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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Christ died for our sins?
    #1962831 - 09/29/03 01:30 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I'm having trouble figuring out exactly what Christians mean when they say Christ died for our sins. So does that mean all our sins are forgiven? If that's the case, then why would anyone not go to heaven?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineFunguy
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1962851 - 09/29/03 01:39 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Yes, Christ died for all our sins. Yet you yourself, not your mother, or father, or best friend can make the decision for you. You have to acknowledge the fact that Christ was born of a virgin, lived a perfect, sinless life (which was necessary to die for our sins), died on the cross, and was resurrected. Once you truly, sincerely accept Christ, ALL sins, past and present, are forgiven. Let me go ahead and share the Gospel for you. The ABC's:

A- Admit. Admit that you are a sinner.
B- Believe. Believe that Jesus died for your sins.
C- Confess. Confess that you are a new creation.

It's that easy! Try to find a church that you like. Yes, you may noth agree with everything, but churches are not just about listening to a pastor. It's about fellowship. Christianity are for imperfect people, because nobody's perfect. But through Christ and the Holy spirit we can work together to overcome our differences. Even if we can't exactly see eye-to-eye, we can still walk arm-in-arm. SilverSoul7, God and Christ will always be there for you, and so will I. God bless.


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OTD UNDERDOGS

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1962855 - 09/29/03 01:40 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

> So does that mean all our sins are forgiven?

The way I understand it (as a non-christian) is that before Christ came along, we were stuck with our sins. Once you picked them up there was no getting rid of them.

When Christ came along, and died for our sins, he provided us a way to ditch the sins that we have been collecting by asking for forgiveness through him.

> If that's the case, then why would anyone not go to heaven?

Because you have to accept Jesus into your heart and ask him to forgive you for your sins. If you don't do that, then you are not a christian, and you will burn in hell with the rest of us for all eternity.

Maybe Enter or one of the other Christian members on the board can clear this up a bit better than I.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Seuss]
    #1962865 - 09/29/03 01:44 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

If you truly, sincerely send me money, or even just some food or some marijuana, I, fireworks_god, will forgive you all of your sins.
Peace.


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:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
    #1962868 - 09/29/03 01:45 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

So I have to blindly accept certain unproven assertions as fact in order to be forgiven? Sounds too conditional for you to honestly say he died for all our sins. Seems like you're saying in effect that he died only for the sins of those who worship him.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Seuss]
    #1962870 - 09/29/03 01:48 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Jesus rebelled against scapegoat-ism. He choose to be the last scapegoat, a last offering to appease God, so no human after him would have to sacrifice anything unto God to be forgiven for his sins. Check the writings of Paul Ricoeur and R?n? Girard on this issue.


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle

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OfflineTwirling
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1962894 - 09/29/03 01:58 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

If you look at how many different denominations there are, there are many different ways people interrupt the idea of ?Christ dying for our sins?. The general idea however, is that before the New Testament, there were many rules to obey, but after Jesus came and made ?his sacrifice?, those rules essential became obsolete. People no longer had to live in fear of sin if they accepted Jesus as ?their savoir? which redeemed them from their sins against God. Now that?s the basic theology, however different people have different details and beliefs along those lines.


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The very nature of experience is ineffable; it transcends cognitive thought and intellectualized analysis. To be without experience is to be without an emotional knowledge of what the experience translates into. The desire for the understanding of what life is made of is the motivation that drives us all. Without it, in fear of the experiences what life can hold is among the greatest contradictions; to live in fear of death while not being alive.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Alan Stone]
    #1962896 - 09/29/03 01:59 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

As far as I'm concerned all our sins are forgiven whether Christ died or not. That's not to trivialize Christ's life and sacrafice coz he was a rad guy.... but before Christ did everyone go straight to hell? How about amazing people that didn't accept Christ as thier personal saviour... is gandhi in hell?

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OfflineFunguy
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1962898 - 09/29/03 01:59 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Before Christ came along, the Jewish people had to have an atonement sacrifice once a year to cleanse the people of the sins for that year. Christ's 1st coming was prophesied several times in the Old Testament (the first time in Genesis). In the wilderness, God sent poisonous snakes to the Israelites because of their complaining. Moses went before God on the people's behalf. God told Moses to build a bronze serpent on a staff and have the people look at it. Anybody who just looked and the serpent would be spared.
Imagine some of these people's thoughts. Some looked right away, others fought the idea, then looked. Still some decided that it was a crock, and didn't look, therefore they died. Something that was so easy and free, yet they didn't believe. Yes, I know what many of you think about the Bible, and it may have its inconsistencies, but I still believe that it is the infallible word of God.

SilverSoul7, Christ was basically God in the flesh. You cannot accept that Christ died for your sins and then denouce the Christian faith. You become a Christian. It is not an easy road, and you will not find all of the answers. I still have questions about the Bible, most of which cannot be answered by humans. It is hard to accept something for which you have no proof, yet Christ hiself said that those who see and believe are good, those who do not see and still believe are great. I left my Bible at home so I cannot directly quote the scripture.
I became a Christian at a young age, and I have fallen away and came back. I now believe based on my own accord, not force-fed religious dogma that I have received from various individuals (though many Christians are not like that).
Here is a great website that I recommend:
www.godandscience.com

"Many people will hate you because of me."


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OTD UNDERDOGS

Is attention your retarded heroin?

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OfflineFunguy
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
    #1962906 - 09/29/03 02:01 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

sorry, it's www.godandscience.org

That stuff is always confusing.


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OTD UNDERDOGS

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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Alan Stone]
    #1962907 - 09/29/03 02:01 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

bob dobbs promises salvation or double your money back...
or at least a really good excuse to hand in to the gatekeeper...


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old enough to know better
not old enough to care

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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1962925 - 09/29/03 02:10 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

well...
christianity went through some major convolutions during its first couple/three centuries of development...
and has blended several quite different takes on how the universe is put together and our place in it (galillean phariseeism, essenism, zealotism, gnosticism... with different "takes" on the situation from the jerusalem church, from the far-flung gentile communities (many founded or influenced by saul/paul), from john (the gospel author, and the revelations author, tho prolly not the same guy), and of course input from gentilism & competing mystery cults like mithraism, etc...)
one thing is fairly certain --- the crucified carpenter/rabbi/massiach would prolly not even recognize the organization which claims to be made up of his modern-day disciples...
oy veh, don't even get me started...
shalom...


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old enough to know better
not old enough to care

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: gnrm23]
    #1962951 - 09/29/03 02:20 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

well, I just ate 10 babies and raped a retarded 10 year old.

But thats OK, because Christ died for my sins, and all I have to do is believe that and I can eat as many babies as I want
:rolleyes:

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1962956 - 09/29/03 02:21 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

> But thats OK, because Christ died for my sins, and all I have to do is believe that and I can eat as many babies as I want

Nope, it doesn't work like that. You have to repent, otherwise you are just pissing in the wind pretending that your not getting wet.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Seuss]
    #1962969 - 09/29/03 02:25 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Oh, OK.

"sorry jesus, for eating all those babies."

now I'm in the clear

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1962978 - 09/29/03 02:27 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

> now I'm in the clear

Yep... :grin:  (assuming you are truly repentant)


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Just another spore in the wind.

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OfflineFunguy
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1962981 - 09/29/03 02:28 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

You cannot just say you're sorry. You have to truly repent, and not want to ever do it again. You may and probably will slip up, but your faith in Christ can help you. Even true Christians are human beings, and all humans make mistakes. Salvation is available to ALL, if you truly believe.


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OTD UNDERDOGS

Is attention your retarded heroin?

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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1962985 - 09/29/03 02:28 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

So I have to blindly accept certain unproven assertions as fact in order to be forgiven? Sounds too conditional for you to honestly say he died for all our sins. Seems like you're saying in effect that he died only for the sins of those who worship him.


You must have faith. You also must have perspective. How are they unproven assertions? Do you claim that the bible is a lie?

So, here is my take on it.

In the beginning, God created Adam and Eve. He intended for them to live in paradise forever, with no death and no suffering. He only asked of them that they not eat from the tree of knowledge. This is the start of free will. He asked them to make a choice, but he left the tree there to give them the option of making their own choice because worship with no will is pretty pointless, the Lord might as well of just created some robots. Of course, we know what choice they made.

Upon eating from the tree of knowledge they gained just that... knowledge and sin (death) the seperation of themselves from God. Prior to Jesus's crucifixion there was no redemption for your sins, because we as humans are eternally flawed. We fuck up. We are far from perfect. Alot of people dont accept christianity and say, Im not worthy of original sin. Ive done nothing wrong.. they cant acknowledge their humble nature and the fact that they are short of perfection. They also dont filter and decipher original sin for themselves.. and what the word sin really entails.

You said that it seems like he only died for the sins of those that worship him. That isnt true. Previously there was little hope for a flawed and imperfect man to ever be with God. All sins were created equally.. So wether you coveted or murdered.. it was equal. You fell short of the Glory of God. When he sent Jesus to die on the cross, he died for all men, his life was traded for their forgiveness all they had to do was have faith, to believe. Why would someone who didnt accept that be any different then those before? To whom much is given, much is required. Life is not a free ride and its a pretty small thing to ask that we just accept that we are flawed, that were arent perfect, that most of the time, we dont get it right. To think otherwise is to aspire to be God. To think that you are perfectly deserving, perfectly divine.

My .02


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OfflineJhadAgainstReality
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
    #1963002 - 09/29/03 02:35 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

this is the first board ive been on where christians and nonchristians can discuss stuff like this without it leading to a 9 page flaming session of back-and-forth bullshit.


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"Listen Bush, i dont have any weapons. are you listening asshole? i dont have any fucking weapons! whats your problem, you fucking prick? Do you, like, WANT to go to war or something?! hey! whats all that laughter? whats so fucking funny?! Bush? BUSH! *click* Hello? HELLO?"

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OfflineFunguy
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: JhadAgainstReality]
    #1963096 - 09/29/03 03:03 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I really feel that most of the people in this thread who are asking questions are really doing so on a quest for knowledge. It's not a "lets ask the Christian a question so we can laugh at them." To me, eternal salvation for others is an important thing to me (and to God), that is why I am posting. I do this out of love, not because I want to conform as many people as I can. I don't want people to go to Hell.
I'm sure this can remain an open, intellectual discussion without flames as long as people don't start making fun of each other. Many people have poked fun at Christianity, but have I ever made fun of what they believe?


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OTD UNDERDOGS

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
    #1963115 - 09/29/03 03:09 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

sorry, I was just pointing out loopholes that SOME christians use to justify acting unChristian

I have no problem with Christ, consider myself a follower of his teachings.

Its the other followers I'm worried about. I might not be able to "see into their hearts" to judge them, but I sure as hell can see the consequences of their actions on MY environment...

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OfflineFunguy
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1963139 - 09/29/03 03:15 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Well, truly they may not be Christians at all, though it is not my job to judge. Also, the term "Christian" is abused nowadays, meaning anything from someone who goes to church occasionally but doesn't believe much, to an actual Christian. If you're 99% sure you are a Christian, chances are that you are 100% lost.
I don't want to sound stubborn, but following Christ's teachings are not enough, you must follow Christ himself. He said, "I am THE Way, THE Truth, and THE Life, NO man comes to the Father except THROUGH me."
I still recommend skimming the site I have in my sig. Well, I have to go for now, my class is about to start. See you all later and God bless.


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OTD UNDERDOGS

Is attention your retarded heroin?

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
    #1963184 - 09/29/03 03:30 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I don't want to sound stubborn, but following Christ's teachings are not enough, you must follow Christ himself. He said, "I am THE Way, THE Truth, and THE Life, NO man comes to the Father except THROUGH me."




sounds like bigotry to me.

seems like this key tenet of christianty is in direct contradiction to the teachings of christ.

makes me wonder if Christ really said this, or if it was put in his mouth by the scholars who compiled/edited the NT. (these same scolars were under the employment of the same government that murdered christ 200 years earlier)

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1963241 - 09/29/03 03:44 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Your example of Adam and Eve is a perfect example of an unproven assertion.  In fact, science has established evolution as FACT.  So it is not only UNproven, but DISproven(unless you have some theological theory that accepts both creation AND evolution).  I accept that we are all flawed, but why must I also accept other unproven assertions(i.e. Mary being a virgin, Jesus being the Son of God, etc.)?  Can't I simply work to better myself through self-discipline?  Why must I believe what the Bible(which provides no proof that it is the Word of God) tells me, rather than looking at what is apparent(that I am flawed) and changing it myself?

Quote:

To think otherwise is to aspire to be God.



Let me let you in on a little secret...We ARE God. :wink:


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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InvisibleautomanM
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
    #1963271 - 09/29/03 03:52 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Funguy said:
Yes, I know what many of you think about the Bible, and it may have its inconsistencies, but I still believe that it is the infallible word of God.





how can the "infallible word of God" have "inconstistencies"?


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No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. ~ Niels Bohr

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OfflineDigs
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1963316 - 09/29/03 04:08 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
Quote:

I don't want to sound stubborn, but following Christ's teachings are not enough, you must follow Christ himself. He said, "I am THE Way, THE Truth, and THE Life, NO man comes to the Father except THROUGH me."




sounds like bigotry to me.

seems like this key tenet of christianty is in direct contradiction to the teachings of christ.

makes me wonder if Christ really said this, or if it was put in his mouth by the scholars who compiled/edited the NT.  (these same scolars were under the employment of the same government that murdered christ 200 years earlier) 




I can definatley see christ saying that, but I don't think he meant that no one comes to god except through the physical being Jesus Christ.
He meant no one sees god without feeling and relishing in the embodyment that Chrst teaches.  It sucks that so much of Chrst's word was written in parable etc, because it doesnt get into specifics, heh :smile: 

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Digs]
    #1963408 - 09/29/03 04:41 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

You must also remember that most (if not all, where is Marcos?) of the new testiment was written around 100 years after Jesus died. This would be like us today trying to write the teachings of somebody back in the late 1800's for the future to use. We are going to get some of it correct, but we are going to hose a lot of things.

I have actually sat and read the entire bible, cover to cover (not all at once). There is a lot of wisdom in the book, but there is a lot of bullshit as well (sorry, no offense intended). As far as the new testiment is concerned, I thought is was mostly BS until I read the Gospel of Thomas. After that, I reread the NT and could see that there are indeed many nuggets of wisdom, but in many cases they have been twisted to meet the needs of the time rather than allowed to express their true intent, at least as I interpret them. (Lots of ego here, on my part, be careful.)

Try reading between the lines and remember that a lot of what is concidered the "words of Jesus" may not be.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1963419 - 09/29/03 04:47 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Christ died because he would not cheapen himself for the benefit of others. He died because of sin, not for it. He allowed them to sacrafice him, to make a point, and because he was tired of living in such an ignorant world. He was just a messenger.. the foghorn 2,000 years before the awakening.


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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Shroomism]
    #1963520 - 09/29/03 05:22 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Christ was a friend who came to rescue the lost ones. He was the only one strong enough to succeed.


His mission is still under way.


He was multi-tasking.. To create the "footprints" you see and hear of now, and to propel Himself where he needed to go to find His lost friends.


Everything He did, was done with the end goal in mind..


That goal, has not yet been reached.


Judging by what is going on, nowadays, it becomes quite clear, that time is almost up.


When the time does come, a free willed decision will be offered. The final outcome will be directly related to the details of that decision.




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Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..


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OfflineFunguy
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Shroomism]
    #1963545 - 09/29/03 05:34 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

How can one follow Christ's teachings if you belief some of it was created by man? Do you know what is truth and what is bunk? How can one say he follows Christ without following ALL of what he said, including that he was God himself?
Inconsistencies, perhaps I worded that wrong. I meant apparent inconsistencies typos do happen, etc. But the Bible has remained pretty much the same over the years (see below website). I'm glad you all are not blindly following what I say, I want you to think for yourselves.
Not all Christians believe that God created only two people in the beginning. Theories run amok in theology just as much as science. "Adam" means "man," "Eve" means "mother of all." Perhaps God created just two beings, maybe he created hundreds.
I probably have just as many questions about the Bible as you do.


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OTD UNDERDOGS

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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1963557 - 09/29/03 05:40 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Heh.

So, we all evolved from some big bang theory and came from apes, eh?

Lots a people dont think science is all that scientific on that one and there are many flaws and loopholes in the evolution theory. If you'd like to read them, you may want to check out the current suit in the texas courts about how if we are going to teach evolution.. we atleast need to be honest and also teach the people about all the little nonexplanables that evolutionists are taking as "faith" in science.

I accept that we are all flawed, but why must I also accept other unproven assertions(i.e. Mary being a virgin, Jesus being the Son of God, etc.)?
Do you want a picture in some clinical obstetrics book of Mary's hymen?
See, the thing is that the only way we get forgiveness is to accept Jesus is God's son, hence the sacrifice.. just why should you get forgiveness if you think that you just deserve it? What have you done to deserve it?
I mean, you can believe what you want.. you MUST not accept any "assertions" that is the beauty of it. You can do and believe whatever you want. But you need to make sure that you are willing to deal with the eternal consequences of refusing to acknowledge God. If you honestly started seeking.. if you opened your heart, read the Bible, yourself.. then perhaps you could come to know God personally .. maybe you wouldnt. But I ask you, have you read the Bible, from beginning to end? The time is coming, as many other have stated... and its good that you are asking these questions.. just dont let your preconcieved notions or someone else's christianity turn you away from God. Not mine, not anyones.

Can't I simply work to better myself through self-discipline?
You can work to better yourself, we all should strive to do that.. and yes, we can better ourselves through self discipline. But we cant make ourselves perfect, we cant redeem our fall from grace.

Why must I believe what the Bible(which provides no proof that it is the Word of God) tells me, rather than looking at what is apparent(that I am flawed) and changing it myself?
What kind of proof are you looking for, friend? I mean, the bible was indeed written by real people whose real lives can be traced. It didnt just appear in a poof of smoke from the air. God let his word come through the mouths of men for people like you. For questions like that.

And I just dont understand.. can you please tell me just what in the bible doesnt reconcile with your thought of God? What in the Bible is so bad and is so far from the word of any possible God? You just dont agree with the thought of Jesus beging sent to die for our sins? Or do you not believe in God, at all?

You say, we are God. Yes, on a way we are all parts of God.. But we are NOT GOD. God is love and darling, you sure arent completely full of love, either am I.





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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Seuss]
    #1963565 - 09/29/03 05:43 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

The Gospel of THOMAS?

So, you enjoy that last little nugget of wisdom concerning women?  How could the Gospel of Thomas be accurate if it falls short of even Genesis?

Markos must have gotten to you :smile:



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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1963627 - 09/29/03 06:04 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

> we at least need to be honest and also teach the people about all the little nonexplanables that evolutionists are taking as "faith" in science.

I have never heard of evolution taught in school as anything but a theory. I have never once in my life heard the term, "Law of Evolution" (until now *shiver*). It has always been, "Theory of Evolution". In science a theory is an unproven idea, nothing more.

Feel free to bash evolutionists all you want, but please don't bash science simply because evolutionists are misusing terminology.

I personally beleive that they should teach kids the theory of evolution along side the theory of creation along with anything else the kids can dream up. Of course, this would be teaching children to begin thinking on their own, and we can't have that.

> the only way we get forgiveness is to accept Jesus is God's son

This is the part that I have trouble with. My relationship is with the almighty directly... me and "", no intermidate, no Jesus, no Mary, nothing except faith. I have no need to build huge cathedrals to show my faith. I don't need to wear symbols to remind me of my debt for life. I don't need to pay some guy to stand up and tell me how to act. I don't need some book telling me how people in the past think I should behave. All I need is the blessing that I have been given and the simple path I have been shown to follow.


> God is love and darling

God is also hate and vengence. ... and they shall know that I am the lord, when I lay my vengeance upon them.

> you sure arent completely full of love, either am I

Of course you are! Open your eyes and see.

(I don't mean this post to be a flame. I sometimes push in an unexpected direction to try and get people to think about things in a new light. I sometimes push in a direction that I myself don't believe.)


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Just another spore in the wind.

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OfflineTwirling
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1963635 - 09/29/03 06:10 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Seems like this thread has become more about personal interptations of who or what Christ was. Not that its a bad thing at all, but its funny how many statements are made about a figure like Christ.

Personally, I think Christ-figures recreate the desire to have a security of a choosen path, simular to trying to please a parent (sort of the Freudian school of thought). Besides which, if you look at this thread, it's easy to see how quickly interruptations of religion can quickly differ from what was originally said. It's been over 2000 years since Christ died, and to consider how many times the meaning, the origin, the moral, the details, and the truth has been reinterrupted, it's hard to believe that there could be a "right" way to believe or live. Samething with any religion. They are just interruptations of the unknown, and if you can imagine how hard it is to put into words the awe a person feels from some the emotions that are humanly possible, you can imagine how little "absolute" terroritory religion has covered. I personally believe that the more we try to take in and accept, the more we grow (and once again, this is an interruptation).


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The very nature of experience is ineffable; it transcends cognitive thought and intellectualized analysis. To be without experience is to be without an emotional knowledge of what the experience translates into. The desire for the understanding of what life is made of is the motivation that drives us all. Without it, in fear of the experiences what life can hold is among the greatest contradictions; to live in fear of death while not being alive.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Seuss]
    #1963640 - 09/29/03 06:11 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

"I'm having trouble figuring out exactly what Christians mean when they say Christ died for our sins. So does that mean all our sins are forgiven? If that's the case, then why would anyone not go to heaven?"


This is a good point. Christ's atoning blood and perfect obedience guarantees and demands salvation for each person He atoned for. If the atonement was for each and every person that ever lived, then no one could be sent to hell since justice is was fully satisfied.

Notice how Jesus bares the sin of many, not every single person who ever lived.

Isiaih 53:11-12 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many;

Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

John 10:14-15 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Who then are "the many"? Who are "the sheep" that He lays down His life for? Not everyone since Jesus tells the people questioning Him:

John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Notice the wording, they believe not because they ARE NOT of His sheep. He did not say because you don't believe you are not my sheep.

The Father has given the sheep to Him from eternity past.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

This truth is all over the Word, that those that inherit eternal life were chosen.

Ephesians 1:4-6 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Notice the "us" and the "we" applies only to the believers that he was writing to. It states the cause of the predestination is "the good pleasure of His will" not the will of man.

And again:

2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

"according to his own purpose and grace", and not men's wills.

The choosing of some to eternal life is the core of true grace, grace not contingent on human merits such as "foreseen faith", repentance, ect.. Any "gospel" that does not understand this grace is a false gospel that can not save. Faith, repentance, ect. are evidences of the grace given, never causes of obtaining grace.

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OfflineZahid
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: fivepointer]
    #1963722 - 09/29/03 06:40 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

One more post fivepointer and you can give out ratings. :smile: 


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1963753 - 09/29/03 06:51 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

No silly. You have to repent, have an inner change of heart (metanoia), and ask for the forgiveness that is freely offered. An evil, isolated, egocentric human existence needs to perish so that Christ can be 'born-again' in the heart of the new believer. Evil, ignorant a**holes do not enter into GOD. GOD is Love, and only to the extent that we become transformed into Love ourselves, do we join with GOD. To the extent that we remain identified with wrath - to Wrath do we go.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1963793 - 09/29/03 07:04 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

"The Way," which IS Christ, is also "The Way" which exists in other faiths. In Taoism, the Tao means "The Way." If you are thinking about a bearded 1st century carpenter-rabbi, then we are all in trouble because He hasn't been giving sermons of late. Christ is the Logos - the Nature of GOD that 'interfaces' with human beinghood. GOD exists in other traditions - where does GOD not exist? To maintain that ONLY my tradition is salvific, and all others go directly to Hell, is a complete misunderstanding of the universality of Christ's message. 'Those who aren't against us, are for us.' Only ignorant, bigoted, literal-minded parrots of the various world religions - otherwise known as fanatics/fundamentalists, maintain this utterly stupid stance. A Holy [wo]man in any faith, if they are Holy, are so, because of the ONE GOD Who imparts a Holy Spirit [Consciousness] to that being. Holiness comes from GOD, not from humanity. It is the mark of a mature Christian, or Muslim, or Jew or whomever to Realize that the universal TRUTH is embodied in the individualities of different traditions. All others are still children in matters spiritual who proclaim, sometimes violently, that 'My GOD is better than your GOD.' GOD, people is ONE. "There is no GOD, but GOD." "Hear O Israel, the LORD thy GOD, the LORD is ONE."


