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OfflinePhluck
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If Jesus suffered for our sins...
    #1089313 - 11/26/02 11:01 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

why does he get to go to heaven?


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Phluck]
    #1089393 - 11/26/02 11:50 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

More importantly than wiping out our sins is wiping out our credit card debt...


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The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Swami]
    #1089485 - 11/27/02 12:24 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

More importantly than wiping out our sins is wiping out our credit card debt...

I'd be willing to dub that a miracle.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Sclorch]
    #1089488 - 11/27/02 12:26 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

ahhhhh good old Fight Club inspiration :wink:


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What?

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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Phluck]
    #1089491 - 11/27/02 12:26 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

He didn't die for our sins.

He didn't go to heaven.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Zero7a1]
    #1089551 - 11/27/02 12:40 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

ahhhhh good old Fight Club inspiration

hehehe


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Offlineakyouser_oner
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Strumpling]
    #1090432 - 11/27/02 07:17 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

whether or not he went to heaven we could debate all day, but he DID die for our sins. he believed in his deepest self that he did, and that's all that matters...


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-akyouser.oner
<(((((((((((((((@~~~

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Offlineuser_exists
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: akyouser_oner]
    #1090475 - 11/27/02 08:16 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Jesus didn't die

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: user_exists]
    #1090581 - 11/27/02 09:09 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

...because fictional characters cannot.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Anonymous

Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Phluck]
    #1090874 - 11/27/02 11:29 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Supposedly Jesus' substitutionary death by crucifixion was enough to act as a propitiation for our 'missing the mark'. This is a doctrine in some sects of the Christian faith. Others think that He actually went to hell as well. That act, according to those that believe it, was not a punishment for Him but for us. Hence, he got to go to heaven after paying the price for our sin which was His death and/or experiencing Hell.

Point of fact, since none of us were there to witness it we have to either rely on some authority for verification (dangerous in my point of view) or find a rational way to think it might be possible ( perhaps the best rational course) or we can dismiss it as a fairy tale for grownups.

Each of us makes a choice at some point.

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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: ]
    #1090936 - 11/27/02 11:52 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

well even if we were there to witness his death, that still doesn't have much to do with whether or not he went to heaven or hell, and whether or not heaven and hell even exist.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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Anonymous

Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Strumpling]
    #1090945 - 11/27/02 11:58 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Yes, that is true.


However, if I were to have witnessed the scenes in the New Testament including the Ascension I would believe without a doubt.

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OfflineEarth_Droid
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Phluck]
    #1090949 - 11/27/02 12:00 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

I like to make stories out of the metaphors in the bible for my own enjoyment. Perhaps dying for our sins is symbolic for death and rebirth. Perhaps everyone dies for their own sins, and gets reborn. Thus death and rebirth until they have learn all of lifes lessons, and are ready to end their suffering.

A "sin" is something which is not necessary.
George Gurdjieff

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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: akyouser_oner]
    #1091000 - 11/27/02 12:20 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

"he DID die for our sins"

How do you come to that concusion??? Every piece of literature I read said that Jesus' death wasn't his own idea - he didn't say "hey guys, you're all sinners so I'm going to have myself nailed to a cross". Instead Jesus's death had more to do with the fact that he insisted that he was the "son of God" and that people should put him above their existing leadership. The leadership didn't really care too much for that kind of talk.


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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Offlineakyouser_oner
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1091033 - 11/27/02 12:37 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

well, it doesn't matter whose idea it was (i'm saying this for the benefit of those who don't believe in the god part of jesus' life). the point was that he willingly died for our sins (in his mind), and regardless of whether or not you believe that he has done that so we can live free from sin, the reason he allowed himself to live the lifestyle that he knew would eventually bring him ruin was to save us from it...


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-akyouser.oner
<(((((((((((((((@~~~

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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: akyouser_oner]
    #1091039 - 11/27/02 12:39 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Gotcha.  Fair enough!  :laugh: 


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1091078 - 11/27/02 12:57 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

As anguish is caused by attachment to wordly things then if was truly a Buddha, he didn't suffer.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: akyouser_oner]
    #1091251 - 11/27/02 02:11 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

You know all those suicide bombers?

They're dying for the good of muslims everywhere, and they aren't even being rounded up nailed to crosses, their doing it themselves. They get to go to heaven too.

I'd suffer a few days of horrible tormenting anguish in hell if it means that I get to spend eternity in peaceful harmonic pleasure.

The assholes on Survivor are doing it too.

"If I make it to the end of this shitty ordeal, I get to spend the rest of my years livin' large."


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Offlineakyouser_oner
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Phluck]
    #1091382 - 11/27/02 02:59 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

1) i made it a point not to bring god or heaven into my posts
2) i did not condone nor disapprove of jesus' actions. i was merely pointing out facts (under the assumption that jesus did actually exist)


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-akyouser.oner
<(((((((((((((((@~~~

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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: akyouser_oner]
    #1091387 - 11/27/02 03:01 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Unfortunately its not a fact that he died for our sins.

He died because he pissed off the government.


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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Offlineakyouser_oner
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Strumpling]
    #1091427 - 11/27/02 03:14 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

yes, the government killed him because he pissed them off. but jesus knew most of his life that this was to be the end result of his teaching, and that we would eventually be killed... he therefore chose to follow that path and chose to die for our sins


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-akyouser.oner
<(((((((((((((((@~~~

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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: akyouser_oner]
    #1091447 - 11/27/02 03:20 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

I'll die for my OWN sins, thank you very much. :smile:


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: akyouser_oner]
    #1091519 - 11/27/02 03:55 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Which of course, explains why he asked when dying, why God forsake him.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Strumpling]
    #1091716 - 11/27/02 05:36 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Do you also make up false direction for lost travellers when you don't know the answer to their questions?


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Strumpling]
    #1091736 - 11/27/02 05:46 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Spiritual understanding of Biblical narrative undergirds the surface features. If Jesus became the 'Lamb of God Who takes away the sins of the world,' according to Jewish midrash, then Jesus had to die in a sacrificial manner as the unblemished sacrificial victim. There is theological [theo - logical] meaning in every aspect of scriptural narrative, whether the narrative is historically accurate [unlikely] or not.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Swami]
    #1091764 - 11/27/02 05:53 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

"Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?..." This quotation attributed to Y'shua - "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken me?..." (KJV) is the first line of the 22nd Psalm. So, Y'shua was in prayer, and the expression of His experience of utter abandonment to His mortal nature was completely 'on the mark,' with this choice of words. Transcendental prayer in the midst of existential anguish.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1091786 - 11/27/02 06:04 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Why would I give travellers false directions? I tell them "hey sorry man I don't know"

Just because somebody thinks they're dying for everybody's sins, whatever that means, doesn't make it fact.

If i think your eyes are red, does that make your eyes actually red?


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Strumpling]
    #1092082 - 11/27/02 07:46 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

The point is: If you don't understand the question - don't give an answer. You gave an answer, but you clearly do not understand the question [re: the meaning of the death of Jesus according to the tenets of Christianity].


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1092101 - 11/27/02 07:53 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

"according to the tenets of Christianity"

I don't see that anywhere in the original post.


