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Offlinehongomon
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1967567 - 09/30/03 10:41 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

What's the Nietschze quote?


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Anonymous

Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1967579 - 09/30/03 10:45 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Do you think he's any more a true Christian than any other person claiming to be Christian?

from what i can gleam from his posts, he is, without a doubt, moreso than most.

I still stand by that Nietzche quote.

would you apply it to other spiritual paths?

the buddha was the last real buddhist? lao-tzu (or chuang-tzu?) was the last true taoist? muhammad the last real muslim?

the quote sounds neat and all... it really does... but really... what is it getting at?


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Anonymous

Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Zahid]
    #1967641 - 09/30/03 11:03 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

So, indeed manipulation is the key word; which goes to show the followers of any particular doctrine do not represent the tenets of that doctrine/religion. Agree?

yes but, you don't believe that your religion stands for something in particular... lets say violence. now the same followers of your religion will say the complete opposite and will use violence as a justified means for whatever purpose.



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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: ]
    #1967677 - 09/30/03 11:11 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
Do you think he's any more a true Christian than any other person claiming to be Christian?

from what i can gleam from his posts, he is, without a doubt, moreso than most.



I agree with him on a lot of things, and he has an interesting perspective, but that doesn't make him a true Christian.

Quote:

I still stand by that Nietzche quote.

would you apply it to other spiritual paths?

the buddha was the last real buddhist? lao-tzu (or chuang-tzu?) was the last true taoist? muhammad the last real muslim?



Yes to all those questions.

Quote:

the quote sounds neat and all... it really does... but really... what is it getting at?



That categorizing one's beliefs is bullshit and you should think for yourself.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess

Registered: 02/13/99
Posts: 1,617
Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1967682 - 09/30/03 11:13 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I am not branding all into some. Here was the quote I responded to: "Only the true word could last 2000 years." I was pointing out that much of those 2000 years consisted of atrocities being committed by people in the name of the so-called "true word." Christianity did not survive for 2000 years because it is the "true word." It survived for 2000 years because it could be manipulated by people to serve their own selfish ends.

Opinion noted.


Paul never met Jesus in the flesh. He supposedly had a "vision."

Your God sure doesnt sound very powerful if he cant even come to someone in a vision.. How the hell do you know of this God of yours.. btw?

Fine, accept that if you will, if you will accept the vision I had on a high dose of mushrooms where I realized we are all God and that all is one.

Oh, in a vision? Fancy that.

As for John, if you are referring to the Gospel according to John, that the last Gospel to be written. John the apostle would not have lived long enough to have written that. As for the others, I'm not aware of their writings telling the story of Jesus's life(and therefore they are not Gospel writers).

Umm.. Id beg to differ. Even at the end of the spectrum.. it is believe that John 1, 2, 3 and the Gospel of John where written from 90-120 AD. John was just a babe when Jesus ascended. He very easily could have lived long enough even to satisfy the outer spectrum of what some consider the time span. Some also think that there was a purpose that he who was closest of all the disciples to Jesus, he who laid his head on the Lord's chest and listened to his heart.. who stood in the inner circle.. wrote his Gospel last to unfold the works of others.. to make plain of their teachings.

Oh, and the word Gospel means "good news" and there are many gospels mentioned throughout the bible. The gospel of the kingdom, salvation, peace, jesus, circumcision, grace.. etc, etc. In the apocrypha there are many more that come after John.. Mary, James.. Phillip.. the Savior... ect.

Paul taught a gospel of forgiveness and redemption.

Etc. Etc. Etc.



No, they didn't teach me that there were only four gospels. They taught me that there are four officially recognized gospels in the New Testament, as well as the Pauline letters and other letters, plus the Book of Revelation. They also taught me about the apocryphal writings, which I'm glad you've read. Now let me ask you this: Do you accept the apocryphal writings as the infallible word of God, as you do with the other 4 gospels?
Nope. I dont. As illustrated in my last post and my explanation of why.


Ah, the whole "God wouldn't let us be decieved" theory. If God wouldn't let us be decieved, then how do you explain the fossil record, since you denounce evolution?