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1963804 - 09/29/03 07:06 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Christ died because he was a terrorist in the arab state :wink: 


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"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks

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InvisiblePIMPtheSYSTEM
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
    #1963843 - 09/29/03 07:21 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Christianity is stupid


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Seuss]
    #1963915 - 09/29/03 07:42 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Suess,

silversoul called it a FACT (all caps nonetheless) my response was to him.

Im not bashing evolutionists. But if people wish to say something is a fact that is a Theory (as you said) Ill let them know there are many holes in their facts.

This is the part that I have trouble with. My relationship is with the almighty directly... me and "", no intermidate, no Jesus, no Mary, nothing except faith. I have no need to build huge cathedrals to show my faith. I don't need to wear symbols to remind me of my debt for life. I don't need to pay some guy to stand up and tell me how to act. I don't need some book telling me how people in the past think I should behave. All I need is the blessing that I have been given and the simple path I have been shown to follow.

And Im not saying that what you said isnt enough. Im not judging you. But with the question that was asked. I was answering it. You can have your beliefs, Im glad that you have questioned and found your answers. Im just giving my opinion and what I honestly feel the Lord has led me to in MY life. Your mileage my vary.

Christians need pay no money or have no church intermediate.. but Jesus is not an intermediate. He is the way and the life... And the Bible is the word of God. You dont have to accept that. It's your perogative. But again, it has spoke to me in my life. With the Lord, my life has changed in ways I never thought possible. When something effects you that profoundly because you open your heart to it.. you cannot help but listen.

God is also hate and vengence. ... and they shall know that I am the lord, when I lay my vengeance upon them.

OT. My God is love, you can pull whatever isolated scripture out of the old testament that you wish to. Just try not to ignore the thousands of others.

Of course you are! Open your eyes and see.
I understand the point you are trying to make.. but, Im not. Im full of many things, but I fall way short of perfect love. I fall way short of good sometimes. In acknowledging that, I can strive to love more.. I can continuously open up my heart. But I will not settle, I will not fall victim to pride. Pride is the worst of all sins.





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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Twirling]
    #1963928 - 09/29/03 07:46 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Spirituality is all about personal opinions.

Comprehension of what you read, wether the Bible or a tom clancy novel is all about personal experiences and opinions. You cannot empirically answer every question under the sun. You say that people's opinion differs from what was originally said. But obviously it differs from your opinion of what was said.. people have their beliefs for a reason.

All I can give you is my opinion. My experience. To try to claim it as fact would be nothing but a lie.


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InvisiblePapaverS
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1963945 - 09/29/03 07:50 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
If that's the case, then why would anyone not go to heaven? 




Because we have freedom of choice. That's the way God wanted it. It's a pretty nice set-up, actually. It's like when your parents go away for vacation, and they leave you all alone in their big house -- you can throw really wild parties, but then you have to clean up afterwards before they get home...

PS: Christ didn't die for my sins. He made me an offer once, but I told him, I was cool with them -- they weren't such a big burden, after all... :wink:


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Anonymous

Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Papaver]
    #1964071 - 09/29/03 08:32 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Why was it a big deal that Christ died for our sins?

It wouldn't be so bad hanging from a cross until I die if I know for a fact that my dad is God and I will spend eternity in heaven... I mean, I'm thoroughly unimpressed.

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InvisibleautomanM
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: ]
    #1964124 - 09/29/03 08:54 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

we dont actually have the "free will" to chose what is going to happen to us (whether we go to the christain heaven or hell). if god, as most christains contend, knows everything that has happened and everything that will happen, then he knows what choices we are going to mke....even before we make them. so, the day we are sent to earth as newborns, he knows if we are going to hell. why would god do that? to me, it doesnt make any sense.


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No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. ~ Niels Bohr

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1964159 - 09/29/03 09:06 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

So, we all evolved from some big bang theory and came from apes, eh?

Lots a people dont think science is all that scientific on that one and there are many flaws and loopholes in the evolution theory. If you'd like to read them, you may want to check out the current suit in the texas courts about how if we are going to teach evolution.. we atleast need to be honest and also teach the people about all the little nonexplanables that evolutionists are taking as "faith" in science.



The Big Bang theory is completely separate from evolution. By the way, people keep saying "Theory of Evolution" but it's actually "Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection," aka Darwinism. So yes, Darwinism is still theory, but evolution is an observed fact. That's right, scientists have actually observed microscopic bacteria evolving. Of course, evolution from our ape-like ancestors to modern man took considerably longer,(6 million years) and therefore would be impossible to observe. If you'd like to learn more about evolution, check out this site.

Quote:

But I ask you, have you read the Bible, from beginning to end? The time is coming, as many other have stated... and its good that you are asking these questions.. just dont let your preconcieved notions or someone else's christianity turn you away from God. Not mine, not anyones.



I have read most of the Bible, with the exception of the Book of Revelation and a few of the prophetic books of the Old Testament. I don't know it inside and out, but from what I've read, I found it to be full of hate, intolerance, contradiction, and superstition. This is also after 4 years of Catholic High School.

Quote:

You can work to better yourself, we all should strive to do that.. and yes, we can better ourselves through self discipline. But we cant make ourselves perfect, we cant redeem our fall from grace.



Why must we all be perfect? The little imperfections of life are what make it all the more worth living.

Quote:

What kind of proof are you looking for, friend? I mean, the bible was indeed written by real people whose real lives can be traced. It didnt just appear in a poof of smoke from the air. God let his word come through the mouths of men for people like you. For questions like that.



But why the Bible and not the Koran, or some other sacred text? Why should I believe one when it says it is divinely inspired, but not the other?

Quote:

And I just dont understand.. can you please tell me just what in the bible doesnt reconcile with your thought of God? What in the Bible is so bad and is so far from the word of any possible God? You just dont agree with the thought of Jesus beging sent to die for our sins? Or do you not believe in God, at all?



I already explained my beef with the Bible, but it's about it being bad. It's about how reliable it is. Why did God give me give me a choice between heaven and hell, without providing any credible proof of the source? You're asking me to blindly believe in something without any proof because I'll supposedly go to Hell if I don't. Well I refuse to worship any God that would punish critical thinking and reason. If that means burning in the Lake of Fire, then so be it. I do not wish to be with an asshole God like that.

Quote:

You say, we are God. Yes, on a way we are all parts of God.. But we are NOT GOD. God is love and darling, you sure arent completely full of love, either am I.



God is infinite, so therefore there cannot be anything that is not God. Therefore everthing is God, and we are all one.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Anonymous

Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1964202 - 09/29/03 09:23 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Lots a people dont think science is all that scientific on that one and there are many flaws and loopholes in the evolution theory. If you'd like to read them, you may want to check out the current suit in the texas courts about how if we are going to teach evolution.. we atleast need to be honest and also teach the people about all the little nonexplanables that evolutionists are taking as "faith" in science.

what are these nonexplanables? the entire field of biology makes sense only through evolution, nothing else. from the beginning of the earth and the formation of cell-like aggregates, to the formation of cells, dna, and "survival of the fitest", biology can explain to great detail the existence of life on this planet. i find hard to believe you can discredit the wealth of scientific evidence that is currently in front of our faces. please reference to me these "faith" nonexplanables as i will happily debate them.

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
    #1964235 - 09/29/03 09:38 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

It sounds like you've done to Christian theology what Jews did to Jewish theology after Abraham. You've rendered the freedom of Spirit into laws and doctrines to be followed mechanically. Moreover, like most people, you simply have accepted the canon as it is presented to posterity by Irenaeus and the other Church Fathers, and by Constantine the Emperor. And, like most people, you might rationalize that since GOD is in control, it has all been ordained by GOD Himself in the multiple forms that we havein English alone. Not to pick on you personally, but rather, the wholesale buying into what has been added to by the discovery of the Gospel of Mary Magdalen in 1896, and the Nag Hammadi library in 1945, and other writings - some bogus, some priceless. Do not allow external authority to determine for you what is right and true. These are men, not gods who made these decisions. Be informed by GOD's spirit of discernment.

Salvation history continues people. The question that started this thread pertains to the theology of the 'vicarious sacrifice,' which Paul championed. The Gospel of Thomas suggests an entirely different interpretation of Jesus the Christ. The canon is NOT infallible in any sense of the meaning. Paul himself was dead wrong about the immanent historical return of Jesus, coming in clouds of glory. Paul's very understanding of these things may have been completely flawed, which is why Christianity was able to become misused as a banner for conquest (megalomania), inquisition (sadism), persecution, witch hunt (more misogyny), and incredible greed (Vatican treasure for example).


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
    #1965057 - 09/30/03 02:37 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Funguy said:
Before Christ came along, the Jewish people had to have an atonement sacrifice once a year to cleanse the people of the sins for that year. 




They HAD to? Does sacrificing goats really make you free from your sins? Is there really someone out there that holds our sins agansit us until we repent and ask forgiveness? I mean, it is one thing to recoginze how our actions end up effecting the world around us, but to believe that we will go to Hell because we don't ask forgiveness is foolish.

So, after Christ died, did the Jewish people stop sacrificing, even though they didn't actually believe that Christ was the Son of God and that they would no longer have to make their own sacrifices?




Quote:


SilverSoul7, Christ was basically God in the flesh.  You cannot accept that Christ died for your sins and then denouce the Christian faith. 




We are all God in the flesh. Especially me. :grin:
Peace.


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:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: fivepointer]
    #1965062 - 09/30/03 02:42 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Beware of those who cite Scriptures to prove a point... they just might not think for themselves. :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineDankBluntZ
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1965177 - 09/30/03 05:00 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Do not allow external authority to determine for you what is right and true. These are men, not gods who made these decisions. 




Isn't that what believing in religion is all about? Im going to listen to your reason and not believe these external authorities. Your entire religion is based on external authorities. External authorities that lived in a time when religion was used to lull the masses into compliance. Sorry I think i'll leave you to the buying of  "wholesale" reproduced religions.




ps- dont take this offensively I am typing this with many hours of sleep deprivation  :oogle: 

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OfflineZahid
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: DankBluntZ]
    #1965422 - 09/30/03 08:39 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

These 'external authorities' are more or less designed for the not-so-intuitive masses.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1965466 - 09/30/03 08:54 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Evolving from apes would not take 6 billion years.. if we had help from an external source.. I don't know..say.... genetic engineering.


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Anonymous

Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Shroomism]
    #1965479 - 09/30/03 09:00 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Evolving from apes would not take 6 billion years

the earth is only six billion years old, so it took far less than that to evolve from apes. what makes you think that it couldn't happen in any given time-span, lets say 90,000,000 years. you can honestly say that you conceive that number and have such a firm grasp on evolution as to say it couldn't happen in that time frame??


musta been the aliens!!!  :nut:
 

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OfflineHidingInPlainSight
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
    #1965526 - 09/30/03 09:40 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Funguy has it right.  :smile: 

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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: HidingInPlainSight]
    #1965665 - 09/30/03 10:45 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

It sounds like you've done to Christian theology what Jews did to Jewish theology after Abraham. You've rendered the freedom of Spirit into laws and doctrines to be followed mechanically. Moreover, like most people, you simply have accepted the canon as it is presented to posterity by Irenaeus and the other Church Fathers, and by Constantine the Emperor. And, like most people, you might rationalize that since GOD is in control, it has all been ordained by GOD Himself in the multiple forms that we havein English alone. Not to pick on you personally, but rather, the wholesale buying into what has been added to by the discovery of the Gospel of Mary Magdalen in 1896, and the Nag Hammadi library in 1945, and other writings - some bogus, some priceless. Do not allow external authority to determine for you what is right and true. These are men, not gods who made these decisions. Be informed by GOD's spirit of discernment.




that was a really groovy post Markos

5 shrooms for you!

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OfflineFunguy
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1965792 - 09/30/03 11:26 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

Funguy said:
Before Christ came along, the Jewish people had to have an atonement sacrifice once a year to cleanse the people of the sins for that year.




They HAD to? Does sacrificing goats really make you free from your sins? Is there really someone out there that holds our sins agansit us until we repent and ask forgiveness? I mean, it is one thing to recoginze how our actions end up effecting the world around us, but to believe that we will go to Hell because we don't ask forgiveness is foolish.

So, after Christ died, did the Jewish people stop sacrificing, even though they didn't actually believe that Christ was the Son of God and that they would no longer have to make their own sacrifices?




Listen to this. The wages of sin is death. Christ has been shown throughout the OT. Spreading the lamb's blood on the door so the Angel of Death would pass. The bronze serpent, etc.
Since sin=death, a blood offering must be given. A perfect ram, or bull must be killed in order to shed the sins (there were other sacrifices as well).
God sent Christ to be THE sacrifice, so that we do not have to keep every single law (for if you break one, you break them all). After Jesus committed his spirit to the Lord, the Veil of the Holy of Holies in the temple was ripped from the top to the bottom. Only the highest priest could enter after his sins were cleasned. Even then, he had a rope tied around his waist in case he died.
The tearing of the Veil signified that now ANYBODY can go to God through Christ. That is why the Jewish people do not sacrifice any more.
The point I'm trying to make is that Heaven, Nirvana, etc. is a FREE GIFT to anybody who believes that Christ died for their sins. You don't have to shun away from most desires, eat any special food, and hold up any spiritual laws. "Everything is permissible but not everything is beneficial." No grueling work is involved, just believe.
Don't expect to instantly understand the whole Bible. I recommend starting with John, then the other books of the NT. Nobody can fully understand what God is thinking. But throughout the Bible, God is unconditionally loving, holy, perfect. God does not have a vengeful, truly wrathful, or evil side. Sodom, Gomorrah, and other cities, people, etc that were destroyed came from God's Holy judgement. If you noticed, most of the time these people had PLENTY of time to repent, but never did. Time is running out.


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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
    #1965899 - 09/30/03 12:01 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

The wages of sin is death? Then why do good people die? Personally, I don't plan on living forever anyway.


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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1965937 - 09/30/03 12:16 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

When God first created Adam and Eve, they were supposed to live forever, both physically and spiritually.  When they ate of the Fruit of the Tree of the Knowlege of Good and Evil, they died spiritually.  They also died physically, but not right away.  Christ came that we could live forever spiritually, and just wait until the New Jerusalem comes!  Our bodies are temporary, our souls are forever.  The Lake of Fire was specifically created for Satan and his minions, not us.  Satan knows his fate, and is trying to take as many people as he can.  Everybody will be judged based on what they KNOW.  I cannot say what God will do with someone who never heard of Christ, because I am not God. 
I'm not forcing anybody to convert to Christianity.  I am simply stating my beliefs in hoping that whoever reads them will seriously take to heart what I am saying.  I don't reply to these post to show how smart I am, or to make fun of those who disagree with me.  I post because I truly care where you will be in the afterlife for eternity.  Just believe. :heart:


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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
    #1965944 - 09/30/03 12:20 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I communicate with what everyone calls "god" on my own, 1on1, with no middle man, institution or book of truth leading me there.

In my humble opinion, this is the best way to know the great spirit of which we are all a part. Religion seems to only confuse things, divide people and nations, create mass conflict.

If only we could all just stop looking for proof, references, guidebooks, teachers, etc and just take a look around. Look at the world, the universe, people, and inside yourself. You'll realize that this "god" you seek is everywhere, and you don't have to do any dances or jump through any hoops to be forgiven, or receive your ticket to eternal paradise.

I don't know about all of you, but the god I know forgives everything instantly, no matter who you are or what you've done. That's the thing about unconditional love... It's UN-conditional!

It's all so much simpler and easier than some of you believe.

I live by a simple way:

1) Don't hurt anybody
2) Grow by experiencing life
3) Practice compassion

I'm sure Jesus would agree. I for one do not need a book of a thousand pages to learn what is known in my soul. You can find everything inside yourself. I reccomend using extreme caution when deciding to have faith in external sources of supposed truth pertaining to the greatest questions of life.

Beware alterior motives in the most trusted of places.


--------------------
Here we are, in these bodies, on this planet in an endless universe. This is not the extent of who we are... merely an extension of who we really are.

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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
    #1965948 - 09/30/03 12:22 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

> Everybody will be judged based on what they KNOW.

Very good, because I know absolutely nothing. I have a lot of sneaking suspisions, but no facts at all. (no sarcasim here.... simple truth)


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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
    #1965993 - 09/30/03 12:35 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Funguy said:
When God first created Adam and Eve, they were supposed to live forever, both physically and spiritually.





Now, Adam and Eve, then... they were humans? Now... hhm.... they were the first humans, right? Hmm.... Were they basically cavemen? At what point during our evolution from monkeys did God then create two of us and mean for them to live forever, both physically and spiritually?

Quote:


When they ate of the Fruit of the Tree of the Knowlege of Good and Evil, they died spiritually. They also died physically, but not right away.




HHmm... blind ignorance... or awareness... Hhhm..... I don't consider living under the protection of someone in some ignorant paradise as the pinnacle of spirituality...

Quote:


Christ came that we could live forever spiritually, and just wait until the New Jerusalem comes! Our bodies are temporary, our souls are forever. The Lake of Fire was specifically created for Satan and his minions, not us. Satan knows his fate, and is trying to take as many people as he can. Everybody will be judged based on what they KNOW. I cannot say what God will do with someone who never heard of Christ, because I am not God.




Okay, yes, our bodies are temporary, and the awareness that makes us conscious is eternal. A Lake of Fire? Satan? Some being purposely trying to damn us all? Hhm..... I can't believe we will be judged by some being for things we did without knowing the purpose of our stay here or what it is exactly that we are suspossed to work towards.




Quote:


Just believe.





I don't just believe in something that I have no way of knowing anything. Blindly accepting something is the opposite of awareness. Awareness is the heart of spirituality. I pursue spirituality with an open mind and nothing to blind my observing perspective.
Peace.


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Like being here
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
    #1966048 - 09/30/03 12:57 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

That's a good foundation, funguy. But there's a latter-day chapter that must be included. In the early 1800s a young man named Joseph Smith was very confused about which church to join. This was a time of intense religious revivalism in upstate New York.

Smith came across a verse in James (1:5) which said, "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, who giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not." So Smith decided to take James' advice. One early morning, he went into a forest near his family farm and prayed to God. He was visited by God the Father and his son, Jesus Christ.

Smith was told that all the Churches were mixtures of some Gospel truths in some inaccuracies, i.e. that none of them contained the fullness of His Gospel, and that through Smith God would restore His Gospel, after nearly 2,000 years of apostacy.

This He did, and Smith, as the first modern prophet of God, established the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and translated an ancient record of members of the House of Israel who had come to the Americas 500 years b.c. That translation is the Book of Mormon, which like the Bible is a testament of Jesus Christ.

Since then, God has continued to guide his children through prophets and twelve apostles in His church. Today the prophet of God is Gordon B. Hinckley. Pretty good news for those who truly want to return to their Father in Heaven.

hongomon

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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: hongomon]
    #1966101 - 09/30/03 01:11 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Here's what I am going to do, people:

I am going to go out into the woods, in seclusion. I am then going to write a bunch of shit that I made up. I will claim that God visited me and that what I have written is the testament of God, given to me.

I will then get some drunken outcasts to follow me, and we will get chased out by everyone else and go out to live in the desert, and then we will breed with our multiple wives and then spread the message.

The sad thing is, after time passes, everyone will take what I wrote as the actual word of God, and will unquestionably believe in it, and no one will ever know the difference! See how completely easy it is?!
Peace.



--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1966142 - 09/30/03 01:21 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

yeah, that's why the mormon religion has taken over christianity.. eh?

Only the true word could last 2000 years. The rest are just playa hatas.

Jesus is MY homeboy.


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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1966151 - 09/30/03 01:23 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

PsiloKitten said:
Only the true word could last 2000 years.




Since when does how long something lasts validate it as being true?
Peace.


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1966175 - 09/30/03 01:29 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Hey, only the one true word could start all those crusades, witchhunts, the Inquisition, abortion clinic bombings, imperialism, and all that other fun stuff, right? BTW, Psilokitten, are you Catholic? Cuz otherwise I don't think you could really say your religion is 2000 years old. Actually, Catholics can't rightly claim this either. Christianity in its original form has long since died out.


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1966207 - 09/30/03 01:40 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Hey, only the one true word could start all those crusades, witchhunts, the Inquisition, abortion clinic bombings, imperialism, and all that other fun stuff, right?




That's exactly it. After the true Christians were persecuted into extinction and the Roman empire took on the dogma, the world lapsed into an apostacy that lasted nearly 2,000 years. Then by the faith of Brother Joseph, God restored the fullness of His Gospel and His priesthood in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Like Funguy said, we all need to accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior. We also need to come unto baptism, even as Jesus did, and receive other ordinances by those who have the authority to carry them out--holders of God's priesthood. God's priesthood is found only in his ONE TRUE CHURCH, THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS.

you can contact them at www.lds.org and they will be glad to send representatives to you.

hongomon

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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: hongomon]
    #1966211 - 09/30/03 01:42 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

If the one people of the "One True Church" elected Orin Hatch to the Senate, then frankly, I'm unimpressed.


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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: hongomon]
    #1966214 - 09/30/03 01:42 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Phh.. religious dogma.. how does it feel to have been brainwashed? No, I am like totally serious here.

I mean, I respect people's beliefs that they have and everything, but that is like pure brainwashing.

The only thing that I need to do is to keep breathing. Everything else is irrelevant.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1966218 - 09/30/03 01:44 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Exactly! Whether some guy named Jesus died for our sins 2000 years ago is irrelevant. All that is real is this moment, here and now.


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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1966223 - 09/30/03 01:45 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Exactly!  Whether some guy named Jesus died for our sins 2000 years ago is irrelevant.  All that is real is this moment, here and now. 




Indeed. :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: ]
    #1966240 - 09/30/03 01:48 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Looner:
Go read Behe, Parker, Denton, Baumgarden, Gish.... Then you can come back and debate the points. These points are easily found. Im not engaging in some 10 page long fact finding mission that you put no effort into and discredit, with a closed mind and heart.

That should keep you busy for awhile.

Silversoul,
Catholic school will do it. After I got out of there and they threw our family out of their little fake party I hated God for 12 years. I mean, hated.. said things like you.. I didnt want any part of some asshole God who judged me like that. I wasnt buying into original sin or any of that "crap". I argued with my fiancee.. who is a pastor's son constantly and told him he was a sheep.. he lived in a bubble.. he needed to wake up. I was generally mean and no matter what he told me, my heart and mind was closed from the experiences I had with catholicism. It let me sink into absolution over the bad things I had done.. and I'd done some pretty shitty things, to believe there was no christian God was easier. My god was unconditionally loving.. I couldnt fall short of it's grace.. so through buddhism and wicca and bahai.. I tried to find the one that fit.. the one that I could feel in my life. To believe that this was the only life was easier, or hell.. that we got reincarnated if we fucked up and got many chances, that was a nice thought too. Nothing mattered. I didnt have to feel guilt or remorse, hell, I could do whatever I wanted.. who was someone to label me bad or evil? Then, about a year ago I started to read the Bible for myself. And I saw a message of love and redemption.. a message of hope.. not that fear and other crap that I had been taught. I am continually blessed because the Lord works in my life everyday, prayer after prayer has been answered now that I came to know him.
In answer to your original question... out of the mouth of God's word, not mine.. you should read Ephesians in its entirety.

