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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
    #1965948 - 09/30/03 02:22 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

> Everybody will be judged based on what they KNOW.

Very good, because I know absolutely nothing. I have a lot of sneaking suspisions, but no facts at all. (no sarcasim here.... simple truth)


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Just another spore in the wind.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
    #1965993 - 09/30/03 02:35 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Funguy said:
When God first created Adam and Eve, they were supposed to live forever, both physically and spiritually.





Now, Adam and Eve, then... they were humans? Now... hhm.... they were the first humans, right? Hmm.... Were they basically cavemen? At what point during our evolution from monkeys did God then create two of us and mean for them to live forever, both physically and spiritually?

Quote:


When they ate of the Fruit of the Tree of the Knowlege of Good and Evil, they died spiritually. They also died physically, but not right away.




HHmm... blind ignorance... or awareness... Hhhm..... I don't consider living under the protection of someone in some ignorant paradise as the pinnacle of spirituality...

Quote:


Christ came that we could live forever spiritually, and just wait until the New Jerusalem comes! Our bodies are temporary, our souls are forever. The Lake of Fire was specifically created for Satan and his minions, not us. Satan knows his fate, and is trying to take as many people as he can. Everybody will be judged based on what they KNOW. I cannot say what God will do with someone who never heard of Christ, because I am not God.




Okay, yes, our bodies are temporary, and the awareness that makes us conscious is eternal. A Lake of Fire? Satan? Some being purposely trying to damn us all? Hhm..... I can't believe we will be judged by some being for things we did without knowing the purpose of our stay here or what it is exactly that we are suspossed to work towards.




Quote:


Just believe.





I don't just believe in something that I have no way of knowing anything. Blindly accepting something is the opposite of awareness. Awareness is the heart of spirituality. I pursue spirituality with an open mind and nothing to blind my observing perspective.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
    #1966048 - 09/30/03 02:57 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

That's a good foundation, funguy. But there's a latter-day chapter that must be included. In the early 1800s a young man named Joseph Smith was very confused about which church to join. This was a time of intense religious revivalism in upstate New York.

Smith came across a verse in James (1:5) which said, "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, who giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not." So Smith decided to take James' advice. One early morning, he went into a forest near his family farm and prayed to God. He was visited by God the Father and his son, Jesus Christ.

Smith was told that all the Churches were mixtures of some Gospel truths in some inaccuracies, i.e. that none of them contained the fullness of His Gospel, and that through Smith God would restore His Gospel, after nearly 2,000 years of apostacy.

This He did, and Smith, as the first modern prophet of God, established the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and translated an ancient record of members of the House of Israel who had come to the Americas 500 years b.c. That translation is the Book of Mormon, which like the Bible is a testament of Jesus Christ.

Since then, God has continued to guide his children through prophets and twelve apostles in His church. Today the prophet of God is Gordon B. Hinckley. Pretty good news for those who truly want to return to their Father in Heaven.

hongomon


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: hongomon]
    #1966101 - 09/30/03 03:11 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Here's what I am going to do, people:

I am going to go out into the woods, in seclusion. I am then going to write a bunch of shit that I made up. I will claim that God visited me and that what I have written is the testament of God, given to me.

I will then get some drunken outcasts to follow me, and we will get chased out by everyone else and go out to live in the desert, and then we will breed with our multiple wives and then spread the message.

The sad thing is, after time passes, everyone will take what I wrote as the actual word of God, and will unquestionably believe in it, and no one will ever know the difference! See how completely easy it is?!
Peace.



--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1966142 - 09/30/03 03:21 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

yeah, that's why the mormon religion has taken over christianity.. eh?

Only the true word could last 2000 years. The rest are just playa hatas.

Jesus is MY homeboy.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1966151 - 09/30/03 03:23 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

PsiloKitten said:
Only the true word could last 2000 years.




Since when does how long something lasts validate it as being true?
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1966175 - 09/30/03 03:29 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Hey, only the one true word could start all those crusades, witchhunts, the Inquisition, abortion clinic bombings, imperialism, and all that other fun stuff, right? BTW, Psilokitten, are you Catholic? Cuz otherwise I don't think you could really say your religion is 2000 years old. Actually, Catholics can't rightly claim this either. Christianity in its original form has long since died out.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1966207 - 09/30/03 03:40 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Hey, only the one true word could start all those crusades, witchhunts, the Inquisition, abortion clinic bombings, imperialism, and all that other fun stuff, right?




