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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
    #1963115 - 09/29/03 05:09 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

sorry, I was just pointing out loopholes that SOME christians use to justify acting unChristian

I have no problem with Christ, consider myself a follower of his teachings.

Its the other followers I'm worried about. I might not be able to "see into their hearts" to judge them, but I sure as hell can see the consequences of their actions on MY environment...


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'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


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OfflineFunguy
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1963139 - 09/29/03 05:15 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Well, truly they may not be Christians at all, though it is not my job to judge. Also, the term "Christian" is abused nowadays, meaning anything from someone who goes to church occasionally but doesn't believe much, to an actual Christian. If you're 99% sure you are a Christian, chances are that you are 100% lost.
I don't want to sound stubborn, but following Christ's teachings are not enough, you must follow Christ himself. He said, "I am THE Way, THE Truth, and THE Life, NO man comes to the Father except THROUGH me."
I still recommend skimming the site I have in my sig. Well, I have to go for now, my class is about to start. See you all later and God bless.


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OTD UNDERDOGS

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
    #1963184 - 09/29/03 05:30 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I don't want to sound stubborn, but following Christ's teachings are not enough, you must follow Christ himself. He said, "I am THE Way, THE Truth, and THE Life, NO man comes to the Father except THROUGH me."




sounds like bigotry to me.

seems like this key tenet of christianty is in direct contradiction to the teachings of christ.

makes me wonder if Christ really said this, or if it was put in his mouth by the scholars who compiled/edited the NT. (these same scolars were under the employment of the same government that murdered christ 200 years earlier)


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'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1963241 - 09/29/03 05:44 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Your example of Adam and Eve is a perfect example of an unproven assertion.  In fact, science has established evolution as FACT.  So it is not only UNproven, but DISproven(unless you have some theological theory that accepts both creation AND evolution).  I accept that we are all flawed, but why must I also accept other unproven assertions(i.e. Mary being a virgin, Jesus being the Son of God, etc.)?  Can't I simply work to better myself through self-discipline?  Why must I believe what the Bible(which provides no proof that it is the Word of God) tells me, rather than looking at what is apparent(that I am flawed) and changing it myself?

Quote:

To think otherwise is to aspire to be God.



Let me let you in on a little secret...We ARE God. :wink:


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleautomanM
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
    #1963271 - 09/29/03 05:52 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Funguy said:
Yes, I know what many of you think about the Bible, and it may have its inconsistencies, but I still believe that it is the infallible word of God.





how can the "infallible word of God" have "inconstistencies"?


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No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. ~ Niels Bohr


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OfflineDigs
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1963316 - 09/29/03 06:08 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
Quote:

I don't want to sound stubborn, but following Christ's teachings are not enough, you must follow Christ himself. He said, "I am THE Way, THE Truth, and THE Life, NO man comes to the Father except THROUGH me."




sounds like bigotry to me.

seems like this key tenet of christianty is in direct contradiction to the teachings of christ.

makes me wonder if Christ really said this, or if it was put in his mouth by the scholars who compiled/edited the NT.  (these same scolars were under the employment of the same government that murdered christ 200 years earlier) 




I can definatley see christ saying that, but I don't think he meant that no one comes to god except through the physical being Jesus Christ.
He meant no one sees god without feeling and relishing in the embodyment that Chrst teaches.  It sucks that so much of Chrst's word was written in parable etc, because it doesnt get into specifics, heh :smile: 


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Digs]
    #1963408 - 09/29/03 06:41 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

You must also remember that most (if not all, where is Marcos?) of the new testiment was written around 100 years after Jesus died. This would be like us today trying to write the teachings of somebody back in the late 1800's for the future to use. We are going to get some of it correct, but we are going to hose a lot of things.

I have actually sat and read the entire bible, cover to cover (not all at once). There is a lot of wisdom in the book, but there is a lot of bullshit as well (sorry, no offense intended). As far as the new testiment is concerned, I thought is was mostly BS until I read the Gospel of Thomas. After that, I reread the NT and could see that there are indeed many nuggets of wisdom, but in many cases they have been twisted to meet the needs of the time rather than allowed to express their true intent, at least as I interpret them. (Lots of ego here, on my part, be careful.)

Try reading between the lines and remember that a lot of what is concidered the "words of Jesus" may not be.


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Just another spore in the wind.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1963419 - 09/29/03 06:47 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Christ died because he would not cheapen himself for the benefit of others. He died because of sin, not for it. He allowed them to sacrafice him, to make a point, and because he was tired of living in such an ignorant world. He was just a messenger.. the foghorn 2,000 years before the awakening.


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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Shroomism]
    #1963520 - 09/29/03 07:22 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Christ was a friend who came to rescue the lost ones. He was the only one strong enough to succeed.


His mission is still under way.


He was multi-tasking.. To create the "footprints" you see and hear of now, and to propel Himself where he needed to go to find His lost friends.


Everything He did, was done with the end goal in mind..