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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Invisiblemr crisper
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1092125 - 11/27/02 08:03 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

hi markos
could you tell me a little more about the deeper implications of this moment when christ's faith broke - 'my god, why hast thou forsaken me?'
are we all taken to such a point on a personal level, in a macro/microcosmic sense?
is this what is sometimes termed 'the long, dark night of the soul'?
thanks

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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: mr crisper]
    #1092131 - 11/27/02 08:05 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Maybe the moral of the story is don't fall for God or you will die a horrible death and wonder why God didn't save you, then when it really counts god will say "hehe dude you brought this on yourself"


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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InvisibleBuddha5254
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Strumpling]
    #1092216 - 11/27/02 08:31 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

I always wondered, if he was the son of god and he knew he was going to heaven, tehn suffereing and dying for us isnt really that big a deal.

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1092552 - 11/27/02 10:31 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Put whatever spin you want on the quote. It sounds NO DIFFERENT than what any of us in terror for his mortal life might utter.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Swami]
    #1095340 - 11/29/02 01:15 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

"Which of course, explains why he asked when dying, why God forsake him."

Wow, great point. Sounds like he WASN'T expecting to die.


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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Offlinerommstein2001
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Strumpling]
    #1097433 - 11/29/02 11:37 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

but it is a fact that he existed... any historian will tell you... just the debate is is he a nut or a messiah?


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Offline3eyedgod
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: rommstein2001]
    #1097466 - 11/29/02 11:52 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

I do not beleive in Christianity but the bible makes for interesting reading. The only difference between Jesus and your modern day cult leader that i can see is that Jesus created a cult/religion that eventually came to dominate the globe. Also I remember some verse or another from Matthew in the new testament you might find interesting. The story(a parable told by Jesus) goes like this a farmer(god) plants his crops(good people) one day and at night an enemy(devil) plants weeds(bad people) in the field. When the crops and weeds sprout the farmer is going to pick them out but god tells him to leave them because it would be too hard to seperate the weeds from the crops and some crops may be harmed. He said when the time for the harvest comes the crops will be picked(by the angels) and put in the barn(heaven) and the weeds shall be picked and thrown in the fire(hell). **everything in parenthesis is an explanation of the parable as offered by a book i read on the new testament** According to that verse you really have no choice of wether your good or bad. No choice in wether or not your going to heaven or hell.


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Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: rommstein2001]
    #1097738 - 11/30/02 02:14 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

but it is a fact that he existed...

Not necessarily. Some believe him to be a conglomerate figure composed of bit and pieces of real men and myth. A recent tome of some 500 or 600 pages makes a very strong case against his existence. Wish I had the title handy... (check Amazon.com - was written by a female author with strong academic credentials)


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Swami]
    #1097786 - 11/30/02 02:35 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

The coolest idea I heard was that the entire bible was composed as a story or a play :smile:


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Swami]
    #1098367 - 11/30/02 12:19 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Of course it sounds no different. That's the point. Jesus had to die, as prophesied. The Qu'ran contradicted this account, insisting that a prophet of God could not die a shameful death, so He either A) didn't have a physical body (which is the heresy of docetism), or B) someone was substituted for Jesus. Jesus was "fully human," and, as Christian theology made othodox doctrine, "fully Divine," which is the portion of the formula which is known by faith. Assuming the man existed, the first portion is not debatable, except by certain Gnostics and other Docetists.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Swami]
    #1098456 - 11/30/02 01:24 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Wish I had the title handy... (check Amazon.com - was written by a female author with strong academic credentials)
Not trying to put words in your mouth here Swami, but i "think" this might be the book to which you are referring:

http://www.truthbeknown.com/christ.htm


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"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"


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Anonymous

Post deleted by Moe Howard [Re: Swami]
    #1099141 - 11/30/02 07:07 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: ]
    #1099219 - 11/30/02 07:28 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Strong academic credentials mean nothing.

They don't mean everything, but likewise certainly aren't meaningless when it comes to knowledge of ancient languages, history and archaeology. The book should stand or fall on it's own merits however and appears to be carefully annotated as to sources, not mere opinion.

I reserve judgement until I read it in full.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #1099241 - 11/30/02 07:33 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Yes, I believe that is it: "The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold".

Thanks for looking that up.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Anonymous

Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Swami]
    #1099488 - 11/30/02 09:32 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Me?

I'm waiting for the movie. :wink:

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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Swami]
    #1099637 - 11/30/02 10:40 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Acharya also wrote (imo) an excellent critique of the writings/musings of Zachariah Sitchen, Swami. Being fluent in ancient Sanskrit herselt she was able to point out SERIOUS flaws in his "interpretations". She's a very good thinker(as well as being what you would call "a hottie" lol), The bottom line is/was that she is able to give a clear and demonstative argument as to how people will fabricate, distort, twist around or even conjur up the requisite "facts" to substantiate whatever world view or belief system they WISH to be true


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"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"


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Offlinejohnnyfive
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #1099895 - 12/01/02 12:18 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

yes i just ordered the book the chirst conspiracy: the greatest story ever sold. Though it hasn't come in the mail yet. Is it a good book?

So what was the part in the book that talked about modern day worship is the worship of horus: the egyptian god of the sky; am i correct?


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And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!

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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: johnnyfive]
    #1099933 - 12/01/02 12:40 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

yes i just ordered the book the chirst conspiracy: the greatest story ever sold. Though it hasn't come in the mail yet. Is it a good book?

i haven't actually tread the book in it's entirity Johnny.......just the excerpts from the link i provided....

So what was the part in the book that talked about modern day worship is the worship of horus: the egyptian god of the sky; am i correct?

i think if you click on the aforementioned link that one of the pages/excerpts deals with the mythology of Horus(perhaps even tying it in to "the illuminati".....annunaki and whatever else) :grin: 

http://www.truthbeknown.com/christ3.htm that "should" be the info you're seeking re Horus :wink:


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"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"


Edited by FreakQlibrium (12/01/02 01:02 AM)

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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Swami]
    #1099954 - 12/01/02 12:49 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

As anguish is caused by attachment to wordly things then if was truly a Buddha, he didn't suffer.

THat's an excellent point Swami, and one that i myself have made B4.....(not on this board though) :smile: 


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"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1100608 - 12/01/02 10:15 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

(Referring to Jesus' death cry) Of course it sounds no different. That's the point. Jesus had to die, as prophesied.

Too rich! So let me get this straight: the fact that Jesus final utterance was NO DIFFERENT than any other mortal was indicative that he was indeed the prophet?

And if he was a false prophet the words would have also been similar? Am I the only one that finds this apologetic doublespeak ironic?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Anonymous

Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Swami]
    #1100961 - 12/01/02 12:35 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Apology?

I didn't see no apology. :wink:

You do realize that Jesus was quoting Scripture, don't you? :wink:

:grin:

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Offlineribbit
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: ]
    #1101521 - 12/01/02 05:45 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

'my god, why hast thou forsaken me?'

according to the christian belief, these words were said because jesus felt god leave his presence.

basically jesus did not know perhaps that god wasn't going to hold his hand through the death, would have made dying a bit to easy having true peace within dying.

also, that god was unable to accompany him because god cannot take part in death, so when jesus died, he had to die without god.

tho, this is the belief umong christians...

it could have signified that at the last moments, believing he was the son of man, that he should have been pampered and was not, or perhaps learned ultimately that it was never as he thought.... or because of the excruciating pain, people have a tendency to hallucinate.