How do I explain that there is a fossil record? On the 5th and 6th day the Lord created other life, not just humans.. he created fish and birds and animals. One of the Lord's days isnt nessecarily 24 hours. I dont denounce evolution.. I think that as beings we do evolve: physically, spiritually and mentally. I think that animals and fish do indeed evolve.. they adapt as well. I just denounce that we evolved from some mysterious amino acid/astroid/fusion/sea fissures/ insert your scientific belief. Have you looked at your body? There are somethings in our body that scientists still cant fully explain what they do. Remember, tonsills-- yank em out.. appendixes? You dont need em..
Our body is an amazingly complex thing. I mean, hell.. just take your liver.. a liver is capable of filtering toxins out of our body.. I mean, with the food we eat and the air we breathe there is no reason why we should be able to even exist.. but this amazing organ is able to somehow seperate toxins and send them on the correct paths out of the body. That's just one part of an amazingly complex system that I just do not believe "evolved" from a single cell. All of those "theories" have yet to have reproduced this.. Perhaps they created some life.. some bacteria, some virus.. whatever.. but they sure havent been able to create anything remotely humanlike. And you can say.. well over billions of years... it will do this or that, but honestly, nobody knows what it will do in billions of years. They have theories. We cant even create humans outside of the body and nurture them to existance when we have an egg and a sperm. I believe life is a miracle, not some random chance. It's a gift given by someone more omnipotent then we are.

Im also not saying that the Lord would not let us be decieved. Obviously, in my opinion, you have been decieved, be it by your teachers or Satan, or whatever... even though I acknowledge that the Bible is the word of God you dont have to read it.. you dont have to believe it.. It, just like anything, can be misinterpreted.. people can teach things that are not true. People can quote scriptures out of context. If you have ill intent in your heart, you may even be able to justify it by preverting portions of the Bible. I'm simply saying that he has given us everything we need to know him. He has taken out all of the questionable elements.. boiled it down to the simplest common denominator. I dont need to read the apocrypha to know him. It's all right there. Maybe the apocrycha can help me to more understand the ways of man, the roots of sin, the gift of forgiveness and redemption.. but it is a "additional reading" at best.


How do you explain the way the Bible has been manipulated to justify things like slavery and the witch-hunts? Surely almighty God wouldn't allow such things to happen...

God gave us Free Will. We can do whatever we wish with his word. Again, we can prevert it.. we can slander it.. we can do what we want. He doesnt prevent or allow us to do anything.. we have FREE WILL. He gave us guidelines.. if he forced us to follow them then we wouldnt even be having this discussion right now and the greatness of his love and glory would be denied.


Yet Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were infallible? Just because a group of powerful bishops decided they were the only acceptable Gospels? They chose them because they didn't undermine their authority.
Are Mark, Matthew, Luke and John consistant? Then look at the "Gospel of Thomas"- is it a lone wolf.. contridicted in many different books of the Bible? Not just a single solitary one? Please tell me exactly what Mark, Matthew, Luke and John say that ruffle your feathers so much.. what do they say that these powerful bishops are so benefitted by? They say.. screw the Pharisees... screw the tax collectors...you dont have to wash your hands to be my child, you dont have to be circumcized.. poopoo on the some of the old stupid traditions...You dont have to kill animals and offer them to me, it's okay.. Sabbath? Would you let a man die, just because it was the Sabbath? That's retarded!-- (These are my wordings, of course)

And how do you know Jesus didn't say that?
Because repeatedly in many other books of the Bible he does not say that. he says quite the opposite.

Maybe he was a mysogynist.You don't know for a fact that he wasn't.
Now you are just arging to argue. Again the same Bible verse as last time


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Anonymous

Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1967686 - 09/30/03 11:14 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Looner, what country do you live in? Cause Im sure I can give you a huge list of atrocities carried out in the name of your country and it's people.. death, destruction.. all of it. So, by that token, that makes you as a part of that society.. as a "whatever"ican or -ean akin to your theory on Christianity, your people have done horrible things in the name of your country. So therefore, every law that your country was founded upon and every reason for its creation must be a lie. It must be wrong..

don't make the assumption that because of where i was born, means that i adopt the values of that country and agree with the atrocities that have been carried out. i am very aware at the horrible things against humanity that country's carry out.

