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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #1109231 - 12/04/02 05:43 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Thanks for the companionship of your reply. It is usually difficult for me to crawl out on an emotional limb, and do so only if I think it will help convey a truth, but I also feel like I'm high up in a tree and everyone is watching and waiting to see what will happen. Peace.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflineNomad
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1109420 - 12/04/02 08:24 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Thanks for the great reply again. :laugh:

Perhaps you could locate one of the freaks around the planet who has himself nailed to a cross on Good Friday, and ask him if life is blissful.

Well, self-crucification has a rather long tradition among christians. The relationship between pain and religion is a tricky one. No doubt it is pathological most of the time, but also, it's obvious to me that pain is the best object for meditation. Pain will disappear if you look right into it, and if your thoughts stray, it will be unbearable.

I realized that while tripping in nature once. Nasty ants...

The fatal crucifixion of Jesus would have been more overwhelmingly painful than you obviously can imagine.

Again, I agree that being crucified will not lead to a warm and fluffy sensation in the body. Yet I miss your point. It seems like you are trying to convince me of something, but I don't quite get what it is. Do you really expect me to state that Jesus has suffered for my sins? Well, sir, if I have to choose someone who has suffered for my sins, I'd be glad to pick one of the buddhist monks who set himself on fire as a protest against the war in vietnam.

Get out of the ivory tower thinking.

I am glad to climb down from the ivory tower. You dragged me up there in the first place.

You prefer a blow job from a gorgeous sexy woman (if you're straight, otherwise adjust accordingly  ), than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.

I agree. Yes, I will prefer a blow job from a gorgeous sexy woman (if I'm straight, otherwise I'll adjust accordingly) over a poke in the eye with a sharp stick. Jesus, on the other hand, could have had lots of blow jobs from gorgeous sexy women (if he was straight, otherwise adjust accordingly), yet he preferred being nailed to a cross.

But here's a newsflash: Buddha, and Nirvana IS NOT equivalent to Christ and the Kingdom of Heaven/God.

I don't care about that. That statement is very much like Sclorch's idea that Nietzsche was a zen master. Could be, could not be, does not matter much. I don't know what nirvana is, and I certainly don't have a clue where the kingdom of heaven lies. But I am going in a certain direction, and I will take up every vehicle which aids me in getting there. Buddhism is a great vehicle for me, as it is easy to drive. People say that the bible is another great vehicle, yet I can't figure out how to start it. Leo Tolstoi gave me some clues, and another one is: "You are with me in paradise right now, here, hanging on the cross." That gave me a hint, a little understanding. You point out that this translation is wrong, which is fine to me, and I have to accept that, as you are obviously far more knowledgeable than me. Yet I must confess that, then, I don't have a fucking clue what "Verily I say unto you, today thou shalt be with me in paradise" could possibly mean. Your scientific approach to religion, which culminates in statements such as "Buddha, and Nirvana IS NOT equivalent to Christ and the Kingdom of Heaven/God.", is as interesting as it is useless, since it will neither get you closer to nirvana, nor into heaven. It is, according to Crowley, an act in black magick.

We would too. Gautama was another man, with another set of experiences, who withdrew from suffering, even the 'suffering' of having everything which he knew he would lose eventually. He did not take the devil by the horns, but taught followers how to withdraw from suffering - inner and outer.

It's my job to kill the buddha. Rest assured that if I have to, I'm going to kill Jesus, too.       

Edited by Nomad (12/04/02 08:28 AM)

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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Nomad]
    #1110085 - 12/04/02 01:48 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

didn't lenny bruce say something like "if jesus came back today, we'd kill him again"
christian "charity" (= caritas = agape = love) and buddhist lovingkindness (= karuna = compassion) have very much in common...
thomas merton was not the only christian trying to grok the buddhist mindset... and there ahve been many buddhists (& hindus & others) who can connect with much of the christian ethos (if not the christian mythos :wink: ...)
~
namaste
shalom


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care

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OfflineNomad
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: gnrm23]
    #1110106 - 12/04/02 01:58 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Yeah, but the point being that it is commonly acknowledged in buddhism that, in order to become enlightened, you have to "kill the buddha", which means that, in the end, you have to find your own truth. If I would accept a part or all of the christian worldview, I would do it in order to kill Jesus. And I'm a very peaceful person, really.


