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PsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess
Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Seuss]
#1963915 - 09/29/03 07:42 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Suess,
silversoul called it a FACT (all caps nonetheless) my response was to him.
Im not bashing evolutionists. But if people wish to say something is a fact that is a Theory (as you said) Ill let them know there are many holes in their facts.
This is the part that I have trouble with. My relationship is with the almighty directly... me and "", no intermidate, no Jesus, no Mary, nothing except faith. I have no need to build huge cathedrals to show my faith. I don't need to wear symbols to remind me of my debt for life. I don't need to pay some guy to stand up and tell me how to act. I don't need some book telling me how people in the past think I should behave. All I need is the blessing that I have been given and the simple path I have been shown to follow.
And Im not saying that what you said isnt enough. Im not judging you. But with the question that was asked. I was answering it. You can have your beliefs, Im glad that you have questioned and found your answers. Im just giving my opinion and what I honestly feel the Lord has led me to in MY life. Your mileage my vary.
Christians need pay no money or have no church intermediate.. but Jesus is not an intermediate. He is the way and the life... And the Bible is the word of God. You dont have to accept that. It's your perogative. But again, it has spoke to me in my life. With the Lord, my life has changed in ways I never thought possible. When something effects you that profoundly because you open your heart to it.. you cannot help but listen.
God is also hate and vengence. ... and they shall know that I am the lord, when I lay my vengeance upon them.
OT. My God is love, you can pull whatever isolated scripture out of the old testament that you wish to. Just try not to ignore the thousands of others.
Of course you are! Open your eyes and see. I understand the point you are trying to make.. but, Im not. Im full of many things, but I fall way short of perfect love. I fall way short of good sometimes. In acknowledging that, I can strive to love more.. I can continuously open up my heart. But I will not settle, I will not fall victim to pride. Pride is the worst of all sins.
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PsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess
Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Twirling]
#1963928 - 09/29/03 07:46 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Spirituality is all about personal opinions.
Comprehension of what you read, wether the Bible or a tom clancy novel is all about personal experiences and opinions. You cannot empirically answer every question under the sun. You say that people's opinion differs from what was originally said. But obviously it differs from your opinion of what was said.. people have their beliefs for a reason.
All I can give you is my opinion. My experience. To try to claim it as fact would be nothing but a lie.
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Papaver
Madmin Emeritus?
Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 26,880
Loc: Radio Free Tibet!
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
#1963945 - 09/29/03 07:50 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
silversoul7 said: If that's the case, then why would anyone not go to heaven?
Because we have freedom of choice. That's the way God wanted it. It's a pretty nice set-up, actually. It's like when your parents go away for vacation, and they leave you all alone in their big house -- you can throw really wild parties, but then you have to clean up afterwards before they get home...
PS: Christ didn't die for my sins. He made me an offer once, but I told him, I was cool with them -- they weren't such a big burden, after all...
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Anonymous
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Papaver]
#1964071 - 09/29/03 08:32 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Why was it a big deal that Christ died for our sins?
It wouldn't be so bad hanging from a cross until I die if I know for a fact that my dad is God and I will spend eternity in heaven... I mean, I'm thoroughly unimpressed.
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automan
blasted chipmunk
Registered: 09/18/03
Posts: 8,272
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: ]
#1964124 - 09/29/03 08:54 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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we dont actually have the "free will" to chose what is going to happen to us (whether we go to the christain heaven or hell). if god, as most christains contend, knows everything that has happened and everything that will happen, then he knows what choices we are going to mke....even before we make them. so, the day we are sent to earth as newborns, he knows if we are going to hell. why would god do that? to me, it doesnt make any sense.
-------------------- No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. ~ Niels Bohr
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
#1964159 - 09/29/03 09:06 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
So, we all evolved from some big bang theory and came from apes, eh?
Lots a people dont think science is all that scientific on that one and there are many flaws and loopholes in the evolution theory. If you'd like to read them, you may want to check out the current suit in the texas courts about how if we are going to teach evolution.. we atleast need to be honest and also teach the people about all the little nonexplanables that evolutionists are taking as "faith" in science.
