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OfflineZahid
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Siphersh]
    #1979904 - 10/04/03 11:00 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Well, it's when people start assuming who's saved and who isn't is when problems arise. I personally view Christians who see Muslims as unsaved as intolerant - and vise versa for Muslims who believe Christians and Jews [don't even mention non-high religions - every Muslim and their mother denounces these] are unsaved unless they convert to Islam.

One Love, a Million and One good intentions. :smile: 


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OfflineSiphersh
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Zahid]
    #1979911 - 10/04/03 11:03 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

"Radical" is a bad word. Right. I used it in its original meaning. "Of the roots"... sorry, I have ignored its bad connotations...


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OfflineSiphersh
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1979929 - 10/04/03 11:14 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Acceptance, tolerance, belief... hm... The point of saying something about the One Truth is that you talk about something that is absolute in validity. Saying "you are wrong and go to hell, but I still love you, and tolerate you" is not an honestly christly perspective. And if something is in contradiction with my belief, I cannot say "I dont know if it's right", for that would invalidate my own belief. Being christian means this sometimes-unconvenient inliberalism. It's no big deal tolerating buddhism, if you are not a real fundamentalist christian. Seeing the "One" in "One Truth" is much deeper than being liberal towards all religions.


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OfflineSiphersh
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Zahid]
    #1979942 - 10/04/03 11:21 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

It's just so unreal, that most christians _know_ that 'you shouldnt judge' (sorry if uncorrect formulated), and still they believe, that they deserve a certain amount of judgement on others... This is the most ridiculous aspect of being a not-christly christian... "I do not judge, I just say my opinion". I am not perfect either, but I would never try to justify my deeds that do not correspond with the Teaching


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OfflineRastafari
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1979953 - 10/04/03 11:28 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
I'm having trouble figuring out exactly what Christians mean when they say Christ died for our sins. So does that mean all our sins are forgiven? If that's the case, then why would anyone not go to heaven?




i think (but i'm not sure, as i havent studied the bible)
that they mean , he came down from heaven to suffer all these horrible things, in order to teach us whats right

which is true in the terms of hinduism and mahatmas (saints, great souls)

They say the cycle of birth and death (and rebirth) is out of our karma... so to break the cycle and return to our source, we wouldnt have to be reborn anymore...

which makes sense that when an avatar takes the body, its out of love to teach the people...

I heard a story ;

There was this big wall on the edge of a town...and people would try to get up but no one would ever get over it... and people kept trying and trying....finally a person made it up after like 4 months... and when he got ontop he said "Ah!..." and hopped over never to be seen again

finally 3 or 4 months later, another person got up... and he looked for a few seconds and said "wow" and then went right over....well after 2 months, one of the guys came back and said "there is a beautiful garden with tree's and fruit and all the food you can eat! Here, give me your hand and I will help you up"


thats what a saint is... a living roll model... The ego prevents so many people from benefiting and actually searching for these people because they think that its not possible. Or I think they feel (perhaps subconciously) that its a personal attack on them, somone who people says is pure and wise...

I want everybody just to consider the possibility that jesus - or buddha - or perhaps the source of them both... has already 'return'ed and exists breathing the same air we do right now... in human form

isnt that an interesting idea?

I beleive with all of my being that this is so.


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I&I


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OfflineSiphersh
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Rastafari]
    #1979983 - 10/04/03 11:44 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

"Christ died for our sins"... there is a surface of this truth, which is not easy to understand, for it was explained 2000 years ago, and cultura-lingual reality has changed a lot since then. I think that the point is that he _is_ the gate back to connection, and by his human life it bacame possible for us to connect back. The connection is the holy spirit, which he brought us.

I think that most of the obstacles to understand this might be of nearly 2000 years of changing language. We do not know the actual correspondense between our reality, and the symbolics of that ancient language, the bible was written. Eat some mushrooms, and try to find out directly, without the mediation of language... :-)

But it might have a deeper, mystical meaning, or a meaning related to history, and the fulfillment of God's plan, or something like that...


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OfflineFunguy
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1981165 - 10/05/03 01:55 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Why did Jesus have to die for us in order for God to love us?





No, it's not like that. Jesus died BECAUSE God loved us. He wants us to live in Heaven with him, so he offered us a free gift of salvation.
Yes, a tree has many branches, but if one doesn't bear fruit, do you let it stay on the tree? Or do you prune it, allowing more nutrients to go to the fruiting branches.