That goal, has not yet been reached.


Judging by what is going on, nowadays, it becomes quite clear, that time is almost up.


When the time does come, a free willed decision will be offered. The final outcome will be directly related to the details of that decision.




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Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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OfflineFunguy
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Shroomism]
    #1963545 - 09/29/03 07:34 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

How can one follow Christ's teachings if you belief some of it was created by man? Do you know what is truth and what is bunk? How can one say he follows Christ without following ALL of what he said, including that he was God himself?
Inconsistencies, perhaps I worded that wrong. I meant apparent inconsistencies typos do happen, etc. But the Bible has remained pretty much the same over the years (see below website). I'm glad you all are not blindly following what I say, I want you to think for yourselves.
Not all Christians believe that God created only two people in the beginning. Theories run amok in theology just as much as science. "Adam" means "man," "Eve" means "mother of all." Perhaps God created just two beings, maybe he created hundreds.
I probably have just as many questions about the Bible as you do.


--------------------

OTD UNDERDOGS

Is attention your retarded heroin?


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1963557 - 09/29/03 07:40 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Heh.

So, we all evolved from some big bang theory and came from apes, eh?

Lots a people dont think science is all that scientific on that one and there are many flaws and loopholes in the evolution theory. If you'd like to read them, you may want to check out the current suit in the texas courts about how if we are going to teach evolution.. we atleast need to be honest and also teach the people about all the little nonexplanables that evolutionists are taking as "faith" in science.

I accept that we are all flawed, but why must I also accept other unproven assertions(i.e. Mary being a virgin, Jesus being the Son of God, etc.)?
Do you want a picture in some clinical obstetrics book of Mary's hymen?
See, the thing is that the only way we get forgiveness is to accept Jesus is God's son, hence the sacrifice.. just why should you get forgiveness if you think that you just deserve it? What have you done to deserve it?
I mean, you can believe what you want.. you MUST not accept any "assertions" that is the beauty of it. You can do and believe whatever you want. But you need to make sure that you are willing to deal with the eternal consequences of refusing to acknowledge God. If you honestly started seeking.. if you opened your heart, read the Bible, yourself.. then perhaps you could come to know God personally .. maybe you wouldnt. But I ask you, have you read the Bible, from beginning to end? The time is coming, as many other have stated... and its good that you are asking these questions.. just dont let your preconcieved notions or someone else's christianity turn you away from God. Not mine, not anyones.

Can't I simply work to better myself through self-discipline?
You can work to better yourself, we all should strive to do that.. and yes, we can better ourselves through self discipline. But we cant make ourselves perfect, we cant redeem our fall from grace.

Why must I believe what the Bible(which provides no proof that it is the Word of God) tells me, rather than looking at what is apparent(that I am flawed) and changing it myself?
What kind of proof are you looking for, friend? I mean, the bible was indeed written by real people whose real lives can be traced. It didnt just appear in a poof of smoke from the air. God let his word come through the mouths of men for people like you. For questions like that.

And I just dont understand.. can you please tell me just what in the bible doesnt reconcile with your thought of God? What in the Bible is so bad and is so far from the word of any possible God? You just dont agree with the thought of Jesus beging sent to die for our sins? Or do you not believe in God, at all?

You say, we are God. Yes, on a way we are all parts of God.. But we are NOT GOD. God is love and darling, you sure arent completely full of love, either am I.





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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Seuss]
    #1963565 - 09/29/03 07:43 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

The Gospel of THOMAS?

So, you enjoy that last little nugget of wisdom concerning women?  How could the Gospel of Thomas be accurate if it falls short of even Genesis?

Markos must have gotten to you :smile:



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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1963627 - 09/29/03 08:04 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

> we at least need to be honest and also teach the people about all the little nonexplanables that evolutionists are taking as "faith" in science.

I have never heard of evolution taught in school as anything but a theory. I have never once in my life heard the term, "Law of Evolution" (until now *shiver*). It has always been, "Theory of Evolution". In science a theory is an unproven idea, nothing more.

Feel free to bash evolutionists all you want, but please don't bash science simply because evolutionists are misusing terminology.

I personally beleive that they should teach kids the theory of evolution along side the theory of creation along with anything else the kids can dream up. Of course, this would be teaching children to begin thinking on their own, and we can't have that.

> the only way we get forgiveness is to accept Jesus is God's son

This is the part that I have trouble with. My relationship is with the almighty directly... me and "", no intermidate, no Jesus, no Mary, nothing except faith. I have no need to build huge cathedrals to show my faith. I don't need to wear symbols to remind me of my debt for life. I don't need to pay some guy to stand up and tell me how to act. I don't need some book telling me how people in the past think I should behave. All I need is the blessing that I have been given and the simple path I have been shown to follow.


> God is love and darling

God is also hate and vengence. ... and they shall know that I am the lord, when I lay my vengeance upon them.

> you sure arent completely full of love, either am I

Of course you are! Open your eyes and see.