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Offline3eyedgod
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1110113 - 12/04/02 02:00 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

I do not beleive that reality is a dualism. I beleive in the concept of one. Dark and Light for example are not truly seperate merely different ways of looking at the void. The void is still the void wether you see it as a pure infinite light or empty infinite darkness.

The way i see it, the one quality of consciousness that is universal is awareness.


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Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself

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Offline3eyedgod
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1110137 - 12/04/02 02:12 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

you seem quite reactive to Scriptural quotation, and I would advise self-examination of that reactiveness

I didn't think that my post was all that reactionary. However I suppose if there is any "reactive" quality to my reply, it is because most Christians seem to think that they have the right to force their beleifs on everyone else in the world. If you don't agree with them (these beleif forcing christians) then you are seen as misguided at best, evil at worst. Not to mention the fact that most Christians have about as much knowledge of their religion as i do (and that's pretty sad). Most don't examine their faith to see the meaning behind their scriptures or to see if it makes at least some degree of sense. Most simply blindly, stupidly beleive because that's what they were told to do. Blind beleif is one of the big problems of the world today. So many blindly beleiving in one view because that's what the so called "experts" were talking about on CNN (Bush takes advantage of the people's stupidity daily). Another example, Terrorists ramming 747's into skyscrapers in America, suicide bombing in Israel, Australia, Phillipines. The list goes on and on.

Wow this post was kind of all over the place. I kind of went off on a tangent in that last part. Maybe I should start my own post on that.


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Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: gnrm23]
    #1110709 - 12/04/02 04:55 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Lest anyone misinterpret my respect for Buddhism, I'd like to intrude upon my Mahayana Christian friend's post to say that today I received one of my Christmas gifts early: a bracelet that reads "OM MANI PADMA HUM" in Sanskrit, plus four vajras - my requested gift.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflineFliquid
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Swami]
    #1110777 - 12/04/02 05:13 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

...because fictional characters cannot. 




I love you man!  :grin: 


--------------------
:dancing: My latest music! :yesnod:

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Nomad]
    #1110853 - 12/04/02 05:38 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

What leaps out from your post to my eyes are: "pain is the best object for meditation:" Do you really expect me to state that Jesus suffered for my sins?"; the drawing upon Crowley as an authority on the two major 'High' religions; and "I'm going to kill Jesus too."

For me, I 'connect the dots' to see an undercurrent for which Crowley was a recent spokesperson. All I can tell you is that I had a permanent falling out with a well known editor of psychedelic literature, because I was unimpressed that he was trained in Tarot with Crowley's personal deck. I further added that Crowley set himself up as an enemy of Christ and the Kingdom that Christ came to establish. To place Will [Power] over Love in his formula is an obvious perversion of Christianity - an inversion of Christian value.

Pain, symbolizes several things, analytically taken, but is associated with the flesh, or with punishment (Hell) associated by over-indulgence in the Earthly existence, even to the point of demonic obsession with Earthly values. God alone is the worthy object of meditation and contemplation from my understanding. Lastly, I have zero expectation for your comprehension or acceptance of the 'vicarious sacrifice.' I question the doctrine myself, which is an extension of OT sacrificial religion, and made the basis for Christianity by Paul. The whole premiss of that theology may be inaccurate, but I will never throw the baby out with the bathwater. The entire passion play and mythological drama of Christ - historical or not - remains salvific for me. The myth-structure opens up a 'portal' or 'warp' in space-time so that the references to Christ being a "door" or a "way" makes sense to those of us who have passed through and been forever transformed into a different order of human beings - no longer in 'flames,' but in 'Light.'

Lastly, one does have to make a decision ultimately, as to Whom one's Master is, and that decision is precious, not useless. One cannot walk upon different paths simultneously, and all paths do not arrive at the same destination. On can learn from other walks of life, but one always has to make a committment if one is to go anywhere in particular. That means sacrificing other things. Jesus sacrificed his life, which included romantic, familial and erotic elements. When one marries, and commits, one sacrifices opportunities to 'know' other women sexually - or one is not truly married or committed. One path excludes another and limitation is accepted in the process.

