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OfflineBuddrow
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Registered: 04/10/03
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Re: is humanity born into sin? [Re: Seuss]
    #1928445 - 09/18/03 10:50 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

How exactly is free will a myth? Do you not have the free will to post? Walk? Breath?




Would you argue that a cat has free will? Or an insect? We are slaves to our chemical/electrical beings. The variables are near infinite and as such our decisions/choices are often unpredictable, but free-will does not exist. There are choices we are incapable of making.


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Offlinesirreal
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Re: is humanity born into sin? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1928464 - 09/18/03 10:57 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

PsiloKitten said:
the current Laodicean church has nothing to do with true christianity.




I agree with this.

But what do you feel best represents true christianity?

The bible? Or is it something else in your opinion?


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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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Offlinesirreal
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Re: is humanity born into sin? [Re: purenergy]
    #1928473 - 09/18/03 11:02 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

purenergy said:
im pretty well versed with the bible....and i want to hear the peoples opinions.

Quote:

psilokitten said:the current Laodicean church has nothing to do with true christianity.

Quote:

pure energy said:im not sure i know what your writing about...could u please get into more detail? id appreciate.




Not to be an asshole, but if you were "well versed" in the bible you would know what she is reffering to.


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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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Offlinepurenergy
see you spacecowboy....

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 54
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Re: is humanity born into sin? [Re: sirreal]
    #1928578 - 09/18/03 11:47 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

humor me oh marvelous one :tongue:


--------------------
one has lived from an endless past and will live into an endless future. at this very moment one partakes of Eternal Life-blissful, luminous, pure.


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Offlinesirreal
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Re: is humanity born into sin? [Re: purenergy]
    #1928594 - 09/18/03 11:55 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

purenergy said:
humor me oh marvelous one :tongue: 





I'll give you a hint: Book of revelation. :wink: 


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: is humanity born into sin? [Re: Buddrow]
    #1928621 - 09/18/03 12:09 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Buddrow said:
Would you argue that a cat has free will? Or an insect? We are slaves to our chemical/electrical beings. The variables are near infinite and as such our decisions/choices are often unpredictable, but free-will does not exist. There are choices we are incapable of making. 




There is a difference between free will and limited options.

My choices and decisions are not often unpredictable. I am the one making the choices and decisions. I exercise my free will. Just because someone else cannot predict my choices and decisions does not mean that I do not have free will.

Hmm... I am looking at that window to my right, a couple of feet from here. I made the active choice to look over there. At any given time, if I so wish, I can go and jump out of that window. I am completely free to do so.

If you are in jail, you still have free will, it is just that your options are somewhat limited. Free will isn't something that magically gives you the ability to do whatever you fucking want. Free will gives you the power to make your own choices and decisions with what you are given, your surroundings.

I do not have the power to make marijuana magically and instantly appear in my hand. If i had some sort of teleportation or materialization skill, I could exercise my free will to make that happen. I cannot use my free will to take my third hand and slap myself in the face, but I can use my left hand to do the same if I so desire.

So, let us not confuse our guaranteed free will with a lack of options, please. :grin:
Peace.





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OfflineFunguy
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Re: is humanity born into sin? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1928684 - 09/18/03 12:44 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

All humans are born into sin due to the sin of Adam. But that does not mean humans are inherently "evil". If we were as evil as many "Christians" state, why would God be willing to send his son to die for us? The answer is because humans were his special creation, his children and friends. To God, sin is sin. Lying is just as bad as murder (If you break one law, you break them all). Humans are imperfect, God is perfect. We cannot understand the thoughts of God, because we are not him. But he gave us the Bible (which may be mistranslated, tampered with, etc.) to learn more about him and his ways. His guidance, his wrath, but most importantly, his saving grace that is available to ALL.
Humans are sinful in nature, though we are not totally evil. A mass murderer can still go to heaven if he *truly* repents of what he did and asks Jesus into his heart. Christians still sin, which is obviously apparent (though I wonder how many of these fundamentalists are truly walking in the Life). In the end, we have one of two choices, accept or decline.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: is humanity born into sin? [Re: Funguy]
    #1928698 - 09/18/03 12:53 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Funguy said:
We cannot understand the thoughts of God, because we are not him.