(I don't mean this post to be a flame. I sometimes push in an unexpected direction to try and get people to think about things in a new light. I sometimes push in a direction that I myself don't believe.)


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineTwirling
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1963635 - 09/29/03 08:10 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Seems like this thread has become more about personal interptations of who or what Christ was. Not that its a bad thing at all, but its funny how many statements are made about a figure like Christ.

Personally, I think Christ-figures recreate the desire to have a security of a choosen path, simular to trying to please a parent (sort of the Freudian school of thought). Besides which, if you look at this thread, it's easy to see how quickly interruptations of religion can quickly differ from what was originally said. It's been over 2000 years since Christ died, and to consider how many times the meaning, the origin, the moral, the details, and the truth has been reinterrupted, it's hard to believe that there could be a "right" way to believe or live. Samething with any religion. They are just interruptations of the unknown, and if you can imagine how hard it is to put into words the awe a person feels from some the emotions that are humanly possible, you can imagine how little "absolute" terroritory religion has covered. I personally believe that the more we try to take in and accept, the more we grow (and once again, this is an interruptation).


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The very nature of experience is ineffable; it transcends cognitive thought and intellectualized analysis. To be without experience is to be without an emotional knowledge of what the experience translates into. The desire for the understanding of what life is made of is the motivation that drives us all. Without it, in fear of the experiences what life can hold is among the greatest contradictions; to live in fear of death while not being alive.



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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Seuss]
    #1963640 - 09/29/03 08:11 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

"I'm having trouble figuring out exactly what Christians mean when they say Christ died for our sins. So does that mean all our sins are forgiven? If that's the case, then why would anyone not go to heaven?"


This is a good point. Christ's atoning blood and perfect obedience guarantees and demands salvation for each person He atoned for. If the atonement was for each and every person that ever lived, then no one could be sent to hell since justice is was fully satisfied.

Notice how Jesus bares the sin of many, not every single person who ever lived.

Isiaih 53:11-12 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many;

Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

John 10:14-15 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Who then are "the many"? Who are "the sheep" that He lays down His life for? Not everyone since Jesus tells the people questioning Him:

John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Notice the wording, they believe not because they ARE NOT of His sheep. He did not say because you don't believe you are not my sheep.

The Father has given the sheep to Him from eternity past.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

This truth is all over the Word, that those that inherit eternal life were chosen.

Ephesians 1:4-6 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Notice the "us" and the "we" applies only to the believers that he was writing to. It states the cause of the predestination is "the good pleasure of His will" not the will of man.

And again:

2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

"according to his own purpose and grace", and not men's wills.

The choosing of some to eternal life is the core of true grace, grace not contingent on human merits such as "foreseen faith", repentance, ect.. Any "gospel" that does not understand this grace is a false gospel that can not save. Faith, repentance, ect. are evidences of the grace given, never causes of obtaining grace.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: fivepointer]
    #1963722 - 09/29/03 08:40 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

One more post fivepointer and you can give out ratings. :smile: 


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1963753 - 09/29/03 08:51 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

No silly. You have to repent, have an inner change of heart (metanoia), and ask for the forgiveness that is freely offered. An evil, isolated, egocentric human existence needs to perish so that Christ can be 'born-again' in the heart of the new believer. Evil, ignorant a**holes do not enter into GOD. GOD is Love, and only to the extent that we become transformed into Love ourselves, do we join with GOD. To the extent that we remain identified with wrath - to Wrath do we go.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1963793 - 09/29/03 09:04 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

"The Way," which IS Christ, is also "The Way" which exists in other faiths. In Taoism, the Tao means "The Way." If you are thinking about a bearded 1st century carpenter-rabbi, then we are all in trouble because He hasn't been giving sermons of late. Christ is the Logos - the Nature of GOD that 'interfaces' with human beinghood. GOD exists in other traditions - where does GOD not exist? To maintain that ONLY my tradition is salvific, and all others go directly to Hell, is a complete misunderstanding of the universality of Christ's message. 'Those who aren't against us, are for us.' Only ignorant, bigoted, literal-minded parrots of the various world religions - otherwise known as fanatics/fundamentalists, maintain this utterly stupid stance. A Holy [wo]man in any faith, if they are Holy, are so, because of the ONE GOD Who imparts a Holy Spirit [Consciousness] to that being. Holiness comes from GOD, not from humanity. It is the mark of a mature Christian, or Muslim, or Jew or whomever to Realize that the universal TRUTH is embodied in the individualities of different traditions. All others are still children in matters spiritual who proclaim, sometimes violently, that 'My GOD is better than your GOD.' GOD, people is ONE. "There is no GOD, but GOD." "Hear O Israel, the LORD thy GOD, the LORD is ONE."


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1963804 - 09/29/03 09:06 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Christ died because he was a terrorist in the arab state :wink: 


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"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


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InvisiblePIMPtheSYSTEM
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
    #1963843 - 09/29/03 09:21 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Christianity is stupid


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