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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1966862 - 09/30/03 07:14 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Christ didn't die for our sins.... He died because people got too scared of his gaining influence.. Kinda like Ghandi


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
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OfflineFunguy
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1966933 - 09/30/03 07:36 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Apples and oranges, my friend. No atheists are claiming to preach the one true word of God(by definition, they can't). They only preach skepticism. I defy you to find one evil deed that was done in the name of atheism. I rest my case.




Racism. Racism was coined only in the last couple of centuries. Because of evolution, white men though black people were inferior.

Galatians 5:22-23, "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfullness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law."
This is how you can tell a true Christian from a person who claims to be a Christian. I am not one to judge who is truly Christian or not, God is. However, many Christians are struggling in their walk, and you should not judge a religion just by the people who pratice it. People have murdered in the name of Islam, Buddhism, Hidduism, Shintoism, etc.
I am just doing what I am called to do, spread the word of God. I am bringing a message of hope, peace, and salvation. Listen with your heart.
Do any of you believe in absolutes?


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OTD UNDERDOGS

Is attention your retarded heroin?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
    #1966963 - 09/30/03 07:49 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Racism. Racism was coined only in the last couple of centuries. Because of evolution, white men though black people were inferior.



First of all, racism has been around a lot longer than that. Second, I asked for an atrocity committed in the name of atheism. Evolution is not atheism. In fact, there are many Christians who believe in evolution, my grandfather being one of them.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1967020 - 09/30/03 08:03 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Atheists don't really believe in anything so they can't justify the atrocities they carry out with anything. It doesn't mean atheists don't do bad things though. Humans do bad things.


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Edited by Zahid (09/30/03 08:05 PM)


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
    #1967072 - 09/30/03 08:19 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Funguy said:
Quote:

Racism. Racism was coined only in the last couple of centuries. Because of evolution, white men though black people were inferior.




The brand of Social Darwinism you mention isn't so easy to detach from the Christian culture it was born in. In fact, to some it explains of the "mark of Cain" of Genesis. Christian slave-holders were more than happy to buy into it.

But anyway, I'm going to jump back out of all of that. You say you've been called to bring a message of "hope, peace, and salvation." In an earlier post you mentioned the ABCs of the Gospel, and then you said, "Find a church you like." Is that also part of the ABCs then? Is it the ABCDs of the Gospel? How do you feel about people joining the Mormon Church?

(I really didn't post all of that about Mormonism just to be a jokester, I honestly don't see a difference between the claims of Mormonism to exclusivity and the claims of Christianity to exclusivity (exclusive keys to salvation), except for a difference of degrees. And I have never heard an explanation of the difference that wasn't begging some question or other)

hongomon


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Anonymous

Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Zahid]
    #1967137 - 09/30/03 08:42 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Atheists don't really believe in anything so they can't justify the atrocities they carry out with anything. It doesn't mean atheists don't do bad things though. Humans do bad things.

what atrocities have we carried out in the NAME of atheism? None. That being said, many atrocities have been carried out in the name of a religion.


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1967259 - 09/30/03 09:16 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

My point was about how you were saying something to the effect that Christianity has survived for 2000 years because it is the one true word of God. I was pointing out that those 2000 years are marked by horrible acts of persecution being carried out in the name of the so-called true word of God.

No, I said the word of God had lasted and existed for 2000 years. I was pointing out that nowhere in that word does it say to persecute or kill in God's name. You should stop branding all into some. You are doing the same closed minded thinking that you are accusing us Christians of.

Because your religion is based on writings that didn't exist in the early Christian church, written by men who had never met Jesus, which didn't become an official part of Christianity until the Nicene Council, which was, I believe, AT LEAST 200 years after Christ had died.

Just because some organized religion didnt recognize them as fact sure doesnt mean they didnt exist from the moment they were spoken by Jesus. A good portion of the books, again, where not written 200 years after Jesus's death. Jesus didnt die until sometime between 30-35 AD (depending upon who you listen to) ..alot of the books: 1Thessalonias, Hebrews, Phillipans, Galatians, Corinthians 1and 2, Philemon, Colossians, Ephesians, Peter, Luke, the johns.. etc.. are widely accepted to have been written between 40 and 100 AD-- some were written more quickly by Paul, some came a little bit later That dates them 5-75(max) years after Jesus ascended.

Who exactly hadnt met Jesus? James the Just, his brother? Jude? His other brother? John? His disciple? Paul? Surely you know the story of Paul's Salvation.. So, these guys all made up stories? The same stories in alot of cases?