Or rather, we are his thoughts, and when the thought passes in his head, we will be gone...

Quote:


  we have one of two choices, accept or decline. 




What about vacillate? Isn't that a choice? :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflinePed
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Re: is humanity born into sin? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1928844 - 09/18/03 02:01 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

All of our actions are governed by a long sereies of causes and conditions prior to our actions. Of these causes and conditions only a small percentage are self-created. Even those self-created causes and conditions are also influenced by enormous degrees of external causes and conditions. As such, free will is only loosely within our grasp, in my opinion.

Rather than the belief that humanity is born into sin, I think I'd rather say that we are born into shame. At birth, all of us were ushered into guilt in our nakedness, the necessity to hide ourselves made apparent to us by our parents, our culture. From shame of our bodies comes shame of ourselves; some of our normal thoughts and actions feel filthy when we present ourselves to others. This gives way to the notion of private individuality, and we become isolated. All of it illusion.

Partnership in human affairs must be restored.


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess

Registered: 02/13/99
Posts: 1,617
Re: is humanity born into sin? [Re: sirreal]
    #1929000 - 09/18/03 02:58 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

You said: "I agree with this.

But what do you feel best represents true christianity?

The bible? Or is it something else in your opinion? "

Before I read the Bible for myself I was like very many others on this board, spewing vitrol against Christianity as a control for the masses.  Then, one day, I sat down and began to read it and recognize that what people had tried to tell me about it were in large part error, it was their personal opinions.  They were not the word that existed on the pages.  I believe the bible is a tool that can help one come to know Christ, it is a representation of the Word of God.  As for what represents true Christianity, being a believer in the death of Christ to atone for our sins, Agape Love, is in my opinion what represents true Christianity.  Both accepting it and participating in it :smile:
 


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: is humanity born into sin? [Re: sirreal]
    #1929151 - 09/18/03 03:39 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Not to be an asshole, but if you were "well versed" in the bible you would know what she is reffering to.

Very true. Sometimes I get so frustrated that people claim to be versed or understand or have read.. but they dont get some of the basics and I question wether they gave it a real shot.

pureenergy, my point in all this is that you are making a mistake if you think someone can tell you what anything means in a way you can relate to your own personal life and ingrained beliefs.  Sometimes we get lucky and others have had similar experiences, so we can glean off a piece of their completed puzzle... but for the most part, if you truly take the time to read and decipher for yourself you can come to an awareness that superceeds the thoughts of others. Something that truly makes sense.  I know you said you studied the Bible and I am by no means a scholar, but if you truly read the Bible with an open heart you would know your answers to all of the questions you have asked in this thread... 

In the beginning you say:

most christians believe that humanity is born sinful...but i just dont buy this. i am no more sinful than any other kind of life in this universe. why do most christians buy into this belief of guilt?

Why dont you buy it?  Why are you no more sinful then any other life in this universe?  What exactly is sin?  Is it the dogmatic evil that has been presented in this thread?  Is it the transgression of the Laws of Moses?  Is it always as insidious as people lump it into?  Does God differentiate levels of sin?

Before Adam ate the apple and gained sin, there was no death.  God had made his creation to live with him in paradise and worship him for a neverending amount of time.  But with the apple Adam also took upon himself and his future generations, death.  Both physical and spiritual.  He had excercised his freewill and with that he gained the option of dying.  We arent God's cast outs, we are his best creation.  God wants to spend eternity with us, he didnt just create us for kicks.  Hence why Jesus was sent to die so that we could again transcend death.  In the Acts of Pilates (not part of the canonized Bible, however it can lend some additional theory into this)it actually speaks of Jesus going down to hell to bring Adam out.  This starts out the questioning of what exactly sin is.  I think Linguistics is the religion of science.

