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OfflineDOBOS
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What holy scripture is most accurate? though not in hebrew?
    #2439234 - 03/16/04 02:25 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I am not skilled in the language of ancient hebrew so it would be hard for me to read into the torah or old testament in hebrew. Im asking what bible i guess is least modified, translated and fauled with reiterations? i would like to know what bibles are out there if someone has the time. thank youz


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: What holy scripture is most accurate? though not in hebrew? [Re: DOBOS]
    #2439321 - 03/16/04 02:46 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

> I am not skilled in the language of ancient hebrew so it would be hard for me to read into the torah or old testament in hebrew.

Most translations of Torah fail to take into account the layers of information that are hidden behind the verbage. Both numerology and position play a large part in Torah, both of which are lost in translation.


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Offlineparticlezen
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Re: What holy scripture is most accurate? though not in hebrew? [Re: Seuss]
    #2439449 - 03/16/04 03:21 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

The fact that the old testament and the new testament are referring to two completely different Gods is the main error!

Old testament: an eye for an eye
vs
New Testament: turn the other cheek, etc

The old testament borrows heavily from Sumerian theology, while the new testament is like the revised edition. My problem with this is, how come God can change his mind half way through? I guess that is the prerrogative of the omnipotent!


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Anonymous

Post deleted by Anno [Re: particlezen]
    #2439481 - 03/16/04 03:27 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)



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Offlineparticlezen
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Re: What holy scripture is most accurate? though not in hebrew? [Re: ]
    #2439582 - 03/16/04 03:54 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

bloodflower6 said:
No it doesn't...

Show me some examples while I work on my rebuttal... please.  :smile:

bf6
:lipsrsealed:




Sumerian has stories similar to Genesis 1-11. Some the important texts are: Eridu Genesis which parallels Genesis 1-11, The Sumerian King List which is similar to Genesis 5, The Sumerian Flood Story, The Song of the Hoe which tells about the creation of the world and man, Enki and Ninmah which is the earliest text dealing with man's creation, Emerkar and the Lord of Aratta which deals with times before civilization began.

http://www.bible-history.com/resource/ah_bab.htm

Obviously Sumeria was polytheistic.


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"Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music."


Edited by particlezen (03/16/04 04:03 PM)


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Anonymous

Post deleted by Anno [Re: particlezen]
    #2439605 - 03/16/04 03:59 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)



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InvisibleKrishna
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Re: What holy scripture is most accurate? though not in hebrew? [Re: DOBOS]
    #2439633 - 03/16/04 04:07 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Well they are all written by different people with different interpretations of what the teachings of Jesus meant... for example the four gospels in the bible talk about jesus forming a church on earth... whereas the gospel of St. Thomas refers to god not being in buildings of wood and stone.... they are all very different, and since none of us were there, we can't say which one is "most accurate"


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Offlineparticlezen
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Re: What holy scripture is most accurate? though not in hebrew? [Re: ]
    #2439637 - 03/16/04 04:08 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

'the Father and the Son, and both of these are referred to at various times as "God" and "Yahweh". The following passage serves as a good example:

Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.2 (Psalms 45:6 7)

Here we have a scripture with two distinct Gods being spoken of in the same passage, and it is obvious from the context that these two Gods both constitute "God" to all Israel. Not only are there two Gods, but it is stated that one of them is subordinate to the other Higher God. In fact, the higher God is worshipped by the lesser God. This is a Messianic Psalm wherein Christ the Messiah is shown in a subservient role to God the Father, who in chapters 42 and 43 is referred to as "El" (Psalms 42:2, 8, 9; 43:4) and who in chapters 46 and 47 is designated as "Elyon" the "great King over all the earth" (Psalms 46:4; 47:2). The fact that the subordinate "God" is correctly identified as Christ is clearly stated in the New Testament where this same verse is quoted verbatim along with other proof texts, and interpreted as a reference to the Son of God (Hebrews 1:8-9).

For many it will be difficult to believe that the doctrine as here set forth can actually be found in the "Monotheistic Book" of the Old Testament, nevertheless, as we have and shall see, such is the case, not only in this passage, but in many others. The relationship between God the Father and God the Son is again referred to in another Psalm which was written by King David:

Yahweh said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool (Psalms 110:1)

In this passage, God the Father is designated as "Yahweh" and Christ the Messiah as "Lord" (translated from Hebrew "Adonai" which is to say "sovereign" or "Master") and again, just as in Psalms 45, Christ is shown in a subservient role to the Father, sitting at the favored position of His "right hand". That this is the correct interpretation is directly stated in the New Testament, where Jesus cites this same passage in order to confound his enemies:

While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, 'Yahweh [Psa 110:1; Luke 20:42] said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call[ed] him "Lord", how is he his son? And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions. (Matt. 22:41-46; Luke 20:41-43)

The question is this: How can David rightfully refer to the "Christ" as his "Lord", if in fact, "Christ" is actually David's son. In other words, if David is Christ's father, how can the Christ be David's "Lord", since according to the Patriarchal Order of things the father is always considered greater than his children.