You keep coming back to this "official part of christianity" speil... My friend, I dont argue with you that alot of the Christian church is evil. I dont argue with you that someone should have been leading you correctly when you went to catholic school.. They should have been teaching you about the word, not their opinions. That's why Im not a preacher or deacon, I am still struggling with my opinions. Im still fighting against the word in small ways, trying to remove my preconditioning. I've said this before, but unfortunately, it is my beliefs that we currently live in the Laocidean incarnation of the church.. that what is put to the masses as "Christianity" is in a large part false and the motives behind it fall very far from what they are supposed to be. Christians are followers of Christ. If you want to argue about the Church, then that's cool. Ill agree with what you say whole heartedly. But if you want to talk about what Christianity is, you must stop clutching this dead nonliving building and these pharisee preachers.


Have you read the Gospel of Thomas, or Mary Magdelene, or any other of the apocryphal writings? You assume that early Christianity went by the same four Gospels which you've read, when in reality it was FAR more diverse than that.

Yes, I have read those Gospels. Mary much earlier and more recently, due to the urging of Markos, Thomas. The same four gospels which I read? Hun, you need to ask for your tuition money back from that Christian school if they taught you there were only four gospels. They must have removed huge chunks of your bible.

As for the diversity and applicability of the apocrypha.. I think that yes, if you want to come to have a clearer picture of the writings in the bible, you can look at the apocrypha with a very cynical eye.. you will see much of the bible in it.. and yes, there are some interesting theories. But see, I believe that my Lord is just and that he has given us everything we need to know him and that it is contained within the Bible. I dont believe in some crazy idea of God that man is able to put asunder his teachings. What kind of God would that be? Not too powerful, not to mighty.. actually, it's reducing him to our limited capabilities. I'm sure that early Christians had a struggle to filter and fiber all of the portions and make sure they equated to the whole.. but the truth was still there and obviously, at some point there was a call to figure out just what it was. I do grapple with the concept of the church canonizing the Bible.. but again, I have faith that God has the power to make sure that the true word was revealed.

I have no doubt that there are some things of validity in those books, but as fallible humans, there are also some that are not valid.. hence why they are not part of the Bible

On a side note.. Gospel of Thomas:
114 Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life." Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."

Only in this Gospel does it say anything remotely like that. In this one place.. it says the opposite in countless other scriptures... While much of Thomas is good and supported, this is not, hence one questions if this is truly the word of Jesus or the error of man.



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InvisiblePsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess

Registered: 02/13/99
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Zahid]
    #1967282 - 09/30/03 09:21 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Zahid said: "Humans do bad things."

That pretty much sums that whole arguement up. Wether they do it in the name of God, Mc Donalds, a dog named Sam.. HUMANS do bad things. That is a choice we can make. We can choose to do good with our knowledge or evil.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: ]
    #1967306 - 09/30/03 09:27 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

You can't manipulate atheism.


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Anonymous

Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Zahid]
    #1967321 - 09/30/03 09:30 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

thats the beauty of it :smile:


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: ]
    #1967332 - 09/30/03 09:33 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Looner, what country do you live in? Cause Im sure I can give you a huge list of atrocities carried out in the name of your country and it's people.. death, destruction.. all of it. So, by that token, that makes you as a part of that society.. as a "whatever"ican or -ean akin to your theory on Christianity, your people have done horrible things in the name of your country. So therefore, every law that your country was founded upon and every reason for its creation must be a lie. It must be wrong..

Im sure you see where Im going with this...

Also,

I wish that all of you who claimed such open mindedness could really stop sterotyping. I mean, fuck, Ive never seen a christian on these boards Judge you. They may state their opinion. But person after person.. you have no respect and yet you gripe about christians.. I mean, come on people.. can nobody see the humor in that? I see the crap in christians in glass houses throwing stones. But look at the constant nonrespect of a person's beliefs if they are Christian. People will specifically start threads, ask questions.. instigate.. when they have no desire to know anything.. when they have no desire to UNDERSTAND Christianity.. but just to tell Christians how wrong they are and what sheep they are. Well, he is my shepard and I'm very thankful to be a sheep in his flock. How can you not see that you are just preaching and creating the same intolerance that you claim exists in Christianity. I just dont understand how you cannot see that.

It's truly maddening. How can your eyes be open when you have no respect for opinions other then yours?

I mean, that's cool and all.. if that's how you want to be.. but look at the hypocrisy in it.