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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: ribbit]
    #1101581 - 12/01/02 06:27 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

"or perhaps learned ultimately that it was never as he thought"

there ya go :smile:


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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OfflineMurex
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Buddha5254]
    #1101827 - 12/01/02 07:59 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

I am the son of God as well.  :wink:


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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OfflineGrowingVines
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Murex]
    #1101954 - 12/01/02 09:00 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Shall we really ever know the trueth about this man? recently in TIme magazine,there was an article about proof that jesus had a brother. Does that mean anything? who knows, We will not find these answers probibly until we are on our death bed. Then we will relize that maybe there really is a god or not.


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Peace out my brothers, for everyone has a bit of insanity in them

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: ribbit]
    #1101966 - 12/01/02 09:03 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

It is true that God does not die, as in 'God, the Father,' which is called 'Patripassionism' in theology, but the 'impassible God' Who is eternally the same, entered into the human realm in order to experience the suffering and death of His human creation through the agency of Jesus of Nazareth.

More important than speculating about the mortal thoughts of a tortured man dying from asphixiation is the metaphysical, mystical and mythological Truths being imparted by the entire drama - including the Resurrection, which is far more important than the death of Jesus. Whether the Resurrection was ever intended to be interpreted as a 'resusitation,' as portrayed by the selected writers of the Gospels, or as a Transcendental Experience as recorded by Paul's writings, is another question. Resurrection is the 'crux' of Christianity.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflineMurex
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: GrowingVines]
    #1102095 - 12/01/02 09:39 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

I am God. You are God as well.

We are all pieces of God. I realized this when tripping shrooms- I saw a giant ball of white energy (like a star only 100 times bigger) where I was being pulled in while other 'souls' were coming out. I entered it and I felt Love, and lots of it. It was the highest form of euphoria one can have.

Eat 5 grams alone and become one with god.
Eat 5 grams at Astro World and puke your guts out.

It's all up to you.

As for Jesus- I don't think he really matters as much as most people think. You probably can never know for sure about that guy.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


Edited by Murex (12/01/02 09:41 PM)

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Murex]
    #1103245 - 12/02/02 05:27 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Sure, of course...I'll believe in you from now on. What have I been thinking for the past 3 decades? Let me pray to your big white ball. What's his/her name?

You are not "THE Son of God," and with your attitude about Jesus, you do not even rank as 'a child of God,' from a Christian perspective. Lose your inflated ego and you might begin to learn what this means.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

Edited by MarkostheGnostic (12/02/02 05:41 AM)

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: GrowingVines]
    #1103254 - 12/02/02 05:36 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

The Bible cites James as the brother of Jesus (I don't have chapters and verses available). James is not known to have carried Christianity as far as Peter and Paul are said to have.

If James was to assume the role that Peter took, the saying where Jesus tells Peter that he has 'the keys to the Kingdom' complicates the issue. There were errors in the minds of the apostles. Paul believed that the return of Jesus to Earth, in glory was about to happen shortly after His Resurrection and Ascension (theologically and mythologically speaking). That is why he taught others not to marry, or be concerned about Earthly things. He was partly correct though. The Spirit of God is available in this very moment.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflineNomad
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Swami]
    #1103330 - 12/02/02 07:39 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

As anguish is caused by attachment to wordly things then if was truly a Buddha, he didn't suffer.

I don't remember where I've read that, but there was a zen master who studied the bible and came to the part of the gospel where Jesus was dying at the cross, and one of the two criminals who were crucified with him confessed his sins, and Jesus said: "You will be in paradise with me tonight."

That passage somehow didn't sound right, so he looked it up and discovered a wrong translation. What Jesus really said was: "You are in paradise with me right now, here, hanging from the cross." I don't know if that is a better translation, but it makes a lot more sense to me. Maybe Markos can help out.

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Nomad]
    #1103424 - 12/02/02 08:40 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

I like what the zen master said, too.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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OfflineViveka
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: ribbit]
    #1104028 - 12/02/02 01:15 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

"god was unable to accompany him because god cannot take part in death"

Give me a BREAK!

Now THAT'S rich!

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Nomad]
    #1104587 - 12/02/02 04:27 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Of course, no one knows exactly what Jesus said from the cross, if anything besides the sound of pain. Of all the gospels circulating around the ancient world, the Church Fathers selected Matthew, Mark (the oldest), Luke and John (which almost didn't make it 'cause it was too mystical and pseudo-gnostic). What we have in these canonical gospels is not all there is. Other gospels depicted the death differently. Thomas didn't speak of the cross at all, but spoke to a realized eschatology in his gospel.

The Zennist was attempting to reinterpret Christian doctrine by Buddhist doctrine. That is, Christianity is a 'partially realized eschatology,' which means that the ultimate state of reality is only partly here and now, while the fulfillment lies in a 'future' state. Buddhism doesn't call it this, but from a Christian definition, Buddhism is a 'fully realized eschatology' which means - yup, you got it - it's ALL right here and now, like the book BE HERE NOW says. Now, Christian mysticism agrees with the Buddhist point-of-view, but also admits that the 'fullness' (pleroma) will manifest historically at some undetermined time. Saint Paul thought that Jesus would return shortly after His Ascension, and that fullness would then begin to manifest, but Paul was in error...OR...all of mainstream Christianity that has looked to a fullfillment in historical time has been WRONG!

In her book 'The Gnostic Paul,' Elaine Pagels, the Princeton theologian, interprets the Pauline letters along Gnostic lines instead of the traditional Christian historical understanding. From a Gnostic Christian point-of-view, 'the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand, and men see it not.' "Verily I say unto you, today thou shalt be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43) does represent a metaphysical reality that exists between death and resurrection, in the historical scheme, but again, it is a level of present reality, here and now. The Zennist needs a compassionate slap upside his head to awaken to the simple realization that being nailed through wrists and feet to an upright timber, after receiving 40 lashes with lead-dumbell-tipped leather thongs (flagrum), is gonna set up such waves of agony, before the additional agony of diaphragmatic paralysis and asphixiation sets in, that NO ONE is gonna experience bliss until the "pain-body" (Eckhart Tolle) dies. One hopes, with the theological virtue of hope, that every martyr experienced infinitely increasing degrees of bliss as their tortured bodies died around their Essence [Spirit]. [Whew !]


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflineMurex
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1104775 - 12/02/02 05:44 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Saying that I am God doesn't boost my ego. Of course I also said that everyone was also God, so it would be pointless to think I was above everyone else.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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Offlinejohnnyfive
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Murex]
    #1104785 - 12/02/02 05:50 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Hey murex i hear ya bud, i believe were all gods too. Gods in ammenisa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We don't know where gods, but hell,... thats what hallucinagens do, they remind us who we are!!!!!

Although that realization didn't come from a shroom trip for me.

