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InvisibleDiploidM
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Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
A Question About Sin
    #4122989 - 05/02/05 01:10 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Another serious question for the faithful.

If I lead a sinless life because I'm scared of God's wrath, is it the same as if I lead a sinless life because I'm a 'good' person?

According to most scripture, there's no difference, but I think there's a BIG difference.

What do you think?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: A Question About Sin [Re: Diploid]
    #4123034 - 05/02/05 01:21 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I think some christians would claim that there is no difference to God. They believe that God wants everyone to join him in heaven, but because of his absolute pure state, the unpure will not be able to withstand his presence. The bad parts will burn. This is why they have to be separated from God.

If people lived sinless, no parts would burn, and they could hang out with the dude for eternity.

christians of course claim that it is impossible to live a life this clean, therefore god was born as jesus in human form, died and now operates as a shield in heaven for all who accept him as such a saviour.

pretty bad luck for those born in the amazon who never got the chance to pick up on this jesus-dude. forever tormented in hell because of god's sloppy work.


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Offlineslaphappy
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Re: A Question About Sin [Re: dorkus]
    #4123070 - 05/02/05 01:32 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

And the fact that you are born with sin.

Born in sin.

Or sinfully born.

Born is sin.

The only sinfree life was Jesus, or so they say.


--------------------
The argent messenger of truth beyond truth, the antithesis of life, cruel and bleak as interstellar space, pulseless and frozen as absolute zero, dazzling with the frost of irrefragable logic and unforgettable fact.


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: A Question About Sin [Re: slaphappy]
    #4123372 - 05/02/05 02:49 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

"Mennesket f?der over skrevs p? en grav."

"Birth was the death of him."

Samuel Beckett

r.i.p.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: A Question About Sin [Re: Diploid]
    #4123568 - 05/02/05 03:57 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

When I took an ethics class, one of the first points the professor made is that ethics deals primarily with actions, not thoughts. From a Freudian standpoint, I think you could say we're all fucked in the head, but it's our actions towards one another that count.


--------------------


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: A Question About Sin [Re: Diploid]
    #4123602 - 05/02/05 04:05 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

To explain what I want to convey, I have to go into what religion, to me, is about.

Religion is not about asking favours of some higher being. It's about discovering a higher dimension and entering into a relationship with it. One of trust and love from both sides. Note that most religious people do not do that.

Now, knowing this, what is a sin? Anything that will compromise the relationship with said divine being.

Applying this to your question, it is obvious someone fearing God has no relationship with Him/Her/It from the start, and will sin all the time.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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Offlinetomk
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Re: A Question About Sin [Re: Silversoul]
    #4123648 - 05/02/05 04:13 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

People read the bible to literally. When you read the bible you have to remember that jesus was experiencing full blown cosmic consciousness but had little to no religious framework with which to understand his experience. Therefore, he used the old testament as his basis and didn't really get at a lot of concepts.

That Jesus experienced cosmic consciousness is evidenced by his sayings like "Whatever you do unto the least of people you do unto me." Since Jesus had no ego and was cosmic he say no difference between himself and other people.

Were jesus more articulate, he would of said "These stories are very very highly metaphorical. Don't take them so literally. What it means when the bible says we are all born into sin is that we are all born with what the hindu's call maya, or great illusion, i.e. ego, i.e. the feeling that you are seperate from your environemnt. Hell isn't a lake of fire ruled over by a negro who smokes pot (like the baptists think), but rather dying without realizing your ego is an illusion. Now, some christian monastics will be able to induce religious experience by using me as an object of meditation, but that doesn't mean I am the only way to get rid of maya, i.e. sin."

I know this because I am jesus. A mushroom told me so.


--------------------
"I am eternally free"


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OfflineJCoke
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Re: A Question About Sin [Re: Alan Stone]
    #4123676 - 05/02/05 04:20 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

diploid, this same question is why I stoped going to church.

that's one thing i like about buddhism, it's there for your benefit, take it or leave it, atleast that how i have had it presented to me,,,most christians see jesus as "take it,,or burn in hell forever!", which is just sickening.

how i see jesus, is he did die for our sins and all that, but he was for sure not worried about people aknoledging his historical exinstince,,if he was worried about that, you think God being all knowing would atleast wait for the 20th century for some dna evidence and maybe some movies of him doing some miracles or whatever else, instead, i think what is done is done, and he wants people to follow his teachings and understanding of God and love.

the fact if he is the son of God, that would be a given, just like you are the son of your father, no reason to argue, everyone would just know, seeing as the bible says there is no excuse for not knowing God, that all have given enough to acknoledge his exinstence, there fore jesus would be just as easy to recognize.


--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.


Edited by JCoke (05/02/05 04:24 PM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: A Question About Sin [Re: Diploid]
    #4123768 - 05/02/05 04:45 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Orthodox Christian doctrine makes a complete distinction, as you suggest. If one attempts to live a righteous life, the only spiritually legitimate purpose is because one loves GOD. I attempted to be ascetic for some years: simple diet, gave my stereo and records to my brother who took them to college, slept on a folded blanket on the floor, stopped using all intoxicants, and became celibate. When I finally failed at celibacy and gave in to a seduction, I beat myself up psychologically (although, in other times, people would flagellate themselves with cat-o'-nine tails). It was my egocentrism, my spiritual pride, my record time at celibacy that had all been hurt - that was my concern. I came to realize several important things through this:

(1) Abandon this pseudo-asceticism - it is just ego.