I'd love to start a thread where you guys honestly answered a question:

What is it in you that created to such hatred and dislike for Christianity? What happened in your life? Did some preacher tell you that you were damned? Did some TV evangelist rub you the wrong way? Did you have issues with ultra conservative parents?... But those honest answers would never come out. It would degrade into some constant bashing. I hope that some day a true Christian asks all of you that question in person, where you cant hide behind screens and misconceptions.. and I hope that they can help you to honestly see what it is exactly that you are really denying.. God, Guilt or misconception.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: ]
    #1967360 - 09/30/03 09:42 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

LoOnEr said:
thats the beauty of it :smile:




Beauty? Ok.

ma?nip?u?late  Audio pronunciation of manipulate ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (m-npy-lt)
tr.v. ma?nip?u?lat?ed, ma?nip?u?lat?ing, ma?nip?u?lates

  1. To move, arrange, operate, or control by the hands or by mechanical means, especially in a skillful manner: She manipulated the lights to get just the effect she wanted.
  2. To influence or manage shrewdly or deviously: He manipulated public opinion in his favor.
  3. To tamper with or falsify for personal gain: tried to manipulate stock prices.
  4. Medicine. To handle and move in an examination or for therapeutic purposes: manipulate a joint; manipulate the position of a fetus during delivery.

So, indeed manipulation is the key word; which goes to show the followers of any particular doctrine do not represent the tenets of that doctrine/religion. Agree? 


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Anonymous

Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1967397 - 09/30/03 09:53 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

he's got a point. i don't think there's been many atrocities commited in the name of atheism.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1967399 - 09/30/03 09:53 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

PsiloKitten said:
My point was about how you were saying something to the effect that Christianity has survived for 2000 years because it is the one true word of God. I was pointing out that those 2000 years are marked by horrible acts of persecution being carried out in the name of the so-called true word of God.

No, I said the word of God had lasted and existed for 2000 years. I was pointing out that nowhere in that word does it say to persecute or kill in God's name. You should stop branding all into some. You are doing the same closed minded thinking that you are accusing us Christians of.



I am not branding all into some. Here was the quote I responded to: "Only the true word could last 2000 years." I was pointing out that much of those 2000 years consisted of atrocities being committed by people in the name of the so-called "true word." Christianity did not survive for 2000 years because it is the "true word." It survived for 2000 years because it could be manipulated by people to serve their own selfish ends.

Quote:

Because your religion is based on writings that didn't exist in the early Christian church, written by men who had never met Jesus, which didn't become an official part of Christianity until the Nicene Council, which was, I believe, AT LEAST 200 years after Christ had died.

Just because some organized religion didnt recognize them as fact sure doesnt mean they didnt exist from the moment they were spoken by Jesus. A good portion of the books, again, where not written 200 years after Jesus's death. Jesus didnt die until sometime between 30-35 AD (depending upon who you listen to) ..alot of the books: 1Thessalonias, Hebrews, Phillipans, Galatians, Corinthians 1and 2, Philemon, Colossians, Ephesians, Peter, Luke, the johns.. etc.. are widely accepted to have been written between 40 and 100 AD-- some were written more quickly by Paul, some came a little bit later That dates them 5-75(max) years after Jesus ascended.

Who exactly hadnt met Jesus? James the Just, his brother? Jude? His other brother? John? His disciple? Paul? Surely you know the story of Paul's Salvation.. So, these guys all made up stories? The same stories in alot of cases?




Paul never met Jesus in the flesh. He supposedly had a "vision." Fine, accept that if you will, if you will accept the vision I had on a high dose of mushrooms where I realized we are all God and that all is one. As for John, if you are referring to the Gospel according to John, that the last Gospel to be written. John the apostle would not have lived long enough to have written that. As for the others, I'm not aware of their writings telling the story of Jesus's life(and therefore they are not Gospel writers).

Quote:

You keep coming back to this "official part of christianity" speil... My friend, I dont argue with you that alot of the Christian church is evil. I dont argue with you that someone should have been leading you correctly when you went to catholic school.. They should have been teaching you about the word, not their opinions. That's why Im not a preacher or deacon, I am still struggling with my opinions. Im still fighting against the word in small ways, trying to remove my preconditioning. I've said this before, but unfortunately, it is my beliefs that we currently live in the Laocidean incarnation of the church.. that what is put to the masses as "Christianity" is in a large part false and the motives behind it fall very far from what they are supposed to be. Christians are followers of Christ. If you want to argue about the Church, then that's cool. Ill agree with what you say whole heartedly. But if you want to talk about what Christianity is, you must stop clutching this dead nonliving building and these pharisee preachers.



I was only making the point that originally there was more to Christianity than what you read in the New Testament. That is all. You are not part of a religion that is 2000 years old. You are part of an adaptation of that religion.

Quote:

Have you read the Gospel of Thomas, or Mary Magdelene, or any other of the apocryphal writings? You assume that early Christianity went by the same four Gospels which you've read, when in reality it was FAR more diverse than that.