If you were the one that posted the trip report - God and Truth (or something like that). I loved it yo!


--------------------
And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!

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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: GrowingVines]
    #1104824 - 12/02/02 06:05 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

I'm convinced Mary wasn't a virgin..... she probably got all freaked out and didn't want to tell mom and dad that she fucked Joseph, so uhh some angels came to me I swear, it was amazing!!


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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OfflineGrowingVines
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Strumpling]
    #1104905 - 12/02/02 06:31 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Back in the day, they probibly would believe an angel came down and said, you've gotta have a baby. Now adays, parents would slap the chick upside the head if they told us that


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Peace out my brothers, for everyone has a bit of insanity in them

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Murex]
    #1104911 - 12/02/02 06:33 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

That's not what I said. An inflated ego proclaims itself to be God. Enlightened understanding of the origin of pure identity from its Source always manifests that truth through humility, not bravado. Including others in that definition is merely to project one's own inflated self-concept onto them. Think about it...who is making such a bold proclamation? It isn't coming from God, it is coming from you, who is assuming some kind of identification with God. That aspect of you which may be 'most like' the nature of God - your 'spirit,' as opposed to your 'ego,' is described by the Psalmist as the 'small, still voice within.' Look at the qualities of personality that flow from the highest state - love:

"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil, but rejoices in the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres." (I Corinthians 13:4-7, NIV)


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Anonymous

Post deleted by Moe Howard [Re: Murex]
    #1104945 - 12/02/02 06:40 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)


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Offline3eyedgod
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1105095 - 12/02/02 07:28 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Look at the qualities of personality that flow from the highest state - love:

who said that in states of consciousness or of emotion one is higher than the other?

All things are equal. Hatred is as much a part of the source as love. They are merely different expressions of the Tao.

Enlightened understanding of the origin of pure identity from its Source always manifests that truth through humility, not bravado.

same as above. The source expresses itself in an infinite number of ways. You can find the message in any of them. It's just a matter of which expression you understand best.


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Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself

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Offline3eyedgod
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: ]
    #1105106 - 12/02/02 07:32 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Hallucinogens allow you to experience reality from a vast array of different perspectives. One can learn and benefit from a "bad trip". Neither be attracted or repelled by the images and feelings around you. Experience them and let them pass. There is no one fixed truth. Everything is in a state of constant flux. The good and the bad come and go in an endless circle. It should be our goal to learn from all of these experiences.


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Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: 3eyedgod]
    #1105438 - 12/02/02 09:12 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Where have YOU been? You teach me nothing about Dao - which means 'Way,' which is the Logos, which is Christ. Love is an emotion in common everyday English language, but Love - 'agape ' - is NOT an emotion in Christianity. Love is the metaphysics of God. "God is Love " (1 John 4:8) denotes Love as the humanly comprehensible aspect of Transcendental Being. Hatred is an emotion, and as such is not the diametrical opposite of Love in the Christian meaning. Your linguistic division of opposites into some Yin-Yang symbolism is crude, and defined by a rather shallow comparison of contemporary English words.

I am not a pantheist [pan-theist] as you seem to be, with 'pan,' in the Greek indicating 'all,' and 'theist' tacked on to mean that 'God is everything,' essentially. I might be 'panENtheist, wherein God is immanent in creation, but not identical to creation. All things are not equal - morality first and foremost. Any authentic Daoist would be as a genuine Christian, with the aforementioned qualities. Otherwise, it's not genuine, just an intellectual rationalisation for 'anything goes,' not Enlightenment.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: 3eyedgod]
    #1105501 - 12/02/02 09:31 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

3eyedgod,

I think you're right on the dot.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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OfflineNomad
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1106430 - 12/03/02 06:16 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks for the great reply :laugh:. Very interesting perspective. However...

The Zennist needs a compassionate slap upside his head to awaken to the simple realization that being nailed through wrists and feet to an upright timber, after receiving 40 lashes with lead-dumbell-tipped leather thongs (flagrum), is gonna set up such waves of agony, before the additional agony of diaphragmatic paralysis and asphixiation sets in, that NO ONE is gonna experience bliss until the "pain-body" (Eckhart Tolle) dies.

Well, I think that "paradise" would not refer to physical pleasure as opposed to physical pain. I agree that being crucified will not lead to a warm and fuzzy sensation in the body. But in an enlightened context, where is the difference between pleasure and pain?  Both are undefined occurrences - things which are neither this nor that - unless one judges pain as bad and pleasure as good, und thus creates a perceptual context. But beyond that, it seems to me, there would be an attitude which accepts both pleasure and pain as manifestations of the larger mystery which is around, namely existance itself. Feeling pain is a good hint that one is alive, and being alive is bliss. Even when you're nailed to a cross.

Looked it up, by the way.  The zen master was Soen Nakagawa Roshi, and the alternate translation was given to him by an "orthodox christian". 

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Anonymous

Post deleted by Moe Howard [Re: 3eyedgod]
    #1108155 - 12/03/02 08:19 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)


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OfflineMurex
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: ]
    #1108242 - 12/03/02 09:01 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

I found it to make perfect sense. I used to be a christian and very ardent in my beliefs until one trip, 2 years ago. About every 30 days since I find someone else who believes this too. It seems there is some sort of proof in this because of these people. This backs up my beliefs when I thought I was alone.

It's still my opinion......just like everything I say.  :wink:


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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Offline3eyedgod
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1108255 - 12/03/02 09:06 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

I am entitled to my opinion just as you are entitled to yours. The bible does present some lessons from it's parables and offers an interesting perspective on existance. Quoting verses from it will not get you far with me. As i do not accept that text as the ultimate truth.

I apologize for my "crude" comparison of yin-yang (forcefulness-receptiveness). However i do feel justified in the comparison in that love and hate are qualitative opposites just as yin and yang. Differences between eastern and western language not withstanding.

If hate is not the opposite of love what is (in the christian meaning)?


--------------------
Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Nomad]
    #1108321 - 12/03/02 09:23 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Perhaps you could locate one of the freaks around the planet who has himself nailed to a cross on Good Friday, and ask him if life is blissful. There is a chance you would receive an affirmative answer, because he would be a masochist in the extremely pathological part of the masochistic spectrum, and would undoubtedly be in some kind of sensual bliss.

The fatal crucifixion of Jesus would have been more overwhelmingly painful than you obviously can imagine. This did not preclude His choice to do 'His Father's Will,' which included taking on the karma of humankind as the 'Lamb of God.' Paradise in the NT was different from OT paradise, which was described in the terms of a 'garden,' like Eden. NT Paradise was a Transcendental Realm - Heaven - and therefore beyond the opposites of pleasure and pain. Nevertheless, Jesus the man had to experience death in its most terrible reality, which included the experience of abandonment to the powers of evil, and the 'kenosis,' or self-emptying of His Divine Nature. If Jesus had not experienced real death, then His Resurrection (whatever that actually was) would have little meaning for the rest of us humans who are destined to die. His would have been a special case.

