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OfflineZahid
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1981846 - 10/05/03 07:01 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
However, here is a list of Christian beliefs of which I am still skeptical:
--that the Bible is infallible(actually, I'm fairly certain it's not)
--that human beings were created out of nothing rather than evolving from other species
--that Noah took two of every species and got them to fuck on a boat
--that Jesus was born of a virgin
--that Jesus was the only son of God(since God is the ultimate reality, in a sense we are all God's children)
--that Jesus was the Messiah(the Messiah was supposed to bring peace on earth, but that clearly hasn't happened)
--that Jesus came back from the dead(read "The Passover Plot")
--that believing all of this is the only way to salvation
--that there is even a need for this so-called "salvation" 




How many times does Markos have to make reference to John Shelby Spong? :smile:

Any religion is just an idea that pertains to what is otherwise completely unknown to the majority of humans - because they can't know, it would cause anarchy in my opinion.


--------------------


Edited by Zahid (10/05/03 07:08 PM)


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InvisibleHillbillie
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Zahid]
    #1981986 - 10/05/03 08:15 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

>God can not look at ANY unrighteousness since God is perfectly Holy.<

Are we talking about the same omnipotent God here? If so, how can an omnipotent being (that is, one that is capable of doing anything) be uncapable of doing something? If God is unable to look at any unrighteousness then God is not omnipotent. The rest of your reasoning would sort of crumble after that, wouldn't it?

>Then, of course, I realized that you actually believe in what you just said, and then I sort of shook my head in dismay... I feel truly sorry for you, man.<

That's a pretty shitty thing to say, I think. You probably mean no offense, but still are you that arrogant to assume your beliefs somehow fall under a better reasoning system than his?

>If God gave us the gift of reason, why won't he allow us to use it in this instance?<

Void argument; you've contradicted yourself. He (assuming God exists) allowed you to use reason when you formulated that question.

>It seems unfair to condemn us to Hell for demanding proof.<

I would agree, but I'm also an admittedly-arrogant bastard. :wink: Seriously though, maybe things like this transcend physics, logics, reason, and proof? Maybe there are just some things which are stronger than "proof". Don't ask me what they are; I'm just making a supposition. All I'm saying is just because *you* don't understand why someone does something doesn't mean they don't have a good reason.

I see it as this: if God exists as the Christians say he exist, and he condemns people to Hell for denying his existence, then I don't think you can judge that. Judging God would be like judging gravity. ("Who the FUCK has the audacity to prevent ME from floating off into the air, huh??") If God is real and the aforementioned way is the way he really conducts business, then that simply is how it works. Saying he is wrong is void and null, for it can never be a truth; HE CREATED RIGHT AND WRONG, and he defines those things. (All assuming God exists here, BTW.)

>So is it ok to doubt Jesus' divinity, or that he saves? Is it ok that I'm uncertain about these things? Will I still be saved if I am still uncertain about these things when I die?<

I think you're asking questions which we here at the Shroomery (or any other place in the world for that matter) have no capablity of answering. Read the Bible yourself and conclude these answers on what your take of it all is.


I think there are just too many people running around judging others' beliefs when they have absolutely no place to. Believe what you want, and share your beliefs with others if it's the right place, but don't be so arrogant that you insist your way to believing something is the only correct way. (I'm not really talking to anyone in particular here; it's just in my experience in debating this topic there's a lot of these people out there.) People often tell me they base their insults on others' beliefs on the fact that those beliefs have no founding in logic; the thing is everyone has faith in something; there is nothing that you can hold as an absolute truth except that YOU exist and that YOU perceive. I know that I exist; it is self-evident. I assume there is a monitor in front of me, for I perceive it. I have faith that I am typing this message to other entities who also exist (Shroomrites), but I can never KNOW if this is true. If people would keep these things in mind when regarding religion, I think we wouldn't have half the bad things in this world that we do today. Of course, this *is* humanity; I wouldn't put it past us. :wink: 


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OfflineFunguy
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Hillbillie]
    #1982046 - 10/05/03 08:41 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Hillbillie said:
>God can not look at ANY unrighteousness since God is perfectly Holy.<

Are we talking about the same omnipotent God here? If so, how can an omnipotent being (that is, one that is capable of doing anything) be uncapable of doing something? If God is unable to look at any unrighteousness then God is not omnipotent. The rest of your reasoning would sort of crumble after that, wouldn't it?