BUT... lets not forget the wonderful saying that goes along with every countries slogan before they go off to war... "God Bless Our Troops", now tell me how does that saying affect you as christian, are you disgusted by it? because i am (even though i am not a christian), the very fact that christians bring god as a motivational speaker for their wars makes me discredit the vast followers of the said religion as mere sheep.... i'm sure there are others who aren't so easily gullible, but the brainwashing power is there, and i find that VERY dangerous.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1967724 - 09/30/03 11:24 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

PsiloKitten said:
I wish that all of you who claimed such open mindedness could really stop sterotyping. I mean, fuck, Ive never seen a christian on these boards Judge you. They may state their opinion. But person after person.. you have no respect and yet you gripe about christians.. I mean, come on people.. can nobody see the humor in that? I see the crap in christians in glass houses throwing stones. But look at the constant nonrespect of a person's beliefs if they are Christian. People will specifically start threads, ask questions.. instigate.. when they have no desire to know anything.. when they have no desire to UNDERSTAND Christianity.. but just to tell Christians how wrong they are and what sheep they are. Well, he is my shepard and I'm very thankful to be a sheep in his flock. How can you not see that you are just preaching and creating the same intolerance that you claim exists in Christianity. I just dont understand how you cannot see that.



I have no beef with Christianity itself. My grandfather, a Christian(tho a very liberal one), is the wisest man I've ever known. Anyway, you confuse questioning with judging. It is not hateful to ask questions. No belief should be accepted without question. As reasoning beings, we can, and should question everything.

Quote:

It's truly maddening. How can your eyes be open when you have no respect for opinions other then yours?



I respect your opinions, but I disagree with them. I have the right to disagree, don't I?

Quote:

I mean, that's cool and all.. if that's how you want to be.. but look at the hypocrisy in it.



I'm only asking you to examine your beliefs, just as Buddha(the spiritual founder of my religion) told his followers to do.

Quote:

I'd love to start a thread where you guys honestly answered a question:

What is it in you that created to such hatred and dislike for Christianity? What happened in your life? Did some preacher tell you that you were damned? Did some TV evangelist rub you the wrong way? Did you have issues with ultra conservative parents?... But those honest answers would never come out. It would degrade into some constant bashing. I hope that some day a true Christian asks all of you that question in person, where you cant hide behind screens and misconceptions.. and I hope that they can help you to honestly see what it is exactly that you are really denying.. God, Guilt or misconception.



I don't like certain aspects of Christianity, but I don't hate Christianity itself. I don't like the fact that so many Christians act like their favorite book is more valid than the findings of science. I don't like the belief that your religion is the only true religion and that anyone who doesn't blindly accept it will go Hell. That's basically blackmail, and I don't appreciate it. Nevertheless, I have great respect for Jesus, and I believe there is a lot of truth in his teachings. I do believe that he was God in the flesh, but then again, I believe we all are. I have great respect for Christians who put their beliefs under critical analysis and question them, and, if necessary, get rid of those beliefs which don't logically make sense. I respect Christians who don't blindly accept things just because they're written in the Bible. I respect Christians who are open-minded about other beliefs. Unfortunately, such Christians are extremely rare.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Registered: 02/13/99
Posts: 1,617
Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: hongomon]
    #1967770 - 09/30/03 11:37 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

PsiloKitten, your question isn't a fair question. Why is it that critics of Christianity necessarily hate Christianity? Is that how it is for anyone who is critical of anything?

Im sorry that you dont feel my question is fair. You can be a critic of Christianity all you want.. I respect that, truly.. I do.. I think it is good to question and find for yourself. But there is a difference when your mind is completely closed and a point that it comes to when it does become hatred and rudeness and I truly feel if you look at some of the posts in this forum in this thread as well as other threads relating to Christianity that many step over that line. Perhaps I am thin skinned.. but it has always confused me as to why someone has asked a question of a person that they obvoiously arent then proceeded to fight with them about their opinions in that faith. I also dont understand why someone would want to refer to someone's god as an asshole God. I just think it's kinda rude. I dont think you have to tell someone they are wrong and why we cant just share opinions.. and answer questions. I mean, because honestly.. when it all boils down to it, all each of us has is our own faith, not fact.

I dont feel persecuted as a Christian, because most people dont even seem to know what a Christian is.. I feel often persecuted as a preconcived notion.. a stereotype.


Now you as a Christian may be pretty good at living and letting live, but as a doctrine Christianity isn't so good at that.

I have my faults, like anyone else. I just continue to keep trying. Everyone should try to not attack or demonize others.. Christians and nonchristians.