Again, sometimes one can find consonance (Buddhist karma = "as ye sow, so shall ye reap."), and then one learns from another path. But to affirm that Ultimate Reality is ONLY the impersonal Void, and there is no personal God, is why Hinduism in great measure rejected Buddhism as a heresy, an error, and why Christianity cannot be consonant with it. My job is to 'understand' [Binah], which leads to wisdom [Chokmah], which leads to the One.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Offlinejohnnyfive
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: 3eyedgod]
    #1111472 - 12/04/02 08:14 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Would like to tell me who god is then?

Ever seen the beginning of religion on this earth, we've been living in spiritual darkness, and soon we will find out that all along we-were the one's who were gods.

Ya know mushrooms have been a part of most religions in the world, at one time. Epecially the bible, and the bible has alot of spirituallity in it.

"Man (refering to everyone) won't talk to me for 1000 years", was something said in the bible, Issaiha i believe (something like that).

Maybe "ME" coniusousness, what do ya think?


--------------------
And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!

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Offline3eyedgod
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1111538 - 12/04/02 08:32 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

One cannot walk upon different paths simultneously, and all paths do not arrive at the same destination.

I couldn't disaree more with that second part.  I think that when it is all said and done we all end up in the same place.  We will come full circle.  We will all return from wherever we all came from.  I happen to beleive that is conciousness without form or structure or boundary, and no concept of right or wrong.  Just pure awareness, pure "isness".

As 1st part of that i'm not sure.  If we are all one consciousness(as i beleive) we could be living out every possibility(infinite) all at once.  I think quantum mechanics would grant some credibility to this.

But hey, I could be wrong about everything.  If i'm wrong and the Christian god is that which awaits us after death, then i'll be damned to hell for not accepting christ as my savior.  I will pledge my soul to lucifer and spend all eternity helping to bring about the downfall of that judgemental, arrogant,devious, unempathetic, uncaring, cruel trickster of a godhead.

Oh, did i forget to mention my qualms with the Christian deity in my previous post :grin:     


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Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself

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Offline3eyedgod
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: johnnyfive]
    #1111546 - 12/04/02 08:36 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

You obviously haven't read many of my posts. If you had you may have noticed that my beleifs seem to be quite similar to your own.

As for the part about "we" have been living in spiritual darkness, that is a subjective statement. It would also depend on which "we" you are referring to. I hardly think that the Buddhists would fit into the category of "spiritual darkness" as you are using that term.

Did you even read my signature?


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Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself

Edited by 3eyedgod (12/04/02 08:39 PM)

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: 3eyedgod]
    #1111597 - 12/04/02 08:57 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

I think that you've been watching too many devil movies during your outdoor suspensions - probably for graffiti - of inverted pentagrams and stuff.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Offline3eyedgod
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1111625 - 12/04/02 09:06 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

I don't beleive in the devil anymore than i beleive in the Christian god. I'm just saying if the christian theology is correct and i end up in hell god better watch out.


--------------------
Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself

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OfflineMurex
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: 3eyedgod]
    #1111641 - 12/04/02 09:12 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

When saying it like that, refer to it as "God".  :wink:


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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Offline3eyedgod
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Murex]
    #1111644 - 12/04/02 09:14 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

lol :laugh:


--------------------
Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself

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OfflineNomad
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1112550 - 12/05/02 02:40 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

What leaps out from your post to my eyes are: "pain is the best object for meditation:" Do you really expect me to state that Jesus suffered for my sins?"; the drawing upon Crowley as an authority on the two major 'High' religions; and "I'm going to kill Jesus too."

LOL. You gotta love the human ability for pattern recognition...  :tongue:

That Crowley reference was basically just bait. I remembered from another thread that you had been into magick in your early years. However, the guy said some smart things (but then, who didn't?). "Every magical act which is not directed towards re-establishing the original unity is black magick." And science is magick, of course.

Lastly, I have zero expectation for your comprehension or acceptance of the 'vicarious sacrifice.' I question the doctrine myself, which is an extension of OT sacrificial religion, and made the basis for Christianity by Paul. The whole premiss of that theology may be inaccurate, but I will never throw the baby out with the bathwater. The entire passion play and mythological drama of Christ - historical or not - remains salvific for me.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Lastly, one does have to make a decision ultimately, as to Whom one's Master is, and that decision is precious, not useless. One cannot walk upon different paths simultneously, and all paths do not arrive at the same destination.

Have to disagree. We are gifted with the possibility to choose among many paths. Abandoning that wealth for narrow historical reasons is contraproductive. Spiritual seekers in the past did not limit themselves to one path because of rational decisions, but because there was nothing more available.