Get out of the ivory tower thinking. It is unreal (even though I am a philosophical Idealist in many ways) and has zero practical value. You prefer a blow job from a gorgeous sexy woman (if you're straight, otherwise adjust accordingly :smile:  ), than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick. Tell me I'm wrong, I'll tell you you're a liar. Yes, the nervous system carries the signals impartially, but YOU, as sentient being, have real human preferences for those impulses.

The state of mind where 'it's all just happening,' CAN be a state of Enlightenment from a Buddhist position -  Ratnasambhava's Wisdom of Equality, or Askobhya's Wisdom of the Great Mirror, in Vajrayana Buddhism, OR it be flattened affect in the schizophrenic, which is not Enlightenment. But here's a newsflash: Buddha, and Nirvana IS NOT equivalent to Christ and the Kingdom of Heaven/God. One may postulate a "Transcendent Unity of Religions" like Frithjof Schuon, but there remains a pluralistic point of view as well which complicates things. There is no rational solution to certain logical inquiries. Jesus suffered on the cross. We would too. Gautama was another man, with another set of experiences, who withdrew from suffering, even the 'suffering' of having everything which he knew he would lose eventually. He did not take the devil by the horns, but taught followers how to withdraw from suffering - inner and outer. 


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: 3eyedgod]
    #1108418 - 12/03/02 09:50 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Love, as the Divine Nature in Christianity, DOES NOT have an opposite 'principle.' This is the religion of Zoroastrianism wherein Ultimate Reality is a duality, not One. Star Wars is a modern myth drawing on this kind of dualism of Dark and Light.

Love is a matter of 'will' or as phenomenological philosophers might say 'intentionality' - which is the one quality that consciousness is said to have as a universal - as an 'invariant feature.' If God is pure consciousness, [S]He is characterized by 'will,' or 'intentionality' or again, by 'identity' which I 'intend' here to be synonyms. If someone 'loves you' in the sense of a verb here, or really, as the creative aspect of the state of being which is love (noun), then one is actually 'willing that which is good' for you. Just how one person 'loves' another differs by the type of relationships we have with each other. They are all different - mother, brother, father, friend, lover, etc., but their 'will to goodness,' so-to-speak, stands behind whatever their actions are that manifest that goodness. As a professional counselor, I often act compassionately without acting passionately. As a matter of fact, I am forced by my position and responsibility and ethics to act dispassionately, but that does not diminish my compassion, just my passion or feelings.

I loved my mother, and as I held her hand as she died, I received the grace to mediate peace and fearlessness to her as I spoke, because I did not want to upset her by my own emotions. I cried after she flat-lined. I would want the same for me. The compassionate thing was for me to allay her fear and anxiety. 'Love' in the common use of the term, means attachment and desire. In the true, spiritual meaning it is willing the good, which in that moment had nothing to do with my own emotional self-indulgence. I hope the personal example helps to illustrate the meaning of love as the mediation of Divinity (Compassion, Peace, Selflessness), not mere feeling.

BTW, I never established the degree of Ultimate Reality that Scriptures embodies for me. I am far from a Bibliolator or a Fundamentalist, but you seem quite reactive to Scriptural quotation, and I would advise self-examination of that reactiveness.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1108530 - 12/03/02 10:38 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

on christmas day a couple years ago my grandfather died, he had suffered for years from small strokes that led from a loss of equilibreum to impaired memory, slurred speech, the inability to walk, and finally the inability to speak and intense chronic muscular pain. for the last year and a half of his life he could only type out small phrases on a little pocket computer. that christmas day, my cousin and i were outside this playground-park behind their house and smoked marijuana and hashish together, our first time together, and reminissed on all these wonderful childhood memories of spending time with our pap. he was a devout catholic, which always came across to me while growing up as "country-club" religion for wealthy republicans, loud and opinionated men who celebrated after mass with gourmet cooking, liquor, and games. i have a few memories of his theology, several repeated quotes - he told his friends who made racist comments that when they died, in heaven they'd find out that jesus was a black man. and that heaven was an enhancement of whatever you were passionate about, and since i was interested in fantasy novels, heaven would be something like these mythological worlds for me. and then there was his favorite poem, which he had recited so many times to me, and actually kept it in his pocket computer and read it daily.

"Abou Ben Adhem" was written by James Henry Leigh Hunt (1784-1859).

Abou Ben Adhem (may his tribe increase!)
Awoke one night from a deep dream of peace,
And saw, within the moonlight in his room,
Making it rich, and like a lily in bloom,
An Angel writing in a book of gold:
Exceeding peace had made Ben Adhem bold,
And to the Presence in the room he said,
"What writest thou?" The Vision raised its head,
And with a look made of all sweet accord
Answered, "The names of those who love the Lord."
"And is mine one?" said Abou. "Nay, not so,"
Replied the Angel. Abou spoke more low,
But cheerly still; and said, "I pray thee, then,
Write me as one that loves his fellow-men."

The Angel wrote, and vanished. The next night
It came again with a great wakening light,
And showed the names whom love of God had blessed,
And, lo! Ben Adhem's name led all the rest!

anyways, when my cousin and i came back to my grandparent's house (my grandfather had been in a nursing home for years), we learned that our grandfather was about to die, and everyone was to go and visit in pairs since his room was so small. when it was our turn to go, my pap's chest was heaving up and down so fast, he looked out of his mind and scared. i held his hand and congratulated him, told him 'you made it, pap!" and my cousin and i recounted all these memories of him... within 15 minutes or so he was breathing much better, and i don't know how much of it was the hemp, but things got very tibetan buddhist like and i was hallucinating strongly these awesome spiritual entities, and i had this feeling by the look of awe on his face we were sharing these visions... not much longer and he passed away... i cried after he died, which was a blessing for me since i seldomly do, and have since felt a stronger connection with my pap concerning biological and spiritual levels, his death turned something on in me that helped me understand myself better on several levels... i know this is off the main topic, but i just felt like sharing. blessings, cj


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Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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Anonymous

Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #1108796 - 12/04/02 12:17 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Thank you CJ. That was warm, heartfelt, and very moving.

May 'Pap' rest in peace.

Allow me to give you a humble 5 star rating for your attitude.

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #1109231 - 12/04/02 05:43 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks for the companionship of your reply. It is usually difficult for me to crawl out on an emotional limb, and do so only if I think it will help convey a truth, but I also feel like I'm high up in a tree and everyone is watching and waiting to see what will happen. Peace.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflineNomad
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1109420 - 12/04/02 08:24 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks for the great reply again. :laugh:

Perhaps you could locate one of the freaks around the planet who has himself nailed to a cross on Good Friday, and ask him if life is blissful.

Well, self-crucification has a rather long tradition among christians. The relationship between pain and religion is a tricky one. No doubt it is pathological most of the time, but also, it's obvious to me that pain is the best object for meditation. Pain will disappear if you look right into it, and if your thoughts stray, it will be unbearable.

I realized that while tripping in nature once. Nasty ants...

The fatal crucifixion of Jesus would have been more overwhelmingly painful than you obviously can imagine.

Again, I agree that being crucified will not lead to a warm and fluffy sensation in the body. Yet I miss your point. It seems like you are trying to convince me of something, but I don't quite get what it is. Do you really expect me to state that Jesus has suffered for my sins? Well, sir, if I have to choose someone who has suffered for my sins, I'd be glad to pick one of the buddhist monks who set himself on fire as a protest against the war in vietnam.