"Also I say to you, whoever confesses Me before men, him the Son o Man also will confess before the angels of God. But he who denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God." Luke 12:8-9

"And Jesus said to them, 'I am the bread of life. He who cmes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you tha have seen Me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to me I will by no means cast out.'" John 6:35-37

"He who believes in Me, believes not in Me but in Him who sent Me. And he who sees Me sees Him who sent Me. I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness. And if anyone hears my words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him- the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. And I know that His command is everlasting life." John 12: 44b-50a


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OTD UNDERDOGS

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
    #1981195 - 10/05/03 02:03 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Question: Why would God offer only one route to salvation? Why must we believe in something unproven rather than simply acting compassionately towards our fellow man? Wouldn't it be better to act in a Christ-like manner than to simply believe in Jesus Christ? The whole salvation-through-faith thing seems like a practical joke to me.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
    #1981200 - 10/05/03 02:06 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

?snooze?... ?falls asleep? ?dreams about clouds floating by?....
:grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineRastafari
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1981223 - 10/05/03 02:20 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Question: Why would God offer only one route to salvation? Why must we believe in something unproven rather than simply acting compassionately towards our fellow man? Wouldn't it be better to act in a Christ-like manner than to simply believe in Jesus Christ? The whole salvation-through-faith thing seems like a practical joke to me.




faith can be interpreted many different ways

but yea, your right... people like jesus/ buddha came as roll models so we would also do good deeds... thats much more important than simply saying I beleive in the one who does good

but faith is a little different than just saying that...and can have many different meanings

also, the only one route to salvation - is something that I beleive was added into the bible at later times, to scare people into their religions, out of greed and whatnot...


but all religions, including christianity if you read the bible enough - talk about all acceptance, love, humility, non judgment

its simply not possible that before christ was born - the people who strived to alleviate suffering in the world, were born, and died in sin... that is impossible, therefor Buddha was the previous incarnation of Jesus, and there has been many many inbetween, before and since

its our own true nature I beleive



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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Rastafari]
    #1981405 - 10/05/03 03:24 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

"Why must we believe in something unproven rather than simply acting compassionately towards our fellow man? Wouldn't it be better to act in a Christ-like manner than to simply believe in Jesus Christ?"

The problem is righteousness. God can not look at ANY unrighteousness since God is perfectly Holy. The law must be kept perfectly perfect. Anything less than perfect kindles God's wrath. Jesus Christ obeyed every demand of the law, and satisfied the wrath of the broken law, on His peoples behalf. Thereby establishing a righteousness for them and ensuring their justification and finally their glorification. To assert that a person can bring deeds acceptable to God, outside of Christ ALONE, reveals a false understanding who God is, and is idolatry. Idolators, those who have created a false image of God, are hated of God, since they dishonor every attribute of Himself, and worship the vanity of their own imaginations. This is why there is only one way, since all other ways are an abomination.


"The whole salvation-through-faith thing seems like a practical joke to me."

The natural man can not understand things of the Spirit and it is looked upon as foolishness. The Fall left every person in a state of spiritual deadness, unable to know the True God, blinded by his own blindness.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: fivepointer]
    #1981418 - 10/05/03 03:29 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Heh, fivepointer, nice campfire-type scary story! God's wrath.. heh. Really scared the hell out of me! :grin:

Then, of course, I realized that you actually believe in what you just said, and then I sort of shook my head in dismay... I feel truly sorry for you, man.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineFunguy
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1981448 - 10/05/03 03:40 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Question: Why would God offer only one route to salvation? Why must we believe in something unproven rather than simply acting compassionately towards our fellow man? Wouldn't it be better to act in a Christ-like manner than to simply believe in Jesus Christ? The whole salvation-through-faith thing seems like a practical joke to me.





Truthfully, I don't know. I am not God so I cannot speak of why he only offered one route to salvation. I don't know everything, so I cannot answer every single question you ask. But I believe in what the Bible says, and what I witness in every day life. I will always be here for all of you, so if you ever do begin to believe, I help you. No matter what you decide, I still love you an so does Christ.

PS- being a TRUE Christian makes you want to act in a Christ like manner because we have Christ in our heart. Why does salvation through faith seem like a practical joke? Does it seem just too easy for some people? There is evidence to back up the Bible, if you are willing to look. I have plenty of books that I would gladly send to you, if you will actually sit down and read them. Peace Silversoul7, and may God guide and act upon your heart with love and compassion.


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OTD UNDERDOGS

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
    #1981532 - 10/05/03 04:17 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Why does salvation through faith seem like a practical joke?



Because it doesn't allow for skeptical inquiry. We can't doubt the story of Jesus or we will be condemned to Hell. If God gave us the gift of reason, why won't he allow us to use it in this instance? It seems unfair to condemn us to Hell for demanding proof.

What if I told you that I am God, and if you don't believe me, you will burn in Hell? Would you believe me? What if I was right? How would you know? Would you be willing to take that chance?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineFunguy
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1981613 - 10/05/03 05:05 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Doubt- to be uncertain about.

Disbelief- the inability or refusal to believe or to accept something as true.

I wouldn't disbelieve you, but I would doubt and in doing so, research to find out whether or not your statements are true.  But like I said, I'm not going to pretend that I have all the answers. 
But of course, the Bible (in general) is very, very old.  If God was truly going to talk to me, I don't think he would do it over the internet. :grin:


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OTD UNDERDOGS

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
    #1981634 - 10/05/03 05:13 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Doubt- to be uncertain about.

Disbelief- the inability or refusal to believe or to accept something as true.




So is it ok to doubt Jesus' divinity, or that he saves? Is it ok that I'm uncertain about these things? Will I still be saved if I am still uncertain about these things when I die?

Quote:

If God was truly going to talk to me, I don't think he would do it over the internet.