Likewise, the attitude that one has to "choose his master" has likely been a valuable one in other times and other cultures. Right here, in this fucked up 20th century western civilization, with all it's garbage of authoritarianism and dogmatism, it won't be of much help, and, in fact, is rather dangerous. Lots of abusive teacher/student relationships around here. No master for me, thank you.

On can learn from other walks of life, but one always has to make a committment if one is to go anywhere in particular. That means sacrificing other things.

Certainly.

Again, sometimes one can find consonance (Buddhist karma = "as ye sow, so shall ye reap."), and then one learns from another path. But to affirm that Ultimate Reality is ONLY the impersonal Void, and there is no personal God, is why Hinduism in great measure rejected Buddhism as a heresy, an error, and why Christianity cannot be consonant with it.

You might notice that I have defended people's right to believe around here, including the belief in a personal god. But I'm very much of a pragmatist, and belief for it's own sake I cannot stand.

Reality, of course, is neither impersonal Void, nor personal God. It is three pounds of flax.

       

Edited by Nomad (12/05/02 09:01 AM)

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OfflineNomad
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Nomad]
    #1112553 - 12/05/02 02:43 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Right here, in this fucked up 20th century western civilization, with all it's garbage of authoritarianism and dogmatism, it won't be of much help, and, in fact, is rather dangerous.

Uh... what was the century again?

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OfflineNomad
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1112703 - 12/05/02 03:40 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

On a sidenote, you misread me rather heavily, and I'd risk to say you did that deliberately after my reference to Crowley. Can't say I didn't provoke it, though, so I'll appreciate it.

Pain, symbolizes several things, analytically taken, but is associated with the flesh, or with punishment (Hell) associated by over-indulgence in the Earthly existence, even to the point of demonic obsession with Earthly values. God alone is the worthy object of meditation and contemplation from my understanding.

Goddamn... (sorry). Don't scare me, man. What I meant was (and, hey, it was fucking obvious from the context, no?) meditating on the experience of pain, not the concept of pain. Arguing that the pain experienced when sitting cross-legged (or because of those nasty ants) is not God would be a futile standpoint, and a very dualistic one at that. Not to speak of denial.



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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Nomad]
    #1112778 - 12/05/02 04:54 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

"if you meet the buddha on the road, kill that fellow"
well, that is most assuredly a statement from a zen master, but...
not all buddhists are in the zen tradition... and the majority of the worlds buddhists do revere old shakyamuni (even zennists :wink: ...)(then there's the story about the master burning the manuscripts to keep warm: when discovered in the act, the one feeding the fire was asked "what are you doing?" to which he replied "what are you saying?" ; and yet the majority of those in the zen tradition, as well as other mahayanists, and those following theraveda, vajrayana, vipassana, and other tradtions, all study the scriptures...)
~
hmmmm....
hinduism and buddhism...
well, yeah, buddhism sprang out of the hindu currents (as did jainism & several others over the last couple millenia) --- buddha's rejection of an abiding soul (anatta vs. atman) and his statements about man's not needing  the help of the god(s) in his struggle for liberation (and probably his rejection of the caste system, heh...) set buddhism at major odds with the dominant hindu culture... and today buddhism is a very minor religion within mother india, though it certainly spread quite widely elsewhere in asia! (although many hindus acknowledge the historical buddha as an avatar - as they likewise acknowledge christ, and many other saints, sages, and saviors to be incarnations of one aspect or another of the underlying godhead/brahman)
~
in the book _conversations christians and buddhist_ (with poet gary snyder, as well as prominent christian and buddhist leaders), and in books by folks such as thomas merton, frederick frank, and the dalai lama, it is obvious that christians and buddhists can agree about many things, while _respecfully_ disagreeing about other things...
~
i know there was a book about zen catholicism... and i have heard of a guy talking about being a zen baptist... and i am working on developing zen lutheranism :wink: ...
~
as to the reason for suffering, and the intrinsic nature of man, and the ultimate destination that all of us must eventually deal with... well, sometimes the clearest message is from those who maintain "a noble silence" ... (not from this chattering monkey, obviously :wink: ...)
~
peace be with you
shanti om


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care

Edited by gnrm23 (12/05/02 05:01 AM)

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