John Edwards wrote a Doctrine on Original Sin in 1758

Original Sin

I'd suggest that you give it a read.  It's pretty wordy, but for me it makes alot of sense. Just truly read it, dont skim it :smile:  I dont agree with every word, but I always find it useful to read opinions that are linked to scripture instead of someones blind babbling.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: is humanity born into sin? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1929312 - 09/18/03 04:15 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Does anybody else recognize that the story of Adam and Eve seems
to be an allegory more than a seemingly factual occurrence? It
really appears to be a morality fable.

It is saying that when we exercise our free will and give in to
desire, we reject what God has laid out for us and end up
sinning.

Also, it could be argued that it is saying that the desire for things
in the physical world distracts one from God.


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: is humanity born into sin? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1929462 - 09/18/03 05:01 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I guess if you arent a Christian, you could see it that way.


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OfflineFunguy
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Re: is humanity born into sin? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1929485 - 09/18/03 05:11 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

PsiloKitten said:
You said: "I agree with this.

But what do you feel best represents true christianity?

The bible? Or is it something else in your opinion? "

Before I read the Bible for myself I was like very many others on this board, spewing vitrol against Christianity as a control for the masses.  Then, one day, I sat down and began to read it and recognize that what people had tried to tell me about it were in large part error, it was their personal opinions.  They were not the word that existed on the pages.  I believe the bible is a tool that can help one come to know Christ, it is a representation of the Word of God.  As for what represents true Christianity, being a believer in the death of Christ to atone for our sins, Agape Love, is in my opinion what represents true Christianity.  Both accepting it and participating in it :smile:
 




AMEN!!!!!!!
It is often Christians who are responsible for pushing others away from Christ.  And a few people have become Christians trying to disprove Christ.  Don't expect that as soon as you become a Christian all of your problems will disappear.  In fact, it is sometimes harder to be a Christian than a non.  But it is our faith in Christ and the Father that we are able to strive and break free from our worldly prison.


--------------------

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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: is humanity born into sin? [Re: Funguy]
    #1929552 - 09/18/03 05:26 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

We're all born with a desire to belong. Sin, is a product of this desire. Humans create a society, which has to be able to survive. Society then labels undesirable actions and counterproductive actions as 'sin' to inspire people to do the right thing and help procreate society and mankind in general.
As such, there is no rational argument as to why theft for instance, would be evil. You would only call it evil if you truly believed a person could posess an item, and if you believe that if a person has said item, (s)he must have worked to be able to acquire it. This, however, is no more than social dogma.
I guess the message I'm trying to convey is that sin (and evil) exists only in our human minds, and is really a metaphor for undesirable actions (because they disrupt a harmonious society), taken too seriously over the ages. Sin is an invention of practical men seeking to preserve civil order. Nothing is inherently evil or good, everything just is.


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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Offlinepurenergy
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Registered: 09/11/03
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Re: is humanity born into sin? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1929743 - 09/18/03 06:20 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Very true. Sometimes I get so frustrated that people claim to be versed or understand or have read.. but they dont get some of the basics and I question wether they gave it a real shot.

a judgemental christian?....who'd a thought?

pureenergy, my point in all this is that you are making a mistake if you think someone can tell you what anything means in a way you can relate to your own personal life and ingrained beliefs.

dont u follow the bible & what jesus said?...n this being a discussion forum n all, i thought other peoples ideas would be kinda cool to hear...

I know you said you studied the Bible and I am by no means a scholar, but if you truly read the Bi ble with an open heart you would know your answers to all of the questions you have asked in this thread...

i dont think these questions r that simple to answer...

Why dont you buy it? Why are you no more sinful then any other life in this universe?

cause there is no such thing as sin, really. it all depends on how ur looking at it. just b/c something is 'taboo' doesnt make it a 'sin'. we r evolution at its finest baby, just animals...and one day we will be extinct, along with culture, ur religion n every other religion.