In closing Timothy 6:20, from your response, you didnt want any answers to your questions.. you simply wanted to fight about your opinion.


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1966439 - 09/30/03 02:53 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
If the one people of the "One True Church" elected Orin Hatch to the Senate, then frankly, I'm unimpressed. 




Orin Hatch is God's chosen senator.

haha, okay, sorry guys, I feel bad for baiting you.  I repent.  I don't believe all of that.  I traded in Joseph Smith for Joseph Campbell.  But it is an accurate overview of the Mormon church--it's just what a sincere Mormon would say--maybe that's what makes it funny to me.  I failed to mention that God, Elohim, is said to live on a planet called Kolob.

But I'm revealing too much.  Milk before meat, they say. :smirk:  The point I was trying to make is that something so clearly absurd to an outsider, like you guys, is "the truth" to some, but not all, insiders, like some of my family and friends.  Fireworks God, "brainwashing" is a broad term, but I suppose the idea of having certain assumptions presented as if true, and repeated over and over again on a daily basis, could be considered "brainwashing."  Of course, that's pretty much what happens in our culture.

I was hoping to use this as an example of an exclusive, believe-this-or-be-damned doctrine that even the other Christians here might agree is questionable (or even absurd).  I'd like to know what makes Christianity, in any of its exclusive, believe-this-or-be-damned forms, any different.  Or more specifically, how we are to imagine a God who is expecting that of us.  Actually I wouldn't--I've already heard the answers and they can't escape circularity. 

MarkostheGnostic's concept of "the Way" -- greater than religion and containing  them, not the other way around, makes more sense in my mind.  But who knows?  Maybe God really is an irrational and jealous creature and a lot of us are fucked... :eek:

peace, the moment, breathe (and get some food now and then)
hongomon 

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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: hongomon]
    #1966455 - 09/30/03 02:59 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Oh, I forgot to mention that everything I say about things of a theistic or deistic nature are, of course, my own opinions, and if I make any statements that appear as assertions of universal truths, point them out and give me shit for them. I'm trying to clear those out of my thought processes...it's hard.

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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: hongomon]
    #1966544 - 09/30/03 03:23 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

the first mormon temple is right near here, over in kirtland, OH...
joseph smith was lynched in illinois by an angry mob who didn't like his flavor of theology... (some of which was prolly derived from an early 18th century novel about lost tribes in north america, and some of which was prolly from a profound misreading of egyptian heiroglyphs (the rosetta stone hadn't yet been decoded, heh...)


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OfflineFunguy
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1966610 - 09/30/03 03:47 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Hey, only the one true word could start all those crusades, witchhunts, the Inquisition, abortion clinic bombings, imperialism, and all that other fun stuff, right? BTW, Psilokitten, are you Catholic? Cuz otherwise I don't think you could really say your religion is 2000 years old. Actually, Catholics can't rightly claim this either. Christianity in its original form has long since died out.




Oh, let us not forget the millions of innocent people that have been murdered by atheists! Pol Pot killed over 1.7 million people in the 1970's. Joseph Stalin killed over 20 million Soviet citizens between 1929 and 1939. Mao Tse-tung killed almost over 62 MILLION people in the 1930's and 40's. Should we blame atheism for the actions of some of its followers? Should we blame Christianity for the actions of some of its followers?


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1966637 - 09/30/03 03:57 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Hey, only the one true word could start all those crusades, witchhunts, the Inquisition, abortion clinic bombings, imperialism, and all that other fun stuff, right?

People started those things... Not God. Ive said it over and over that people are flawed and falible. God never said to kill in his name, so you cant really blame the Bible or christians for that. You can blame the people who did it all you want. God gave ten simple commandments and one of them was not to go out and murder people.. period.

BTW, Psilokitten, are you Catholic?
Nope, not anymore.

Cuz otherwise I don't think you could really say your religion is 2000 years old.
Christ died for our sins a little less then 2000 years ago, Many books of the Bible were also recorded within 50 years of that time. How is my religion not *almost* 2000 years old when my religion stems on the coming of Jesus?

Christianity in its original form has long since died out.
How's that? *looks in the mirror and finds herself to be quite alive-- checks to make sure she added nor subtracted nothing to/from the bible...nope, sure didnt*





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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
    #1966666 - 09/30/03 04:10 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Funguy said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Hey, only the one true word could start all those crusades, witchhunts, the Inquisition, abortion clinic bombings, imperialism, and all that other fun stuff, right? BTW, Psilokitten, are you Catholic? Cuz otherwise I don't think you could really say your religion is 2000 years old. Actually, Catholics can't rightly claim this either. Christianity in its original form has long since died out.




Oh, let us not forget the millions of innocent people that have been murdered by atheists! Pol Pot killed over 1.7 million people in the 1970's. Joseph Stalin killed over 20 million Soviet citizens between 1929 and 1939. Mao Tse-tung killed almost over 62 MILLION people in the 1930's and 40's. Should we blame atheism for the actions of some of its followers? Should we blame Christianity for the actions of some of its followers?



Apples and oranges, my friend. No atheists are claiming to preach the one true word of God(by definition, they can't). They only preach skepticism. I defy you to find one evil deed that was done in the name of atheism. I rest my case.


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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1966693 - 09/30/03 04:21 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

PsiloKitten said:
Hey, only the one true word could start all those crusades, witchhunts, the Inquisition, abortion clinic bombings, imperialism, and all that other fun stuff, right?

People started those things... Not God. Ive said it over and over that people are flawed and falible. God never said to kill in his name, so you cant really blame the Bible or christians for that. You can blame the people who did it all you want. God gave ten simple commandments and one of them was not to go out and murder people.. period.



My point was about how you were saying something to the effect that Christianity has survived for 2000 years because it is the one true word of God. I was pointing out that those 2000 years are marked by horrible acts of persecution being carried out in the name of the so-called true word of God.

Quote:

BTW, Psilokitten, are you Catholic?
Nope, not anymore.

Cuz otherwise I don't think you could really say your religion is 2000 years old.
Christ died for our sins a little less then 2000 years ago, Many books of the Bible were also recorded within 50 years of that time. How is my religion not *almost* 2000 years old when my religion stems on the coming of Jesus?



Because your religion is based on writings that didn't exist in the early Christian church, written by men who had never met Jesus, which didn't become an official part of Christianity until the Nicene Council, which was, I believe, AT LEAST 200 years after Christ had died.

Quote:

Christianity in its original form has long since died out.
How's that? *looks in the mirror and finds herself to be quite alive-- checks to make sure she added nor subtracted nothing to/from the bible...nope, sure didnt*



Have you read the Gospel of Thomas, or Mary Magdelene, or any other of the apocryphal writings? You assume that early Christianity went by the same four Gospels which you've read, when in reality it was FAR more diverse than that.


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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1966862 - 09/30/03 05:14 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Christ didn't die for our sins.... He died because people got too scared of his gaining influence.. Kinda like Ghandi


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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1966933 - 09/30/03 05:36 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Apples and oranges, my friend. No atheists are claiming to preach the one true word of God(by definition, they can't). They only preach skepticism. I defy you to find one evil deed that was done in the name of atheism. I rest my case.




Racism. Racism was coined only in the last couple of centuries. Because of evolution, white men though black people were inferior.

Galatians 5:22-23, "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfullness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law."
This is how you can tell a true Christian from a person who claims to be a Christian. I am not one to judge who is truly Christian or not, God is. However, many Christians are struggling in their walk, and you should not judge a religion just by the people who pratice it. People have murdered in the name of Islam, Buddhism, Hidduism, Shintoism, etc.
I am just doing what I am called to do, spread the word of God. I am bringing a message of hope, peace, and salvation. Listen with your heart.
Do any of you believe in absolutes?


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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
    #1966963 - 09/30/03 05:49 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Racism. Racism was coined only in the last couple of centuries. Because of evolution, white men though black people were inferior.



First of all, racism has been around a lot longer than that. Second, I asked for an atrocity committed in the name of atheism. Evolution is not atheism. In fact, there are many Christians who believe in evolution, my grandfather being one of them.


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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1967020 - 09/30/03 06:03 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Atheists don't really believe in anything so they can't justify the atrocities they carry out with anything. It doesn't mean atheists don't do bad things though. Humans do bad things.


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Edited by Zahid (09/30/03 06:05 PM)

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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
    #1967072 - 09/30/03 06:19 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Funguy said:
Quote:

Racism. Racism was coined only in the last couple of centuries. Because of evolution, white men though black people were inferior.




The brand of Social Darwinism you mention isn't so easy to detach from the Christian culture it was born in. In fact, to some it explains of the "mark of Cain" of Genesis. Christian slave-holders were more than happy to buy into it.

But anyway, I'm going to jump back out of all of that. You say you've been called to bring a message of "hope, peace, and salvation." In an earlier post you mentioned the ABCs of the Gospel, and then you said, "Find a church you like." Is that also part of the ABCs then? Is it the ABCDs of the Gospel? How do you feel about people joining the Mormon Church?

(I really didn't post all of that about Mormonism just to be a jokester, I honestly don't see a difference between the claims of Mormonism to exclusivity and the claims of Christianity to exclusivity (exclusive keys to salvation), except for a difference of degrees. And I have never heard an explanation of the difference that wasn't begging some question or other)

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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Zahid]
    #1967137 - 09/30/03 06:42 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Atheists don't really believe in anything so they can't justify the atrocities they carry out with anything. It doesn't mean atheists don't do bad things though. Humans do bad things.

what atrocities have we carried out in the NAME of atheism? None. That being said, many atrocities have been carried out in the name of a religion.

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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1967259 - 09/30/03 07:16 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

My point was about how you were saying something to the effect that Christianity has survived for 2000 years because it is the one true word of God. I was pointing out that those 2000 years are marked by horrible acts of persecution being carried out in the name of the so-called true word of God.

No, I said the word of God had lasted and existed for 2000 years. I was pointing out that nowhere in that word does it say to persecute or kill in God's name. You should stop branding all into some. You are doing the same closed minded thinking that you are accusing us Christians of.

Because your religion is based on writings that didn't exist in the early Christian church, written by men who had never met Jesus, which didn't become an official part of Christianity until the Nicene Council, which was, I believe, AT LEAST 200 years after Christ had died.

Just because some organized religion didnt recognize them as fact sure doesnt mean they didnt exist from the moment they were spoken by Jesus. A good portion of the books, again, where not written 200 years after Jesus's death. Jesus didnt die until sometime between 30-35 AD (depending upon who you listen to) ..alot of the books: 1Thessalonias, Hebrews, Phillipans, Galatians, Corinthians 1and 2, Philemon, Colossians, Ephesians, Peter, Luke, the johns.. etc.. are widely accepted to have been written between 40 and 100 AD-- some were written more quickly by Paul, some came a little bit later That dates them 5-75(max) years after Jesus ascended.

Who exactly hadnt met Jesus? James the Just, his brother? Jude? His other brother? John? His disciple? Paul? Surely you know the story of Paul's Salvation.. So, these guys all made up stories? The same stories in alot of cases?

You keep coming back to this "official part of christianity" speil... My friend, I dont argue with you that alot of the Christian church is evil. I dont argue with you that someone should have been leading you correctly when you went to catholic school.. They should have been teaching you about the word, not their opinions. That's why Im not a preacher or deacon, I am still struggling with my opinions. Im still fighting against the word in small ways, trying to remove my preconditioning. I've said this before, but unfortunately, it is my beliefs that we currently live in the Laocidean incarnation of the church.. that what is put to the masses as "Christianity" is in a large part false and the motives behind it fall very far from what they are supposed to be. Christians are followers of Christ. If you want to argue about the Church, then that's cool. Ill agree with what you say whole heartedly. But if you want to talk about what Christianity is, you must stop clutching this dead nonliving building and these pharisee preachers.


Have you read the Gospel of Thomas, or Mary Magdelene, or any other of the apocryphal writings? You assume that early Christianity went by the same four Gospels which you've read, when in reality it was FAR more diverse than that.

Yes, I have read those Gospels. Mary much earlier and more recently, due to the urging of Markos, Thomas. The same four gospels which I read? Hun, you need to ask for your tuition money back from that Christian school if they taught you there were only four gospels. They must have removed huge chunks of your bible.

As for the diversity and applicability of the apocrypha.. I think that yes, if you want to come to have a clearer picture of the writings in the bible, you can look at the apocrypha with a very cynical eye.. you will see much of the bible in it.. and yes, there are some interesting theories. But see, I believe that my Lord is just and that he has given us everything we need to know him and that it is contained within the Bible. I dont believe in some crazy idea of God that man is able to put asunder his teachings. What kind of God would that be? Not too powerful, not to mighty.. actually, it's reducing him to our limited capabilities. I'm sure that early Christians had a struggle to filter and fiber all of the portions and make sure they equated to the whole.. but the truth was still there and obviously, at some point there was a call to figure out just what it was. I do grapple with the concept of the church canonizing the Bible.. but again, I have faith that God has the power to make sure that the true word was revealed.

I have no doubt that there are some things of validity in those books, but as fallible humans, there are also some that are not valid.. hence why they are not part of the Bible

On a side note.. Gospel of Thomas:
114 Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life." Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."

Only in this Gospel does it say anything remotely like that. In this one place.. it says the opposite in countless other scriptures... While much of Thomas is good and supported, this is not, hence one questions if this is truly the word of Jesus or the error of man.



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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Zahid]
    #1967282 - 09/30/03 07:21 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Zahid said: "Humans do bad things."

That pretty much sums that whole arguement up. Wether they do it in the name of God, Mc Donalds, a dog named Sam.. HUMANS do bad things. That is a choice we can make. We can choose to do good with our knowledge or evil.


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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: ]
    #1967306 - 09/30/03 07:27 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

You can't manipulate atheism.


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Anonymous

Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Zahid]
    #1967321 - 09/30/03 07:30 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

thats the beauty of it :smile:

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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: ]
    #1967332 - 09/30/03 07:33 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Looner, what country do you live in? Cause Im sure I can give you a huge list of atrocities carried out in the name of your country and it's people.. death, destruction.. all of it. So, by that token, that makes you as a part of that society.. as a "whatever"ican or -ean akin to your theory on Christianity, your people have done horrible things in the name of your country. So therefore, every law that your country was founded upon and every reason for its creation must be a lie. It must be wrong..

Im sure you see where Im going with this...

Also,

I wish that all of you who claimed such open mindedness could really stop sterotyping. I mean, fuck, Ive never seen a christian on these boards Judge you. They may state their opinion. But person after person.. you have no respect and yet you gripe about christians.. I mean, come on people.. can nobody see the humor in that? I see the crap in christians in glass houses throwing stones. But look at the constant nonrespect of a person's beliefs if they are Christian. People will specifically start threads, ask questions.. instigate.. when they have no desire to know anything.. when they have no desire to UNDERSTAND Christianity.. but just to tell Christians how wrong they are and what sheep they are. Well, he is my shepard and I'm very thankful to be a sheep in his flock. How can you not see that you are just preaching and creating the same intolerance that you claim exists in Christianity. I just dont understand how you cannot see that.

It's truly maddening. How can your eyes be open when you have no respect for opinions other then yours?

I mean, that's cool and all.. if that's how you want to be.. but look at the hypocrisy in it.

I'd love to start a thread where you guys honestly answered a question:

What is it in you that created to such hatred and dislike for Christianity? What happened in your life? Did some preacher tell you that you were damned? Did some TV evangelist rub you the wrong way? Did you have issues with ultra conservative parents?... But those honest answers would never come out. It would degrade into some constant bashing. I hope that some day a true Christian asks all of you that question in person, where you cant hide behind screens and misconceptions.. and I hope that they can help you to honestly see what it is exactly that you are really denying.. God, Guilt or misconception.


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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: ]
    #1967360 - 09/30/03 07:42 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

LoOnEr said:
thats the beauty of it :smile:




Beauty? Ok.

ma?nip?u?late  Audio pronunciation of manipulate ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (m-npy-lt)
tr.v. ma?nip?u?lat?ed, ma?nip?u?lat?ing, ma?nip?u?lates

  1. To move, arrange, operate, or control by the hands or by mechanical means, especially in a skillful manner: She manipulated the lights to get just the effect she wanted.
  2. To influence or manage shrewdly or deviously: He manipulated public opinion in his favor.
  3. To tamper with or falsify for personal gain: tried to manipulate stock prices.
  4. Medicine. To handle and move in an examination or for therapeutic purposes: manipulate a joint; manipulate the position of a fetus during delivery.

So, indeed manipulation is the key word; which goes to show the followers of any particular doctrine do not represent the tenets of that doctrine/religion. Agree? 


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Anonymous

Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1967397 - 09/30/03 07:53 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

he's got a point. i don't think there's been many atrocities commited in the name of atheism.

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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1967399 - 09/30/03 07:53 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

PsiloKitten said:
My point was about how you were saying something to the effect that Christianity has survived for 2000 years because it is the one true word of God. I was pointing out that those 2000 years are marked by horrible acts of persecution being carried out in the name of the so-called true word of God.

No, I said the word of God had lasted and existed for 2000 years. I was pointing out that nowhere in that word does it say to persecute or kill in God's name. You should stop branding all into some. You are doing the same closed minded thinking that you are accusing us Christians of.



I am not branding all into some. Here was the quote I responded to: "Only the true word could last 2000 years." I was pointing out that much of those 2000 years consisted of atrocities being committed by people in the name of the so-called "true word." Christianity did not survive for 2000 years because it is the "true word." It survived for 2000 years because it could be manipulated by people to serve their own selfish ends.

Quote:

Because your religion is based on writings that didn't exist in the early Christian church, written by men who had never met Jesus, which didn't become an official part of Christianity until the Nicene Council, which was, I believe, AT LEAST 200 years after Christ had died.

Just because some organized religion didnt recognize them as fact sure doesnt mean they didnt exist from the moment they were spoken by Jesus. A good portion of the books, again, where not written 200 years after Jesus's death. Jesus didnt die until sometime between 30-35 AD (depending upon who you listen to) ..alot of the books: 1Thessalonias, Hebrews, Phillipans, Galatians, Corinthians 1and 2, Philemon, Colossians, Ephesians, Peter, Luke, the johns.. etc.. are widely accepted to have been written between 40 and 100 AD-- some were written more quickly by Paul, some came a little bit later That dates them 5-75(max) years after Jesus ascended.

Who exactly hadnt met Jesus? James the Just, his brother? Jude? His other brother? John? His disciple? Paul? Surely you know the story of Paul's Salvation.. So, these guys all made up stories? The same stories in alot of cases?




Paul never met Jesus in the flesh. He supposedly had a "vision." Fine, accept that if you will, if you will accept the vision I had on a high dose of mushrooms where I realized we are all God and that all is one. As for John, if you are referring to the Gospel according to John, that the last Gospel to be written. John the apostle would not have lived long enough to have written that. As for the others, I'm not aware of their writings telling the story of Jesus's life(and therefore they are not Gospel writers).

Quote:

You keep coming back to this "official part of christianity" speil... My friend, I dont argue with you that alot of the Christian church is evil. I dont argue with you that someone should have been leading you correctly when you went to catholic school.. They should have been teaching you about the word, not their opinions. That's why Im not a preacher or deacon, I am still struggling with my opinions. Im still fighting against the word in small ways, trying to remove my preconditioning. I've said this before, but unfortunately, it is my beliefs that we currently live in the Laocidean incarnation of the church.. that what is put to the masses as "Christianity" is in a large part false and the motives behind it fall very far from what they are supposed to be. Christians are followers of Christ. If you want to argue about the Church, then that's cool. Ill agree with what you say whole heartedly. But if you want to talk about what Christianity is, you must stop clutching this dead nonliving building and these pharisee preachers.



I was only making the point that originally there was more to Christianity than what you read in the New Testament. That is all. You are not part of a religion that is 2000 years old. You are part of an adaptation of that religion.

Quote:

Have you read the Gospel of Thomas, or Mary Magdelene, or any other of the apocryphal writings? You assume that early Christianity went by the same four Gospels which you've read, when in reality it was FAR more diverse than that.

Yes, I have read those Gospels. Mary much earlier and more recently, due to the urging of Markos, Thomas. The same four gospels which I read? Hun, you need to ask for your tuition money back from that Christian school if they taught you there were only four gospels. They must have removed huge chunks of your bible.



No, they didn't teach me that there were only four gospels. They taught me that there are four officially recognized gospels in the New Testament, as well as the Pauline letters and other letters, plus the Book of Revelation. They also taught me about the apocryphal writings, which I'm glad you've read. Now let me ask you this: Do you accept the apocryphal writings as the infallible word of God, as you do with the other 4 gospels?

Quote:

As for the diversity and applicability of the apocrypha.. I think that yes, if you want to come to have a clearer picture of the writings in the bible, you can look at the apocrypha with a very cynical eye.. you will see much of the bible in it.. and yes, there are some interesting theories. But see, I believe that my Lord is just and that he has given us everything we need to know him and that it is contained within the Bible. I dont believe in some crazy idea of God that man is able to put asunder his teachings. What kind of God would that be? Not too powerful, not to mighty.. actually, it's reducing him to our limited capabilities. I'm sure that early Christians had a struggle to filter and fiber all of the portions and make sure they equated to the whole.. but the truth was still there and obviously, at some point there was a call to figure out just what it was. I do grapple with the concept of the church canonizing the Bible.. but again, I have faith that God has the power to make sure that the true word was revealed.



Ah, the whole "God wouldn't let us be decieved" theory. If God wouldn't let us be decieved, then how do you explain the fossil record, since you denounce evolution? How do you explain the way the Bible has been manipulated to justify things like slavery and the witch-hunts? Surely almighty God wouldn't allow such things to happen...

Quote:

I have no doubt that there are some things of validity in those books, but as fallible humans, there are also some that are not valid.. hence why they are not part of the Bible



Yet Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were infallible? Just because a group of powerful bishops decided they were the only acceptable Gospels? They chose them because they didn't undermine their authority.

Quote:

On a side note.. Gospel of Thomas:
114 Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life." Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."

Only in this Gospel does it say anything remotely like that. In this one place.. it says the opposite in countless other scriptures... While much of Thomas is good and supported, this is not, hence one questions if this is truly the word of Jesus or the error of man.





And how do you know Jesus didn't say that? Maybe he was a mysogynist. You don't know for a fact that he wasn't.


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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1967408 - 09/30/03 07:55 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

PsiloKitten said:
Looner, what country do you live in? Cause Im sure I can give you a huge list of atrocities carried out in the name of your country and it's people.. death, destruction.. all of it. So, by that token, that makes you as a part of that society.. as a "whatever"ican or -ean akin to your theory on Christianity, your people have done horrible things in the name of your country.



There's a difference. He never chose to be born in the country he's in. You, on the other hand, CHOSE to be Christian.


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Anonymous

Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1967434 - 09/30/03 08:02 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

there were crimes commited in the name of christianity but they weren't commited by christians.

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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: ]
    #1967498 - 09/30/03 08:22 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

True.

"There was only one true Christian, and he died on the cross."--Nietzche


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Anonymous

Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1967534 - 09/30/03 08:32 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

what about markosthegnostic?

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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: ]
    #1967542 - 09/30/03 08:34 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

What about him? Do you think he's any more a true Christian than any other person claiming to be Christian? He has his own beliefs, which I respect, and if he wants to call himself a Christian, then fine. I still stand by that Nietzche quote.


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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1967561 - 09/30/03 08:39 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

PsiloKitten, your question isn't a fair question. Why is it that critics of Christianity necessarily hate Christianity? Is that how it is for anyone who is critical of anything? Be careful not to develop a persecution complex. Now you as a Christian may be pretty good at living and letting live, but as a doctrine Christianity isn't so good at that. It's the correct way to live, for everyone, and it weighs on the conscience of adherents to go out and "convert" others, "save souls". It naturally leads people to feel "called" to evangelize the "truth". here's one example.