Yes God is omnipotent, but he views sin as we would view a horrible stench. Would you want to be in a room that smelled of rotting flesh? This is how he views sin.
The only thing I am trying to get through (whether you believe it or not) is that even though God views sin with disgust, he willingly let his son die for us (sinners). He did this so we may live with him for eternity.
This may be the ultimate truth, it may not be. I only believe what I think is the truth. If I am wrong, I don't really have much to lose.


--------------------

OTD UNDERDOGS

Is attention your retarded heroin?


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InvisibleHillbillie
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
    #1982081 - 10/05/03 08:59 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

>Yes God is omnipotent, but he views sin as we would view a horrible stench. Would you want to be in a room that smelled of rotting flesh? This is how he views sin.<

Ah, okay...so he really could if he wanted to just as we could view a horrible stench, but like us he chooses not to? Thanks for clearing it up. :smile:

I'd also like to say that I'm an agnostic deist, but I'm completely open to all of the faiths in the world.

I'd also like to say that some days I believe in God and others I'm back to my agnostical self. If God does exist, I believe there not to be a Hell, though there probably (hopefully) is a Heaven. This is a unusual belief, I understand...but the guy that explained it to me answered every question I had, and moreover they were good answers! I'll try to find the thread (I saved it on my hard disk...) and post it here; I'm sure a lot of you would enjoy the read. 


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OfflineFunguy
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Hillbillie]
    #1982251 - 10/05/03 10:10 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

It is good to ask questions, and listen to many answers. If you have any questions, I would be delighted to answer them to the best of my ability. I myself do not have all the answers, but I pray that God gives me the knowledge to answer them. God bless.


--------------------

OTD UNDERDOGS

Is attention your retarded heroin?


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1982299 - 10/05/03 10:29 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Backwards:
-There is quite obviously a need for salvation, second birth has been practiced in some form since paleolithic times. I've already given a terse description of the necessity.

-Literal belief in non-literal midrash (you need to understand this word if you're going to understand anything of Biblical writing) is NOT what results in salvation.

-The Resurrection is NOT necessarily a resusitation. The earliest writer in the NT - Paul - NEVER spoke about a tomb narrative. These were later writings and were also midrashic illustrations of a Mystery. They were used in the Church as liturgical pieces to bring this Mystery to even the most concrete minds, not just philosophers and educated.

-The Jewish ideal of Meshiach was one of a Heavenly King - a ruler, who would reinstate the specific tribal peoples of the Israelites to their former greatness (as if...any people holds world power indefinately). The Messiah Himself said that His Kingdom was not of this world. He came into this world to teach humans how to reach His world - not to establish peace-on-Earth in any historical sense.

-To Gentile readers of the NT who are not the least bit conversant with OT terms or concepts, son of God is NOT the unique title given to Jesus but to any Divinely appointed ruler. Kingship was attributed to the Will of God. Without citing references, son of God is found in the OT in several places. With regard to later theology, the "Only Begotten Son" is a metaphysical assertion that the Godhead projected a 'prolation' of It's Nature (not the Essence, which is called 'the Father') into history (space-time) where is co-existed with human nature ('fully God, fully man' says the Creed). The Only Begotten (not made, extended from Eternity) Son is the Logos, through which creation came about and from which the Spirit proceeds (Orthodoxy) to interface with the human 'Nous' (the higher part of our spirit).