Get out of the ivory tower thinking.

I am glad to climb down from the ivory tower. You dragged me up there in the first place.

You prefer a blow job from a gorgeous sexy woman (if you're straight, otherwise adjust accordingly  ), than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.

I agree. Yes, I will prefer a blow job from a gorgeous sexy woman (if I'm straight, otherwise I'll adjust accordingly) over a poke in the eye with a sharp stick. Jesus, on the other hand, could have had lots of blow jobs from gorgeous sexy women (if he was straight, otherwise adjust accordingly), yet he preferred being nailed to a cross.

But here's a newsflash: Buddha, and Nirvana IS NOT equivalent to Christ and the Kingdom of Heaven/God.

I don't care about that. That statement is very much like Sclorch's idea that Nietzsche was a zen master. Could be, could not be, does not matter much. I don't know what nirvana is, and I certainly don't have a clue where the kingdom of heaven lies. But I am going in a certain direction, and I will take up every vehicle which aids me in getting there. Buddhism is a great vehicle for me, as it is easy to drive. People say that the bible is another great vehicle, yet I can't figure out how to start it. Leo Tolstoi gave me some clues, and another one is: "You are with me in paradise right now, here, hanging on the cross." That gave me a hint, a little understanding. You point out that this translation is wrong, which is fine to me, and I have to accept that, as you are obviously far more knowledgeable than me. Yet I must confess that, then, I don't have a fucking clue what "Verily I say unto you, today thou shalt be with me in paradise" could possibly mean. Your scientific approach to religion, which culminates in statements such as "Buddha, and Nirvana IS NOT equivalent to Christ and the Kingdom of Heaven/God.", is as interesting as it is useless, since it will neither get you closer to nirvana, nor into heaven. It is, according to Crowley, an act in black magick.

We would too. Gautama was another man, with another set of experiences, who withdrew from suffering, even the 'suffering' of having everything which he knew he would lose eventually. He did not take the devil by the horns, but taught followers how to withdraw from suffering - inner and outer.

It's my job to kill the buddha. Rest assured that if I have to, I'm going to kill Jesus, too.       

Edited by Nomad (12/04/02 08:28 AM)

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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Nomad]
    #1110085 - 12/04/02 01:48 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

didn't lenny bruce say something like "if jesus came back today, we'd kill him again"
christian "charity" (= caritas = agape = love) and buddhist lovingkindness (= karuna = compassion) have very much in common...
thomas merton was not the only christian trying to grok the buddhist mindset... and there ahve been many buddhists (& hindus & others) who can connect with much of the christian ethos (if not the christian mythos :wink: ...)
~
namaste
shalom


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care

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OfflineNomad
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: gnrm23]
    #1110106 - 12/04/02 01:58 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah, but the point being that it is commonly acknowledged in buddhism that, in order to become enlightened, you have to "kill the buddha", which means that, in the end, you have to find your own truth. If I would accept a part or all of the christian worldview, I would do it in order to kill Jesus. And I'm a very peaceful person, really.


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Offline3eyedgod
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1110113 - 12/04/02 02:00 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

I do not beleive that reality is a dualism. I beleive in the concept of one. Dark and Light for example are not truly seperate merely different ways of looking at the void. The void is still the void wether you see it as a pure infinite light or empty infinite darkness.

The way i see it, the one quality of consciousness that is universal is awareness.


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Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself

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Offline3eyedgod
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1110137 - 12/04/02 02:12 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

you seem quite reactive to Scriptural quotation, and I would advise self-examination of that reactiveness

I didn't think that my post was all that reactionary. However I suppose if there is any "reactive" quality to my reply, it is because most Christians seem to think that they have the right to force their beleifs on everyone else in the world. If you don't agree with them (these beleif forcing christians) then you are seen as misguided at best, evil at worst. Not to mention the fact that most Christians have about as much knowledge of their religion as i do (and that's pretty sad). Most don't examine their faith to see the meaning behind their scriptures or to see if it makes at least some degree of sense. Most simply blindly, stupidly beleive because that's what they were told to do. Blind beleif is one of the big problems of the world today. So many blindly beleiving in one view because that's what the so called "experts" were talking about on CNN (Bush takes advantage of the people's stupidity daily). Another example, Terrorists ramming 747's into skyscrapers in America, suicide bombing in Israel, Australia, Phillipines. The list goes on and on.

Wow this post was kind of all over the place. I kind of went off on a tangent in that last part. Maybe I should start my own post on that.


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Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: gnrm23]
    #1110709 - 12/04/02 04:55 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Lest anyone misinterpret my respect for Buddhism, I'd like to intrude upon my Mahayana Christian friend's post to say that today I received one of my Christmas gifts early: a bracelet that reads "OM MANI PADMA HUM" in Sanskrit, plus four vajras - my requested gift.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflineFliquid
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Swami]
    #1110777 - 12/04/02 05:13 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

...because fictional characters cannot. 




I love you man!  :grin: 


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:dancing: My latest music! :yesnod:

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Nomad]
    #1110853 - 12/04/02 05:38 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

What leaps out from your post to my eyes are: "pain is the best object for meditation:" Do you really expect me to state that Jesus suffered for my sins?"; the drawing upon Crowley as an authority on the two major 'High' religions; and "I'm going to kill Jesus too."

For me, I 'connect the dots' to see an undercurrent for which Crowley was a recent spokesperson. All I can tell you is that I had a permanent falling out with a well known editor of psychedelic literature, because I was unimpressed that he was trained in Tarot with Crowley's personal deck. I further added that Crowley set himself up as an enemy of Christ and the Kingdom that Christ came to establish. To place Will [Power] over Love in his formula is an obvious perversion of Christianity - an inversion of Christian value.

Pain, symbolizes several things, analytically taken, but is associated with the flesh, or with punishment (Hell) associated by over-indulgence in the Earthly existence, even to the point of demonic obsession with Earthly values. God alone is the worthy object of meditation and contemplation from my understanding. Lastly, I have zero expectation for your comprehension or acceptance of the 'vicarious sacrifice.' I question the doctrine myself, which is an extension of OT sacrificial religion, and made the basis for Christianity by Paul. The whole premiss of that theology may be inaccurate, but I will never throw the baby out with the bathwater. The entire passion play and mythological drama of Christ - historical or not - remains salvific for me. The myth-structure opens up a 'portal' or 'warp' in space-time so that the references to Christ being a "door" or a "way" makes sense to those of us who have passed through and been forever transformed into a different order of human beings - no longer in 'flames,' but in 'Light.'

Lastly, one does have to make a decision ultimately, as to Whom one's Master is, and that decision is precious, not useless. One cannot walk upon different paths simultneously, and all paths do not arrive at the same destination. On can learn from other walks of life, but one always has to make a committment if one is to go anywhere in particular. That means sacrificing other things. Jesus sacrificed his life, which included romantic, familial and erotic elements. When one marries, and commits, one sacrifices opportunities to 'know' other women sexually - or one is not truly married or committed. One path excludes another and limitation is accepted in the process.