(from the site: "Aim: To teach that the mission of the local church is to evangelize the world."

Which is all fine, let people go out and preach damnation and salvation. But don't throw a fit because others take issue with it and challenge those evangelists.

Besides, wouldn't it be a whole lot easier to emulate Christ without trying to figure out the scriptures? As you said, there are faults in the verses in which "one questions if this is truly the word of Jesus or the error of man"--if we accept that then a whole box is opened. And I do accept it--I have a feeling that there are all kinds of lines put in Jesus' mouth. Since it's pretty apparent no one can be sure which are his words and which aren't, I don't see the point in trying to rely on the Bible. Here's an idea: maybe to "Be like Christ" could mean to be as true to oneself as he was to himself.

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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1967567 - 09/30/03 08:41 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

What's the Nietschze quote?

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Anonymous

Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1967579 - 09/30/03 08:45 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Do you think he's any more a true Christian than any other person claiming to be Christian?

from what i can gleam from his posts, he is, without a doubt, moreso than most.

I still stand by that Nietzche quote.

would you apply it to other spiritual paths?

the buddha was the last real buddhist? lao-tzu (or chuang-tzu?) was the last true taoist? muhammad the last real muslim?

the quote sounds neat and all... it really does... but really... what is it getting at?

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Anonymous

Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Zahid]
    #1967641 - 09/30/03 09:03 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

So, indeed manipulation is the key word; which goes to show the followers of any particular doctrine do not represent the tenets of that doctrine/religion. Agree?

yes but, you don't believe that your religion stands for something in particular... lets say violence. now the same followers of your religion will say the complete opposite and will use violence as a justified means for whatever purpose.


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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: ]
    #1967677 - 09/30/03 09:11 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
Do you think he's any more a true Christian than any other person claiming to be Christian?

from what i can gleam from his posts, he is, without a doubt, moreso than most.



I agree with him on a lot of things, and he has an interesting perspective, but that doesn't make him a true Christian.

Quote:

I still stand by that Nietzche quote.

would you apply it to other spiritual paths?

the buddha was the last real buddhist? lao-tzu (or chuang-tzu?) was the last true taoist? muhammad the last real muslim?



Yes to all those questions.

Quote:

the quote sounds neat and all... it really does... but really... what is it getting at?



That categorizing one's beliefs is bullshit and you should think for yourself.


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1967682 - 09/30/03 09:13 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I am not branding all into some. Here was the quote I responded to: "Only the true word could last 2000 years." I was pointing out that much of those 2000 years consisted of atrocities being committed by people in the name of the so-called "true word." Christianity did not survive for 2000 years because it is the "true word." It survived for 2000 years because it could be manipulated by people to serve their own selfish ends.

Opinion noted.


Paul never met Jesus in the flesh. He supposedly had a "vision."

Your God sure doesnt sound very powerful if he cant even come to someone in a vision.. How the hell do you know of this God of yours.. btw?

Fine, accept that if you will, if you will accept the vision I had on a high dose of mushrooms where I realized we are all God and that all is one.

Oh, in a vision? Fancy that.

As for John, if you are referring to the Gospel according to John, that the last Gospel to be written. John the apostle would not have lived long enough to have written that. As for the others, I'm not aware of their writings telling the story of Jesus's life(and therefore they are not Gospel writers).

Umm.. Id beg to differ. Even at the end of the spectrum.. it is believe that John 1, 2, 3 and the Gospel of John where written from 90-120 AD. John was just a babe when Jesus ascended. He very easily could have lived long enough even to satisfy the outer spectrum of what some consider the time span. Some also think that there was a purpose that he who was closest of all the disciples to Jesus, he who laid his head on the Lord's chest and listened to his heart.. who stood in the inner circle.. wrote his Gospel last to unfold the works of others.. to make plain of their teachings.

Oh, and the word Gospel means "good news" and there are many gospels mentioned throughout the bible. The gospel of the kingdom, salvation, peace, jesus, circumcision, grace.. etc, etc. In the apocrypha there are many more that come after John.. Mary, James.. Phillip.. the Savior... ect.

Paul taught a gospel of forgiveness and redemption.

Etc. Etc. Etc.



No, they didn't teach me that there were only four gospels. They taught me that there are four officially recognized gospels in the New Testament, as well as the Pauline letters and other letters, plus the Book of Revelation. They also taught me about the apocryphal writings, which I'm glad you've read. Now let me ask you this: Do you accept the apocryphal writings as the infallible word of God, as you do with the other 4 gospels?
Nope. I dont. As illustrated in my last post and my explanation of why.


Ah, the whole "God wouldn't let us be decieved" theory. If God wouldn't let us be decieved, then how do you explain the fossil record, since you denounce evolution?

How do I explain that there is a fossil record? On the 5th and 6th day the Lord created other life, not just humans.. he created fish and birds and animals. One of the Lord's days isnt nessecarily 24 hours. I dont denounce evolution.. I think that as beings we do evolve: physically, spiritually and mentally. I think that animals and fish do indeed evolve.. they adapt as well. I just denounce that we evolved from some mysterious amino acid/astroid/fusion/sea fissures/ insert your scientific belief. Have you looked at your body? There are somethings in our body that scientists still cant fully explain what they do. Remember, tonsills-- yank em out.. appendixes? You dont need em..
Our body is an amazingly complex thing. I mean, hell.. just take your liver.. a liver is capable of filtering toxins out of our body.. I mean, with the food we eat and the air we breathe there is no reason why we should be able to even exist.. but this amazing organ is able to somehow seperate toxins and send them on the correct paths out of the body. That's just one part of an amazingly complex system that I just do not believe "evolved" from a single cell. All of those "theories" have yet to have reproduced this.. Perhaps they created some life.. some bacteria, some virus.. whatever.. but they sure havent been able to create anything remotely humanlike. And you can say.. well over billions of years... it will do this or that, but honestly, nobody knows what it will do in billions of years. They have theories. We cant even create humans outside of the body and nurture them to existance when we have an egg and a sperm. I believe life is a miracle, not some random chance. It's a gift given by someone more omnipotent then we are.

Im also not saying that the Lord would not let us be decieved. Obviously, in my opinion, you have been decieved, be it by your teachers or Satan, or whatever... even though I acknowledge that the Bible is the word of God you dont have to read it.. you dont have to believe it.. It, just like anything, can be misinterpreted.. people can teach things that are not true. People can quote scriptures out of context. If you have ill intent in your heart, you may even be able to justify it by preverting portions of the Bible. I'm simply saying that he has given us everything we need to know him. He has taken out all of the questionable elements.. boiled it down to the simplest common denominator. I dont need to read the apocrypha to know him. It's all right there. Maybe the apocrycha can help me to more understand the ways of man, the roots of sin, the gift of forgiveness and redemption.. but it is a "additional reading" at best.


How do you explain the way the Bible has been manipulated to justify things like slavery and the witch-hunts? Surely almighty God wouldn't allow such things to happen...

God gave us Free Will. We can do whatever we wish with his word. Again, we can prevert it.. we can slander it.. we can do what we want. He doesnt prevent or allow us to do anything.. we have FREE WILL. He gave us guidelines.. if he forced us to follow them then we wouldnt even be having this discussion right now and the greatness of his love and glory would be denied.


Yet Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were infallible? Just because a group of powerful bishops decided they were the only acceptable Gospels? They chose them because they didn't undermine their authority.
Are Mark, Matthew, Luke and John consistant? Then look at the "Gospel of Thomas"- is it a lone wolf.. contridicted in many different books of the Bible? Not just a single solitary one? Please tell me exactly what Mark, Matthew, Luke and John say that ruffle your feathers so much.. what do they say that these powerful bishops are so benefitted by? They say.. screw the Pharisees... screw the tax collectors...you dont have to wash your hands to be my child, you dont have to be circumcized.. poopoo on the some of the old stupid traditions...You dont have to kill animals and offer them to me, it's okay.. Sabbath? Would you let a man die, just because it was the Sabbath? That's retarded!-- (These are my wordings, of course)

And how do you know Jesus didn't say that?
Because repeatedly in many other books of the Bible he does not say that. he says quite the opposite.

Maybe he was a mysogynist.You don't know for a fact that he wasn't.
Now you are just arging to argue. Again the same Bible verse as last time


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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1967686 - 09/30/03 09:14 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Looner, what country do you live in? Cause Im sure I can give you a huge list of atrocities carried out in the name of your country and it's people.. death, destruction.. all of it. So, by that token, that makes you as a part of that society.. as a "whatever"ican or -ean akin to your theory on Christianity, your people have done horrible things in the name of your country. So therefore, every law that your country was founded upon and every reason for its creation must be a lie. It must be wrong..

don't make the assumption that because of where i was born, means that i adopt the values of that country and agree with the atrocities that have been carried out. i am very aware at the horrible things against humanity that country's carry out.

BUT... lets not forget the wonderful saying that goes along with every countries slogan before they go off to war... "God Bless Our Troops", now tell me how does that saying affect you as christian, are you disgusted by it? because i am (even though i am not a christian), the very fact that christians bring god as a motivational speaker for their wars makes me discredit the vast followers of the said religion as mere sheep.... i'm sure there are others who aren't so easily gullible, but the brainwashing power is there, and i find that VERY dangerous.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1967724 - 09/30/03 09:24 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

PsiloKitten said:
I wish that all of you who claimed such open mindedness could really stop sterotyping. I mean, fuck, Ive never seen a christian on these boards Judge you. They may state their opinion. But person after person.. you have no respect and yet you gripe about christians.. I mean, come on people.. can nobody see the humor in that? I see the crap in christians in glass houses throwing stones. But look at the constant nonrespect of a person's beliefs if they are Christian. People will specifically start threads, ask questions.. instigate.. when they have no desire to know anything.. when they have no desire to UNDERSTAND Christianity.. but just to tell Christians how wrong they are and what sheep they are. Well, he is my shepard and I'm very thankful to be a sheep in his flock. How can you not see that you are just preaching and creating the same intolerance that you claim exists in Christianity. I just dont understand how you cannot see that.



I have no beef with Christianity itself. My grandfather, a Christian(tho a very liberal one), is the wisest man I've ever known. Anyway, you confuse questioning with judging. It is not hateful to ask questions. No belief should be accepted without question. As reasoning beings, we can, and should question everything.

Quote:

It's truly maddening. How can your eyes be open when you have no respect for opinions other then yours?



I respect your opinions, but I disagree with them. I have the right to disagree, don't I?

Quote:

I mean, that's cool and all.. if that's how you want to be.. but look at the hypocrisy in it.



I'm only asking you to examine your beliefs, just as Buddha(the spiritual founder of my religion) told his followers to do.

Quote:

I'd love to start a thread where you guys honestly answered a question:

What is it in you that created to such hatred and dislike for Christianity? What happened in your life? Did some preacher tell you that you were damned? Did some TV evangelist rub you the wrong way? Did you have issues with ultra conservative parents?... But those honest answers would never come out. It would degrade into some constant bashing. I hope that some day a true Christian asks all of you that question in person, where you cant hide behind screens and misconceptions.. and I hope that they can help you to honestly see what it is exactly that you are really denying.. God, Guilt or misconception.



I don't like certain aspects of Christianity, but I don't hate Christianity itself. I don't like the fact that so many Christians act like their favorite book is more valid than the findings of science. I don't like the belief that your religion is the only true religion and that anyone who doesn't blindly accept it will go Hell. That's basically blackmail, and I don't appreciate it. Nevertheless, I have great respect for Jesus, and I believe there is a lot of truth in his teachings. I do believe that he was God in the flesh, but then again, I believe we all are. I have great respect for Christians who put their beliefs under critical analysis and question them, and, if necessary, get rid of those beliefs which don't logically make sense. I respect Christians who don't blindly accept things just because they're written in the Bible. I respect Christians who are open-minded about other beliefs. Unfortunately, such Christians are extremely rare.


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: hongomon]
    #1967770 - 09/30/03 09:37 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

PsiloKitten, your question isn't a fair question. Why is it that critics of Christianity necessarily hate Christianity? Is that how it is for anyone who is critical of anything?

Im sorry that you dont feel my question is fair. You can be a critic of Christianity all you want.. I respect that, truly.. I do.. I think it is good to question and find for yourself. But there is a difference when your mind is completely closed and a point that it comes to when it does become hatred and rudeness and I truly feel if you look at some of the posts in this forum in this thread as well as other threads relating to Christianity that many step over that line. Perhaps I am thin skinned.. but it has always confused me as to why someone has asked a question of a person that they obvoiously arent then proceeded to fight with them about their opinions in that faith. I also dont understand why someone would want to refer to someone's god as an asshole God. I just think it's kinda rude. I dont think you have to tell someone they are wrong and why we cant just share opinions.. and answer questions. I mean, because honestly.. when it all boils down to it, all each of us has is our own faith, not fact.

I dont feel persecuted as a Christian, because most people dont even seem to know what a Christian is.. I feel often persecuted as a preconcived notion.. a stereotype.


Now you as a Christian may be pretty good at living and letting live, but as a doctrine Christianity isn't so good at that.

I have my faults, like anyone else. I just continue to keep trying. Everyone should try to not attack or demonize others.. Christians and nonchristians.

Besides, wouldn't it be a whole lot easier to emulate Christ without trying to figure out the scriptures? As you said, there are faults in the verses in which "one questions if this is truly the word of Jesus or the error of man"--
I believe I said that I questioned the Gospel of Thomas's last verse.. not the scriptures. But I understand the point you are trying to make.. But I dont understand how one can emulate Christ if they dont read the scriptures....We can emulate ideas of Christ.. but where are we supposed to learn of Christ? In the Bible it says, Romans 1:20 "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." So, yes, I do believe that we can come to know God without the Bible.. but, how do we come to know Christ?


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: ]
    #1967798 - 09/30/03 09:45 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

don't make the assumption that because of where i was born, means that i adopt the values of that country and agree with the atrocities that have been carried out. i am very aware at the horrible things against humanity that country's carry out.

But, Looner, cannot you not recognize that that ideal is the same thought as lumping all Christians together? I dont agree with the crusades either.. I dont agree with slavery

BUT... lets not forget the wonderful saying that goes along with every countries slogan before they go off to war... "God Bless Our Troops", now tell me how does that saying affect you as christian, are you disgusted by it?

See, Im not disgusted by the saying. I ask that God Bless our troops, the iraqis, the children, the animals, etc.. every day... I ask that he bless everyone and everything. I am disgusted by the exclusivity of that saying. I am disgusted that somehow someone thinks that someone else's life is better or more worth blessing then any other life. I agree with you.. I was physically ill after I watched Powell and Rumsfeld recite their Bible verses on the Sept. 11th anniversary. I was so mad and upset and pissed off that I could barely see straight. I dislike greatly that so much good is often twisted into true perversion. I also disagree with the doctrines of Christian's who do not think for themselves. They allow others to taint their views... they are lazy and they arent any closer to God then an Aetheist (sp? Its been alot of typing today)


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1967843 - 09/30/03 09:59 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

If all that is true, it can be seen a bit negatively to refer to someone's idea of god as an "asshole God".. just an fyi

I respect your opinions, but I disagree with them. I have the right to disagree, don't I?

It saddens me when one cant disagree respectfully. Again, if I misinterpreted your words, that is my fault.

I'm only asking you to examine your beliefs, just as Buddha(the spiritual founder of my religion) told his followers to do.
And friend, that's what Im also asking you to do. It seems as if we have the same purpose. My question is just.. if you dont care to try and understand the view of a Christian on a topic close to their hearts.. if you obviously have your mind already completely made up and the Bible and Christianity and faith is all wrong.. why ask the question?

Can you not see as a student of Buddhism the parallels? As a Christian, I can see the paralells in Buddhism. And.. you are an evolutionist Buddhist? Interesting. It sounds like you are taking bits and peices from many places and forming the religion of you. That is great. But this is the religion that I believe, you know.. just because someone believes doesnt mean they are a sheep... it doesnt mean they havent questioned... it doesnt mean that they dont possess logic. It means that something struck them in their heart. Something made sense to them. It called to them... and just because it is wrong for you, it doesnt make it wrong...

In closing, be gentle with people.. there is no need to be so combative and as I read back.. angry.. Im sorry, this is how I feel.. We can disagree without being disagreeable. And Im not just speaking to you. Infact, that message is directed only 5% towards you, okay?


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Edited by PsiloKitten (09/30/03 10:03 PM)

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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1967845 - 09/30/03 09:59 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

That categorizing one's beliefs is bullshit and you should think for yourself.




I guess I have my own religion

Dr J-ism

heheh

I said "Jism"

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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1967865 - 09/30/03 10:05 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

PsiloKitten said:
Zahid said: "Humans do bad things."

That pretty much sums that whole arguement up. Wether they do it in the name of God, Mc Donalds, a dog named Sam.. HUMANS do bad things. That is a choice we can make. We can choose to do good with our knowledge or evil.




This is really what I meant. It is under the humans' false assumptions of Christianity that horrible acts have been commited. You should not judge a whole religion based on what certain individuals do.
But what about the good acts of Christianity? How come nobody ever wants to focus on that? Christian organizations send thousands of dollars worth of supplies and workforce to other areas. My church does local missions, from building construction to feeding the homeless. We also send a team of workers once a year to Ecuador for missions work as well.
If you want to judge a religion, you cannot just focus on the bad aspects of the people who supposedly practice it.
I do not think there is such a thing as true atheism. There is no actual way to prove whether or not God actually exists. I base my beliefs on life experiences and studying the Bible, not just reading it.


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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1967888 - 09/30/03 10:09 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

PsiloKitten said:
Paul never met Jesus in the flesh. He supposedly had a "vision."

Your God sure doesnt sound very powerful if he cant even come to someone in a vision.. How the hell do you know of this God of yours.. btw?



Excuse me? Where did I say he couldn't come to someone in a vision?

Quote:

Fine, accept that if you will, if you will accept the vision I had on a high dose of mushrooms where I realized we are all God and that all is one.

Oh, in a vision? Fancy that.



See above comment.

Quote:

As for John, if you are referring to the Gospel according to John, that the last Gospel to be written. John the apostle would not have lived long enough to have written that. As for the others, I'm not aware of their writings telling the story of Jesus's life(and therefore they are not Gospel writers).

Umm.. Id beg to differ. Even at the end of the spectrum.. it is believe that John 1, 2, 3 and the Gospel of John where written from 90-120 AD. John was just a babe when Jesus ascended. He very easily could have lived long enough even to satisfy the outer spectrum of what some consider the time span. Some also think that there was a purpose that he who was closest of all the disciples to Jesus, he who laid his head on the Lord's chest and listened to his heart.. who stood in the inner circle.. wrote his Gospel last to unfold the works of others.. to make plain of their teachings.



Ok, are you talking about John the apostle, or John the Gospel writer? Obviously John the apostle couldn't have just been a baby when Jesus died.

Quote:

Oh, and the word Gospel means "good news" and there are many gospels mentioned throughout the bible. The gospel of the kingdom, salvation, peace, jesus, circumcision, grace.. etc, etc. In the apocrypha there are many more that come after John.. Mary, James.. Phillip.. the Savior... ect.



Ok, if you want to take thing literally, then yes, you have a point. I was referring to the books that started with "The Gospel According to..."

Quote:

Ah, the whole "God wouldn't let us be decieved" theory. If God wouldn't let us be decieved, then how do you explain the fossil record, since you denounce evolution?

How do I explain that there is a fossil record? On the 5th and 6th day the Lord created other life, not just humans.. he created fish and birds and animals. One of the Lord's days isnt nessecarily 24 hours. I dont denounce evolution.. I think that as beings we do evolve: physically, spiritually and mentally. I think that animals and fish do indeed evolve.. they adapt as well. I just denounce that we evolved from some mysterious amino acid/astroid/fusion/sea fissures/ insert your scientific belief. Have you looked at your body? There are somethings in our body that scientists still cant fully explain what they do. Remember, tonsills-- yank em out.. appendixes? You dont need em..
Our body is an amazingly complex thing. I mean, hell.. just take your liver.. a liver is capable of filtering toxins out of our body.. I mean, with the food we eat and the air we breathe there is no reason why we should be able to even exist.. but this amazing organ is able to somehow seperate toxins and send them on the correct paths out of the body. That's just one part of an amazingly complex system that I just do not believe "evolved" from a single cell. All of those "theories" have yet to have reproduced this.. Perhaps they created some life.. some bacteria, some virus.. whatever.. but they sure havent been able to create anything remotely humanlike. And you can say.. well over billions of years... it will do this or that, but honestly, nobody knows what it will do in billions of years. They have theories. We cant even create humans outside of the body and nurture them to existance when we have an egg and a sperm. I believe life is a miracle, not some random chance. It's a gift given by someone more omnipotent then we are.




Theories are more than just guesses. They are explanations for observable phenomenon. The fossil record indicates that there are different species which have long since ceased to exist, some of which(like our homonid ancestors such as Homo Erectus) are genetically closer to us than any living animal.

Quote:

Im also not saying that the Lord would not let us be decieved. Obviously, in my opinion, you have been decieved, be it by your teachers or Satan, or whatever... even though I acknowledge that the Bible is the word of God you dont have to read it.. you dont have to believe it.. It, just like anything, can be misinterpreted.. people can teach things that are not true. People can quote scriptures out of context. If you have ill intent in your heart, you may even be able to justify it by preverting portions of the Bible. I'm simply saying that he has given us everything we need to know him. He has taken out all of the questionable elements.. boiled it down to the simplest common denominator. I dont need to read the apocrypha to know him. It's all right there. Maybe the apocrycha can help me to more understand the ways of man, the roots of sin, the gift of forgiveness and redemption.. but it is a "additional reading" at best.



So you think God would allow Bible verses supporting slavery(Leviticus 25:44) and the death penalty for violating the Sabbath(Exodus 35:2), yet you think he'd interfere with a bunch of Bishops deciding which books should go in the New Testament, and which ones shouldn't? Remember, they were men of power, and had a vested interest in not including any writings which might undermine their authority(such as the Gospel of Thomas).

Quote:

How do you explain the way the Bible has been manipulated to justify things like slavery and the witch-hunts? Surely almighty God wouldn't allow such things to happen...

God gave us Free Will. We can do whatever we wish with his word. Again, we can prevert it.. we can slander it.. we can do what we want. He doesnt prevent or allow us to do anything.. we have FREE WILL. He gave us guidelines.. if he forced us to follow them then we wouldnt even be having this discussion right now and the greatness of his love and glory would be denied.



So do you not believe that the authors of the Bible also had free will? How do you know they had the message right? Either they had free will or they were tools of God. You can't have it both ways.

Quote:

Yet Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were infallible? Just because a group of powerful bishops decided they were the only acceptable Gospels? They chose them because they didn't undermine their authority.
Are Mark, Matthew, Luke and John consistant? Then look at the "Gospel of Thomas"- is it a lone wolf.. contridicted in many different books of the Bible? Not just a single solitary one? Please tell me exactly what Mark, Matthew, Luke and John say that ruffle your feathers so much.. what do they say that these powerful bishops are so benefitted by? They say.. screw the Pharisees... screw the tax collectors...you dont have to wash your hands to be my child, you dont have to be circumcized.. poopoo on the some of the old stupid traditions...You dont have to kill animals and offer them to me, it's okay.. Sabbath? Would you let a man die, just because it was the Sabbath? That's retarded!-- (These are my wordings, of course)



First of all, moder scholars believe that Matthew and Luke were using the same two sources(Mark and a mysterious "Q source"). The Gospel of John is very different, and tells the events of Jesus' life in a different order. Also, how did Judas kill himself? Did he hang himself(Matthew 27:5) or did he jump from a high place(Acts 1:18)?