-Virgin, in Hebrew in 'almah.' Young woman is 'bertollah.' TWO different words. Matthew hadn't read the Hebrew prophesy of Isaiah where he prophesied this - Matthew read the Septuigint - the OT in Greek, which had been used for about 200 years. In Greek, there was ONE word for virgin and young woman - 'Parthenos.' The entire non-Hebrew idea of the 'virgin birth' and all the value upon Catholic nuns etc. through history was based upon the mistranslation of the FALLIBLE words of Matthew.

-Noah is another mythological story of a deluge found in many old civilizations. Despite The Search for Noah's Ark and remains on Mt. Ararat, there are symbolic lessons to be learned on the 'conjuntio' of opposites, the rainbow sign, and the first covenant between man and God. There may be a historical grain, but not the midrashic illustration as it's read - not literally.

-Adam (adama means clay in Hebrew) was metaphorically described as arising as if from a potter's hand. In other words, inorganic matter is breathed into (spirit=ruach=breath) and a living soul results. There is nothing whatever about the 'how' of this process, scientifically speaking. It is not a scientific document and wasn't intended to describe actual, literal events. It was midrash! It is a mythological rendering of creation, not a Big Bang-evolutionary model that we now know much about. Nevertheless 10 to the minus 43rd second amounts to "Let There Be Light!" - the Divine Fiat Lux. And organic life DID evolve from inorganic matter - against the ever-present 'background radiation' of God's Immanent Presence.

-Infalliblity - I believe I touched on that

Sleep well tonight.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Zahid]
    #1982332 - 10/05/03 10:39 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I agree with almost everything you said, and I have read that thing about the stars dimming as the sun brightens. The Person of Christ as the Word is somehow equivalent to the Words of the Qu'ran as the Way to God (Allah, Abba, Abwoon). Like the Word in Spirit and in letter, the Qu'ran takes the form of printed words aswell as being a spiritual Presence. On these exoteric baseline differences, Islam and Christianity will always be separate and dual. Only in the "Transcendent Unity of Religions" (Frithjof Schuon) can Truth be ONE. Salaam Aleichem. Shalom.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1982395 - 10/05/03 11:01 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

-There is quite obviously a need for salvation, second birth has been practiced in some form since paleolithic times. I've already given a terse description of the necessity.



This was the only part of your post I had a problem with. I guess we need to clarify what is meant by "salvation." I always figured that in traditional Christianity, this meant salvation from Hell, which is a concept I don't believe in. If God is infinite and eternal, then that means that there is God is everywhere, which contradicts the notion of Hell as the absence of God.

I do believe that mankind needs salvation from its own evils, such as hate, vengeance, greed, ignorance, and apathy, but not because of what awaits them in the afterlife, but rather because these things are destructive to humankind. If this is the salvation of which you speak, then I agree wholeheartedly. If it isn't, then please explain what you mean.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1982569 - 10/06/03 12:13 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

There are Hells in Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism as well. In Judaism the conditions of post mortem existence are not articulated in the exoteric religious forms, but they are in the Kabbala - the Qlippoth or mirror image of the Tree of Life. Whatever Hell might be, it may be considered as the Wrath of God. In Kabbalism, the Tree of Life has two sides: Justice and Mercy. Justice is wrathful, Divine Fire as opposed to Divine Light. Those who are identified with this natural corrupt existence, as opposed to the spiritual pure existence, will experience the Unmitigated Light of Radiant Eternity as a consuming fire. Not to be imagined as 'flames' mind you. The ancients knew only fire and lightening besides the heat of the sun. We know Laser light, fission light, fusion light. The point is that we are like 3 stage rockets, with materialists falling back to Earth like the 1st stage to be consumed in the atmosphere, as with the psychic people in stage two who identify themselves with thought. It is only the 3rd stage that leaves the downward, fiery end for the panorama of space and the nebulosities of the heavens.