Is it the dogmatic evil that has been presented in this thread?

the only dogmatic evil in this thread is christianity, my friend

Before Adam ate the apple and gained sin, there was no death. God had made his creation to live with him in paradise and worship him for a neverending amount of time. But with the apple Adam also took upon himself and his future generations, death. Both physical and spiritual. He had excercised his freewill and with that he gained the option of dying. We arent God's cast outs, we are his best creation. God wants to spend eternity with us, he didnt just create us for kicks. Hence why Jesus was sent to die so that we could again transcend death. In the Acts of Pilates (not part of the canonized Bible, however it can lend some additional theory into this)it actually speaks of Jesus going down to hell to bring Adam out. This starts out the questioning of what exactly sin is. I think Linguistics is the religion of science.

well, shit...is that what really happened?...n all this time millions of people have been blindly following other religions that were a lie...christiaity is the ONLY answer...silly me...excuse me while i run n get baptized so i dont go to hell...

but I always find it useful to read opinions that are linked to scripture instead of someones blind babbling.

same difference...by the way, ur contradicting urself


--------------------
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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Registered: 02/13/99
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Re: is humanity born into sin? [Re: purenergy]
    #1929946 - 09/18/03 07:15 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

"a judgemental christian?....who'd a thought?"

How is that statement judgemental? I said I get frustrated that people take things at second or third hand. I said I questioned. I did not judge.

"dont u follow the bible & what jesus said?...n this being a discussion forum n all, i thought other peoples ideas would be kinda cool to hear..."

Heh, you didnt seem to have any belief yourself. You said you couldnt understand.. you didnt say hey, this is my belief, this is why and what I think. What do you think about it? Your post was seeking. If Im incorrect, I apologize. It is the downfall of text on a screen and personal interpretation.

"i dont think these questions r that simple to answer..."
So if there are all these questions that we are unable to answer, then exactly who is able to answer them? If they are so difficult that the Bible, which speaks very plainly on them is not a form of an answer, then what? I mean, supposedly the Bible and the Christians spawned original sin. Do you have some writing on it Im unaware of? So, exactly why would what created the concept be unable to answer your question?

cause there is no such thing as sin, really. it all depends on how ur looking at it. just b/c something is 'taboo' doesnt make it a 'sin'. we r evolution at its finest baby, just animals...and one day we will be extinct, along with culture, ur religion n every other religion.

You need to look at what sin is. It isnt just what is taboo and often it isnt isnt even what most think is taboo. Heh, we are evolution, I have doubts about it's finest. I mean, look at the world around you. If you choose to believe that one day you will go to nothingness along with the rest of everything then, have at it. But I see no harm in believing the presence I feel every day in my life. If Im wrong, I will have lost nothing. If you are, just what exactly will you have lost?

Is it the dogmatic evil that has been presented in this thread?
My friend, evil has many forms and just as you claim that christianity is evil, I feel that denying it isnt something Id like to aspire to. You said earlier that it all depended on how you see it, well, you are correct. Some of us see it in the light and some in the darkness.

well, shit...is that what really happened?...n all this time millions of people have been blindly following other religions that were a lie...christiaity is the ONLY answer...silly me...excuse me while i run n get baptized so i dont go to hell...

I definately struggle with the thought of a good person following a different faith, like the dali lama.. for instance. Does the Dali Lama, a very good man, go to hell because he didnt believe in Christ? I dont buy that (well, the dali lama does indeed believe in Christ and has often spoke of his inspiration upon reading Christ's sermon on the mount.-- but we will use him as a kind of metaphorical example). And who is to say at what point that we are given the oppurtunity to accept Christ? Is there salvation after death? I dont know the answers to these questions and I dont condemn muslims, buddhists, wiccans, etc. Ive studied those beliefs too and at times in my life Ive even participated loosely in their religions. I give you my opinion, that is what you asked for.. and the reason I originally told you to read for yourself and develop your own opinion was because it's very predictable that you would say something like you did. So really, what is the point?

same difference...by the way, ur contradicting urself

I guess if you consider the Bible blind babbling then it would be the same difference to you. How exactly am I contridicting myself? Because you think that the Bible isnt worthy? Then Id be contradicting you, sir, not myself. By reading other people's words that actually have scripture references so that one can read the scripture, the basis for their opinion, for themselves, one can definately get a more balanced view then just reading someones blind unsupported words. That's a pretty basic premise, religion aside. ie footnotes.