Quote:

And how do you know Jesus didn't say that?
Because repeatedly in many other books of the Bible he does not say that. he says quite the opposite.



Where does he say the opposite of that. It is true that no other Gospels mention it, but what Bible verses contradict it? Even if you can answer that, the Bible still contradicts itself on some parts.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1967930 - 09/30/03 10:23 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

PsiloKitten said:
It saddens me when one cant disagree respectfully. Again, if I misinterpreted your words, that is my fault.



And it saddens me that you think I was being disrespectful. I was merely attempting to make a skeptical inquiry into your beliefs to see if they hold up.

Quote:

I'm only asking you to examine your beliefs, just as Buddha(the spiritual founder of my religion) told his followers to do.
And friend, that's what Im also asking you to do. It seems as if we have the same purpose. My question is just.. if you dont care to try and understand the view of a Christian on a topic close to their hearts.. if you obviously have your mind already completely made up and the Bible and Christianity and faith is all wrong.. why ask the question?



What makes you think I don't care to understand your view? If I didn't care, I wouldn't ask all these questions. And what makes you think I have my mind completely made up? I am open to all possibilities. I am not saying that the Bible and Christianity have it all wrong(though there are some aspects that contradict science, as well as my ideas of morality and the structure of the universe). I just believe in skeptical inquiry.

Quote:

Can you not see as a student of Buddhism the parallels? As a Christian, I can see the paralells in Buddhism. And.. you are an evolutionist Buddhist? Interesting. It sounds like you are taking bits and peices from many places and forming the religion of you. That is great. But this is the religion that I believe, you know.. just because someone believes doesnt mean they are a sheep... it doesnt mean they havent questioned... it doesnt mean that they dont possess logic. It means that something struck them in their heart. Something made sense to them. It called to them... and just because it is wrong for you, it doesnt make it wrong...



I don't believe I ever said you were a sheep, and if I did, I'm sorry. The reason I talk about unquestioning belief is because you and many other Christians keep talking about how it is good to not see and still believe, which sounds to me like following blindly without questioning things. By the way, though I call myself a Buddhist, I don't follow all the teachings of Buddha just because he said them. I just happen to have personal beliefs, which I arrived at indepently, which coincide with Buddhism. To believe something without question just because some book or person says so is foolish.

Quote:

In closing, be gentle with people.. there is no need to be so combative and as I read back.. angry.. Im sorry, this is how I feel.. We can disagree without being disagreeable. And Im not just speaking to you. Infact, that message is directed only 5% towards you, okay?



Understand that I am not angry with you, or Christianity. What angers me is when people think that to question someone's beliefs is to be hateful towards them.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1968130 - 09/30/03 11:26 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

John, 1John, 2John, and 3John as well as Revelations were written by the same person.. John the apostle.

Yes, John was the babe of the apostles.. He as very young. It is generally believed that he was just in his teens to early 20s when he came to be an apostle. He died in 101, his tomb is now covered by a mosque.


So you think God would allow Bible verses supporting slavery(Leviticus 25:44) and the death penalty for violating the Sabbath(Exodus 35:2), yet you think he'd interfere with a bunch of Bishops deciding which books should go in the New Testament, and which ones shouldn't? Remember, they were men of power, and had a vested interest in not including any writings which might undermine their authority(such as the Gospel of Thomas).

Have you read the NT? You should try it. Again, MEN HAVE FREE WILL. Why must you believe that man is evil and cannot do right and good? You sound like you have a pretty bum opinion of people. Again, I ask just what in the NT is so bad and contrary and so beneficial to the Bishops.. again, I ask in the "Gospel of THomas" what is so damaging to the Bishops?

So do you not believe that the authors of the Bible also had free will? How do you know they had the message right? Either they had free will or they were tools of God. You can't have it both ways.

So, men are incapable of being good and doing right all by themselves?

First of all, moder scholars believe that Matthew and Luke were using the same two sources(Mark and a mysterious "Q source"). The Gospel of John is very different, and tells the events of Jesus' life in a different order. Also, how did Judas kill himself? Did he hang himself(Matthew 27:5) or did he jump from a high place(Acts 1:18)?

Not all modern scholars believe that. Yes, some do.
Matthew tells us exactly how Judas died. Acts tells us that his body fell and was broke open. It doesnt say that is how he died. They arent exclusive. Of course, there are many different opinions on this one. Infact, this is a good example of something that information can be gleaned from the apochrypha regarding.


Where does he say the opposite of that.
You admit, to you.. there is no point in even answering that question.


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1968133 - 09/30/03 11:29 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Understand that I am not angry with you, or Christianity. What angers me is when people think that to question someone's beliefs is to be hateful towards them.

And it angers me when someone refers to my beliefs as an "asshole God". I believe blaphemy of the news (the holy spirit) and the word is pretty serious stuff.

The reason I talk about unquestioning belief is because you and many other Christians keep talking about how it is good to not see and still believe, which sounds to me like following blindly without questioning things.

When do I say that it is good to not see, to blindly believe? I dont. I just said that what we need to believe is right there.. it has been given to us. If you cant see it then, that is your perogative.


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1968143 - 09/30/03 11:33 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

And it angers me when someone refers to my beliefs as an "asshole God". I believe blaphemy of the news (the holy spirit) and the word is pretty serious stuff.




so if WE'RE the ones doing it, why is it your concern?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1968174 - 09/30/03 11:45 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

PsiloKitten said:
John, 1John, 2John, and 3John as well as Revelations were written by the same person.. John the apostle.

Yes, John was the babe of the apostles.. He as very young. It is generally believed that he was just in his teens to early 20s when he came to be an apostle. He died in 101, his tomb is now covered by a mosque.




My understanding, from what I've been taught, is that the Gospel of John was written somewhere around 100 AD or later. Modern scholars generally reject the idea that its author was in fact John the apostle. Remember that John was a common name back then.

Quote:

So you think God would allow Bible verses supporting slavery(Leviticus 25:44) and the death penalty for violating the Sabbath(Exodus 35:2), yet you think he'd interfere with a bunch of Bishops deciding which books should go in the New Testament, and which ones shouldn't? Remember, they were men of power, and had a vested interest in not including any writings which might undermine their authority(such as the Gospel of Thomas).

Have you read the NT? You should try it. Again, MEN HAVE FREE WILL. Why must you believe that man is evil and cannot do right and good? You sound like you have a pretty bum opinion of people. Again, I ask just what in the NT is so bad and contrary and so beneficial to the Bishops.. again, I ask in the "Gospel of THomas" what is so damaging to the Bishops?



I have read large portions of the New Testament, particularly Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. These books talk about the life and message of Jesus, which I generally agree with. Nowhere have I said that people are inherently evil. I just don't think the writers of either the New or Old Testament were infallible, since they were, afterall, only human. Same with the bishops at the Nicene Council. I'm sure many of them had good intentions, but they were basically trying to force their version of Christianity on the whole of Christendom. As for the Gospel of Thomas, I admit I have not read it, but from what I've gathered(Markos, if you're reading this, help me out here), it undermines the Church's authority and places the authority in the individual.

Quote:

So do you not believe that the authors of the Bible also had free will? How do you know they had the message right? Either they had free will or they were tools of God. You can't have it both ways.

So, men are incapable of being good and doing right all by themselves?



Sure they're capable of being good and doing right. That doesn't mean they're infallible. You can be a good person and still not be right about everything.

Quote:

First of all, moder scholars believe that Matthew and Luke were using the same two sources(Mark and a mysterious "Q source"). The Gospel of John is very different, and tells the events of Jesus' life in a different order. Also, how did Judas kill himself? Did he hang himself(Matthew 27:5) or did he jump from a high place(Acts 1:18)?

Not all modern scholars believe that. Yes, some do.
Matthew tells us exactly how Judas died. Acts tells us that his body fell and was broke open. It doesnt say that is how he died. They arent exclusive. Of course, there are many different opinions on this one. Infact, this is a good example of something that information can be gleaned from the apochrypha regarding.




It is true that Acts does not say that is how he died, but it can be inferred from the text. Are we to believe that after he hung himself that someone carried his corpse off somewhere and threw it off of a high place(I hope you realize how far you'd have to fall to spill your intestines)? You can find a wealth of Biblical contradictions here.

Quote:

Where does he say the opposite of that.
You admit, to you.. there is no point in even answering that question.



Why is that? I'm merely asking you to back up one of your claims.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1968602 - 10/01/03 02:19 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

You are responding to me and including my words as a justification for your blasphemy. That is why it concerns me. In the specific instances I have cited and you quoted.


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1968670 - 10/01/03 02:54 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

And some scholars thinks Mary Magdelene was the true writer of the Gospel of John.. and that's great, Im glad they have their opinions.

I do wish you's stop lumping modern scholars together and saying that they do this or that.. cause it is simply not true. Some have one opinion, some have others.. just like ancient scholars. From what I have been taught during my fun and exciting 10 years of catholic school and preceeding 11 years of personal reading and quest has been that there are many ideas on when these books were written.. anywhere from 60-120 AD... at 120 AD it would dictate that those folks dont believe that John wrote the books.. at 60 AD it would dictate that those folks do believe that John wrote the books.

John was indeed a common name back then and judging from your last post you had it a bit confused since you questioned my stating that that John, 1John, 2 John and 3 John had been written by the same person and that he was very young.. even refered to as a "babe" in various writings. Personally, John is my favorite book of the Bible, I've studied it pretty comprehensively, though Im sure I still have much to learn.. and I remember how much confusion I had between the baptist.. was the revelator and the epistle writer the same as the gospel writer? etc.



I have read large portions of the New Testament, particularly Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. These books talk about the life and message of Jesus, which I generally agree with. Nowhere have I said that people are inherently evil. I just don't think the writers of either the New or Old Testament were infallible, since they were, afterall, only human. Same with the bishops at the Nicene Council. I'm sure many of them had good intentions, but they were basically trying to force their version of Christianity on the whole of Christendom. As for the Gospel of Thomas, I admit I have not read it, but from what I've gathered(Markos, if you're reading this, help me out here), it undermines the Church's authority and places the authority in the individual.

I dont think you are fully comprehending what Jesus said about the Church. He doesnt say that the church has to exist in a physical being.. his body is the Church.. Jesus' teachings are in a large portion quite contrary, even in the NT canon to organized religion. I mean, dont you find it kind of interesting that he focused alot of chastizement on the Pharisees?

It is true that Acts does not say that is how he died, but it can be inferred from the text. Are we to believe that after he hung himself that someone carried his corpse off somewhere and threw it off of a high place(I hope you realize how far you'd have to fall to spill your intestines)?
Some believe that his intestines were spilled not because he hung from such a height or because he was thrown from such a high place.. but because his fall came after his death.. Just like current days, when a body dies and bakes in the sun, gasses will form in the abdomen. If that body fell then it would easily rupture spilling intestines. Some people believe that what Peter says in Acts is a metaphor based upon Judas falling from grace and and the bowels, or intestines were, thought the Hebrews, in their unadvanced state of anatomy, where kindness resided. Again, there are many different opinions.. just as many, probably as there are opinions that it negates the whole message of the Bible.


Why is that? I'm merely asking you to back up one of your claims.
Okey dokey.. Let's try it this way. Many Buddhist acknowledge that Jesus traveled to India and studied and taught with them.. Are you familiar with St. Issa? Since this spurs from the religion you claim, Ill just go ahead and focus on that one. I dont dispute that this could very well be the word of Jesus, I cant find anything contridictory to the Bible in it. Im inclined to believe it does indeed chronicle his years between 13 and 29..

At this time, an old woman approached the crowd, but was pushed back. Then Issa said, "Reverence Woman, mother of the universe,' in her lies the truth of creation. She is the foundation of all that is good and beautiful. She is the source of life and death. Upon her depends the existence of man, because she is the sustenance of his labors. She gives birth to you in travail, she watches over your growth. Bless her. Honor her. Defend her. Love your wives and honor them, because tomorrow they shall be mothers, and later-progenitors of a whole race. Their love ennobles man, soothes the embittered heart and tames the beast. Wife and mother-they are the adornments of the universe."

"As light divides itself from darkness, so does woman possess the gift to divide in man good intent from the thought of evil. Your best thoughts must belong to woman. Gather from them your moral strength, which you must possess to sustain your near ones. Do not humiliate her, for therein you will humiliate yourselves. And all which you will do to mother, to wife, to widow or to another woman in sorrow-that shall you also do for the Spirit."

from the Bible, just one contradiction..

There are many and you said yourself.. even if I can find one, the bible is full of .. yadda yadda yadda...(Read your last post) Ephesians 5 :21 -6




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OfflineFunguy
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1969905 - 10/01/03 03:57 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Actually, the Bible can be pretty acurate even from a scientific point of view. But you have to remember that when much of it was written (over a period of several thousand years), people did not have the knowledge of science to help them understand. Maybe God did create the the universe in 6 billion years or so, but it says 6 days in the Bible so he would not overload the "early" human brains (I'm kinda just spouting theories here). The Bible mentions the shifting of the continents (Tower of Babel). Many people have actually tried to prove that the Bible was false, but ended up converting to Christianity (Josh McDowell, The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict). You can also go to www.josh.org/apologetics
If anybody would truly like to delve into the research of the Bible, I would be estatic to send you a few of my own personal books for you to read. I no longer have The New Evidence in my collection, because I have already sent it to someone else at this site.
Lets not lets this thread de-evolve into a flaming session. I have no qualms with any of you, and I'm sure you all have none with me. I am merely stating what I believe is to be the Truth. Don't base your assumptions on Christians, but Christ himself, and what HE said.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1970046 - 10/01/03 04:54 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

PsiloKitten said:
I have read large portions of the New Testament, particularly Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. These books talk about the life and message of Jesus, which I generally agree with. Nowhere have I said that people are inherently evil. I just don't think the writers of either the New or Old Testament were infallible, since they were, afterall, only human. Same with the bishops at the Nicene Council. I'm sure many of them had good intentions, but they were basically trying to force their version of Christianity on the whole of Christendom. As for the Gospel of Thomas, I admit I have not read it, but from what I've gathered(Markos, if you're reading this, help me out here), it undermines the Church's authority and places the authority in the individual.

I dont think you are fully comprehending what Jesus said about the Church. He doesnt say that the church has to exist in a physical being.. his body is the Church.. Jesus' teachings are in a large portion quite contrary, even in the NT canon to organized religion. I mean, dont you find it kind of interesting that he focused alot of chastizement on the Pharisees?



Very well, then. Even if it wasn't about power, all I'm asking is that you not assume that just because some books were put in the Bible and some weren't that that makes one better than the other. The books that are in the Bible just happen to correspond to the theological views of those in power.

Quote:

It is true that Acts does not say that is how he died, but it can be inferred from the text. Are we to believe that after he hung himself that someone carried his corpse off somewhere and threw it off of a high place(I hope you realize how far you'd have to fall to spill your intestines)?
Some believe that his intestines were spilled not because he hung from such a height or because he was thrown from such a high place.. but because his fall came after his death.. Just like current days, when a body dies and bakes in the sun, gasses will form in the abdomen. If that body fell then it would easily rupture spilling intestines. Some people believe that what Peter says in Acts is a metaphor based upon Judas falling from grace and and the bowels, or intestines were, thought the Hebrews, in their unadvanced state of anatomy, where kindness resided. Again, there are many different opinions.. just as many, probably as there are opinions that it negates the whole message of the Bible.



You are leaving something out. It says he fell headlong, in other words head first. You don't fall head first if you're hanging by your neck in a tree. It doesn't make sense.


Quote:

Why is that? I'm merely asking you to back up one of your claims.
Okey dokey.. Let's try it this way. Many Buddhist acknowledge that Jesus traveled to India and studied and taught with them.. Are you familiar with St. Issa? Since this spurs from the religion you claim, Ill just go ahead and focus on that one. I dont dispute that this could very well be the word of Jesus, I cant find anything contridictory to the Bible in it. Im inclined to believe it does indeed chronicle his years between 13 and 29..

At this time, an old woman approached the crowd, but was pushed back. Then Issa said, "Reverence Woman, mother of the universe,' in her lies the truth of creation. She is the foundation of all that is good and beautiful. She is the source of life and death. Upon her depends the existence of man, because she is the sustenance of his labors. She gives birth to you in travail, she watches over your growth. Bless her. Honor her. Defend her. Love your wives and honor them, because tomorrow they shall be mothers, and later-progenitors of a whole race. Their love ennobles man, soothes the embittered heart and tames the beast. Wife and mother-they are the adornments of the universe."

"As light divides itself from darkness, so does woman possess the gift to divide in man good intent from the thought of evil. Your best thoughts must belong to woman. Gather from them your moral strength, which you must possess to sustain your near ones. Do not humiliate her, for therein you will humiliate yourselves. And all which you will do to mother, to wife, to widow or to another woman in sorrow-that shall you also do for the Spirit."




Very well, but that's not from the Bible. You've merely found one apocryphal writing which contradicts another.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Offlinejoeshitragpicker
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
    #1970068 - 10/01/03 05:05 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Can you really say Christianity is the answer for the entire human race?
Wow. I think you need to wake up. its so so so much bigger than christianity/Jesus/The Bible.


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1970823 - 10/01/03 08:56 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

silver,
You still havent told me just what the books that were not put in the Bible did to challenge the establishment and you specifically said Thomas..

Okey dokey, lets look at Thomas. Did you know that the coptic and greek versions of Thomas differ? Two different versions of the same book.. How to pick which is correct? And on top of that there are 3 Greek versions, all with subtle differences. Here is a webpage with many links to resources, both in support and denying the validity of the Gospel of Thomas:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/thomas.html
When Markos told me of that specific Gospel, I researched it for 3 days straight.. and I definately think it has some positives and corrolates to alot of what is in the Bible, but I do agree with the scholars that there are many holes. However, no matter how hard I read that Gospel, the only possible thing I see that could relate to your claim that corrupt men didnt put it in.. is maybe saying #2 and saying 39, which is the most probable.. but in the Bible Jesus chastizes the false prophets and the Pharisees many times.. this is not the worst of his wrath. #65 talks about how the rich wont enter the kingdom.. but that is said many times.. #100 is similar to the give ceasar what is his and me what is mine..#102 isnt all that crazy and I can find many similar quotes in the Bible.. #114, well.. if the bishops were as horrible as you made them out to be and we all knew the climate of the times wasnt exactly women's empowerment, then why would they leave that out?

St Issa is not from the apocrypha. Buddists recorded that story. I was simply taking something from the religion you said you aspired to. I also told you to check out Ephesians, which is also not apocrypha.

As for falling headlong... If you translate the original Hebrew or the Greek, then you will find that headlong is a debateable translation.. It doesnt appear in my Living Bible either.. It does appear in KJV and NIV, however.. so, how can you discredit that this is a metaphor? Even if the translation was absolute and headlong was the definate.. how can you discount the metaphor?


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1970970 - 10/01/03 09:34 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I've cited this before, several times in fact, and I'll do so again: "Liberating the Gospels: Reading the Bible With Jewish Eyes," by [former] Archbishop John Shelby Spong. Anyone brave enough, and secure enough in their Christian faith should read this brilliant treatise about the Bible. Most Gentile Christians are abysmally ignorant of their Jewish (grafted-in) roots of Judaism, and the meaning of 'midrash' which is crucial for understanding how and why the Gospels were composed.

No one with any real understanding of the constuction and then compilation of the New Testament Gospels would believe that contemporaries of Y'shua penned these stories from eye-witness, modern-minded journalistic accounts. One might as well believe that a newsman from the Bethlehem or Nazareth Gazettes (depending upon the account) was taking notes as an astronomical and astrological anomaly shone down on a manger, illuminating an infant like a 100 Watt bulb. Midrash.

Thomas, around which the film 'Stigmata' was made, is not worth killing over. The film was like 'The Celestine Prophesy' in that respect. Thomas does not hold the 'Vicarious Sacrifice' theology of Paul, in which the Sacrificial Lamb of God cleanses all who believe, 'by faith alone.' Thomas embodies a Realized Eschatology (vs. a partially-realized one, part of which will be realized [made real] IN time - in the future). Thomas instructs us to Realize Christ in the Eternal Present. That Realization constitutes the End Times - the END OF TIME - because we transcend time, and come to live in the Eternal Present, which is the Eternal Presence of Christ. Though not truly Gnostic (no complex cosmology/creation story) Thomas does recognize this Realization as spiritual Knowledge - Immediate Knowledge of Reality, or Gnosis. Faith is thr means of the 'Psychic' level Christian while Gnosis belongs to the 'Pneumatic' level Christian. Psychic Christians can become Pneumatic Christians. Since Paul was clearly wrong about the immanent return of Jesus IN TIME, I am a Thomist Christian. He alledgedly preached in India, and this version is remarkably reminiscent of ancient Indian thought, not to mention psychedelic thought whence originated (Soma) Indian religious thought. NOT that Jesus used psychedelics (mind-manifesting), He WAS Psychedelic. The Logos manifests (creates) through Itself.


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1971044 - 10/01/03 09:58 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Markos,
I am indeed currently reading that book, interesting that you brought it up. Perhaps it will illuminate some of the questions I have about Thomas as I have not been able to resolve them through various interpretations that I found online. Im not disagreeing that Thomas is valuable.. just that through studies I do understand why it is not included in the Bible, as I feel there are serious contridictions. I also understand the concept that Thomas, like the remaining parts of the Gospel of Mary, is preaching a more "enlightenment" style view of our ability as man to know God.. My verdict is still open but Im glad to know that this book was a good choice.

On a side note, have you ever visited www.reluctant-messanger.com ? I found it some time ago and it's message seems very much like what Ive seen you post.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1971142 - 10/01/03 10:24 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

PsiloKitten said:
silver,
You still havent told me just what the books that were not put in the Bible did to challenge the establishment and you specifically said Thomas..



Look, talk to Markos about that. He knows more about it than I do.

Quote:

When Markos told me of that specific Gospel, I researched it for 3 days straight.. and I definately think it has some positives and corrolates to alot of what is in the Bible, but I do agree with the scholars that there are many holes. However, no matter how hard I read that Gospel, the only possible thing I see that could relate to your claim that corrupt men didnt put it in.. is maybe saying #2 and saying 39, which is the most probable.. but in the Bible Jesus chastizes the false prophets and the Pharisees many times.. this is not the worst of his wrath. #65 talks about how the rich wont enter the kingdom.. but that is said many times.. #100 is similar to the give ceasar what is his and me what is mine..#102 isnt all that crazy and I can find many similar quotes in the Bible.. #114, well.. if the bishops were as horrible as you made them out to be and we all knew the climate of the times wasnt exactly women's empowerment, then why would they leave that out?



I'm not necessarily saying that the guys who put together the New Testament were corrupt. What I AM saying is that they had their own outlook on Christianity, and they wanted to only put books in there that agreed with their outlook.

Quote:

As for falling headlong... If you translate the original Hebrew or the Greek, then you will find that headlong is a debateable translation.. It doesnt appear in my Living Bible either.. It does appear in KJV and NIV, however.. so, how can you discredit that this is a metaphor? Even if the translation was absolute and headlong was the definate.. how can you discount the metaphor?



Acts talks about him falling headlong and spilling his intestines and then talks about finding a replacement for Judas. It sounds to me like they're talking about a death. Not that it can't have symbolic connotations, just like Jesus' death on the cross has a certain symbolism, but Acts seems to be talking about it in a pretty literal sense.


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Offlinecatalyst777
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1971552 - 10/02/03 12:16 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Wow. So much has been said here, I wish I had more time to respond...

I studied several religions before accepting Christ. I wanted to know who God was, what he was like. That's one of the reasons I started experimenting with p. cubensis. The following experience came after several "trips", each one teaching me something about myself and the world.