Yes, I have read those Gospels. Mary much earlier and more recently, due to the urging of Markos, Thomas. The same four gospels which I read? Hun, you need to ask for your tuition money back from that Christian school if they taught you there were only four gospels. They must have removed huge chunks of your bible.



No, they didn't teach me that there were only four gospels. They taught me that there are four officially recognized gospels in the New Testament, as well as the Pauline letters and other letters, plus the Book of Revelation. They also taught me about the apocryphal writings, which I'm glad you've read. Now let me ask you this: Do you accept the apocryphal writings as the infallible word of God, as you do with the other 4 gospels?

Quote:

As for the diversity and applicability of the apocrypha.. I think that yes, if you want to come to have a clearer picture of the writings in the bible, you can look at the apocrypha with a very cynical eye.. you will see much of the bible in it.. and yes, there are some interesting theories. But see, I believe that my Lord is just and that he has given us everything we need to know him and that it is contained within the Bible. I dont believe in some crazy idea of God that man is able to put asunder his teachings. What kind of God would that be? Not too powerful, not to mighty.. actually, it's reducing him to our limited capabilities. I'm sure that early Christians had a struggle to filter and fiber all of the portions and make sure they equated to the whole.. but the truth was still there and obviously, at some point there was a call to figure out just what it was. I do grapple with the concept of the church canonizing the Bible.. but again, I have faith that God has the power to make sure that the true word was revealed.



Ah, the whole "God wouldn't let us be decieved" theory. If God wouldn't let us be decieved, then how do you explain the fossil record, since you denounce evolution? How do you explain the way the Bible has been manipulated to justify things like slavery and the witch-hunts? Surely almighty God wouldn't allow such things to happen...

Quote:

I have no doubt that there are some things of validity in those books, but as fallible humans, there are also some that are not valid.. hence why they are not part of the Bible



Yet Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were infallible? Just because a group of powerful bishops decided they were the only acceptable Gospels? They chose them because they didn't undermine their authority.

Quote:

On a side note.. Gospel of Thomas:
114 Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life." Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."

Only in this Gospel does it say anything remotely like that. In this one place.. it says the opposite in countless other scriptures... While much of Thomas is good and supported, this is not, hence one questions if this is truly the word of Jesus or the error of man.





And how do you know Jesus didn't say that? Maybe he was a mysogynist. You don't know for a fact that he wasn't.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1967408 - 09/30/03 09:55 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

PsiloKitten said:
Looner, what country do you live in? Cause Im sure I can give you a huge list of atrocities carried out in the name of your country and it's people.. death, destruction.. all of it. So, by that token, that makes you as a part of that society.. as a "whatever"ican or -ean akin to your theory on Christianity, your people have done horrible things in the name of your country.



There's a difference. He never chose to be born in the country he's in. You, on the other hand, CHOSE to be Christian.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1967434 - 09/30/03 10:02 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

there were crimes commited in the name of christianity but they weren't commited by christians.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: ]
    #1967498 - 09/30/03 10:22 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

True.

"There was only one true Christian, and he died on the cross."--Nietzche


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1967534 - 09/30/03 10:32 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

what about markosthegnostic?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: ]
    #1967542 - 09/30/03 10:34 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

What about him? Do you think he's any more a true Christian than any other person claiming to be Christian? He has his own beliefs, which I respect, and if he wants to call himself a Christian, then fine. I still stand by that Nietzche quote.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1967561 - 09/30/03 10:39 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

PsiloKitten, your question isn't a fair question. Why is it that critics of Christianity necessarily hate Christianity? Is that how it is for anyone who is critical of anything? Be careful not to develop a persecution complex. Now you as a Christian may be pretty good at living and letting live, but as a doctrine Christianity isn't so good at that. It's the correct way to live, for everyone, and it weighs on the conscience of adherents to go out and "convert" others, "save souls". It naturally leads people to feel "called" to evangelize the "truth". here's one example.

(from the site: "Aim: To teach that the mission of the local church is to evangelize the world."

Which is all fine, let people go out and preach damnation and salvation. But don't throw a fit because others take issue with it and challenge those evangelists.

Besides, wouldn't it be a whole lot easier to emulate Christ without trying to figure out the scriptures? As you said, there are faults in the verses in which "one questions if this is truly the word of Jesus or the error of man"--if we accept that then a whole box is opened. And I do accept it--I have a feeling that there are all kinds of lines put in Jesus' mouth. Since it's pretty apparent no one can be sure which are his words and which aren't, I don't see the point in trying to rely on the Bible. Here's an idea: maybe to "Be like Christ" could mean to be as true to oneself as he was to himself.


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