Analogies only go so far. Salvation is a psychospiritual process in which one comes to acknowledge a new psychospiritual Center to one's psychospiritual existence. It is not the ego which is the center of one's psychophysical life (mind-body or soul). It is a higher Center. It now Governs one's life. One 'bows' to the Guidance of Divine Compassion and one surrenders one's ego to it. When selfish desires arise, they are sacrificed to the Higher law of Love and Compassion. This is mortification of the flesh, crucifixion of one's ego, and a yielding to the Living Presence of God Who now is the Pilot of one's inner life, and the ego the co-pilot, instead of the other way around. You cannot understand this until you have lived it for a while. Living it, is The Way.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1982826 - 10/06/03 01:49 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

There are Hells in Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism as well. In Judaism the conditions of post mortem existence are not articulated in the exoteric religious forms, but they are in the Kabbala - the Qlippoth or mirror image of the Tree of Life. Whatever Hell might be, it may be considered as the Wrath of God. In Kabbalism, the Tree of Life has two sides: Justice and Mercy. Justice is wrathful, Divine Fire as opposed to Divine Light. Those who are identified with this natural corrupt existence, as opposed to the spiritual pure existence, will experience the Unmitigated Light of Radiant Eternity as a consuming fire. Not to be imagined as 'flames' mind you. The ancients knew only fire and lightening besides the heat of the sun. We know Laser light, fission light, fusion light. The point is that we are like 3 stage rockets, with materialists falling back to Earth like the 1st stage to be consumed in the atmosphere, as with the psychic people in stage two who identify themselves with thought. It is only the 3rd stage that leaves the downward, fiery end for the panorama of space and the nebulosities of the heavens.



I am well aware that Hell exists in many religions. That does not make it any more real.

Quote:

Analogies only go so far. Salvation is a psychospiritual process in which one comes to acknowledge a new psychospiritual Center to one's psychospiritual existence. It is not the ego which is the center of one's psychophysical life (mind-body or soul). It is a higher Center. It now Governs one's life. One 'bows' to the Guidance of Divine Compassion and one surrenders one's ego to it. When selfish desires arise, they are sacrificed to the Higher law of Love and Compassion. This is mortification of the flesh, crucifixion of one's ego, and a yielding to the Living Presence of God Who now is the Pilot of one's inner life, and the ego the co-pilot, instead of the other way around. You cannot understand this until you have lived it for a while. Living it, is The Way.



So...to find this "Higher Center," must I accept Jesus Christ as my savior?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Hillbillie]
    #1983199 - 10/06/03 06:35 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Hillbillie said:
That's a pretty shitty thing to say, I think. You probably mean no offense, but still are you that arrogant to assume your beliefs somehow fall under a better reasoning system than his?




I honestly don't believe that my beliefs are more reasonable than other beliefs. However, if someone believes that the Sun is purple, they are entitled to that belief, but that does not mean that I can't shake my head at that in dismay, right?

There is only One Truth, by the way. One Truth, and different interpretations of it. No one actually knows that their interpretation is the correct one. And everyone has a different interpretation. My interpretation sort of shows me how everyone comes about their beliefs and so forth, and when people hold onto certain beliefs that are not their own, rather, they were forced into believing them by forms of mind control, it really sticks out.

So, we are entitled to believe whatever we want. This is true. Myself, I tend to transcend a lot of unnecessary beliefs and structures, including organized religion... I can find it all out on my own, as I am continously doing. No one else has to make me believe in some idea that is not my own and that has no true merit except for the fufillment of ego..
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1983299 - 10/06/03 09:25 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

You do not want Hell to become Real for you. Perhaps you need a taste. It isn't something I want. This may be why people go to horror films - to be horrified and contemplate Hell at a safe distance like Dante in 'The Inferno.'

I came to Realize why martyred Christian theologian Dietrich Bonhoeffer titled his book 'Christ the Center.' I cannot make that decision for you. The 'Son' is at the Center of my psychospiritual 'Solar System.' The chakra centers of motivation are created, sustained and guided by this Center which is infinitely more Aware than I am. The Center is more than an 'It,' and more than a '[S]He.' Christ is Transpersonal and Transcendental. My life has been enriched on ALL levels since making the decision 'Yea.'


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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