Why? You don't think God keeps up with modern technology?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineFunguy
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1981700 - 10/05/03 05:43 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Well, just try to make up your mind before you die. But remember, we are not promised our next breath. Everybody may have a "last chance" kinda thing when they die, I don't know (I've never died). There are sometimes when I doubt my faith, but I always see something that restores it. But I'll always be praying for you.

Yes, God does keep up with modern technology, but I doubt if he uses it. But like I said, who knows?


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OTD UNDERDOGS

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1981728 - 10/05/03 05:54 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

The whole of your life is going to be a testimony as to whether you are transformed by GOD into a Christ-filled or Christ-like man. That transformation will only take place if you say 'Yea' to being transformed. Obviously your answer is 'Nay,' so your spiritual eye will not be able to perceive the Truth about The Way, as embodied in the Christ, because one's spiritual sight is of the "inner man" as St. Paul calls it, and this is where GOD and man interface.

Hell, though depicted in the language of myth, is alienantion from GOD, and that is a meaningless statement because you do not experience GOD in your day-to-day life. You live the life of the "natural man," which perishes, but not the life of 'the "inner man" which does not, but which experiences GOD here and now, during dying, and after the body-mind is dead. The post-mortem condition is a continuation of one's spiritual life in this life. Being alienated from GOD here and now will continue, according to Christian metaphysics, which IS Hell. It is not merely a matter of what you think and say in a moment - it is a matter of living your entire life based upon a radical error.

Now, if you are what the Gnostic Christians call a Sarkic - one who identifies only with the 'sarx,' flesh, i.e., the natural man, and if you have no interest in experiencing the higher parts of your nature - the Transcendental aspect through which Life animates us, then perhaps you should not bother to dialogue with others in these matters. On the other hand, some people are given to be missionaries for their faith, and will reach out to you. Still others have been raised to believe a very distorted message of Hell-fire and brimstone (for which the world can thank that author known as Matthew) - and believe that they can frighten one into Love of God [Truth, Reality]. This only works with very young gullible children and mental deficients, so this approach is itself childish and mentally deficient (not to mention morally wrong, out of Biblical context) and can be simply disregarded without getting insulted. You, however, who has no faith in faith, as a means of apprehending Ultimate Reality should understand that the rational mind and sense data cannot approach aspects of Existence that transcend reason (Transrational). You are trying to carry water in a fishing net.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1981802 - 10/05/03 06:42 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

You speak as tho I don't believe in God. If you read my posts on this forum, you will find that I do, in fact, believe in God, but not as some personal entity, but rather as being the essence of existence itself--the ultimate reality. And I do live my life based on this belief.

However, here is a list of Christian beliefs of which I am still skeptical:
--that the Bible is infallible(actually, I'm fairly certain it's not)
--that human beings were created out of nothing rather than evolving from other species
--that Noah took two of every species and got them to fuck on a boat
--that Jesus was born of a virgin
--that Jesus was the only son of God(since God is the ultimate reality, in a sense we are all God's children)
--that Jesus was the Messiah(the Messiah was supposed to bring peace on earth, but that clearly hasn't happened)
--that Jesus came back from the dead(read "The Passover Plot")
--that believing all of this is the only way to salvation
--that there is even a need for this so-called "salvation"


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1981828 - 10/05/03 06:55 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I see said the blind man. :smile:

It is alot like Fana-fi al-Meahboob where a person's identity becomes annihilated in God's Eternal Presence. One particular Arif (I don't remember his name) described it as everything being small, simple sources of light such as a candle, for example that becomes completely drowned out as the Sun slowly rises, engulfing all light into its own. Some mystic shaykhs have said one has to experience this in order to grow spiritually. Once a person loses his/herself into the reality of God and becomes of Allah, they act and use their own logic as Allah does. Hazrat Khwaja Gharib Nawaz of Ajmer said, "You must give up greed and avarice. Those who have done so have reached their goal. Tajrid involves remaining alone even in the midst of a crowd." I take this as a spiritual development in Islam (Tazkiya-e-Nafs) that is similiar the Christian imitation of Christ that is best described by St. Iraeneus Lyon as "God made Himself a man so that man could become Him" or something like that. But to be perfectly honest, while obtaining a Christ-like (or Allah-like) reasoning is definately fulfilling, it seems the majority of people are unable to realize the logic of God, and instead confine themselves to basic religious laws - I mean, perhaps most people need this kind of legalistic faith. This is how I've always formed my 'theology' of Islam, a religion whos spiritual focal point is a Book, instead of a living, breathing, human being. Jesus spoke in parables, as I understand speaking to the masses about a God-oriented way of living, while in private telling people about the metaphysical reality of God, and His reasoning. This parable doesn't seem to exist at all in Islam, except for a handful of verses in the Qur'an that have no interpretation except esoteric ones (verses that I believe are virtually misunderstood by the majority of Muslims). Since God is not a book, it seems spiritual Muslims have no choice but to dive right into the ocean of mystery directly. Perhaps Law and Spirit is just a balance of things. :cool:


--------------------


Edited by Zahid (10/05/03 06:57 PM)


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