Obviously these Pharisees did not fully comprehend the idea of the sonship of Christ. To be sure Jesus was born through the lineage of David on his mother's side, as well as that of his stepfather Joseph - but as far as actual lineage in the flesh is concerned, Jesus was the direct Son of God the Father. This is stated in Luke3 as also in the following passage from Psalms:

I will declare the decree: Yahweh hath said unto me, Thou art my son; this day have I begotten thee. (Psalms 2:7; see also Luke 1:30 35)

Here again, God the Father is designated as "Yahweh", while Christ the Messiah is set forth as the Son of Yahweh. In verse 4 of Psalms 110 it states:

Yahweh hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou [i.e. Christ the Messiah] art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. (Psalms 110:1)

In this passage, the name of God the Father is again given as "Yahweh" while Christ the Messiah is referred to as "a priest . . . after the order of Melchizedek". Again, the fact that the latter is a reference to Christ is stated in certain terms in the New Testament:

So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he [i.e. Yahweh] that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec (Hebrews 5:5-6)

The reference to Yahweh declaring Christ to be His Son comes from Psalms chapter 2. In keeping with this same pattern, generally speaking, the New Testament speaks of the Father as "Yahweh", God of the Old Testament, who spoke unto the fathers by the Prophets, but who in New Testament times, hath spoken to the people through His Son (Hebrews 1:1-2). The following are a few examples:

Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, and saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He ["Yahweh" (Psa 91:1-12)] shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. (Matt 4:5-6)

Jesus saith unto them, did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone [i.e. Christ the Messiah] which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is Yahweh's doing [Psa 118:22-23], and it is marvellous in our eyes? (Matt 21:42)

And there was delivered unto him [Jesus] the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, The Spirit of the Lord Yahweh is upon me; because Yahweh [Isa 61:1] hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the broken hearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of Yahweh [Isa 61:2]. And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears. (Luke 4:17-21)

Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God (John 8:54)

[the Father] God [El], who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds (Hebrews 1:1-2)

The God of Abraham, and Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. (Acts 3:13; see also 2:32-36; 3:20-24)

The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. (Acts 5:30)

The 22nd Psalm foretold many events which took place in the life of Christ, and in the process clearly establishes a distinction between Christ the Messiah and Yahweh:

My El, my El, why hast thou forsaken me? (Matt 27:46; Mark 15:34) why art thou so far from helping me . . . . I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people. All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, He trusted on Yahweh that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him. But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts. I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my El from my mother's belly. Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help. Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round. They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion. I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death. For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me. They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture. But be not thou far from me, O Yahweh: O my strength, haste thee to help me. Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog. (Psalm 22:1-20) (cont.)'


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Anonymous

Post deleted by Anno [Re: Krishna]
    #2439644 - 03/16/04 04:10 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)



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OfflineSeussA
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Re: What holy scripture is most accurate? though not in hebrew? [Re: ]
    #2439706 - 03/16/04 04:23 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

> Have any of you read the bible all the way through? Old and New testament.

Yes... including several different versions/translations. I have also tried to learn/read the biblical hebrew version of Torah with a lot of help from the Jewish guy that used to live next door. I have not had the chance to do this with the Koran yet, but I would like enjoy that very much. I have also read many Sutras, but I don't know if that falls into your question or not.


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OfflineMikeOLogical
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Re: What holy scripture is most accurate? though not in hebrew? [Re: DOBOS]
    #2440144 - 03/16/04 06:15 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I bought my dad a copy of the Shocken bible... its a translation of the torah into english... it was done by linguists who claimed no religious bias...


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OfflineDOBOS
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Re: What holy scripture is most accurate? though not in heb [Re: MikeOLogical]
    #2440446 - 03/16/04 08:04 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

this is great, this is a good thread for the purpose intended so far, thank you ever so muches . . . i have heard about the depth of the hebrew and the direct perception it gives to those familiar and those not even with it, i guess i should really learn hebrew if i wanted to actually hear everything. . . though im sure there are copys like those aforementioned with an accurate definition, especially if translated un biased. Anyway i am just interested in rightousness, Rasta, and maby what i should be doing on my day to day life, im not lost or anything, i just feel like i might be wasting or not employing my potential and qualities as a human being. If you people know anything you've learned you like to shoot the breeze with then hey why dont we take a look at being..