That's exactly it. After the true Christians were persecuted into extinction and the Roman empire took on the dogma, the world lapsed into an apostacy that lasted nearly 2,000 years. Then by the faith of Brother Joseph, God restored the fullness of His Gospel and His priesthood in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Like Funguy said, we all need to accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior. We also need to come unto baptism, even as Jesus did, and receive other ordinances by those who have the authority to carry them out--holders of God's priesthood. God's priesthood is found only in his ONE TRUE CHURCH, THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS.

you can contact them at www.lds.org and they will be glad to send representatives to you.

hongomon


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: hongomon]
    #1966211 - 09/30/03 03:42 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

If the one people of the "One True Church" elected Orin Hatch to the Senate, then frankly, I'm unimpressed.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: hongomon]
    #1966214 - 09/30/03 03:42 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Phh.. religious dogma.. how does it feel to have been brainwashed? No, I am like totally serious here.

I mean, I respect people's beliefs that they have and everything, but that is like pure brainwashing.

The only thing that I need to do is to keep breathing. Everything else is irrelevant.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1966218 - 09/30/03 03:44 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Exactly! Whether some guy named Jesus died for our sins 2000 years ago is irrelevant. All that is real is this moment, here and now.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1966223 - 09/30/03 03:45 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Exactly!  Whether some guy named Jesus died for our sins 2000 years ago is irrelevant.  All that is real is this moment, here and now. 




Indeed. :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Registered: 02/13/99
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: ]
    #1966240 - 09/30/03 03:48 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Looner:
Go read Behe, Parker, Denton, Baumgarden, Gish.... Then you can come back and debate the points. These points are easily found. Im not engaging in some 10 page long fact finding mission that you put no effort into and discredit, with a closed mind and heart.

That should keep you busy for awhile.

Silversoul,
Catholic school will do it. After I got out of there and they threw our family out of their little fake party I hated God for 12 years. I mean, hated.. said things like you.. I didnt want any part of some asshole God who judged me like that. I wasnt buying into original sin or any of that "crap". I argued with my fiancee.. who is a pastor's son constantly and told him he was a sheep.. he lived in a bubble.. he needed to wake up. I was generally mean and no matter what he told me, my heart and mind was closed from the experiences I had with catholicism. It let me sink into absolution over the bad things I had done.. and I'd done some pretty shitty things, to believe there was no christian God was easier. My god was unconditionally loving.. I couldnt fall short of it's grace.. so through buddhism and wicca and bahai.. I tried to find the one that fit.. the one that I could feel in my life. To believe that this was the only life was easier, or hell.. that we got reincarnated if we fucked up and got many chances, that was a nice thought too. Nothing mattered. I didnt have to feel guilt or remorse, hell, I could do whatever I wanted.. who was someone to label me bad or evil? Then, about a year ago I started to read the Bible for myself. And I saw a message of love and redemption.. a message of hope.. not that fear and other crap that I had been taught. I am continually blessed because the Lord works in my life everyday, prayer after prayer has been answered now that I came to know him.
In answer to your original question... out of the mouth of God's word, not mine.. you should read Ephesians in its entirety.

In closing Timothy 6:20, from your response, you didnt want any answers to your questions.. you simply wanted to fight about your opinion.


--------------------


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1966439 - 09/30/03 04:53 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
If the one people of the "One True Church" elected Orin Hatch to the Senate, then frankly, I'm unimpressed. 




Orin Hatch is God's chosen senator.

haha, okay, sorry guys, I feel bad for baiting you.  I repent.  I don't believe all of that.  I traded in Joseph Smith for Joseph Campbell.  But it is an accurate overview of the Mormon church--it's just what a sincere Mormon would say--maybe that's what makes it funny to me.  I failed to mention that God, Elohim, is said to live on a planet called Kolob.

But I'm revealing too much.  Milk before meat, they say. :smirk:  The point I was trying to make is that something so clearly absurd to an outsider, like you guys, is "the truth" to some, but not all, insiders, like some of my family and friends.  Fireworks God, "brainwashing" is a broad term, but I suppose the idea of having certain assumptions presented as if true, and repeated over and over again on a daily basis, could be considered "brainwashing."  Of course, that's pretty much what happens in our culture.

I was hoping to use this as an example of an exclusive, believe-this-or-be-damned doctrine that even the other Christians here might agree is questionable (or even absurd).  I'd like to know what makes Christianity, in any of its exclusive, believe-this-or-be-damned forms, any different.  Or more specifically, how we are to imagine a God who is expecting that of us.  Actually I wouldn't--I've already heard the answers and they can't escape circularity. 

MarkostheGnostic's concept of "the Way" -- greater than religion and containing  them, not the other way around, makes more sense in my mind.  But who knows?  Maybe God really is an irrational and jealous creature and a lot of us are fucked... :eek:

peace, the moment, breathe (and get some food now and then)
hongomon 


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: hongomon]
    #1966455 - 09/30/03 04:59 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Oh, I forgot to mention that everything I say about things of a theistic or deistic nature are, of course, my own opinions, and if I make any statements that appear as assertions of universal truths, point them out and give me shit for them. I'm trying to clear those out of my thought processes...it's hard.