Besides, wouldn't it be a whole lot easier to emulate Christ without trying to figure out the scriptures? As you said, there are faults in the verses in which "one questions if this is truly the word of Jesus or the error of man"--
I believe I said that I questioned the Gospel of Thomas's last verse.. not the scriptures. But I understand the point you are trying to make.. But I dont understand how one can emulate Christ if they dont read the scriptures....We can emulate ideas of Christ.. but where are we supposed to learn of Christ? In the Bible it says, Romans 1:20 "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." So, yes, I do believe that we can come to know God without the Bible.. but, how do we come to know Christ?


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: ]
    #1967798 - 09/30/03 11:45 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

don't make the assumption that because of where i was born, means that i adopt the values of that country and agree with the atrocities that have been carried out. i am very aware at the horrible things against humanity that country's carry out.

But, Looner, cannot you not recognize that that ideal is the same thought as lumping all Christians together? I dont agree with the crusades either.. I dont agree with slavery

BUT... lets not forget the wonderful saying that goes along with every countries slogan before they go off to war... "God Bless Our Troops", now tell me how does that saying affect you as christian, are you disgusted by it?

See, Im not disgusted by the saying. I ask that God Bless our troops, the iraqis, the children, the animals, etc.. every day... I ask that he bless everyone and everything. I am disgusted by the exclusivity of that saying. I am disgusted that somehow someone thinks that someone else's life is better or more worth blessing then any other life. I agree with you.. I was physically ill after I watched Powell and Rumsfeld recite their Bible verses on the Sept. 11th anniversary. I was so mad and upset and pissed off that I could barely see straight. I dislike greatly that so much good is often twisted into true perversion. I also disagree with the doctrines of Christian's who do not think for themselves. They allow others to taint their views... they are lazy and they arent any closer to God then an Aetheist (sp? Its been alot of typing today)


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Registered: 02/13/99
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1967843 - 09/30/03 11:59 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

If all that is true, it can be seen a bit negatively to refer to someone's idea of god as an "asshole God".. just an fyi

I respect your opinions, but I disagree with them. I have the right to disagree, don't I?

It saddens me when one cant disagree respectfully. Again, if I misinterpreted your words, that is my fault.

I'm only asking you to examine your beliefs, just as Buddha(the spiritual founder of my religion) told his followers to do.
And friend, that's what Im also asking you to do. It seems as if we have the same purpose. My question is just.. if you dont care to try and understand the view of a Christian on a topic close to their hearts.. if you obviously have your mind already completely made up and the Bible and Christianity and faith is all wrong.. why ask the question?

Can you not see as a student of Buddhism the parallels? As a Christian, I can see the paralells in Buddhism. And.. you are an evolutionist Buddhist? Interesting. It sounds like you are taking bits and peices from many places and forming the religion of you. That is great. But this is the religion that I believe, you know.. just because someone believes doesnt mean they are a sheep... it doesnt mean they havent questioned... it doesnt mean that they dont possess logic. It means that something struck them in their heart. Something made sense to them. It called to them... and just because it is wrong for you, it doesnt make it wrong...

In closing, be gentle with people.. there is no need to be so combative and as I read back.. angry.. Im sorry, this is how I feel.. We can disagree without being disagreeable. And Im not just speaking to you. Infact, that message is directed only 5% towards you, okay?


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Edited by PsiloKitten (10/01/03 12:03 AM)


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OfflineDoctorJ
"Nazi, Satanist Anti-Christ"
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1967845 - 09/30/03 11:59 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

That categorizing one's beliefs is bullshit and you should think for yourself.




I guess I have my own religion

Dr J-ism

heheh

I said "Jism"


--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


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OfflineFunguy
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1967865 - 10/01/03 12:05 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

PsiloKitten said:
Zahid said: "Humans do bad things."

That pretty much sums that whole arguement up. Wether they do it in the name of God, Mc Donalds, a dog named Sam.. HUMANS do bad things. That is a choice we can make. We can choose to do good with our knowledge or evil.