The Big Bang theory is completely separate from evolution. By the way, people keep saying "Theory of Evolution" but it's actually "Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection," aka Darwinism. So yes, Darwinism is still theory, but evolution is an observed fact. That's right, scientists have actually observed microscopic bacteria evolving. Of course, evolution from our ape-like ancestors to modern man took considerably longer,(6 million years) and therefore would be impossible to observe. If you'd like to learn more about evolution, check out this site.
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But I ask you, have you read the Bible, from beginning to end? The time is coming, as many other have stated... and its good that you are asking these questions.. just dont let your preconcieved notions or someone else's christianity turn you away from God. Not mine, not anyones.
I have read most of the Bible, with the exception of the Book of Revelation and a few of the prophetic books of the Old Testament. I don't know it inside and out, but from what I've read, I found it to be full of hate, intolerance, contradiction, and superstition. This is also after 4 years of Catholic High School.
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You can work to better yourself, we all should strive to do that.. and yes, we can better ourselves through self discipline. But we cant make ourselves perfect, we cant redeem our fall from grace.
Why must we all be perfect? The little imperfections of life are what make it all the more worth living.
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What kind of proof are you looking for, friend? I mean, the bible was indeed written by real people whose real lives can be traced. It didnt just appear in a poof of smoke from the air. God let his word come through the mouths of men for people like you. For questions like that.
But why the Bible and not the Koran, or some other sacred text? Why should I believe one when it says it is divinely inspired, but not the other?
Quote:
And I just dont understand.. can you please tell me just what in the bible doesnt reconcile with your thought of God? What in the Bible is so bad and is so far from the word of any possible God? You just dont agree with the thought of Jesus beging sent to die for our sins? Or do you not believe in God, at all?
I already explained my beef with the Bible, but it's about it being bad. It's about how reliable it is. Why did God give me give me a choice between heaven and hell, without providing any credible proof of the source? You're asking me to blindly believe in something without any proof because I'll supposedly go to Hell if I don't. Well I refuse to worship any God that would punish critical thinking and reason. If that means burning in the Lake of Fire, then so be it. I do not wish to be with an asshole God like that.
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You say, we are God. Yes, on a way we are all parts of God.. But we are NOT GOD. God is love and darling, you sure arent completely full of love, either am I.
God is infinite, so therefore there cannot be anything that is not God. Therefore everthing is God, and we are all one.
-------------------- "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Anonymous
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
#1964202 - 09/29/03 09:23 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Lots a people dont think science is all that scientific on that one and there are many flaws and loopholes in the evolution theory. If you'd like to read them, you may want to check out the current suit in the texas courts about how if we are going to teach evolution.. we atleast need to be honest and also teach the people about all the little nonexplanables that evolutionists are taking as "faith" in science.
what are these nonexplanables? the entire field of biology makes sense only through evolution, nothing else. from the beginning of the earth and the formation of cell-like aggregates, to the formation of cells, dna, and "survival of the fitest", biology can explain to great detail the existence of life on this planet. i find hard to believe you can discredit the wealth of scientific evidence that is currently in front of our faces. please reference to me these "faith" nonexplanables as i will happily debate them.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
#1964235 - 09/29/03 09:38 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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It sounds like you've done to Christian theology what Jews did to Jewish theology after Abraham. You've rendered the freedom of Spirit into laws and doctrines to be followed mechanically. Moreover, like most people, you simply have accepted the canon as it is presented to posterity by Irenaeus and the other Church Fathers, and by Constantine the Emperor. And, like most people, you might rationalize that since GOD is in control, it has all been ordained by GOD Himself in the multiple forms that we havein English alone. Not to pick on you personally, but rather, the wholesale buying into what has been added to by the discovery of the Gospel of Mary Magdalen in 1896, and the Nag Hammadi library in 1945, and other writings - some bogus, some priceless. Do not allow external authority to determine for you what is right and true. These are men, not gods who made these decisions. Be informed by GOD's spirit of discernment.
Salvation history continues people. The question that started this thread pertains to the theology of the 'vicarious sacrifice,' which Paul championed. The Gospel of Thomas suggests an entirely different interpretation of Jesus the Christ. The canon is NOT infallible in any sense of the meaning. Paul himself was dead wrong about the immanent historical return of Jesus, coming in clouds of glory. Paul's very understanding of these things may have been completely flawed, which is why Christianity was able to become misused as a banner for conquest (megalomania), inquisition (sadism), persecution, witch hunt (more misogyny), and incredible greed (Vatican treasure for example).