Again, sometimes one can find consonance (Buddhist karma = "as ye sow, so shall ye reap."), and then one learns from another path. But to affirm that Ultimate Reality is ONLY the impersonal Void, and there is no personal God, is why Hinduism in great measure rejected Buddhism as a heresy, an error, and why Christianity cannot be consonant with it. My job is to 'understand' [Binah], which leads to wisdom [Chokmah], which leads to the One.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Offlinejohnnyfive
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: 3eyedgod]
    #1111472 - 12/04/02 08:14 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Would like to tell me who god is then?

Ever seen the beginning of religion on this earth, we've been living in spiritual darkness, and soon we will find out that all along we-were the one's who were gods.

Ya know mushrooms have been a part of most religions in the world, at one time. Epecially the bible, and the bible has alot of spirituallity in it.

"Man (refering to everyone) won't talk to me for 1000 years", was something said in the bible, Issaiha i believe (something like that).

Maybe "ME" coniusousness, what do ya think?


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And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!

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Offline3eyedgod
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1111538 - 12/04/02 08:32 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

One cannot walk upon different paths simultneously, and all paths do not arrive at the same destination.

I couldn't disaree more with that second part.  I think that when it is all said and done we all end up in the same place.  We will come full circle.  We will all return from wherever we all came from.  I happen to beleive that is conciousness without form or structure or boundary, and no concept of right or wrong.  Just pure awareness, pure "isness".

As 1st part of that i'm not sure.  If we are all one consciousness(as i beleive) we could be living out every possibility(infinite) all at once.  I think quantum mechanics would grant some credibility to this.

But hey, I could be wrong about everything.  If i'm wrong and the Christian god is that which awaits us after death, then i'll be damned to hell for not accepting christ as my savior.  I will pledge my soul to lucifer and spend all eternity helping to bring about the downfall of that judgemental, arrogant,devious, unempathetic, uncaring, cruel trickster of a godhead.

Oh, did i forget to mention my qualms with the Christian deity in my previous post :grin:     


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Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself

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Offline3eyedgod
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: johnnyfive]
    #1111546 - 12/04/02 08:36 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

You obviously haven't read many of my posts. If you had you may have noticed that my beleifs seem to be quite similar to your own.

As for the part about "we" have been living in spiritual darkness, that is a subjective statement. It would also depend on which "we" you are referring to. I hardly think that the Buddhists would fit into the category of "spiritual darkness" as you are using that term.

Did you even read my signature?


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Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself

Edited by 3eyedgod (12/04/02 08:39 PM)

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: 3eyedgod]
    #1111597 - 12/04/02 08:57 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

I think that you've been watching too many devil movies during your outdoor suspensions - probably for graffiti - of inverted pentagrams and stuff.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Offline3eyedgod
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1111625 - 12/04/02 09:06 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

I don't beleive in the devil anymore than i beleive in the Christian god. I'm just saying if the christian theology is correct and i end up in hell god better watch out.


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Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself

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OfflineMurex
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: 3eyedgod]
    #1111641 - 12/04/02 09:12 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

When saying it like that, refer to it as "God".  :wink:


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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Offline3eyedgod
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Murex]
    #1111644 - 12/04/02 09:14 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

lol :laugh:


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Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself

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OfflineNomad
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1112550 - 12/05/02 02:40 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

What leaps out from your post to my eyes are: "pain is the best object for meditation:" Do you really expect me to state that Jesus suffered for my sins?"; the drawing upon Crowley as an authority on the two major 'High' religions; and "I'm going to kill Jesus too."

LOL. You gotta love the human ability for pattern recognition...  :tongue:

That Crowley reference was basically just bait. I remembered from another thread that you had been into magick in your early years. However, the guy said some smart things (but then, who didn't?). "Every magical act which is not directed towards re-establishing the original unity is black magick." And science is magick, of course.

Lastly, I have zero expectation for your comprehension or acceptance of the 'vicarious sacrifice.' I question the doctrine myself, which is an extension of OT sacrificial religion, and made the basis for Christianity by Paul. The whole premiss of that theology may be inaccurate, but I will never throw the baby out with the bathwater. The entire passion play and mythological drama of Christ - historical or not - remains salvific for me.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Lastly, one does have to make a decision ultimately, as to Whom one's Master is, and that decision is precious, not useless. One cannot walk upon different paths simultneously, and all paths do not arrive at the same destination.

Have to disagree. We are gifted with the possibility to choose among many paths. Abandoning that wealth for narrow historical reasons is contraproductive. Spiritual seekers in the past did not limit themselves to one path because of rational decisions, but because there was nothing more available.

Likewise, the attitude that one has to "choose his master" has likely been a valuable one in other times and other cultures. Right here, in this fucked up 20th century western civilization, with all it's garbage of authoritarianism and dogmatism, it won't be of much help, and, in fact, is rather dangerous. Lots of abusive teacher/student relationships around here. No master for me, thank you.

On can learn from other walks of life, but one always has to make a committment if one is to go anywhere in particular. That means sacrificing other things.

Certainly.

Again, sometimes one can find consonance (Buddhist karma = "as ye sow, so shall ye reap."), and then one learns from another path. But to affirm that Ultimate Reality is ONLY the impersonal Void, and there is no personal God, is why Hinduism in great measure rejected Buddhism as a heresy, an error, and why Christianity cannot be consonant with it.

You might notice that I have defended people's right to believe around here, including the belief in a personal god. But I'm very much of a pragmatist, and belief for it's own sake I cannot stand.

Reality, of course, is neither impersonal Void, nor personal God. It is three pounds of flax.

       

Edited by Nomad (12/05/02 09:01 AM)

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OfflineNomad
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Nomad]
    #1112553 - 12/05/02 02:43 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Right here, in this fucked up 20th century western civilization, with all it's garbage of authoritarianism and dogmatism, it won't be of much help, and, in fact, is rather dangerous.

Uh... what was the century again?

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OfflineNomad
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1112703 - 12/05/02 03:40 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

On a sidenote, you misread me rather heavily, and I'd risk to say you did that deliberately after my reference to Crowley. Can't say I didn't provoke it, though, so I'll appreciate it.

Pain, symbolizes several things, analytically taken, but is associated with the flesh, or with punishment (Hell) associated by over-indulgence in the Earthly existence, even to the point of demonic obsession with Earthly values. God alone is the worthy object of meditation and contemplation from my understanding.

Goddamn... (sorry). Don't scare me, man. What I meant was (and, hey, it was fucking obvious from the context, no?) meditating on the experience of pain, not the concept of pain. Arguing that the pain experienced when sitting cross-legged (or because of those nasty ants) is not God would be a futile standpoint, and a very dualistic one at that. Not to speak of denial.



