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OfflineViveka
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: ribbit]
    #1104028 - 12/02/02 01:15 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

"god was unable to accompany him because god cannot take part in death"

Give me a BREAK!

Now THAT'S rich!

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Nomad]
    #1104587 - 12/02/02 04:27 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Of course, no one knows exactly what Jesus said from the cross, if anything besides the sound of pain. Of all the gospels circulating around the ancient world, the Church Fathers selected Matthew, Mark (the oldest), Luke and John (which almost didn't make it 'cause it was too mystical and pseudo-gnostic). What we have in these canonical gospels is not all there is. Other gospels depicted the death differently. Thomas didn't speak of the cross at all, but spoke to a realized eschatology in his gospel.

The Zennist was attempting to reinterpret Christian doctrine by Buddhist doctrine. That is, Christianity is a 'partially realized eschatology,' which means that the ultimate state of reality is only partly here and now, while the fulfillment lies in a 'future' state. Buddhism doesn't call it this, but from a Christian definition, Buddhism is a 'fully realized eschatology' which means - yup, you got it - it's ALL right here and now, like the book BE HERE NOW says. Now, Christian mysticism agrees with the Buddhist point-of-view, but also admits that the 'fullness' (pleroma) will manifest historically at some undetermined time. Saint Paul thought that Jesus would return shortly after His Ascension, and that fullness would then begin to manifest, but Paul was in error...OR...all of mainstream Christianity that has looked to a fullfillment in historical time has been WRONG!

In her book 'The Gnostic Paul,' Elaine Pagels, the Princeton theologian, interprets the Pauline letters along Gnostic lines instead of the traditional Christian historical understanding. From a Gnostic Christian point-of-view, 'the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand, and men see it not.' "Verily I say unto you, today thou shalt be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43) does represent a metaphysical reality that exists between death and resurrection, in the historical scheme, but again, it is a level of present reality, here and now. The Zennist needs a compassionate slap upside his head to awaken to the simple realization that being nailed through wrists and feet to an upright timber, after receiving 40 lashes with lead-dumbell-tipped leather thongs (flagrum), is gonna set up such waves of agony, before the additional agony of diaphragmatic paralysis and asphixiation sets in, that NO ONE is gonna experience bliss until the "pain-body" (Eckhart Tolle) dies. One hopes, with the theological virtue of hope, that every martyr experienced infinitely increasing degrees of bliss as their tortured bodies died around their Essence [Spirit]. [Whew !]


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflineMurex
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1104775 - 12/02/02 05:44 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Saying that I am God doesn't boost my ego. Of course I also said that everyone was also God, so it would be pointless to think I was above everyone else.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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Offlinejohnnyfive
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Murex]
    #1104785 - 12/02/02 05:50 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Hey murex i hear ya bud, i believe were all gods too. Gods in ammenisa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We don't know where gods, but hell,... thats what hallucinagens do, they remind us who we are!!!!!

Although that realization didn't come from a shroom trip for me.

If you were the one that posted the trip report - God and Truth (or something like that). I loved it yo!


--------------------
And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!

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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: GrowingVines]
    #1104824 - 12/02/02 06:05 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

I'm convinced Mary wasn't a virgin..... she probably got all freaked out and didn't want to tell mom and dad that she fucked Joseph, so uhh some angels came to me I swear, it was amazing!!


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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OfflineGrowingVines
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Strumpling]
    #1104905 - 12/02/02 06:31 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Back in the day, they probibly would believe an angel came down and said, you've gotta have a baby. Now adays, parents would slap the chick upside the head if they told us that


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Peace out my brothers, for everyone has a bit of insanity in them

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Murex]
    #1104911 - 12/02/02 06:33 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

That's not what I said. An inflated ego proclaims itself to be God. Enlightened understanding of the origin of pure identity from its Source always manifests that truth through humility, not bravado. Including others in that definition is merely to project one's own inflated self-concept onto them. Think about it...who is making such a bold proclamation? It isn't coming from God, it is coming from you, who is assuming some kind of identification with God. That aspect of you which may be 'most like' the nature of God - your 'spirit,' as opposed to your 'ego,' is described by the Psalmist as the 'small, still voice within.' Look at the qualities of personality that flow from the highest state - love:

"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil, but rejoices in the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres." (I Corinthians 13:4-7, NIV)


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Anonymous

Post deleted by Moe Howard [Re: Murex]
    #1104945 - 12/02/02 06:40 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)


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Offline3eyedgod
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1105095 - 12/02/02 07:28 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Look at the qualities of personality that flow from the highest state - love:

who said that in states of consciousness or of emotion one is higher than the other?