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
#1965057 - 09/30/03 02:37 AM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Funguy said: Before Christ came along, the Jewish people had to have an atonement sacrifice once a year to cleanse the people of the sins for that year.
They HAD to? Does sacrificing goats really make you free from your sins? Is there really someone out there that holds our sins agansit us until we repent and ask forgiveness? I mean, it is one thing to recoginze how our actions end up effecting the world around us, but to believe that we will go to Hell because we don't ask forgiveness is foolish.
So, after Christ died, did the Jewish people stop sacrificing, even though they didn't actually believe that Christ was the Son of God and that they would no longer have to make their own sacrifices?
Quote:
SilverSoul7, Christ was basically God in the flesh. You cannot accept that Christ died for your sins and then denouce the Christian faith.
We are all God in the flesh. Especially me. Peace.
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: fivepointer]
#1965062 - 09/30/03 02:42 AM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Beware of those who cite Scriptures to prove a point... they just might not think for themselves. Peace.
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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DankBluntZ
We know little
Registered: 01/29/03
Posts: 184
Loc: florida
Last seen: 18 years, 2 months
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: Do not allow external authority to determine for you what is right and true. These are men, not gods who made these decisions.
Isn't that what believing in religion is all about? Im going to listen to your reason and not believe these external authorities. Your entire religion is based on external authorities. External authorities that lived in a time when religion was used to lull the masses into compliance. Sorry I think i'll leave you to the buying of "wholesale" reproduced religions.
ps- dont take this offensively I am typing this with many hours of sleep deprivation
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Zahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 19 years, 5 months
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: DankBluntZ]
#1965422 - 09/30/03 08:39 AM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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These 'external authorities' are more or less designed for the not-so-intuitive masses.
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Shroomism
Space Travellin
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,015
Loc: 9th Dimension
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
#1965466 - 09/30/03 08:54 AM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Evolving from apes would not take 6 billion years.. if we had help from an external source.. I don't know..say.... genetic engineering.
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Anonymous
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Shroomism]
#1965479 - 09/30/03 09:00 AM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Evolving from apes would not take 6 billion years
the earth is only six billion years old, so it took far less than that to evolve from apes. what makes you think that it couldn't happen in any given time-span, lets say 90,000,000 years. you can honestly say that you conceive that number and have such a firm grasp on evolution as to say it couldn't happen in that time frame??
musta been the aliens!!!
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HidingInPlainSight
Registered: 01/27/03
Posts: 2,077
Loc: Oklahoma City , OK, USA
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
#1965526 - 09/30/03 09:40 AM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Funguy has it right.
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DoctorJ
Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
Loc: space
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
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Quote:
It sounds like you've done to Christian theology what Jews did to Jewish theology after Abraham. You've rendered the freedom of Spirit into laws and doctrines to be followed mechanically. Moreover, like most people, you simply have accepted the canon as it is presented to posterity by Irenaeus and the other Church Fathers, and by Constantine the Emperor. And, like most people, you might rationalize that since GOD is in control, it has all been ordained by GOD Himself in the multiple forms that we havein English alone. Not to pick on you personally, but rather, the wholesale buying into what has been added to by the discovery of the Gospel of Mary Magdalen in 1896, and the Nag Hammadi library in 1945, and other writings - some bogus, some priceless. Do not allow external authority to determine for you what is right and true. These are men, not gods who made these decisions. Be informed by GOD's spirit of discernment.
that was a really groovy post Markos
5 shrooms for you!
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Funguy
Homo SapiensEntheogenous
Registered: 01/07/03
Posts: 2,415
Loc: Muffy
Last seen: 2 years, 9 months
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
Funguy said: Before Christ came along, the Jewish people had to have an atonement sacrifice once a year to cleanse the people of the sins for that year.
They HAD to? Does sacrificing goats really make you free from your sins? Is there really someone out there that holds our sins agansit us until we repent and ask forgiveness? I mean, it is one thing to recoginze how our actions end up effecting the world around us, but to believe that we will go to Hell because we don't ask forgiveness is foolish.
So, after Christ died, did the Jewish people stop sacrificing, even though they didn't actually believe that Christ was the Son of God and that they would no longer have to make their own sacrifices?