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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Nomad]
    #1112778 - 12/05/02 04:54 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

"if you meet the buddha on the road, kill that fellow"
well, that is most assuredly a statement from a zen master, but...
not all buddhists are in the zen tradition... and the majority of the worlds buddhists do revere old shakyamuni (even zennists :wink: ...)(then there's the story about the master burning the manuscripts to keep warm: when discovered in the act, the one feeding the fire was asked "what are you doing?" to which he replied "what are you saying?" ; and yet the majority of those in the zen tradition, as well as other mahayanists, and those following theraveda, vajrayana, vipassana, and other tradtions, all study the scriptures...)
~
hmmmm....
hinduism and buddhism...
well, yeah, buddhism sprang out of the hindu currents (as did jainism & several others over the last couple millenia) --- buddha's rejection of an abiding soul (anatta vs. atman) and his statements about man's not needing  the help of the god(s) in his struggle for liberation (and probably his rejection of the caste system, heh...) set buddhism at major odds with the dominant hindu culture... and today buddhism is a very minor religion within mother india, though it certainly spread quite widely elsewhere in asia! (although many hindus acknowledge the historical buddha as an avatar - as they likewise acknowledge christ, and many other saints, sages, and saviors to be incarnations of one aspect or another of the underlying godhead/brahman)
~
in the book _conversations christians and buddhist_ (with poet gary snyder, as well as prominent christian and buddhist leaders), and in books by folks such as thomas merton, frederick frank, and the dalai lama, it is obvious that christians and buddhists can agree about many things, while _respecfully_ disagreeing about other things...
~
i know there was a book about zen catholicism... and i have heard of a guy talking about being a zen baptist... and i am working on developing zen lutheranism :wink: ...
~
as to the reason for suffering, and the intrinsic nature of man, and the ultimate destination that all of us must eventually deal with... well, sometimes the clearest message is from those who maintain "a noble silence" ... (not from this chattering monkey, obviously :wink: ...)
~
peace be with you
shanti om


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care

Edited by gnrm23 (12/05/02 05:01 AM)

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: 3eyedgod]
    #1112790 - 12/05/02 05:32 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Did I say suspension? Maybe you should acquaint yourself with the meaning of 'expulsion,' and then extend the concept to the metaphysical level.

Of course I'm being ridiculous, but your responses are very silly. Millennia old traditions for communicating the nature of Ultimate Reality, namely, Christendom - does not depend on your momentary existence for validation. You, on the other hand, reveal much about yourself by professions of unbelief. The vertical relationship is between you and God, but the horizontal relationship between people is what I'm referring to. Without a morality grounded in a metaphysic I can respect, a person is just not to be trusted - in word or deed.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

Edited by MarkostheGnostic (12/05/02 05:42 AM)

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OfflineSHR00M0L0GIST
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1112934 - 12/05/02 08:07 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

I choose not to bother myself with religion much. I think its a waste of time really. I believe in karma. What people have to realize is that we are all one on this earth. We are one with all living things. If this world was full of positive energy/good karma then it would be damned close to heaven. This world causes us all to seperate ourselves from one another which throws off the balance of life itself. Thats why this world is so fucked up. If all humans would work together to make this a better place, it would be. It all comes down to human will power and karma really. People look in all the wrong places for love/happiness. You will never find love or happiness in anything on this earth till you find it within yourself.

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Offline3eyedgod
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1114584 - 12/05/02 04:16 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Millennia old traditions for communicating the nature of Ultimate Reality, namely, Christendom - does not depend on your momentary existence for validation.

In my personal subjective universe, my momentary existance is all that's "required" for validation of anything.

You, on the other hand, reveal much about yourself by professions of unbelief.

What exactly did i reveal about myself (to you, or in other words what did you perceive in your personal subjective universe). You don't beleive in my beleifs, why should I have to beleive in yours.

The vertical relationship is between you and God, but the horizontal relationship between people.

Are you saying that we are equal to other people but god is higher than us? Most christians I know think God is higher than us and that there higher than other people. Vertical and Horizantal only apply in the space time continum. The higher power I beleive in exists outside the continum.

Without a morality grounded in a metaphysic I can respect, a person is just not to be trusted - in word or deed.

In a morality not grounded in a metaphysic YOU respect, a person is not to be trusted by YOU in word or deed. I'm sorry I don't need the threat of an intangible parent that will "spank" me if I don't obey.

Would you like to know what you've revealed about yourself to me?

1)You seem to be quite aggressive towards anyone who holds beleifs in contrary to your own. Perhaps you are just the typical Christian who beleives it is their right or should I say duty to force their beleifs on someone else.

2)In one of your posts you call the people who nail themselves to crosses "Sadomasochistic Freaks". In another post you say that you MUST choose your MASTER. This is quite possibly an indicator that you have sadomasochistic tendencies yourself. If that is the case you are a hypocrite. Perhaps instead of critiquing others so quicky, you would do well to examine your self a little better.



--------------------
Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: 3eyedgod]
    #1114870 - 12/05/02 06:07 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Your response indicates that you need to re-read my response.

A) I never mentioned by name Whom MY Master was, so there is no attempt to force Him on you or anyone. 'Force,' coercion, manipulation are all Manipura Chakra motives, which just happen to be minimal in my personality.

B) Likewise for my beliefs. Firstly, they are under continual reconstruction, not a finished product, so they also cannot be 'forced' on you or anyone. Nor do I desire to do that. I don't care what you believe or don't believe. I'm more interested in clarifying matters, but I sometimes enter in before I am invited in - if that is 'aggression' to you.

C) You did not get the metaphors. "horizontal" and "vertical" are commonly used terms to convey a sense of the temporal, social or mundane existence we live on the planet, or the transpersonal/transcendental dimension to our lives, respectively. The terms are themselves spacio-temporal, but not intended to be taken literally.

D) I assure you that the metaphysics that I respect are 1: not anthropomorphic, 2: not introjected superego constructs [your "parent"] and 3: not exclusively Christian. Metaphysics I can and do repsect may be Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish, Christian or Islamic. They may even be a Wiccan 'An harm ye none,' but they will not be some chaos theory, or a metaphysic in which probability or chaos translates into some moral relativity, antinomianism or anarchy. There will be 'lawfulness' involved - not rigid, codified lawfulness, but the 'orde'r of one's motives and behaviors by Compassion, because the metaphysic in question clearly manifests itself in the human being as Compassion. In a nutshell: I cannot trust a metaphysic that does not center on Compassion. Then again, just because someone 'says' they believe in "Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful," for example, doesn't mean that they really do.

E) Both of your conclusions are wrong Incidentally, I specified "masochistic," not sadomasochistic.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

Edited by MarkostheGnostic (12/05/02 06:11 PM)

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OfflineMurex
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1114887 - 12/05/02 06:13 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Why stress yourself figuring this Jesus thing out? Religon is for the weak-minded.

Think for yourself, question authority.  :wink:


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Murex]
    #1115601 - 12/05/02 09:49 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Because I'm obviously an inarticulate, borderline imbecile, with practical no mind at all.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Anonymous

Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1116168 - 12/06/02 12:51 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Don't be so hard on yourself dude. :wink:

:grin:

I rather enjoyed the dialogue between you and the other members, especially Nomad.  The guy can think!  That's dangerous. :wink:  :grin:

Cheers, 

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Invisible1stimer
Religion=Rape
Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1,280
Loc: Amerika
Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Phluck]
    #1118395 - 12/06/02 07:35 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

jesus is alive and well. he is called osama


--------------------
ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.

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