This is really what I meant. It is under the humans' false assumptions of Christianity that horrible acts have been commited. You should not judge a whole religion based on what certain individuals do.
But what about the good acts of Christianity? How come nobody ever wants to focus on that? Christian organizations send thousands of dollars worth of supplies and workforce to other areas. My church does local missions, from building construction to feeding the homeless. We also send a team of workers once a year to Ecuador for missions work as well.
If you want to judge a religion, you cannot just focus on the bad aspects of the people who supposedly practice it.
I do not think there is such a thing as true atheism. There is no actual way to prove whether or not God actually exists. I base my beliefs on life experiences and studying the Bible, not just reading it.


--------------------

OTD UNDERDOGS

Is attention your retarded heroin?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1967888 - 10/01/03 12:09 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

PsiloKitten said:
Paul never met Jesus in the flesh. He supposedly had a "vision."

Your God sure doesnt sound very powerful if he cant even come to someone in a vision.. How the hell do you know of this God of yours.. btw?



Excuse me? Where did I say he couldn't come to someone in a vision?

Quote:

Fine, accept that if you will, if you will accept the vision I had on a high dose of mushrooms where I realized we are all God and that all is one.

Oh, in a vision? Fancy that.



See above comment.

Quote:

As for John, if you are referring to the Gospel according to John, that the last Gospel to be written. John the apostle would not have lived long enough to have written that. As for the others, I'm not aware of their writings telling the story of Jesus's life(and therefore they are not Gospel writers).

Umm.. Id beg to differ. Even at the end of the spectrum.. it is believe that John 1, 2, 3 and the Gospel of John where written from 90-120 AD. John was just a babe when Jesus ascended. He very easily could have lived long enough even to satisfy the outer spectrum of what some consider the time span. Some also think that there was a purpose that he who was closest of all the disciples to Jesus, he who laid his head on the Lord's chest and listened to his heart.. who stood in the inner circle.. wrote his Gospel last to unfold the works of others.. to make plain of their teachings.



Ok, are you talking about John the apostle, or John the Gospel writer? Obviously John the apostle couldn't have just been a baby when Jesus died.

Quote:

Oh, and the word Gospel means "good news" and there are many gospels mentioned throughout the bible. The gospel of the kingdom, salvation, peace, jesus, circumcision, grace.. etc, etc. In the apocrypha there are many more that come after John.. Mary, James.. Phillip.. the Savior... ect.



Ok, if you want to take thing literally, then yes, you have a point. I was referring to the books that started with "The Gospel According to..."

Quote:

Ah, the whole "God wouldn't let us be decieved" theory. If God wouldn't let us be decieved, then how do you explain the fossil record, since you denounce evolution?

How do I explain that there is a fossil record? On the 5th and 6th day the Lord created other life, not just humans.. he created fish and birds and animals. One of the Lord's days isnt nessecarily 24 hours. I dont denounce evolution.. I think that as beings we do evolve: physically, spiritually and mentally. I think that animals and fish do indeed evolve.. they adapt as well. I just denounce that we evolved from some mysterious amino acid/astroid/fusion/sea fissures/ insert your scientific belief. Have you looked at your body? There are somethings in our body that scientists still cant fully explain what they do. Remember, tonsills-- yank em out.. appendixes? You dont need em..
Our body is an amazingly complex thing. I mean, hell.. just take your liver.. a liver is capable of filtering toxins out of our body.. I mean, with the food we eat and the air we breathe there is no reason why we should be able to even exist.. but this amazing organ is able to somehow seperate toxins and send them on the correct paths out of the body. That's just one part of an amazingly complex system that I just do not believe "evolved" from a single cell. All of those "theories" have yet to have reproduced this.. Perhaps they created some life.. some bacteria, some virus.. whatever.. but they sure havent been able to create anything remotely humanlike. And you can say.. well over billions of years... it will do this or that, but honestly, nobody knows what it will do in billions of years. They have theories. We cant even create humans outside of the body and nurture them to existance when we have an egg and a sperm. I believe life is a miracle, not some random chance. It's a gift given by someone more omnipotent then we are.




Theories are more than just guesses. They are explanations for observable phenomenon. The fossil record indicates that there are different species which have long since ceased to exist, some of which(like our homonid ancestors such as Homo Erectus) are genetically closer to us than any living animal.