All things are equal. Hatred is as much a part of the source as love. They are merely different expressions of the Tao.

Enlightened understanding of the origin of pure identity from its Source always manifests that truth through humility, not bravado.

same as above. The source expresses itself in an infinite number of ways. You can find the message in any of them. It's just a matter of which expression you understand best.


--------------------
Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself

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Offline3eyedgod
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: ]
    #1105106 - 12/02/02 07:32 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Hallucinogens allow you to experience reality from a vast array of different perspectives. One can learn and benefit from a "bad trip". Neither be attracted or repelled by the images and feelings around you. Experience them and let them pass. There is no one fixed truth. Everything is in a state of constant flux. The good and the bad come and go in an endless circle. It should be our goal to learn from all of these experiences.


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Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: 3eyedgod]
    #1105438 - 12/02/02 09:12 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Where have YOU been? You teach me nothing about Dao - which means 'Way,' which is the Logos, which is Christ. Love is an emotion in common everyday English language, but Love - 'agape ' - is NOT an emotion in Christianity. Love is the metaphysics of God. "God is Love " (1 John 4:8) denotes Love as the humanly comprehensible aspect of Transcendental Being. Hatred is an emotion, and as such is not the diametrical opposite of Love in the Christian meaning. Your linguistic division of opposites into some Yin-Yang symbolism is crude, and defined by a rather shallow comparison of contemporary English words.

I am not a pantheist [pan-theist] as you seem to be, with 'pan,' in the Greek indicating 'all,' and 'theist' tacked on to mean that 'God is everything,' essentially. I might be 'panENtheist, wherein God is immanent in creation, but not identical to creation. All things are not equal - morality first and foremost. Any authentic Daoist would be as a genuine Christian, with the aforementioned qualities. Otherwise, it's not genuine, just an intellectual rationalisation for 'anything goes,' not Enlightenment.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: 3eyedgod]
    #1105501 - 12/02/02 09:31 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

3eyedgod,

I think you're right on the dot.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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OfflineNomad
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1106430 - 12/03/02 06:16 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Thanks for the great reply :laugh:. Very interesting perspective. However...

The Zennist needs a compassionate slap upside his head to awaken to the simple realization that being nailed through wrists and feet to an upright timber, after receiving 40 lashes with lead-dumbell-tipped leather thongs (flagrum), is gonna set up such waves of agony, before the additional agony of diaphragmatic paralysis and asphixiation sets in, that NO ONE is gonna experience bliss until the "pain-body" (Eckhart Tolle) dies.

Well, I think that "paradise" would not refer to physical pleasure as opposed to physical pain. I agree that being crucified will not lead to a warm and fuzzy sensation in the body. But in an enlightened context, where is the difference between pleasure and pain?  Both are undefined occurrences - things which are neither this nor that - unless one judges pain as bad and pleasure as good, und thus creates a perceptual context. But beyond that, it seems to me, there would be an attitude which accepts both pleasure and pain as manifestations of the larger mystery which is around, namely existance itself. Feeling pain is a good hint that one is alive, and being alive is bliss. Even when you're nailed to a cross.

Looked it up, by the way.  The zen master was Soen Nakagawa Roshi, and the alternate translation was given to him by an "orthodox christian". 

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Anonymous

Post deleted by Moe Howard [Re: 3eyedgod]
    #1108155 - 12/03/02 08:19 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)


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OfflineMurex
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: ]
    #1108242 - 12/03/02 09:01 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

I found it to make perfect sense. I used to be a christian and very ardent in my beliefs until one trip, 2 years ago. About every 30 days since I find someone else who believes this too. It seems there is some sort of proof in this because of these people. This backs up my beliefs when I thought I was alone.