I actually decided to follow Christ after a mushroom experience on Slide Mountain in the Catskills. I definately wasn't looking to become a Christian, I just wanted to know the truth. During my hiking trips, both in "normal" and altered mindstates, I would constantly pray for God to reveal himself to me, regardless of what the truth might be. I didn't care who or what God was, I just wanted to know the truth.

On the way back down the mountain, I sensed God speaking to my soul. It was so transcendent, it's hard to explain. My heart was filled with an amazing peace and joy, yet at the same time a hint of sorrow. I sensed Jesus calling me to follow Him. He told me I would be hated my many people and persecuted. He also told me I should never fear, as long as I followed Him.

It was a long series of events in my messed up life that brought me to that point. I guess it started in The Red River Gorge in KY. My first wilderness experience. It really instilled a love for nature in me. The more time I spent in the wilderness, the more I believed in a God.

It would take a long time to recount the series of events that has transpired since that time. Just things that defy coincidence. Meeting amazing people in strange places who shared my affection for either God, mushrooms, or cannabis.

Since I decided to follow Christ, my whole outlook on the world has changed. I used to be so self-centered and uncaring. Now, I feel genuine compassion for people. I'm able to love people who I never could before. I've also lost many so-called friends. I never preached to them. They just couldn't deal with my new faith. Oh well...

I think it's an atrocity what people have done and continue to do in the name of Christ. I'm also painfully aware of how judgemental and mean-spirited some Christians can be. I apologize on behalf of all of them. I've been sort of an outcast in the Christian world because of my use of mind expanding substances. That's not Christ's fault, though. So I press on...

I wish you all love and peace. That may sound like a cliche, but I truely mean that.

If you wish to gain insight into what I believe to be true Christianity, I would advise visiting here:

http://resources.christianity.com/ministries/rzim/main/searchItems.jhtml

This guy's not perfect, but sincere and intellegent.


--------------------
Facts do not cease to exist just because they are ignored.

Aldous Huxley

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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: catalyst777]
    #1971715 - 10/02/03 01:34 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

catalyst,
Your testimony is powerful.

Your story could be my own.. replacing east with west coast mt. ranges :smile:

Thank you so much for sharing it.

Silver,
How can you say that books were excluded because someone didnt want them to be there for reasons contained within them if you have never read the books?  I was taking Thomas as an example.. but we can deconstruct any of them you would like...  I dont understand how you can say these books werent included for the reasons you do.. without reading them and then refer to Markos, isnt that no better then a "christian" that participated in the crusades taking the word of some preacher or king as truth?  Or as a Christian who believes closemindedly as you seem to be "angry" about many doing?

Acts in what translation?  In the original or a translation.. this is what Im getting at.  Also, on an interesting side note about translations.. which actually supports your theory as a buddhist.. check out the wording of Genesis 1:26 and the use of the word "us".  There are alot of things that I cannot explain and dont understand..

In anycase, I think that this has served it's purpose.. you have helped me to find new things to question and investigate.. to figure out my own answers on.  And Im hoping that you, in turn, can see the points Ive tried to make and question, maybe deconstructing and reconstructing your own ideas of Christianity.  I know you will probably roll your eyes at this one, but I honestly believe that someday your path may again cross with Christ and your current journey will aid that meeting.

Shalom, Namaste and all the good stuff :smile:


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Offlinecatalyst777
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1971747 - 10/02/03 01:50 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Psilokitten-I felt an immediate connection to you after reading some of your posts.

The west is truly an amazing place. My wife and I got married on the beach in N. Cali. We now live not *too* far from the west coast. I would love to live in N. Cali, but you know about the $$ aspect...

We are SO ready to move, but not sure where. I need to get back into regular fellowship with God to receive direction.

take care- catalyst



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Facts do not cease to exist just because they are ignored.

Aldous Huxley

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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: catalyst777]
    #1971788 - 10/02/03 02:13 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

:heartpump: 


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OfflineFunguy
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1972637 - 10/02/03 11:41 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Catalyst777, I loved your post! :thumbup: :grin:  We must show the outside world that not every Christian is a pompous, self-righteous hypocritical person.  In fact, most TRUE Christians aren't like that.  However, I know many youth at my local church who are trying to straddle between two lives.  While at church or around adults, they act "Christian," but when around friends, they revert to the total opposite of what Christianity means.  I don't mean to pass judgement on anyone, but just saying you are a Christian is totally different from being one.  Anyway, we must continue to show the world Christ's love for them, even if it means we become outcasts.

"For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved." John 3:17


--------------------

OTD UNDERDOGS

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Offlinenubious
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
    #1972717 - 10/02/03 12:19 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Christ didn't die for OUR sins. Christ died for the sins of humans previous to him - (providing he was human.. I have this alien threory but that's another post). OUR Sins are caused by an upbringing in a CHRISTIAN based society (North America). Technically, Christ can be considered the CAUSE of our sins..


--------------------
No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1972741 - 10/02/03 12:28 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

PsiloKitten said:
Silver,
How can you say that books were excluded because someone didnt want them to be there for reasons contained within them if you have never read the books?  I was taking Thomas as an example.. but we can deconstruct any of them you would like...  I dont understand how you can say these books werent included for the reasons you do.. without reading them and then refer to Markos, isnt that no better then a "christian" that participated in the crusades taking the word of some preacher or king as truth?  Or as a Christian who believes closemindedly as you seem to be "angry" about many doing?



I admit I do not know enough about the Gospel of Thomas to really be discussing it.  I realize that, and that's why I was referring you to Markos.  BTW, I'm not "angry" at anyone.  I'm just frustrated that people seem to think the Bible is an excuse not to think for themselves.

Quote:

Acts in what translation?  In the original or a translation.. this is what Im getting at.  Also, on an interesting side note about translations.. which actually supports your theory as a buddhist.. check out the wording of Genesis 1:26 and the use of the word "us".  There are alot of things that I cannot explain and dont understand..



I forget which translation, but I'm pretty sure it appears similarly in many translations.

Quote:

In anycase, I think that this has served it's purpose.. you have helped me to find new things to question and investigate.. to figure out my own answers on.  And Im hoping that you, in turn, can see the points Ive tried to make and question, maybe deconstructing and reconstructing your own ideas of Christianity.  I know you will probably roll your eyes at this one, but I honestly believe that someday your path may again cross with Christ and your current journey will aid that meeting.



I'm more open-minded than you think.  I believe Christ did have a role to play in the scheme of this universe, but I think the truth is far more complex than what the Bible would lead you to believe.  The Bible is written language, and language cannot speak the truth.  It can only describe the truth.

Quote:

Shalom, Namaste and all the good stuff :smile: 



Namaste. :sun:


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1972849 - 10/02/03 01:09 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
I'm just frustrated that people seem to think the Bible is an excuse not to think for themselves.





Hehe, right on! :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1972924 - 10/02/03 01:34 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Wow, I am amazed.  This thead has over 130 replies... it is about Christianity... and has very few if any flames!!!  Regardless of our individual faith (or lack thereof), the shroomery is a one-of-a-kind community.  Now if only we could get rid of the rest of the world and pull a "Noah's Ark" with the shroomery members...  j/k  :wink:

You people are truely wonderful!
:heart:


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1972937 - 10/02/03 01:38 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Silver,
I was simply quoting your angry remark from other posts. What about those of us who use the Bible to think for ourselves, scorning the dogma that has been passed down through the church, but instead reading His words and works? See, my point is that just because I read the Bible, it doesnt mean that Im not thinking for myself..

Yes, I do not dispute it appears in Acts in many translations. But what concerns me most is the non translation.. the original.

The Bible is written language, and language cannot speak the truth. It can only describe the truth.
Very true. But, if we let it, I truly believe that it can be a guide.





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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1972957 - 10/02/03 01:45 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

PsiloKitten said:
Silver,
I was simply quoting your angry remark from other posts. What about those of us who use the Bible to think for ourselves, scorning the dogma that has been passed down through the church, but instead reading His words and works? See, my point is that just because I read the Bible, it doesnt mean that Im not thinking for myself..



If you're taking the Bible as the ultimate source of truth, you're not truly thinking for yourself. The ultimate source of truth is your own sense of reason and logic. You can agree with what the Bible says, but don't agree with it just because it says something. Agree with it because it concurs with your own beliefs which you arrive at independently.

Quote:

Yes, I do not dispute it appears in Acts in many translations. But what concerns me most is the non translation.. the original.



If I could read Greek, I'd try to read the original.

Quote:

The Bible is written language, and language cannot speak the truth. It can only describe the truth.
Very true. But, if we let it, I truly believe that it can be a guide.



Go ahead and use it as a guide, then, but don't take it as the be-all and end-all. Truth is revealed through logic, reason, and intuition.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineFunguy
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1973122 - 10/02/03 02:31 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

You say the Bible is not fallible because:
1. It was written by men, who make mistakes, change the Bible to suit their own beliefs, etc.

Well, for those of you who believe in evolution, have you every specifically witnessed evolution for yourself? Aren't you reading the writings of scientists, who are men themselves? There are less ethical scientists who could "change" the observations they make in order to suit a belief they have. You cannot say the Bible, or parts of it, is false simply because "men wrote it."
I did not witness any of the events mentioned in the Bible (except for maybe Revelation so far), but yet I believe them. I DO question the Bible, all Christians do once in a while, but I don't question its accuracy.
Let's not focus on Christians and what they have done, but Christ himself. He said several times that he came to give life, and give it more abundantly. He came knowing he would sacrifice his life for us sinners. He also knew that the chains of death could not hold him. It is his resurrection that gives us hope for a new life.

In my opinion Christ could only be one of three things. Many people say "he was a good man," or "he was a good prophet." But he was either the Son of God, or just another man. Christ could be:

1. A lunatic- he was crazy and had no idea of what he was doing/saying. This does not explain all of the miracles he did.

2. A liar- he knew he wasn't the Son of God. This would make him a hypocrite because he told his followers to do things he himself did not do (worship the one True God). It also made him a fool for dying for something he knew was false.

3. The Lord- everything he said was true. His life, his works, his death, and his resurrection.


--------------------

OTD UNDERDOGS

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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
    #1973222 - 10/02/03 03:03 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

another possibility...
jesus was consciously trying to fulfill the prophesies & expectations of the jewish people concerning the massiach (YHVH's annointed, come to remake the world & redeem israel from its position under rome's iron heel) --- but to jews of the time, being a/the messiah had nothing to to with being the son of god, or with being god incarnate (totally contrary to jewish theology, then or now --- but fairly close to gentile experiences & expectations...)
a lot happened to "that old, old story" between the time that jesus was executed by roman soldiers, hanging on his cross between two zealot revolutionaries, and the council at nicea (and emperor constantine's ascension to the throne of the eastern empire, and his sanction of "christianity" as a state religion (which then went rather quickly from being "acceptable to the state" to being "mandatory for all citizens")...
well...


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care

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OfflineFunguy
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: gnrm23]
    #1973238 - 10/02/03 03:08 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Yet all of Jesus's disciples were Jewish. The Roman Empire did not become "Christian" until about 100 years after Christ's resurrection. And all of the prophecies about Christ in the OT were fulfilled by Christ.
The reason most of the scholars rejected Christ was because they were waiting for a truiphant conqueror who would rebuild Israel by force and trample the "infidel." Instead, a lowly loving servant came, to conquer sin with his life, for us.


--------------------

OTD UNDERDOGS

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
    #1973310 - 10/02/03 03:34 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Funguy said:
You say the Bible is not fallible because:
1. It was written by men, who make mistakes, change the Bible to suit their own beliefs, etc.

Well, for those of you who believe in evolution, have you every specifically witnessed evolution for yourself? Aren't you reading the writings of scientists, who are men themselves? There are less ethical scientists who could "change" the observations they make in order to suit a belief they have. You cannot say the Bible, or parts of it, is false simply because "men wrote it."



I do not say that the Bible is false because men wrote it. I'm saying that it is FALLIBLE because men wrote it, WITHOUT BACKING UP THEIR CLAIMS. See, that's the difference between the Bible, and the writings of scientists. They provide PROOF to back up their claims. The Bible does no such thing. Instead, it says you must believe what they are saying or you will go to Hell. So instead of providing proof, it provides threats.

Quote:

I did not witness any of the events mentioned in the Bible (except for maybe Revelation so far), but yet I believe them. I DO question the Bible, all Christians do once in a while, but I don't question its accuracy.



Question its accuracy as well. Question EVERYTHING.

Quote:

Let's not focus on Christians and what they have done, but Christ himself. He said several times that he came to give life, and give it more abundantly. He came knowing he would sacrifice his life for us sinners. He also knew that the chains of death could not hold him. It is his resurrection that gives us hope for a new life.



Why must we live for some afterlife we have no proof of instead of living in the moment?

Quote:

In my opinion Christ could only be one of three things. Many people say "he was a good man," or "he was a good prophet." But he was either the Son of God, or just another man. Christ could be:

1. A lunatic- he was crazy and had no idea of what he was doing/saying. This does not explain all of the miracles he did.

2. A liar- he knew he wasn't the Son of God. This would make him a hypocrite because he told his followers to do things he himself did not do (worship the one True God). It also made him a fool for dying for something he knew was false.

3. The Lord- everything he said was true. His life, his works, his death, and his resurrection.



Some say Christ spent part of his life(between age 13 and 30) in India. If that is true, then he must have picked up on the Hindu beliefs of the people there. Now, in Hinduism, their concept of God is called the Atman, the all-that-is. In otherwords, God is all things and all people. We are all God. Given this belief, it is easy to say that he is both God and the Son of God, as we all are. Perhaps his disciples misinterpreted this to believe that he alone was God and the Son of God. Haven't you considered the possibility that Christ's followers, even in his own lifetime, may have misinterpreted his message? As for the resurrection, if that is false, then that is not his fault for it being in the Bible, it is the fault of the people writing it down, or the sources they were relying upon. To find an interesting theory on the resurrection, I suggest reading "The Passover Plot" by Hugh J. Schonfield.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1973337 - 10/02/03 03:46 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

So silver...

I do not say that the Bible is false because men wrote it. I'm saying that it is FALLIBLE because men wrote it, WITHOUT BACKING UP THEIR CLAIMS. See, that's the difference between the Bible, and the writings of scientists. They provide PROOF to back up their claims. The Bible does no such thing. Instead, it says you must believe what they are saying or you will go to Hell. So instead of providing proof, it provides threats.

What do you think of the torah codes?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1973342 - 10/02/03 03:49 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

What do you think of the torah codes?



I don't know much about them. Could you explain them to me?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineFunguy
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1973353 - 10/02/03 03:54 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Actually, between the ages of 13-30 he worked with his father Joseph. Jesus did carpentry work, and probably went to what was much like seminary school in his late 20's. It has been shown that Jesus never went to India (I will find evidence to back up my claims).


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OTD UNDERDOGS

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
    #1973359 - 10/02/03 03:55 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I look forward to reading this supposed evidence. Anyway, my point about people misinterpreting what Jesus said still stands.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1973367 - 10/02/03 03:59 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Phew.

Explain the torah codes.

I will admit, there are so many intricacies that Im sure to botch it.

http://membres.lycos.fr/ingold/tcodes.htm This site has a pretty concise explaination.

From what Ive read it's currently a ping pong game between science /mathematics and religion/ mathematics.. neither has proven without a shadow of a doubt that they are correct, but the battle continues and gets more and more intricate.

It's pretty interesting, no matter which side you stand on. Some people think that it is science's proof to God's existance, the ultimate symbol. Some people say, by the same computations Mobey Dick foretells Diana's death, nixon and some other misc. things.. but nobody has every been able to take any work of literature and uncover the true amount of data that has been uncovered in the bible with the codes. The possibility of it being random chance, to me, is the same as your impossibility that Adam and Eve is how life began.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1973407 - 10/02/03 04:09 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Well, how specific are these predictions? Does it say stuff like "so-and-so will die on such-and-such a date" or is it more vague than that? The real question is: Did the writers of the Bible INTEND for these codes to be in there?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1973428 - 10/02/03 04:20 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

PsiloKitten -
No, I haven't been to that site, but will on your suggestion.
Thomas was only known in fragments until the Nag Hammadi find in 1945. It may derive from an early oral tradition that the earliest writer of a Gospel, 'Mark,' may have used. On the other hand:
" We may limit ourselves to the prudent conclusion that the Gospel according to Thomas may well contain elements which are prior to the composition of the synoptic gospels and independent of them; but that the verbal identity with some of the canonical parables makes it probable that it is later than the synoptic gospels, at least in its present form." pp.347-348, The secret Books of the Egyptian Gnostics by J. Doresse

" Finally, as concerns the actual substance of the teaching given here...it is, as it stands, only an apocryphal work to which no real authority can be attributed [!], and even in its very composition is artificial. But bearing this in mind, it is still possible to read this collection and in doing so to be brought into direct and moving contact with a very ancient form of Christianity...Sometimes also we will find in it, veiled in the mysterious language of parables, an original and precise interpretation of passages of the canonical gospels which has appeared obscure to us." Ibid, p. 352

This "very ancient form of Christianity" has for me verified much of the Truth that I found in both Neoplatonic and Indian thought, and given them the Christian 'stamp of approval' so-to-speak. This ancient form has thus allowed me to accept and not reject as false, many years of experience, and has thereby furthered my Christian personal development in ways that the strictly Pauline theology was never able to do for me. It therefore does indeed convey authority - the authority of the ability to become conformed inwardly to the image of Christ.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1973445 - 10/02/03 04:29 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

The writers of the Bible couldnt have intended for those codes to be there.. they had no foreknowledge of the Holocaust or Aids, or the names of the famous Rabbis whose birth and death dates were also incoded. These people came far after any living being that wrote the Bible could have had direct knowledge of. Doron Witztum's "Famous Rabbis Code" was published in a magazine called Statistical Science in 94-- nobody has been able to refute his findings yet, unlike the earlier findings of the Yeshua codes, which although they are indeed there, nothing has been able to prove their significance and many have been able to prove their insignificance with relations to the fact that Koresh is the Messiah, Buddah is the Messiah and etc also appear in the codes.

The odds of Witzum's findings are 62500:1.

If you havent.. you should rent the movie Pi. It touches on this subject as well and is a pretty good movie to boot.


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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1973454 - 10/02/03 04:33 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

There could be something to that, but have they tried using that on other sacred writings? Perhaps the Koran, or the Gospel of Thomas, or the Tibetan Book of the Dead, or the Tao Te Ching also has hidden information? You already mentioned the Moby Dick thing.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1973473 - 10/02/03 04:41 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Markos,
Some of the site is a bit out there for me, but it did originally introduce me to the writings of St. Issa which are very interesting to me. They validate all of the feelings I have about other religions that hasnt been completely revealed to me with the Bible. I feel that it doesnt contradict my beliefs of the truth of the Bible either.

As for Thomas, from your quote you touch on something Im curious about.. from reading Thomas myself it seems in it's form to predate that of the Gospels. Yet the quote says that it can also be thought that it, in its present form, occured later then the synoptic Gospels. Who rewrote Thomas?

Also, do you think that in experience and reading of the Pauline theology, one has the capacity to "conform inwardly to the image of Christ"? Do you feel that the "one" or the "all" can act in our lives in such a way that we can be saved by works alone?



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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1973488 - 10/02/03 04:47 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Yes.

Infact, the Yeshua Codes were used on the Koran and "Mohammed is the Messiah" was evident. Hence why the original hypothesis of the codes by Christian scholars was disproved for their hypothesis.

Then Doron came along and gave us the Rabbi codes.. and they have not been found in comparison with the Koran, war and peace and a plethora of other books (Genesis scrambled, Mobey Dick).. They have been trying to disprove it since 94.. so Id think they would have compared with the books you cited ( perhaps barring the Gospel of Thomas).. but I cannot say for sure other then the ones I listed.

Doron is soon to release a new paper, people are abuzz to hear it's findings.


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OfflineFungi_x
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1973494 - 10/02/03 04:50 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Lets face it, Jesus did it for the chicks.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1973498 - 10/02/03 04:51 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Interesting. Anyway, I fail to see how codes in the Bible predicting the future are any sort of proof the historical accuracy of the creation story and other Biblical claims which contradict the findings of scientific observation.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1973502 - 10/02/03 04:53 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Only GOD Knows who wrote/rewrote Thomas.

Faith without works is dead. We must act, and if we act from our True Center then our faith is alive and well. Lots of do-gooders re acting out of their own egos for a variety of reasons. I learned long ago that being a 'Boy Scout' doesn't get you into Heaven. Having Heaven inside of you makes you into a 'Boy Scout.' When one Knows, one acts accordingly - Compassionately.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1973885 - 10/02/03 06:54 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Lots of do-gooders re acting out of their own egos for a variety of reasons. I learned long ago that being a 'Boy Scout' doesn't get you into Heaven. Having Heaven inside of you makes you into a 'Boy Scout.' When one Knows, one acts accordingly - Compassionately.


so, suppose a person is an atheist, and does good things for their fellow man.

you believe that they are doing it for their ego's.

but the christian who does the same good things does it for something beyond that and therefore is "compassionate"?

correct me if i'm wrong, but thats what i got out of it.

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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: ]
    #1973971 - 10/02/03 07:23 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Compassion is like a Divine Love for all human beings, it is a love that derives from God. Compassionate people act and reason as God would.


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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Zahid]
    #1973984 - 10/02/03 07:26 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

So does someone have to believe in God to act compassionately?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1974000 - 10/02/03 07:35 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Probably not, but through God it's likely easier to be a more loving, compassionate person since He is the ultimate source of love and compassion. But could someone who is seperate from the very source of Divine Love be more compassionate than someone who is living in it?


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InvisibleMilkVein
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Zahid]
    #1974006 - 10/02/03 07:38 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Just to let it be known, I VERY MUCH BELEIVE IN GOD!


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Look at how the time goes past.
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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: ]
    #1974078 - 10/02/03 08:01 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

If one's ego has been 'dethroned' as the center of one's life, and a New Center has been recognized as one's True Center, it is like the pre-Copernican view of the Earth being the center of the universe, and suddenly one realizes that it is the Sun around which the Earth and planets revolve. 'Christ the Center' is the name of a book by a Christian theologian named Dietrich Bonhoffer who was martyred by the Nazis. It speaks to a Transcendental Center around which the Christian allows his/her life to be organized - like a magnet that organizes a random scattering of iron filings from beneath a sheet of paper into symmetrical lines of force.

A Christian acknowledges this 'Ordering Principle,' calls it Lord, or Master, for It/He is the Source of existence, and wishes to be guided by Him. The rewards far outweigh the difficulties, in my own experience.

As far as I can tell, true altruism on the part of an atheist is simply a matter of the atheist being unconscious and unaware of the Source of that altruism in him/her. God also gives existence to the atheist, but the atheist neither acknowledges that Transcendental Source, or seeks to Know It/Him more intimately. Such a person will never Know Who and What [s]he is missing. God is not an idea or an object of belief. God is Ultimate Reality that underlies all of created existence. Atheists that I have known will never be able to know me very well or very deeply because only the core person can know another's core, and atheists are forever alienated from their core because that is the point at which the Spirit of God and the spirit of man interface - but they don't want to go there.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1974084 - 10/02/03 08:05 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

God is Ultimate Reality that underlies all of created existence



That is exactly what I have come to believe through my experience with psychedelics.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1974207 - 10/02/03 08:45 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1975200 - 10/03/03 05:53 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

"laws for living"

If Jesus shows up with "laws for living," I'll kick him to the curb faster than you can say "Jesus, Mary and Joseph!." Whoever the imposter is, it isn't the Living Presence. It isn't 'Freedom for living.' I recommend a nice Catholic monastery for people who want to live by Rules. They are called 'Orders' for very literal reasons. You live according to a Rule, say, 'Poverty, Chastity, Obedience, [and sometimes Silence].' You have a rigid regime of private prayer, communal prayer, eating time, working time, sleeping time, and a Superior who tells you what you must do to grow spiritually. You might consider giving up all of your existential freedom so you can be free of having to think or do for yourself, free from social obligations, and free from Freedom.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
    #1975723 - 10/03/03 09:50 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Funguy said:
2. A liar- he knew he wasn't the Son of God. This would make him a hypocrite because he told his followers to do things he himself did not do (worship the one True God). It also made him a fool for dying for something he knew was false.