Listen to this. The wages of sin is death. Christ has been shown throughout the OT. Spreading the lamb's blood on the door so the Angel of Death would pass. The bronze serpent, etc. Since sin=death, a blood offering must be given. A perfect ram, or bull must be killed in order to shed the sins (there were other sacrifices as well). God sent Christ to be THE sacrifice, so that we do not have to keep every single law (for if you break one, you break them all). After Jesus committed his spirit to the Lord, the Veil of the Holy of Holies in the temple was ripped from the top to the bottom. Only the highest priest could enter after his sins were cleasned. Even then, he had a rope tied around his waist in case he died. The tearing of the Veil signified that now ANYBODY can go to God through Christ. That is why the Jewish people do not sacrifice any more. The point I'm trying to make is that Heaven, Nirvana, etc. is a FREE GIFT to anybody who believes that Christ died for their sins. You don't have to shun away from most desires, eat any special food, and hold up any spiritual laws. "Everything is permissible but not everything is beneficial." No grueling work is involved, just believe. Don't expect to instantly understand the whole Bible. I recommend starting with John, then the other books of the NT. Nobody can fully understand what God is thinking. But throughout the Bible, God is unconditionally loving, holy, perfect. God does not have a vengeful, truly wrathful, or evil side. Sodom, Gomorrah, and other cities, people, etc that were destroyed came from God's Holy judgement. If you noticed, most of the time these people had PLENTY of time to repent, but never did. Time is running out.
-------------------- OTD UNDERDOGS Is attention your retarded heroin?
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
#1965899 - 09/30/03 12:01 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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The wages of sin is death? Then why do good people die? Personally, I don't plan on living forever anyway.
-------------------- "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Funguy
Homo SapiensEntheogenous
Registered: 01/07/03
Posts: 2,415
Loc: Muffy
Last seen: 2 years, 9 months
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
#1965937 - 09/30/03 12:16 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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When God first created Adam and Eve, they were supposed to live forever, both physically and spiritually. When they ate of the Fruit of the Tree of the Knowlege of Good and Evil, they died spiritually. They also died physically, but not right away. Christ came that we could live forever spiritually, and just wait until the New Jerusalem comes! Our bodies are temporary, our souls are forever. The Lake of Fire was specifically created for Satan and his minions, not us. Satan knows his fate, and is trying to take as many people as he can. Everybody will be judged based on what they KNOW. I cannot say what God will do with someone who never heard of Christ, because I am not God. I'm not forcing anybody to convert to Christianity. I am simply stating my beliefs in hoping that whoever reads them will seriously take to heart what I am saying. I don't reply to these post to show how smart I am, or to make fun of those who disagree with me. I post because I truly care where you will be in the afterlife for eternity. Just believe.
-------------------- OTD UNDERDOGS Is attention your retarded heroin?
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Amnesiac
Re-memberingcosmic wisdom
Registered: 03/30/03
Posts: 188
Loc: Unknown
Last seen: 19 years, 5 months
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
#1965944 - 09/30/03 12:20 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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I communicate with what everyone calls "god" on my own, 1on1, with no middle man, institution or book of truth leading me there.
In my humble opinion, this is the best way to know the great spirit of which we are all a part. Religion seems to only confuse things, divide people and nations, create mass conflict.
If only we could all just stop looking for proof, references, guidebooks, teachers, etc and just take a look around. Look at the world, the universe, people, and inside yourself. You'll realize that this "god" you seek is everywhere, and you don't have to do any dances or jump through any hoops to be forgiven, or receive your ticket to eternal paradise.
I don't know about all of you, but the god I know forgives everything instantly, no matter who you are or what you've done. That's the thing about unconditional love... It's UN-conditional!
It's all so much simpler and easier than some of you believe.
I live by a simple way:
1) Don't hurt anybody 2) Grow by experiencing life 3) Practice compassion
I'm sure Jesus would agree. I for one do not need a book of a thousand pages to learn what is known in my soul. You can find everything inside yourself. I reccomend using extreme caution when deciding to have faith in external sources of supposed truth pertaining to the greatest questions of life.
Beware alterior motives in the most trusted of places.
-------------------- Here we are, in these bodies, on this planet in an endless universe. This is not the extent of who we are... merely an extension of who we really are.
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