(2) The motivation to 'love GOD' was not for me some emotional trip with the popular 'god' of superstition, the Old-Bearded-Guy-in-the-Sky; neither was I hurting Jesus who had become omniscient and omnipresent. The motivation to 'love GOD' meant that I must 'love TRUTH,' or again, 'love Reality,' which is really synonymous with Truth.

(3) To 'love Reality' or to 'love Truth' meant to BE Real and BE Truthful. All of this had nothing to do with torturing myself in order to reduce my ego, in order to experience higher degrees of 'Cosmic' or 'Christ Consciousness.' It meant that I had to be genuine, non-deceiving, non-greedy, non-lying, and reject all the sleazy, dishonest behaviors that are called 'sin' by religion. It also meant that I had to BE virtuous, like the Boy Scout motto. What I didn't learn until years later was that one needs to be "as wise as a serpent" while being "as harmless as a dove." It required a bad marriage to a wicked woman, and the subsequent divorce for me to integrate these opposites in a balanced, fully adult personality.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlineegghead1
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Re: A Question About Sin [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4123820 - 05/02/05 05:03 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

When The Buddha practiced asceticism i think he came to the same conclusion as you and abandoned it in favor of the middle way. Truth and reality are interdependent, like the moon and its reflection on the surface of a lake. You are very wise Markos, and it shines through nicely in your posts............  :heart:


--------------------
All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: A Question About Sin [Re: egghead1]
    #4124447 - 05/02/05 07:35 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Thanks :blush:


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: A Question About Sin [Re: Diploid]
    #4124454 - 05/02/05 07:37 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Another serious question for the faithful.

If I lead a sinless life because I'm scared of God's wrath, is it the same as if I lead a sinless life because I'm a 'good' person?

According to most scripture, there's no difference, but I think there's a BIG difference.

What do you think?





I think there is a huge difference too


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineSmallworlds
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Re: A Question About Sin [Re: Diploid]
    #4125196 - 05/02/05 10:23 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Another serious question for the faithful.

If I lead a sinless life because I'm scared of God's wrath, is it the same as if I lead a sinless life because I'm a 'good' person?

According to most scripture, there's no difference, but I think there's a BIG difference.

What do you think?




You can't "live a sinless life". It's your attitude that matters the most.


--------------------
Through the excercise of patience, one may learn humility..

Smoke plenty of green, and eat fungus!!!!
:peace::heart::slomo::gd_icon::gd_icon::gd_icon::slomo:


Trip Report


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: A Question About Sin [Re: Diploid]
    #4126002 - 05/03/05 01:26 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
If I lead a sinless life because I'm scared of God's wrath, is it the same as if I lead a sinless life because I'm a 'good' person?

According to most scripture, there's no difference, but I think there's a BIG difference.

What do you think?




In the "Christian" view of sin...everything is sinful.

It does not matter why you lead a "Christian" lifestyle...Fear or Devotion. As long as you....."remain faithful to the teachings of Christ"


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OfflineSmallworlds
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Re: A Question About Sin [Re: niteowl]
    #4127016 - 05/03/05 10:43 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

It does matter. This is not do-able.

In order to goto paradise you have to follow the will of God.

The will of God isn't for you to sit 'round doing "good" for the fear of punishment. That's what the lawman says, and what churches say. This is because they cannot know what is in your heart.

Jesus said "Love one another".

And love is real, and cannot be faked. God knows your heart.

Therefore, that shit won't work, and will probably earn you a position bent over and ass-reamed in hades.


--------------------
Through the excercise of patience, one may learn humility..

Smoke plenty of green, and eat fungus!!!!
:peace::heart::slomo::gd_icon::gd_icon::gd_icon::slomo:


Trip Report


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: A Question About Sin [Re: Smallworlds]
    #4127061 - 05/03/05 10:56 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

What if you're unable to "love one another"?

I think people like Jeffrey Dahmer and Charles Manson are unable to stop killing or to feel empathy for the people they torture and murdere even if they wanted to.

How does God regard them?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlinenonoman
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Re: A Question About Sin [Re: dorkus]
    #4127067 - 05/03/05 10:58 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

dr_mandelbrot said:pretty bad luck for those born in the amazon who never got the chance to pick up on this jesus-dude. forever tormented in hell because of god's sloppy work.




:rotfl:


--------------------


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Offlineegghead1
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Re: A Question About Sin [Re: Diploid]
    #4127073 - 05/03/05 10:59 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
What if you're unable to "love one another"?

I think people like Jeffrey Dahmer and Charles Manson are unable to stop killing or to feel empathy for the people they torture and murdere even if they wanted to.

How does God regard them?





As his lost children maybe :shrug:


--------------------
All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: A Question About Sin [Re: egghead1]
    #4127116 - 05/03/05 11:15 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

But do they go to heaven given that they can't help their actions?

There have been cases of people - good, kind people - who've had a very serious brain injury. They survive only to become total piggish assholes to everyone in their life. I'm talking wife-beating and worse.

From all appearances, these people had no choice in the character of their behavior after the accident. Most would say that someone behaving that way from early on would stand no chance of entering heaven.

What about those who's horrible behavior began after a brain injury? Do they go to heaven or not?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineJCoke
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Re: A Question About Sin [Re: Diploid]
    #4127232 - 05/03/05 11:49 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

well, in biblical times, those people whould be considered "demon possesed",,,so the sin is on the demon, not the man himself.


--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.


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