It's still my opinion......just like everything I say.  :wink:


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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Offline3eyedgod
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1108255 - 12/03/02 09:06 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

I am entitled to my opinion just as you are entitled to yours. The bible does present some lessons from it's parables and offers an interesting perspective on existance. Quoting verses from it will not get you far with me. As i do not accept that text as the ultimate truth.

I apologize for my "crude" comparison of yin-yang (forcefulness-receptiveness). However i do feel justified in the comparison in that love and hate are qualitative opposites just as yin and yang. Differences between eastern and western language not withstanding.

If hate is not the opposite of love what is (in the christian meaning)?


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Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: Nomad]
    #1108321 - 12/03/02 09:23 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Perhaps you could locate one of the freaks around the planet who has himself nailed to a cross on Good Friday, and ask him if life is blissful. There is a chance you would receive an affirmative answer, because he would be a masochist in the extremely pathological part of the masochistic spectrum, and would undoubtedly be in some kind of sensual bliss.

The fatal crucifixion of Jesus would have been more overwhelmingly painful than you obviously can imagine. This did not preclude His choice to do 'His Father's Will,' which included taking on the karma of humankind as the 'Lamb of God.' Paradise in the NT was different from OT paradise, which was described in the terms of a 'garden,' like Eden. NT Paradise was a Transcendental Realm - Heaven - and therefore beyond the opposites of pleasure and pain. Nevertheless, Jesus the man had to experience death in its most terrible reality, which included the experience of abandonment to the powers of evil, and the 'kenosis,' or self-emptying of His Divine Nature. If Jesus had not experienced real death, then His Resurrection (whatever that actually was) would have little meaning for the rest of us humans who are destined to die. His would have been a special case.

Get out of the ivory tower thinking. It is unreal (even though I am a philosophical Idealist in many ways) and has zero practical value. You prefer a blow job from a gorgeous sexy woman (if you're straight, otherwise adjust accordingly :smile:  ), than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick. Tell me I'm wrong, I'll tell you you're a liar. Yes, the nervous system carries the signals impartially, but YOU, as sentient being, have real human preferences for those impulses.

The state of mind where 'it's all just happening,' CAN be a state of Enlightenment from a Buddhist position -  Ratnasambhava's Wisdom of Equality, or Askobhya's Wisdom of the Great Mirror, in Vajrayana Buddhism, OR it be flattened affect in the schizophrenic, which is not Enlightenment. But here's a newsflash: Buddha, and Nirvana IS NOT equivalent to Christ and the Kingdom of Heaven/God. One may postulate a "Transcendent Unity of Religions" like Frithjof Schuon, but there remains a pluralistic point of view as well which complicates things. There is no rational solution to certain logical inquiries. Jesus suffered on the cross. We would too. Gautama was another man, with another set of experiences, who withdrew from suffering, even the 'suffering' of having everything which he knew he would lose eventually. He did not take the devil by the horns, but taught followers how to withdraw from suffering - inner and outer. 


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: 3eyedgod]
    #1108418 - 12/03/02 09:50 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Love, as the Divine Nature in Christianity, DOES NOT have an opposite 'principle.' This is the religion of Zoroastrianism wherein Ultimate Reality is a duality, not One. Star Wars is a modern myth drawing on this kind of dualism of Dark and Light.

Love is a matter of 'will' or as phenomenological philosophers might say 'intentionality' - which is the one quality that consciousness is said to have as a universal - as an 'invariant feature.' If God is pure consciousness, [S]He is characterized by 'will,' or 'intentionality' or again, by 'identity' which I 'intend' here to be synonyms. If someone 'loves you' in the sense of a verb here, or really, as the creative aspect of the state of being which is love (noun), then one is actually 'willing that which is good' for you. Just how one person 'loves' another differs by the type of relationships we have with each other. They are all different - mother, brother, father, friend, lover, etc., but their 'will to goodness,' so-to-speak, stands behind whatever their actions are that manifest that goodness. As a professional counselor, I often act compassionately without acting passionately. As a matter of fact, I am forced by my position and responsibility and ethics to act dispassionately, but that does not diminish my compassion, just my passion or feelings.