Well, so yeah, maybe he just like thought he was the Son of God and everything, but maybe he actually wasn't. And, I mean, maybe the son of Odin had more power than him, anyways, what are ya gonna do?

By the way, your three options for who Jesus Christ was, like they were worded the exact same way as you posted them in some other post a few weeks back. Are the thoughts in your head really that ordered and memorized so throughly, like having to recite from the Small Catchesim for Confirmation? (god, I remember doing that. don't remember a one).

Quote:


Actually, between the ages of 13-30 he worked with his father Joseph. Jesus did carpentry work, and probably went to what was much like seminary school in his late 20's. It has been shown that Jesus never went to India (I will find evidence to back up my claims).




If you can find evidence that Jesus never went to India, could you find any evidence on the fact that Jesus of Nazareth did indeed say everything he did for the motivations the Bible gets across? Reminds me of The Simpsons, the one where Lisa found out that Jebediah Springfield was actually some pirate that tried to kill George Washington and had a silver tounge, not like the revered hero and town founder that everyone held him as...

If you remember right, Lisa decided to let the ignorant stay ignorant because then everyone would remain happy...
Peace.


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1975875 - 10/03/03 10:49 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

"As far as I can tell, true altruism on the part of an atheist is simply a matter of the atheist being unconscious and unaware of the Source of that altruism in him/her. God also gives existence to the atheist, but the atheist neither acknowledges that Transcendental Source, or seeks to Know It/Him more intimately. Such a person will never Know Who and What [s]he is missing. God is not an idea or an object of belief. God is Ultimate Reality that underlies all of created existence. Atheists that I have known will never be able to know me very well or very deeply because only the core person can know another's core, and atheists are forever alienated from their core because that is the point at which the Spirit of God and the spirit of man interface - but they don't want to go there. "

Phhht.

Our outlooks on reality differ completely, and it may be fair to say an agnostic will never fully understand yours, but it's pretty arrogant to claim that you understand the other outlook perfectly, and that it's inferior. Could it be that they have an understanding of something you will never know?


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Zahid]
    #1975899 - 10/03/03 10:55 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

All this contraversy over god and 'he' being the ultimate power int he universe yadda yadda yadda.. How many times has this been discussed? How many times have YOU personally had this conversation with someone? It's the same never-ending vicious circle.. the same facts keep getting brought up, and the same opinions sometimes change, but generally stay the same.

WHO CARES IF CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS - The bottom line is it's written in some book that's older than a lot of stuff we have - whether he died for our sins or not, there was some guy named Jesus that had a good way of looking at things way back in the day. Obviously his work was for nothing 'cause look at where shit stands today (on the global scale). The muslims are still startin' shit in the middle east, we have people like bush in the whitehouse, and rather than us, people who put thought into what we decide to do, going out and helping change the world, you're all sitting here bickering about whether some guy hung from a plus sign back in the day. Christians are Christians because they accept things without proof - those who question generally don't stick at christianity very long unless they were brought up as such.
My point is, religon gets us no where. When will some of you realise that?


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No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.

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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Phluck]
    #1975903 - 10/03/03 10:56 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Markos said:
As far as I can tell, true altruism on the part of an atheist is simply a matter of the atheist being unconscious and unaware of the Source of that altruism in him/her. God also gives existence to the atheist, but the atheist neither acknowledges that Transcendental Source, or seeks to Know It/Him more intimately. Such a person will never Know Who and What [s]he is missing. God is not an idea or an object of belief. God is Ultimate Reality that underlies all of created existence. Atheists that I have known will never be able to know me very well or very deeply because only the core person can know another's core, and atheists are forever alienated from their core because that is the point at which the Spirit of God and the spirit of man interface - but they don't want to go there.





Indubiantly. I am connected at the moment, man (partially due to this " :stash:", but mostly due to its effects on my mind), and what you are saying rings true.

The Here and Now Experience has never been better. Now I must refill my wild berry juice.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1975996 - 10/03/03 11:27 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

"As far as I can tell, true altruism on the part of a non-addict is simply a matter of the non-addict being unaware of the power and beauty that lies within junk. Junk is fully available to the non-addict, but he doesn't seek it out, and doesn't even seem to care about its power. Such a person will never what he is missing. Addiction is not a lifestyle or a belief. Junk is Ultimate Pleasure that waits for all who are willing."

I try to avoid junk in any form. I'm sure I could believe myself into a magical flurry of joy and love or whatever, but I'd rather think than believe.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1976353 - 10/03/03 01:05 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1976471 - 10/03/03 01:41 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

"Unless a man works he shall not eat food."

Is it okay to feed someone who has been paralyzed in an accident?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Phluck]
    #1976595 - 10/03/03 02:28 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

some Christians are a little wacked out, you know?? i saw some at a camp this summer where i was camping w/ my friends and they walked around with bibles and they got mad when we swore and they liked really gay music and they couldn't possibly ever have any good fun.

i mean, really, do you want to live your life like that? i guess its cool if you like it but most of these kids have been brainwashed since birth by thier parents to believe all of this is good and that is fucked up. let these kids make their own damn decisions!!!

plus, some of those girls were hot and that is just a waste right there.


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ca'rouse (k-rouz)
intr.v.
To engage in boisterous, drunken merrymaking.

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Invisiblechunder
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: TODAY]
    #1976646 - 10/03/03 02:41 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

This thread is one of the best examples of the inadequecies of our language that I've ever seen. So many words that have so many different meanings are just being tossed around like universal and static truths. Its sad really.

Not much of anything is being communicated, just a bunch of vague and subjective banter.

I suppose theres nothing to be done about it, we can only work with what we have. It just makes me sad that we can't share and communicate to a fuller degree. We need new linguistic tools, thats for sure.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: nubious]
    #1976801 - 10/03/03 03:22 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)


All this contraversy over god and 'he' being the ultimate power int he universe yadda yadda yadda.. How many times has this been discussed? How many times have YOU personally had this conversation with someone? It's the same never-ending vicious circle.. the same facts keep getting brought up, and the same opinions sometimes change, but generally stay the same.


I'm just discussing God here - the title of the thread is called 'Christ died for our sins?'. In no way am I projecting my views of God on anyone here, like I may have did a year ago. Frankly, I find it hypocritical when some people here say 'Christianity is stupid' and discuss their own ideas how religion is foolish, et cet era; and then everyone jumps on someone if they utter "Ultimate Reality". In the humble exchange of ideas, I am going to assert that God is in fact Ultimate Reality, and He's eternally there and everywhere, and it doesn't take that much energy at all acknowledge His Presence. For people who don't believe in God, they essentially don't need God and thus will never know Him - that's what 'Hell' is, the lack of the presence of God. For me that is more terrifying than any Hellfire surah or Brimstone verse. The face of Love as we know it is everywhere, and to some extent everyone has the ability to know this because we're all made up of god-stuff.


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Anonymous

Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Zahid]
    #1977044 - 10/03/03 04:31 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

The face of Love as we know it is everywhere, and to some extent everyone has the ability to know this because we're all made up of god-stuff.

i am made up of organic molecules.

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Phluck]
    #1977652 - 10/03/03 09:55 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

No. The Transcendental perspective is 'higher,' which is to say inclusive of perspectives that the agnostic does not access. I recommend that you read some Ken Wilber to get a sense of 'The great Chain of Being.' The 'higher' one climbs, the further one sees, is about the simplest way of putting this.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1977666 - 10/03/03 10:01 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Yes, yes, and in my, um, best Woody Allenesque way, perhaps you've heard this one: 'Remove the large stick from thy rectum gently, lest thou suffer splinters.'


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1977704 - 10/03/03 10:17 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

The 'higher' one climbs, the further one sees, is about the simplest way of putting this.


and whos to say that the rung of "faith in god" isn't below the man who can rid himself of all beliefs and false ideals?

as the theist looks to god for his problems and finds hope in his bible, the atheist looks at himself, he sees nature for all it can be seen and the experience of life as something more grand than he can ever imagine, or HOPE to understand.

as the theist prays to god for his OWN salvation, the atheist looks at humanity's problems and wonders why we can't step forward and find something greater... use our mental power and faith in eachother to achieve great things.

still the theist sits in church on sunday, very content that he is going to heaven, and praying to god everynight for his soul... ever caring about his soul, and his own path to eternity.

when we try to look past ourselves, maybe we can find joy in our one experience here on earth, and maybe see the beauty in that... realize that this world is whatever we make it, and the thoughts that go into building it are never ending and limitless.

but not, the theist would rather pick up a 2000 year old book and say "this is it, the answer!"..

how sad that we must limit ourselves in such a way, its true, the theist sees only himself and god, and misses the grand picture of what is true and rational... the theist cannot see what is in front of him, because he is so deluded into hope, idols, and saviors.


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Offlinejoeshitragpicker
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Zahid]
    #1978093 - 10/04/03 12:46 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Your beleif system is no better/worse than mine; because when it comes down to it, the only thing we really know is that we are these animals floating on a ball in space. Period.
Everything anyone says is pure speculation. All thiscomes from language; which is nothing more than a construct of our imagination; language itself limits the individual when they attempt to explain God to another human.
Anyone saying anything derogatory about anothers belief system/percieved core of who they are has obviously not come to this conclusion, which means they deny reality.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: TODAY]
    #1978480 - 10/04/03 04:30 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

TODAY said:
plus, some of those girls were hot and that is just a waste right there. 




Like Maude Flanders, before she died?

Hehe, like the Simpsons episode I watched today, The Simpsons constructed a massive puzzle and Flanders looks over his fence and says "Hey, Homer, it looks like your puzzle is missing a piece", and Homer's all like "Hey Flanders, it looks like you are missing your wife", and Flanders says "Yeah, I guess I did sort of walk into that one":

Now, as The Simpsons is a grand reflection of human nature and life, I do believe it was Flanders that buried all of his anger instead of dealing with it, in the true brainwashed sort of way, and eventually exploded...
Or something.

I notice sometimes when I am laying down in bed at night, just totally relaxing and zoning out, all it takes is one memory of something from the Simpsons to set off all sorts of thoughts from all the episodes I have seen.. sometimes like Bart's voice will say something that he never said in any episode, just something my brain made him say, or somebody else.. and it just goes on and on.... :grin: Insane, eh?
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1978597 - 10/04/03 07:50 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: ]
    #1978879 - 10/04/03 11:47 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

"and whos to say that the rung of "faith in god" isn't below the man who can rid himself of all beliefs and false ideals?

as the theist looks to god for his problems and finds hope in his bible, the atheist looks at himself, he sees nature for all it can be seen and the experience of life as something more grand than he can ever imagine, or HOPE to understand. "


:thumbup: :thumbup:


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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OfflineZahid
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1979737 - 10/04/03 07:23 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I seen a book somewhere called The Gospels According to the Simpsons. I have no idea what it would be about, though.


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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Zahid]
    #1979742 - 10/04/03 07:25 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I have a book called The Simpsons and Philosophy. I'd reccommend it to anyone new to philosophy. Sorry for getting off-topic. I just had to throw that in there.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineZahid
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: joeshitragpicker]
    #1979751 - 10/04/03 07:32 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

joeshitragpicker said:
Your beleif system is no better/worse than mine; because when it comes down to it, the only thing we really know is that we are these animals floating on a ball in space. Period.
Everything anyone says is pure speculation. All thiscomes from language; which is nothing more than a construct of our imagination; language itself limits the individual when they attempt to explain God to another human.
Anyone saying anything derogatory about anothers belief system/percieved core of who they are has obviously not come to this conclusion, which means they deny reality.




As a human being I am equal to all mankind. In no way do my beliefs make me better than others. They only serve to enhance my own personal being by letting me have a relationship with Allah. Some Atheists, in my opinion are guilty too of fundamentalism. I've seen alot of atheists arrogantly flaunt the fact that they're "too intelligent to believe in God", ridiculing anyone humble enough to admit there's a higher power, et cet era. At the same time I've met atheists who personally don't give a damn about the beliefs of others and their own and thus keep to themselves.


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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1979752 - 10/04/03 07:33 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

:thumbup: 


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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Zahid]
    #1979775 - 10/04/03 07:48 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Hi. Do you accept someone to be honestly a catholic christian and still accepting the teachings of the muslim religion? (As far as a Hungarian catholic believer knows and understands muslim)

On-topic, understanding the role of Jesus and his humanly path was way the most "difficult" thing for me as a christian. That means, that for a long time I just didn't understand what this all jesus-crusifying-savior - thing means. When I understood what pisces changing to aquarious means, I understood the role of jesus as a human as well (I am an aquarious, my mother is pisces :smile: and as soon as I really understood the role of humility, I understood trinity. (More than before).

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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Siphersh]
    #1979813 - 10/04/03 08:13 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Hi. Do you accept someone to be honestly a catholic christian and still accepting the teachings of the muslim religion? (As far as a Hungarian catholic believer knows and understands muslim)

What's wrong with tolerance?

Karol Wojtyla himself even kissed a copy of The Holy Qur'an and declared that God's love extends to people outside the Church, including Muslims.


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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Zahid]
    #1979820 - 10/04/03 08:19 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

God's love extends to everybody, that is why Jesus came to Earth to live among us and die for us.  :heartpump:


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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
    #1979825 - 10/04/03 08:25 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Why did Jesus have to die for us in order for God to love us?


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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
    #1979840 - 10/04/03 08:35 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Funguy said:
God's love extends to everybody, that is why Jesus came to Earth to live among us and die for us.  :heartpump: 




Salaam Funguy (interesting play on words, :smile: )

Of course (although I'm not sure what at all happened to Jesus when he died - and I do believe he physically died which is contrary to the Qur'anic account that he was 'snatched' from the physical world), but in the good faith of other religions, His love extends to them too. Whether it's a Christian teenager crying joyfully at a Christian rock concert, an old Muslim woman crying at the Kaaba after performing Hajj for the first time in her 70 years, a Hindu praying and fasting in a secluded area of the Eastern Ghats, or an observing Jew praying at Wailing Wall - we all remember the Almighty, and He remembers us. 


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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Zahid]
    #1979846 - 10/04/03 08:38 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

You ask, 'what's wrong with tolerance'...

Uh... I havent read the whole thread, but it must have been quite a rough ride that you get my question that critisistic... It was a question.

I am a person of radical catholic faith, who believes that the ultimate question is if you accept a godly presence behind the most basic presence or not; and still believes, that even buddhism is equivalent in validity with christianity...

I asked about your perspective on this tolerant radicalism...

Yes, the Church is opening toward the religions of the world. It's as if the Dalai Lama and the Vatican were competing on the extent of tolerance... :-)

One God -- One God -- One Truth -- One Law...

O, why do we seperete humanity this forcefully? We will never unite in the Father until we unite in ourselves.

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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Siphersh]
    #1979855 - 10/04/03 08:42 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Sorry, I misunderstood you.

Can you elaborate on "tolerant radicalism"?

Hi. Do you accept someone to be honestly a catholic christian and still accepting the teachings of the muslim religion? (As far as a Hungarian catholic believer knows and understands muslim)

Wouldn't that just make them a moderate Catholic? My traditional understanding of what a 'radical' is, is someone intolerant of the faiths and beliefs of others. 'Liberal' and 'Conservative' has so many sets of beliefs though. I suppose you are right, as I view the Pope as a Conservative Catholic - yet he's no Pat Robertson.

A fine line between religious fundamentalistism and liberalism? It's hard to determine. In Irshad Manji's book she speaks of 'liberal' Muslims who still believe Shari'ah is perfect - when Islamic Law itself is neither sanctioned by the Qur'an or the Prophet Muhammad.


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Edited by Zahid (10/04/03 08:56 PM)

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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Zahid]
    #1979856 - 10/04/03 08:42 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Truth is that what you speak.

I believe that if you find contradictions between christian, hindu or buddhist truths, you must have misunderstood the teaching. :-)


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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1979870 - 10/04/03 08:47 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

God loves us anyway. It's like the soil offering nutrients to the plant, and the plant accepts, or rejects it. Jesus Christ reopened the possibility of this connection.

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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Siphersh]
    #1979874 - 10/04/03 08:48 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

One need not believe other religions to be equally true in order to be tolerant of other religions. One must only accept the possibility that they could be wrong. Of course, there are some aspects of certain religions that are clearly wrong(such as the creationism) which we don't need to accept as valid because they contradict scientific fact. We must be tolerant, but not to the extent that we turn a blind eye to reason.


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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Siphersh]
    #1979889 - 10/04/03 08:52 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Siphersh said:
Truth is that what you speak.

I believe that if you find contradictions between christian, hindu or buddhist truths, you must have misunderstood the teaching. :-)

 




I definately agree.

How many vines does one tree have?  :cool: 


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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Zahid]
    #1979897 - 10/04/03 08:55 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Er... Many peaople try to synthesize religions by blending them, and creating an average "none-of-them" in their minds. I believe, that no one religion has to give up anything of its most radical identity to be correspondig to the One Truth and to accept other religions as corresponding to the One Truth just as well.

Well... I mean those religions which fucus on the One Truth. Of course there are pieces of existence called "religion", which are not focused on the One Truth. Animism, for example, or Taoism. I do not mean those. They do not say anything about the One Truth, so they are not that "difficult" to accept.

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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Zahid]
    #1979903 - 10/04/03 08:58 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Every single human person is a seperate branch of the tree of life, and thus has an individual path finding back to the original connection to the roots. :-)

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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Siphersh]
    #1979904 - 10/04/03 09:00 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Well, it's when people start assuming who's saved and who isn't is when problems arise. I personally view Christians who see Muslims as unsaved as intolerant - and vise versa for Muslims who believe Christians and Jews [don't even mention non-high religions - every Muslim and their mother denounces these] are unsaved unless they convert to Islam.

One Love, a Million and One good intentions. :smile: 


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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Zahid]
    #1979911 - 10/04/03 09:03 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

"Radical" is a bad word. Right. I used it in its original meaning. "Of the roots"... sorry, I have ignored its bad connotations...

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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1979929 - 10/04/03 09:14 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Acceptance, tolerance, belief... hm... The point of saying something about the One Truth is that you talk about something that is absolute in validity. Saying "you are wrong and go to hell, but I still love you, and tolerate you" is not an honestly christly perspective. And if something is in contradiction with my belief, I cannot say "I dont know if it's right", for that would invalidate my own belief. Being christian means this sometimes-unconvenient inliberalism. It's no big deal tolerating buddhism, if you are not a real fundamentalist christian. Seeing the "One" in "One Truth" is much deeper than being liberal towards all religions.

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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Zahid]
    #1979942 - 10/04/03 09:21 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

It's just so unreal, that most christians _know_ that 'you shouldnt judge' (sorry if uncorrect formulated), and still they believe, that they deserve a certain amount of judgement on others... This is the most ridiculous aspect of being a not-christly christian... "I do not judge, I just say my opinion". I am not perfect either, but I would never try to justify my deeds that do not correspond with the Teaching

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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1979953 - 10/04/03 09:28 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
I'm having trouble figuring out exactly what Christians mean when they say Christ died for our sins. So does that mean all our sins are forgiven? If that's the case, then why would anyone not go to heaven?




i think (but i'm not sure, as i havent studied the bible)
that they mean , he came down from heaven to suffer all these horrible things, in order to teach us whats right

which is true in the terms of hinduism and mahatmas (saints, great souls)

They say the cycle of birth and death (and rebirth) is out of our karma... so to break the cycle and return to our source, we wouldnt have to be reborn anymore...

which makes sense that when an avatar takes the body, its out of love to teach the people...

I heard a story ;

There was this big wall on the edge of a town...and people would try to get up but no one would ever get over it... and people kept trying and trying....finally a person made it up after like 4 months... and when he got ontop he said "Ah!..." and hopped over never to be seen again

finally 3 or 4 months later, another person got up... and he looked for a few seconds and said "wow" and then went right over....well after 2 months, one of the guys came back and said "there is a beautiful garden with tree's and fruit and all the food you can eat! Here, give me your hand and I will help you up"


thats what a saint is... a living roll model... The ego prevents so many people from benefiting and actually searching for these people because they think that its not possible. Or I think they feel (perhaps subconciously) that its a personal attack on them, somone who people says is pure and wise...

I want everybody just to consider the possibility that jesus - or buddha - or perhaps the source of them both... has already 'return'ed and exists breathing the same air we do right now... in human form

isnt that an interesting idea?

I beleive with all of my being that this is so.


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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Rastafari]
    #1979983 - 10/04/03 09:44 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

"Christ died for our sins"... there is a surface of this truth, which is not easy to understand, for it was explained 2000 years ago, and cultura-lingual reality has changed a lot since then. I think that the point is that he _is_ the gate back to connection, and by his human life it bacame possible for us to connect back. The connection is the holy spirit, which he brought us.

I think that most of the obstacles to understand this might be of nearly 2000 years of changing language. We do not know the actual correspondense between our reality, and the symbolics of that ancient language, the bible was written. Eat some mushrooms, and try to find out directly, without the mediation of language... :-)

But it might have a deeper, mystical meaning, or a meaning related to history, and the fulfillment of God's plan, or something like that...

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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1981165 - 10/05/03 11:55 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Why did Jesus have to die for us in order for God to love us?





No, it's not like that. Jesus died BECAUSE God loved us. He wants us to live in Heaven with him, so he offered us a free gift of salvation.
Yes, a tree has many branches, but if one doesn't bear fruit, do you let it stay on the tree? Or do you prune it, allowing more nutrients to go to the fruiting branches.

"Also I say to you, whoever confesses Me before men, him the Son o Man also will confess before the angels of God. But he who denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God." Luke 12:8-9

"And Jesus said to them, 'I am the bread of life. He who cmes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you tha have seen Me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to me I will by no means cast out.'" John 6:35-37

"He who believes in Me, believes not in Me but in Him who sent Me. And he who sees Me sees Him who sent Me. I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness. And if anyone hears my words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him- the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. And I know that His command is everlasting life." John 12: 44b-50a


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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
    #1981195 - 10/05/03 12:03 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Question: Why would God offer only one route to salvation? Why must we believe in something unproven rather than simply acting compassionately towards our fellow man? Wouldn't it be better to act in a Christ-like manner than to simply believe in Jesus Christ? The whole salvation-through-faith thing seems like a practical joke to me.


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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
    #1981200 - 10/05/03 12:06 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

?snooze?... ?falls asleep? ?dreams about clouds floating by?....
:grin:
Peace.


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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1981223 - 10/05/03 12:20 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Question: Why would God offer only one route to salvation? Why must we believe in something unproven rather than simply acting compassionately towards our fellow man? Wouldn't it be better to act in a Christ-like manner than to simply believe in Jesus Christ? The whole salvation-through-faith thing seems like a practical joke to me.




faith can be interpreted many different ways

but yea, your right... people like jesus/ buddha came as roll models so we would also do good deeds... thats much more important than simply saying I beleive in the one who does good

but faith is a little different than just saying that...and can have many different meanings

also, the only one route to salvation - is something that I beleive was added into the bible at later times, to scare people into their religions, out of greed and whatnot...


but all religions, including christianity if you read the bible enough - talk about all acceptance, love, humility, non judgment

its simply not possible that before christ was born - the people who strived to alleviate suffering in the world, were born, and died in sin... that is impossible, therefor Buddha was the previous incarnation of Jesus, and there has been many many inbetween, before and since

its our own true nature I beleive



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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Rastafari]
    #1981405 - 10/05/03 01:24 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

"Why must we believe in something unproven rather than simply acting compassionately towards our fellow man? Wouldn't it be better to act in a Christ-like manner than to simply believe in Jesus Christ?"