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The mark of an imature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: What holy scripture is most accurate? though not in hebrew? [Re: MikeOLogical]
    #2442072 - 03/17/04 06:32 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

> its a translation of the torah into english

One problem with this is the loss of numerology information. In hebrew, each letter also represents a number (or numbers). You can read a passage both as words or as numbers... and often the numbers lend a deeper meaning to the words.

Also, for those that believe, there is simply Torah, not a torah or the torah. To say one has translated the torah is impossible. Torah is, and everything else is not Torah. In other words, we might have an english representation of Torah, but it is not Torah, nor is it a translation of Torah.

Finally, Torah is comprised of the first five books of the OT. There are obviously many translations of these five books in various languages.


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OfflineMikeOLogical
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Re: What holy scripture is most accurate? though not in hebrew? [Re: Seuss]
    #2442856 - 03/17/04 12:28 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

actually, I was talking about the torah, which is a book I can hold in my hand and read and even translate if I wish, which has no mystical powers whatsoever... the thing I like about the Shocken bible (entitled simply "the first five books of Moses") is that it was compiled by people who had no vested interest in the final outcome... the torah was approached as a piece of literature with no judjement made as to whether this literature was a work of fiction or nonfiction...

the "Torah" you speak of is some intangible thing which one cannot put a finger on, thereby making it inaccessable to all but the most pious scholars... this paragraph:

"Also, for those that believe, there is simply Torah, not a torah or the torah. To say one has translated the torah is impossible. Torah is, and everything else is not Torah. In other words, we might have an english representation of Torah, but it is not Torah, nor is it a translation of Torah."

really has no meaning, except to show that you elevate Torah to a level beyond my understanding, but not beyond yours... it is simply a way of claiming superiority over me in some intangible way that I can neither appreciate nor understand...

I can do it too, for example, if I want to belittle your understanding of the Vulcan ritual of Pong Farr, I could just use your paragraph verbatim, and just substitute pong-farr for Torah... I can make it even more mystical with the creative use of Capital Letters, thusly:


"Also, for those that believe, there is simply Pong FaRr, not a pong farr or the pong farr. To say one has translated the pong farr is impossible. Pong FaRr is, and everything else is not Pong FaRr. In other words, we might have an english representation of Pong FaRr, but it is not Pong FaRr, nor is it a translation of Pong FaRr."

and then when you ask me "why do we capitalize the first r in FaRr and not the second? I can laugh at you and say, oh, little one, you have much to learn my child...

pretty nifty rhetorical device, but I kinda resent the unspoken implication.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: What holy scripture is most accurate? though not in hebrew? [Re: MikeOLogical]
    #2446837 - 03/18/04 01:09 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

> actually, I was talking about the torah, which is a book I can hold in my hand and read and even translate if I wish, which has no mystical powers whatsoever...

From a Jewish standpoint, what you are saying is nonsense.  I understand what you are saying, and this is something I used to argue with my Jewish friend about.  For a Jew, Torah is a collection of scrolls, which are scribed by folks that have had a lot of training using special inks and whatnot.  The scroll is never touched by human hands.  Every copy is identical in size, shape, spelling, layout, etc.  If a single mistake is made while scribing a new scroll, the entire thing is no longer Torah, but something else.  Torah is supposed to be identical to what was handed down to Moses.  That is why Torah and a translation of the torah are seen to be different in the eyes of the Jewish.

> really has no meaning, except to show that you elevate Torah to a level beyond my understanding, but not beyond yours...

Hardly.  I am simply trying to show how the Jewish view Torah as opposed to the rest of us... and I may have gotten it wrong, since I am not Jewish.

The use of capitals on Torah versus the torah was an attempt to show the difference between a Jewish viewpoint and what the rest of us see.  For a Jew, there cannot be a book that is Torah, but for you and I... we have no problem with a book which is a translation of the torah because we aren't Jewish.

> but I kinda resent the unspoken implication

There was no unspoken implication from me.  If you perceived such, then I apologize as that was not my intent.  Perhaps we have hit upon a cause of persecution of the Jews throughout history... :smile:


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Offlinesleepysmoker
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Re: What holy scripture is most accurate? though not in hebrew? [Re: DOBOS]
    #2447466 - 03/18/04 04:10 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I Am That

talks with sri nisargadatta maharaj

by far the greatest stuff ive ever read. i will post some excerpts from it when i get home, in a few hours.


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