Quote:

Im also not saying that the Lord would not let us be decieved. Obviously, in my opinion, you have been decieved, be it by your teachers or Satan, or whatever... even though I acknowledge that the Bible is the word of God you dont have to read it.. you dont have to believe it.. It, just like anything, can be misinterpreted.. people can teach things that are not true. People can quote scriptures out of context. If you have ill intent in your heart, you may even be able to justify it by preverting portions of the Bible. I'm simply saying that he has given us everything we need to know him. He has taken out all of the questionable elements.. boiled it down to the simplest common denominator. I dont need to read the apocrypha to know him. It's all right there. Maybe the apocrycha can help me to more understand the ways of man, the roots of sin, the gift of forgiveness and redemption.. but it is a "additional reading" at best.



So you think God would allow Bible verses supporting slavery(Leviticus 25:44) and the death penalty for violating the Sabbath(Exodus 35:2), yet you think he'd interfere with a bunch of Bishops deciding which books should go in the New Testament, and which ones shouldn't? Remember, they were men of power, and had a vested interest in not including any writings which might undermine their authority(such as the Gospel of Thomas).

Quote:

How do you explain the way the Bible has been manipulated to justify things like slavery and the witch-hunts? Surely almighty God wouldn't allow such things to happen...

God gave us Free Will. We can do whatever we wish with his word. Again, we can prevert it.. we can slander it.. we can do what we want. He doesnt prevent or allow us to do anything.. we have FREE WILL. He gave us guidelines.. if he forced us to follow them then we wouldnt even be having this discussion right now and the greatness of his love and glory would be denied.



So do you not believe that the authors of the Bible also had free will? How do you know they had the message right? Either they had free will or they were tools of God. You can't have it both ways.

Quote:

Yet Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were infallible? Just because a group of powerful bishops decided they were the only acceptable Gospels? They chose them because they didn't undermine their authority.
Are Mark, Matthew, Luke and John consistant? Then look at the "Gospel of Thomas"- is it a lone wolf.. contridicted in many different books of the Bible? Not just a single solitary one? Please tell me exactly what Mark, Matthew, Luke and John say that ruffle your feathers so much.. what do they say that these powerful bishops are so benefitted by? They say.. screw the Pharisees... screw the tax collectors...you dont have to wash your hands to be my child, you dont have to be circumcized.. poopoo on the some of the old stupid traditions...You dont have to kill animals and offer them to me, it's okay.. Sabbath? Would you let a man die, just because it was the Sabbath? That's retarded!-- (These are my wordings, of course)



First of all, moder scholars believe that Matthew and Luke were using the same two sources(Mark and a mysterious "Q source"). The Gospel of John is very different, and tells the events of Jesus' life in a different order. Also, how did Judas kill himself? Did he hang himself(Matthew 27:5) or did he jump from a high place(Acts 1:18)?

Quote:

And how do you know Jesus didn't say that?
Because repeatedly in many other books of the Bible he does not say that. he says quite the opposite.



Where does he say the opposite of that. It is true that no other Gospels mention it, but what Bible verses contradict it? Even if you can answer that, the Bible still contradicts itself on some parts.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1967930 - 10/01/03 12:23 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

PsiloKitten said:
It saddens me when one cant disagree respectfully. Again, if I misinterpreted your words, that is my fault.



And it saddens me that you think I was being disrespectful. I was merely attempting to make a skeptical inquiry into your beliefs to see if they hold up.

Quote:

I'm only asking you to examine your beliefs, just as Buddha(the spiritual founder of my religion) told his followers to do.
And friend, that's what Im also asking you to do. It seems as if we have the same purpose. My question is just.. if you dont care to try and understand the view of a Christian on a topic close to their hearts.. if you obviously have your mind already completely made up and the Bible and Christianity and faith is all wrong.. why ask the question?



What makes you think I don't care to understand your view? If I didn't care, I wouldn't ask all these questions. And what makes you think I have my mind completely made up? I am open to all possibilities. I am not saying that the Bible and Christianity have it all wrong(though there are some aspects that contradict science, as well as my ideas of morality and the structure of the universe). I just believe in skeptical inquiry.

Quote:

Can you not see as a student of Buddhism the parallels? As a Christian, I can see the paralells in Buddhism. And.. you are an evolutionist Buddhist? Interesting. It sounds like you are taking bits and peices from many places and forming the religion of you. That is great. But this is the religion that I believe, you know.. just because someone believes doesnt mean they are a sheep... it doesnt mean they havent questioned... it doesnt mean that they dont possess logic. It means that something struck them in their heart. Something made sense to them. It called to them... and just because it is wrong for you, it doesnt make it wrong...