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Offlinepurenergy
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Re: is humanity born into sin? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1930342 - 09/18/03 09:50 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

you know what...i shouldnt have gotten so defensive. my bad. i was asking for people opinions, n urs is just as valued as anyone elses. i have no beef with christianity...although im not a christian. i started this post to get peoples views on this, i wasnt really seeking or forming my beliefs from what others say...i personally believe that as humans with free-will have the potential to produce evil...but that is not necessarily sin, or that we're born into it...my personal beliefs would be considered buddhism n panthism, not nihlism, so we dont go into nothingness, on the contrary i believe we merge back to one original consciousness, then we r reborn to experience life in some other way...people r gonna believe what they feel closest with...n i think in the end it doesnt matter what u believe. by the way...i came to my belief before i knew anything bout eastern philosophies...


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: is humanity born into sin? [Re: purenergy]
    #1930416 - 09/18/03 10:21 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

you know what...i shouldnt have gotten so defensive. my bad.

Mine too. Often times Im sure that my words come off as high and mighty when they really arent intended to be.

i was asking for people opinions, n urs is just as valued as anyone elses. i have no beef with christianity...although im not a christian. i started this post to get peoples views on this, i wasnt really seeking or forming my beliefs from what others say...

That's cool. I apologize for my misinterpretation. At the core, we all believe our "religions" for a reason and I think we want to share the knowledge that we feel we have gained. Sometimes we come off as pushy or, in my case, we see seekers in simple questioning. It's a flaw that makes people turn off to faiths.

i personally believe that as humans with free-will have the potential to produce evil...but that is not necessarily sin, or that we're born into it...
I guess one of the points that I was trying to make is that sin is purely subjective.. even in Christianity -- Although the Bible says, tho shalt not murder.. it also says that there is a season for everything. There is alot of contradictory messages in it.
My personal idea of sin isnt some stereotypical a or b type of thing. I believe that sin is going against what to you, is right. What is right is very subjective from one person or culture to the next. I also think that although Adam and Eve, IMHO, was a reality.. the lesson that is learned from them and the reason they are so important is indeed a metaphor, fable, allegory.. whatever you'd like to call it. The sin that is spoke of in the context of original sin isnt nessecarily the same sin as the ones that we actively commit. Read Edwards, maybe that will make sense.

my personal beliefs would be considered buddhism n panthism, not nihlism, so we dont go into nothingness, on the contrary i believe we merge back to one original consciousness, then we r reborn to experience life in some other way...
Again, I struggle with this because I feel very close to the buddhist belief system in so many ways. Sometimes I cant fathom, as a Christian, how this All loving God can only give us one chance to get it right. I incline sometimes towards the belief woven in wicca and buddism of a rebirth of the soul in this plane so that it can learn all that it needs to know to get into heaven. "If at first you dont succeed, try try again" religion. I know this isnt in the Bible. Then of course, I also struggle with the aspect of Christianity that Markos believes, that some things were left out of the bible to subvert the masses (atleast that's what I think he believes). I play with different theories of all religions being some noncanonized version of the same thing. Let's just say, I dont rule anything out in its entirety.

people r gonna believe what they feel closest with...n i think in the end it doesnt matter what u believe.
I tend to agree in that... in the end what you believe is smaller in comparison to how you lived your life.



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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: is humanity born into sin? [Re: Buddrow]
    #1930584 - 09/18/03 11:12 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

You have the free will, to not believe in free will, and/or give yours away. You are not a slave unless you allow it. Your thoughts and actions are your own - free will.



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