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: hongomon]
    #1966544 - 09/30/03 05:23 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

the first mormon temple is right near here, over in kirtland, OH...
joseph smith was lynched in illinois by an angry mob who didn't like his flavor of theology... (some of which was prolly derived from an early 18th century novel about lost tribes in north america, and some of which was prolly from a profound misreading of egyptian heiroglyphs (the rosetta stone hadn't yet been decoded, heh...)


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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OfflineFunguy
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1966610 - 09/30/03 05:47 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Hey, only the one true word could start all those crusades, witchhunts, the Inquisition, abortion clinic bombings, imperialism, and all that other fun stuff, right? BTW, Psilokitten, are you Catholic? Cuz otherwise I don't think you could really say your religion is 2000 years old. Actually, Catholics can't rightly claim this either. Christianity in its original form has long since died out.




Oh, let us not forget the millions of innocent people that have been murdered by atheists! Pol Pot killed over 1.7 million people in the 1970's. Joseph Stalin killed over 20 million Soviet citizens between 1929 and 1939. Mao Tse-tung killed almost over 62 MILLION people in the 1930's and 40's. Should we blame atheism for the actions of some of its followers? Should we blame Christianity for the actions of some of its followers?


--------------------

OTD UNDERDOGS

Is attention your retarded heroin?


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1966637 - 09/30/03 05:57 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Hey, only the one true word could start all those crusades, witchhunts, the Inquisition, abortion clinic bombings, imperialism, and all that other fun stuff, right?

People started those things... Not God. Ive said it over and over that people are flawed and falible. God never said to kill in his name, so you cant really blame the Bible or christians for that. You can blame the people who did it all you want. God gave ten simple commandments and one of them was not to go out and murder people.. period.

BTW, Psilokitten, are you Catholic?
Nope, not anymore.

Cuz otherwise I don't think you could really say your religion is 2000 years old.
Christ died for our sins a little less then 2000 years ago, Many books of the Bible were also recorded within 50 years of that time. How is my religion not *almost* 2000 years old when my religion stems on the coming of Jesus?

Christianity in its original form has long since died out.
How's that? *looks in the mirror and finds herself to be quite alive-- checks to make sure she added nor subtracted nothing to/from the bible...nope, sure didnt*





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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
    #1966666 - 09/30/03 06:10 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Funguy said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Hey, only the one true word could start all those crusades, witchhunts, the Inquisition, abortion clinic bombings, imperialism, and all that other fun stuff, right? BTW, Psilokitten, are you Catholic? Cuz otherwise I don't think you could really say your religion is 2000 years old. Actually, Catholics can't rightly claim this either. Christianity in its original form has long since died out.




Oh, let us not forget the millions of innocent people that have been murdered by atheists! Pol Pot killed over 1.7 million people in the 1970's. Joseph Stalin killed over 20 million Soviet citizens between 1929 and 1939. Mao Tse-tung killed almost over 62 MILLION people in the 1930's and 40's. Should we blame atheism for the actions of some of its followers? Should we blame Christianity for the actions of some of its followers?



Apples and oranges, my friend. No atheists are claiming to preach the one true word of God(by definition, they can't). They only preach skepticism. I defy you to find one evil deed that was done in the name of atheism. I rest my case.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1966693 - 09/30/03 06:21 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

PsiloKitten said:
Hey, only the one true word could start all those crusades, witchhunts, the Inquisition, abortion clinic bombings, imperialism, and all that other fun stuff, right?

People started those things... Not God. Ive said it over and over that people are flawed and falible. God never said to kill in his name, so you cant really blame the Bible or christians for that. You can blame the people who did it all you want. God gave ten simple commandments and one of them was not to go out and murder people.. period.



My point was about how you were saying something to the effect that Christianity has survived for 2000 years because it is the one true word of God. I was pointing out that those 2000 years are marked by horrible acts of persecution being carried out in the name of the so-called true word of God.

Quote:

BTW, Psilokitten, are you Catholic?
Nope, not anymore.

Cuz otherwise I don't think you could really say your religion is 2000 years old.
Christ died for our sins a little less then 2000 years ago, Many books of the Bible were also recorded within 50 years of that time. How is my religion not *almost* 2000 years old when my religion stems on the coming of Jesus?



Because your religion is based on writings that didn't exist in the early Christian church, written by men who had never met Jesus, which didn't become an official part of Christianity until the Nicene Council, which was, I believe, AT LEAST 200 years after Christ had died.

Quote:

Christianity in its original form has long since died out.
How's that? *looks in the mirror and finds herself to be quite alive-- checks to make sure she added nor subtracted nothing to/from the bible...nope, sure didnt*



Have you read the Gospel of Thomas, or Mary Magdelene, or any other of the apocryphal writings? You assume that early Christianity went by the same four Gospels which you've read, when in reality it was FAR more diverse than that.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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