I loved my mother, and as I held her hand as she died, I received the grace to mediate peace and fearlessness to her as I spoke, because I did not want to upset her by my own emotions. I cried after she flat-lined. I would want the same for me. The compassionate thing was for me to allay her fear and anxiety. 'Love' in the common use of the term, means attachment and desire. In the true, spiritual meaning it is willing the good, which in that moment had nothing to do with my own emotional self-indulgence. I hope the personal example helps to illustrate the meaning of love as the mediation of Divinity (Compassion, Peace, Selflessness), not mere feeling.

BTW, I never established the degree of Ultimate Reality that Scriptures embodies for me. I am far from a Bibliolator or a Fundamentalist, but you seem quite reactive to Scriptural quotation, and I would advise self-examination of that reactiveness.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1108530 - 12/03/02 10:38 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

on christmas day a couple years ago my grandfather died, he had suffered for years from small strokes that led from a loss of equilibreum to impaired memory, slurred speech, the inability to walk, and finally the inability to speak and intense chronic muscular pain. for the last year and a half of his life he could only type out small phrases on a little pocket computer. that christmas day, my cousin and i were outside this playground-park behind their house and smoked marijuana and hashish together, our first time together, and reminissed on all these wonderful childhood memories of spending time with our pap. he was a devout catholic, which always came across to me while growing up as "country-club" religion for wealthy republicans, loud and opinionated men who celebrated after mass with gourmet cooking, liquor, and games. i have a few memories of his theology, several repeated quotes - he told his friends who made racist comments that when they died, in heaven they'd find out that jesus was a black man. and that heaven was an enhancement of whatever you were passionate about, and since i was interested in fantasy novels, heaven would be something like these mythological worlds for me. and then there was his favorite poem, which he had recited so many times to me, and actually kept it in his pocket computer and read it daily.

"Abou Ben Adhem" was written by James Henry Leigh Hunt (1784-1859).

Abou Ben Adhem (may his tribe increase!)
Awoke one night from a deep dream of peace,
And saw, within the moonlight in his room,
Making it rich, and like a lily in bloom,
An Angel writing in a book of gold:
Exceeding peace had made Ben Adhem bold,
And to the Presence in the room he said,
"What writest thou?" The Vision raised its head,
And with a look made of all sweet accord
Answered, "The names of those who love the Lord."
"And is mine one?" said Abou. "Nay, not so,"
Replied the Angel. Abou spoke more low,
But cheerly still; and said, "I pray thee, then,
Write me as one that loves his fellow-men."

The Angel wrote, and vanished. The next night
It came again with a great wakening light,
And showed the names whom love of God had blessed,
And, lo! Ben Adhem's name led all the rest!

anyways, when my cousin and i came back to my grandparent's house (my grandfather had been in a nursing home for years), we learned that our grandfather was about to die, and everyone was to go and visit in pairs since his room was so small. when it was our turn to go, my pap's chest was heaving up and down so fast, he looked out of his mind and scared. i held his hand and congratulated him, told him 'you made it, pap!" and my cousin and i recounted all these memories of him... within 15 minutes or so he was breathing much better, and i don't know how much of it was the hemp, but things got very tibetan buddhist like and i was hallucinating strongly these awesome spiritual entities, and i had this feeling by the look of awe on his face we were sharing these visions... not much longer and he passed away... i cried after he died, which was a blessing for me since i seldomly do, and have since felt a stronger connection with my pap concerning biological and spiritual levels, his death turned something on in me that helped me understand myself better on several levels... i know this is off the main topic, but i just felt like sharing. blessings, cj


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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Anonymous

Re: If Jesus suffered for our sins... [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #1108796 - 12/04/02 12:17 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Thank you CJ. That was warm, heartfelt, and very moving.

May 'Pap' rest in peace.

Allow me to give you a humble 5 star rating for your attitude.

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