The problem is righteousness. God can not look at ANY unrighteousness since God is perfectly Holy. The law must be kept perfectly perfect. Anything less than perfect kindles God's wrath. Jesus Christ obeyed every demand of the law, and satisfied the wrath of the broken law, on His peoples behalf. Thereby establishing a righteousness for them and ensuring their justification and finally their glorification. To assert that a person can bring deeds acceptable to God, outside of Christ ALONE, reveals a false understanding who God is, and is idolatry. Idolators, those who have created a false image of God, are hated of God, since they dishonor every attribute of Himself, and worship the vanity of their own imaginations. This is why there is only one way, since all other ways are an abomination.


"The whole salvation-through-faith thing seems like a practical joke to me."

The natural man can not understand things of the Spirit and it is looked upon as foolishness. The Fall left every person in a state of spiritual deadness, unable to know the True God, blinded by his own blindness.

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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: fivepointer]
    #1981418 - 10/05/03 01:29 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Heh, fivepointer, nice campfire-type scary story! God's wrath.. heh. Really scared the hell out of me! :grin:

Then, of course, I realized that you actually believe in what you just said, and then I sort of shook my head in dismay... I feel truly sorry for you, man.
Peace.


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I wouldn't fear
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1981448 - 10/05/03 01:40 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Question: Why would God offer only one route to salvation? Why must we believe in something unproven rather than simply acting compassionately towards our fellow man? Wouldn't it be better to act in a Christ-like manner than to simply believe in Jesus Christ? The whole salvation-through-faith thing seems like a practical joke to me.





Truthfully, I don't know. I am not God so I cannot speak of why he only offered one route to salvation. I don't know everything, so I cannot answer every single question you ask. But I believe in what the Bible says, and what I witness in every day life. I will always be here for all of you, so if you ever do begin to believe, I help you. No matter what you decide, I still love you an so does Christ.

PS- being a TRUE Christian makes you want to act in a Christ like manner because we have Christ in our heart. Why does salvation through faith seem like a practical joke? Does it seem just too easy for some people? There is evidence to back up the Bible, if you are willing to look. I have plenty of books that I would gladly send to you, if you will actually sit down and read them. Peace Silversoul7, and may God guide and act upon your heart with love and compassion.


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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
    #1981532 - 10/05/03 02:17 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Why does salvation through faith seem like a practical joke?



Because it doesn't allow for skeptical inquiry. We can't doubt the story of Jesus or we will be condemned to Hell. If God gave us the gift of reason, why won't he allow us to use it in this instance? It seems unfair to condemn us to Hell for demanding proof.

What if I told you that I am God, and if you don't believe me, you will burn in Hell? Would you believe me? What if I was right? How would you know? Would you be willing to take that chance?


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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1981613 - 10/05/03 03:05 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Doubt- to be uncertain about.

Disbelief- the inability or refusal to believe or to accept something as true.

I wouldn't disbelieve you, but I would doubt and in doing so, research to find out whether or not your statements are true.  But like I said, I'm not going to pretend that I have all the answers. 
But of course, the Bible (in general) is very, very old.  If God was truly going to talk to me, I don't think he would do it over the internet. :grin:


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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
    #1981634 - 10/05/03 03:13 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Doubt- to be uncertain about.

Disbelief- the inability or refusal to believe or to accept something as true.




So is it ok to doubt Jesus' divinity, or that he saves? Is it ok that I'm uncertain about these things? Will I still be saved if I am still uncertain about these things when I die?

Quote:

If God was truly going to talk to me, I don't think he would do it over the internet.



Why? You don't think God keeps up with modern technology?


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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1981700 - 10/05/03 03:43 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Well, just try to make up your mind before you die. But remember, we are not promised our next breath. Everybody may have a "last chance" kinda thing when they die, I don't know (I've never died). There are sometimes when I doubt my faith, but I always see something that restores it. But I'll always be praying for you.

Yes, God does keep up with modern technology, but I doubt if he uses it. But like I said, who knows?


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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1981728 - 10/05/03 03:54 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

The whole of your life is going to be a testimony as to whether you are transformed by GOD into a Christ-filled or Christ-like man. That transformation will only take place if you say 'Yea' to being transformed. Obviously your answer is 'Nay,' so your spiritual eye will not be able to perceive the Truth about The Way, as embodied in the Christ, because one's spiritual sight is of the "inner man" as St. Paul calls it, and this is where GOD and man interface.

Hell, though depicted in the language of myth, is alienantion from GOD, and that is a meaningless statement because you do not experience GOD in your day-to-day life. You live the life of the "natural man," which perishes, but not the life of 'the "inner man" which does not, but which experiences GOD here and now, during dying, and after the body-mind is dead. The post-mortem condition is a continuation of one's spiritual life in this life. Being alienated from GOD here and now will continue, according to Christian metaphysics, which IS Hell. It is not merely a matter of what you think and say in a moment - it is a matter of living your entire life based upon a radical error.

Now, if you are what the Gnostic Christians call a Sarkic - one who identifies only with the 'sarx,' flesh, i.e., the natural man, and if you have no interest in experiencing the higher parts of your nature - the Transcendental aspect through which Life animates us, then perhaps you should not bother to dialogue with others in these matters. On the other hand, some people are given to be missionaries for their faith, and will reach out to you. Still others have been raised to believe a very distorted message of Hell-fire and brimstone (for which the world can thank that author known as Matthew) - and believe that they can frighten one into Love of God [Truth, Reality]. This only works with very young gullible children and mental deficients, so this approach is itself childish and mentally deficient (not to mention morally wrong, out of Biblical context) and can be simply disregarded without getting insulted. You, however, who has no faith in faith, as a means of apprehending Ultimate Reality should understand that the rational mind and sense data cannot approach aspects of Existence that transcend reason (Transrational). You are trying to carry water in a fishing net.


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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1981802 - 10/05/03 04:42 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

You speak as tho I don't believe in God. If you read my posts on this forum, you will find that I do, in fact, believe in God, but not as some personal entity, but rather as being the essence of existence itself--the ultimate reality. And I do live my life based on this belief.

However, here is a list of Christian beliefs of which I am still skeptical:
--that the Bible is infallible(actually, I'm fairly certain it's not)
--that human beings were created out of nothing rather than evolving from other species
--that Noah took two of every species and got them to fuck on a boat
--that Jesus was born of a virgin
--that Jesus was the only son of God(since God is the ultimate reality, in a sense we are all God's children)
--that Jesus was the Messiah(the Messiah was supposed to bring peace on earth, but that clearly hasn't happened)
--that Jesus came back from the dead(read "The Passover Plot")
--that believing all of this is the only way to salvation
--that there is even a need for this so-called "salvation"


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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1981828 - 10/05/03 04:55 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I see said the blind man. :smile:

It is alot like Fana-fi al-Meahboob where a person's identity becomes annihilated in God's Eternal Presence. One particular Arif (I don't remember his name) described it as everything being small, simple sources of light such as a candle, for example that becomes completely drowned out as the Sun slowly rises, engulfing all light into its own. Some mystic shaykhs have said one has to experience this in order to grow spiritually. Once a person loses his/herself into the reality of God and becomes of Allah, they act and use their own logic as Allah does. Hazrat Khwaja Gharib Nawaz of Ajmer said, "You must give up greed and avarice. Those who have done so have reached their goal. Tajrid involves remaining alone even in the midst of a crowd." I take this as a spiritual development in Islam (Tazkiya-e-Nafs) that is similiar the Christian imitation of Christ that is best described by St. Iraeneus Lyon as "God made Himself a man so that man could become Him" or something like that. But to be perfectly honest, while obtaining a Christ-like (or Allah-like) reasoning is definately fulfilling, it seems the majority of people are unable to realize the logic of God, and instead confine themselves to basic religious laws - I mean, perhaps most people need this kind of legalistic faith. This is how I've always formed my 'theology' of Islam, a religion whos spiritual focal point is a Book, instead of a living, breathing, human being. Jesus spoke in parables, as I understand speaking to the masses about a God-oriented way of living, while in private telling people about the metaphysical reality of God, and His reasoning. This parable doesn't seem to exist at all in Islam, except for a handful of verses in the Qur'an that have no interpretation except esoteric ones (verses that I believe are virtually misunderstood by the majority of Muslims). Since God is not a book, it seems spiritual Muslims have no choice but to dive right into the ocean of mystery directly. Perhaps Law and Spirit is just a balance of things. :cool:


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Edited by Zahid (10/05/03 04:57 PM)

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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1981846 - 10/05/03 05:01 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
However, here is a list of Christian beliefs of which I am still skeptical:
--that the Bible is infallible(actually, I'm fairly certain it's not)
--that human beings were created out of nothing rather than evolving from other species
--that Noah took two of every species and got them to fuck on a boat
--that Jesus was born of a virgin
--that Jesus was the only son of God(since God is the ultimate reality, in a sense we are all God's children)
--that Jesus was the Messiah(the Messiah was supposed to bring peace on earth, but that clearly hasn't happened)
--that Jesus came back from the dead(read "The Passover Plot")
--that believing all of this is the only way to salvation
--that there is even a need for this so-called "salvation" 




How many times does Markos have to make reference to John Shelby Spong? :smile:

Any religion is just an idea that pertains to what is otherwise completely unknown to the majority of humans - because they can't know, it would cause anarchy in my opinion.


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Edited by Zahid (10/05/03 05:08 PM)

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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Zahid]
    #1981986 - 10/05/03 06:15 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

>God can not look at ANY unrighteousness since God is perfectly Holy.<

Are we talking about the same omnipotent God here? If so, how can an omnipotent being (that is, one that is capable of doing anything) be uncapable of doing something? If God is unable to look at any unrighteousness then God is not omnipotent. The rest of your reasoning would sort of crumble after that, wouldn't it?

>Then, of course, I realized that you actually believe in what you just said, and then I sort of shook my head in dismay... I feel truly sorry for you, man.<

That's a pretty shitty thing to say, I think. You probably mean no offense, but still are you that arrogant to assume your beliefs somehow fall under a better reasoning system than his?

>If God gave us the gift of reason, why won't he allow us to use it in this instance?<

Void argument; you've contradicted yourself. He (assuming God exists) allowed you to use reason when you formulated that question.

>It seems unfair to condemn us to Hell for demanding proof.<

I would agree, but I'm also an admittedly-arrogant bastard. :wink: Seriously though, maybe things like this transcend physics, logics, reason, and proof? Maybe there are just some things which are stronger than "proof". Don't ask me what they are; I'm just making a supposition. All I'm saying is just because *you* don't understand why someone does something doesn't mean they don't have a good reason.

I see it as this: if God exists as the Christians say he exist, and he condemns people to Hell for denying his existence, then I don't think you can judge that. Judging God would be like judging gravity. ("Who the FUCK has the audacity to prevent ME from floating off into the air, huh??") If God is real and the aforementioned way is the way he really conducts business, then that simply is how it works. Saying he is wrong is void and null, for it can never be a truth; HE CREATED RIGHT AND WRONG, and he defines those things. (All assuming God exists here, BTW.)

>So is it ok to doubt Jesus' divinity, or that he saves? Is it ok that I'm uncertain about these things? Will I still be saved if I am still uncertain about these things when I die?<

I think you're asking questions which we here at the Shroomery (or any other place in the world for that matter) have no capablity of answering. Read the Bible yourself and conclude these answers on what your take of it all is.


I think there are just too many people running around judging others' beliefs when they have absolutely no place to. Believe what you want, and share your beliefs with others if it's the right place, but don't be so arrogant that you insist your way to believing something is the only correct way. (I'm not really talking to anyone in particular here; it's just in my experience in debating this topic there's a lot of these people out there.) People often tell me they base their insults on others' beliefs on the fact that those beliefs have no founding in logic; the thing is everyone has faith in something; there is nothing that you can hold as an absolute truth except that YOU exist and that YOU perceive. I know that I exist; it is self-evident. I assume there is a monitor in front of me, for I perceive it. I have faith that I am typing this message to other entities who also exist (Shroomrites), but I can never KNOW if this is true. If people would keep these things in mind when regarding religion, I think we wouldn't have half the bad things in this world that we do today. Of course, this *is* humanity; I wouldn't put it past us. :wink: 

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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Hillbillie]
    #1982046 - 10/05/03 06:41 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Hillbillie said:
>God can not look at ANY unrighteousness since God is perfectly Holy.<

Are we talking about the same omnipotent God here? If so, how can an omnipotent being (that is, one that is capable of doing anything) be uncapable of doing something? If God is unable to look at any unrighteousness then God is not omnipotent. The rest of your reasoning would sort of crumble after that, wouldn't it?





Yes God is omnipotent, but he views sin as we would view a horrible stench. Would you want to be in a room that smelled of rotting flesh? This is how he views sin.
The only thing I am trying to get through (whether you believe it or not) is that even though God views sin with disgust, he willingly let his son die for us (sinners). He did this so we may live with him for eternity.
This may be the ultimate truth, it may not be. I only believe what I think is the truth. If I am wrong, I don't really have much to lose.


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OTD UNDERDOGS

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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
    #1982081 - 10/05/03 06:59 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

>Yes God is omnipotent, but he views sin as we would view a horrible stench. Would you want to be in a room that smelled of rotting flesh? This is how he views sin.<

Ah, okay...so he really could if he wanted to just as we could view a horrible stench, but like us he chooses not to? Thanks for clearing it up. :smile:

I'd also like to say that I'm an agnostic deist, but I'm completely open to all of the faiths in the world.

I'd also like to say that some days I believe in God and others I'm back to my agnostical self. If God does exist, I believe there not to be a Hell, though there probably (hopefully) is a Heaven. This is a unusual belief, I understand...but the guy that explained it to me answered every question I had, and moreover they were good answers! I'll try to find the thread (I saved it on my hard disk...) and post it here; I'm sure a lot of you would enjoy the read. 

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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Hillbillie]
    #1982251 - 10/05/03 08:10 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

It is good to ask questions, and listen to many answers. If you have any questions, I would be delighted to answer them to the best of my ability. I myself do not have all the answers, but I pray that God gives me the knowledge to answer them. God bless.


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OTD UNDERDOGS

Is attention your retarded heroin?

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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1982299 - 10/05/03 08:29 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Backwards:
-There is quite obviously a need for salvation, second birth has been practiced in some form since paleolithic times. I've already given a terse description of the necessity.

-Literal belief in non-literal midrash (you need to understand this word if you're going to understand anything of Biblical writing) is NOT what results in salvation.

-The Resurrection is NOT necessarily a resusitation. The earliest writer in the NT - Paul - NEVER spoke about a tomb narrative. These were later writings and were also midrashic illustrations of a Mystery. They were used in the Church as liturgical pieces to bring this Mystery to even the most concrete minds, not just philosophers and educated.

-The Jewish ideal of Meshiach was one of a Heavenly King - a ruler, who would reinstate the specific tribal peoples of the Israelites to their former greatness (as if...any people holds world power indefinately). The Messiah Himself said that His Kingdom was not of this world. He came into this world to teach humans how to reach His world - not to establish peace-on-Earth in any historical sense.

-To Gentile readers of the NT who are not the least bit conversant with OT terms or concepts, son of God is NOT the unique title given to Jesus but to any Divinely appointed ruler. Kingship was attributed to the Will of God. Without citing references, son of God is found in the OT in several places. With regard to later theology, the "Only Begotten Son" is a metaphysical assertion that the Godhead projected a 'prolation' of It's Nature (not the Essence, which is called 'the Father') into history (space-time) where is co-existed with human nature ('fully God, fully man' says the Creed). The Only Begotten (not made, extended from Eternity) Son is the Logos, through which creation came about and from which the Spirit proceeds (Orthodoxy) to interface with the human 'Nous' (the higher part of our spirit).

-Virgin, in Hebrew in 'almah.' Young woman is 'bertollah.' TWO different words. Matthew hadn't read the Hebrew prophesy of Isaiah where he prophesied this - Matthew read the Septuigint - the OT in Greek, which had been used for about 200 years. In Greek, there was ONE word for virgin and young woman - 'Parthenos.' The entire non-Hebrew idea of the 'virgin birth' and all the value upon Catholic nuns etc. through history was based upon the mistranslation of the FALLIBLE words of Matthew.

-Noah is another mythological story of a deluge found in many old civilizations. Despite The Search for Noah's Ark and remains on Mt. Ararat, there are symbolic lessons to be learned on the 'conjuntio' of opposites, the rainbow sign, and the first covenant between man and God. There may be a historical grain, but not the midrashic illustration as it's read - not literally.

-Adam (adama means clay in Hebrew) was metaphorically described as arising as if from a potter's hand. In other words, inorganic matter is breathed into (spirit=ruach=breath) and a living soul results. There is nothing whatever about the 'how' of this process, scientifically speaking. It is not a scientific document and wasn't intended to describe actual, literal events. It was midrash! It is a mythological rendering of creation, not a Big Bang-evolutionary model that we now know much about. Nevertheless 10 to the minus 43rd second amounts to "Let There Be Light!" - the Divine Fiat Lux. And organic life DID evolve from inorganic matter - against the ever-present 'background radiation' of God's Immanent Presence.

-Infalliblity - I believe I touched on that

Sleep well tonight.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Zahid]
    #1982332 - 10/05/03 08:39 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I agree with almost everything you said, and I have read that thing about the stars dimming as the sun brightens. The Person of Christ as the Word is somehow equivalent to the Words of the Qu'ran as the Way to God (Allah, Abba, Abwoon). Like the Word in Spirit and in letter, the Qu'ran takes the form of printed words aswell as being a spiritual Presence. On these exoteric baseline differences, Islam and Christianity will always be separate and dual. Only in the "Transcendent Unity of Religions" (Frithjof Schuon) can Truth be ONE. Salaam Aleichem. Shalom.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1982395 - 10/05/03 09:01 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

-There is quite obviously a need for salvation, second birth has been practiced in some form since paleolithic times. I've already given a terse description of the necessity.



This was the only part of your post I had a problem with. I guess we need to clarify what is meant by "salvation." I always figured that in traditional Christianity, this meant salvation from Hell, which is a concept I don't believe in. If God is infinite and eternal, then that means that there is God is everywhere, which contradicts the notion of Hell as the absence of God.

I do believe that mankind needs salvation from its own evils, such as hate, vengeance, greed, ignorance, and apathy, but not because of what awaits them in the afterlife, but rather because these things are destructive to humankind. If this is the salvation of which you speak, then I agree wholeheartedly. If it isn't, then please explain what you mean.


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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1982569 - 10/05/03 10:13 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

There are Hells in Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism as well. In Judaism the conditions of post mortem existence are not articulated in the exoteric religious forms, but they are in the Kabbala - the Qlippoth or mirror image of the Tree of Life. Whatever Hell might be, it may be considered as the Wrath of God. In Kabbalism, the Tree of Life has two sides: Justice and Mercy. Justice is wrathful, Divine Fire as opposed to Divine Light. Those who are identified with this natural corrupt existence, as opposed to the spiritual pure existence, will experience the Unmitigated Light of Radiant Eternity as a consuming fire. Not to be imagined as 'flames' mind you. The ancients knew only fire and lightening besides the heat of the sun. We know Laser light, fission light, fusion light. The point is that we are like 3 stage rockets, with materialists falling back to Earth like the 1st stage to be consumed in the atmosphere, as with the psychic people in stage two who identify themselves with thought. It is only the 3rd stage that leaves the downward, fiery end for the panorama of space and the nebulosities of the heavens.

Analogies only go so far. Salvation is a psychospiritual process in which one comes to acknowledge a new psychospiritual Center to one's psychospiritual existence. It is not the ego which is the center of one's psychophysical life (mind-body or soul). It is a higher Center. It now Governs one's life. One 'bows' to the Guidance of Divine Compassion and one surrenders one's ego to it. When selfish desires arise, they are sacrificed to the Higher law of Love and Compassion. This is mortification of the flesh, crucifixion of one's ego, and a yielding to the Living Presence of God Who now is the Pilot of one's inner life, and the ego the co-pilot, instead of the other way around. You cannot understand this until you have lived it for a while. Living it, is The Way.


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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1982826 - 10/05/03 11:49 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

There are Hells in Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism as well. In Judaism the conditions of post mortem existence are not articulated in the exoteric religious forms, but they are in the Kabbala - the Qlippoth or mirror image of the Tree of Life. Whatever Hell might be, it may be considered as the Wrath of God. In Kabbalism, the Tree of Life has two sides: Justice and Mercy. Justice is wrathful, Divine Fire as opposed to Divine Light. Those who are identified with this natural corrupt existence, as opposed to the spiritual pure existence, will experience the Unmitigated Light of Radiant Eternity as a consuming fire. Not to be imagined as 'flames' mind you. The ancients knew only fire and lightening besides the heat of the sun. We know Laser light, fission light, fusion light. The point is that we are like 3 stage rockets, with materialists falling back to Earth like the 1st stage to be consumed in the atmosphere, as with the psychic people in stage two who identify themselves with thought. It is only the 3rd stage that leaves the downward, fiery end for the panorama of space and the nebulosities of the heavens.



I am well aware that Hell exists in many religions. That does not make it any more real.

Quote:

Analogies only go so far. Salvation is a psychospiritual process in which one comes to acknowledge a new psychospiritual Center to one's psychospiritual existence. It is not the ego which is the center of one's psychophysical life (mind-body or soul). It is a higher Center. It now Governs one's life. One 'bows' to the Guidance of Divine Compassion and one surrenders one's ego to it. When selfish desires arise, they are sacrificed to the Higher law of Love and Compassion. This is mortification of the flesh, crucifixion of one's ego, and a yielding to the Living Presence of God Who now is the Pilot of one's inner life, and the ego the co-pilot, instead of the other way around. You cannot understand this until you have lived it for a while. Living it, is The Way.



So...to find this "Higher Center," must I accept Jesus Christ as my savior?


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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Hillbillie]
    #1983199 - 10/06/03 04:35 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Hillbillie said:
That's a pretty shitty thing to say, I think. You probably mean no offense, but still are you that arrogant to assume your beliefs somehow fall under a better reasoning system than his?




I honestly don't believe that my beliefs are more reasonable than other beliefs. However, if someone believes that the Sun is purple, they are entitled to that belief, but that does not mean that I can't shake my head at that in dismay, right?

There is only One Truth, by the way. One Truth, and different interpretations of it. No one actually knows that their interpretation is the correct one. And everyone has a different interpretation. My interpretation sort of shows me how everyone comes about their beliefs and so forth, and when people hold onto certain beliefs that are not their own, rather, they were forced into believing them by forms of mind control, it really sticks out.

So, we are entitled to believe whatever we want. This is true. Myself, I tend to transcend a lot of unnecessary beliefs and structures, including organized religion... I can find it all out on my own, as I am continously doing. No one else has to make me believe in some idea that is not my own and that has no true merit except for the fufillment of ego..
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1983299 - 10/06/03 07:25 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

You do not want Hell to become Real for you. Perhaps you need a taste. It isn't something I want. This may be why people go to horror films - to be horrified and contemplate Hell at a safe distance like Dante in 'The Inferno.'

I came to Realize why martyred Christian theologian Dietrich Bonhoeffer titled his book 'Christ the Center.' I cannot make that decision for you. The 'Son' is at the Center of my psychospiritual 'Solar System.' The chakra centers of motivation are created, sustained and guided by this Center which is infinitely more Aware than I am. The Center is more than an 'It,' and more than a '[S]He.' Christ is Transpersonal and Transcendental. My life has been enriched on ALL levels since making the decision 'Yea.'


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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