evolution and understanging, as well as forgetiing about stuff like egoism and materialism.
And hell not as punishment, but more like going back on the evolution scale, decadence, etc.
And maybe, assuming that after life is heaven or hell, you, as becoming wiser would'n feel sad about the loved ones being "in hell", but seing the big pig picture. Which could be something like that: realizing that they go through hell to see and understand their mistakes in order to finally evolve and become wise.
In a few words, "hell" can be seen as something that can be beaten, becoming just a final fase to get things straight.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: How does Heaven account for sympathy? [Re: TheDude]
    #5374331 -

Perhaps it is not even their mistakes, perhaps they are so 'good' that they chose to envolve with the solving of the mistakes of others...
:heart:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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