I don't believe I ever said you were a sheep, and if I did, I'm sorry. The reason I talk about unquestioning belief is because you and many other Christians keep talking about how it is good to not see and still believe, which sounds to me like following blindly without questioning things. By the way, though I call myself a Buddhist, I don't follow all the teachings of Buddha just because he said them. I just happen to have personal beliefs, which I arrived at indepently, which coincide with Buddhism. To believe something without question just because some book or person says so is foolish.

Quote:

In closing, be gentle with people.. there is no need to be so combative and as I read back.. angry.. Im sorry, this is how I feel.. We can disagree without being disagreeable. And Im not just speaking to you. Infact, that message is directed only 5% towards you, okay?



Understand that I am not angry with you, or Christianity. What angers me is when people think that to question someone's beliefs is to be hateful towards them.


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1968130 - 10/01/03 01:26 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

John, 1John, 2John, and 3John as well as Revelations were written by the same person.. John the apostle.

Yes, John was the babe of the apostles.. He as very young. It is generally believed that he was just in his teens to early 20s when he came to be an apostle. He died in 101, his tomb is now covered by a mosque.


So you think God would allow Bible verses supporting slavery(Leviticus 25:44) and the death penalty for violating the Sabbath(Exodus 35:2), yet you think he'd interfere with a bunch of Bishops deciding which books should go in the New Testament, and which ones shouldn't? Remember, they were men of power, and had a vested interest in not including any writings which might undermine their authority(such as the Gospel of Thomas).

Have you read the NT? You should try it. Again, MEN HAVE FREE WILL. Why must you believe that man is evil and cannot do right and good? You sound like you have a pretty bum opinion of people. Again, I ask just what in the NT is so bad and contrary and so beneficial to the Bishops.. again, I ask in the "Gospel of THomas" what is so damaging to the Bishops?

So do you not believe that the authors of the Bible also had free will? How do you know they had the message right? Either they had free will or they were tools of God. You can't have it both ways.

So, men are incapable of being good and doing right all by themselves?

First of all, moder scholars believe that Matthew and Luke were using the same two sources(Mark and a mysterious "Q source"). The Gospel of John is very different, and tells the events of Jesus' life in a different order. Also, how did Judas kill himself? Did he hang himself(Matthew 27:5) or did he jump from a high place(Acts 1:18)?

Not all modern scholars believe that. Yes, some do.
Matthew tells us exactly how Judas died. Acts tells us that his body fell and was broke open. It doesnt say that is how he died. They arent exclusive. Of course, there are many different opinions on this one. Infact, this is a good example of something that information can be gleaned from the apochrypha regarding.


Where does he say the opposite of that.
You admit, to you.. there is no point in even answering that question.


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1968133 - 10/01/03 01:29 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Understand that I am not angry with you, or Christianity. What angers me is when people think that to question someone's beliefs is to be hateful towards them.

And it angers me when someone refers to my beliefs as an "asshole God". I believe blaphemy of the news (the holy spirit) and the word is pretty serious stuff.

The reason I talk about unquestioning belief is because you and many other Christians keep talking about how it is good to not see and still believe, which sounds to me like following blindly without questioning things.

When do I say that it is good to not see, to blindly believe? I dont. I just said that what we need to believe is right there.. it has been given to us. If you cant see it then, that is your perogative.


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1968143 - 10/01/03 01:33 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

And it angers me when someone refers to my beliefs as an "asshole God". I believe blaphemy of the news (the holy spirit) and the word is pretty serious stuff.




so if WE'RE the ones doing it, why is it your concern?



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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1968174 - 10/01/03 01:45 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

PsiloKitten said:
John, 1John, 2John, and 3John as well as Revelations were written by the same person.. John the apostle.

Yes, John was the babe of the apostles.. He as very young. It is generally believed that he was just in his teens to early 20s when he came to be an apostle. He died in 101, his tomb is now covered by a mosque.




My understanding, from what I've been taught, is that the Gospel of John was written somewhere around 100 AD or later. Modern scholars generally reject the idea that its author was in fact John the apostle. Remember that John was a common name back then.

Quote:

So you think God would allow Bible verses supporting slavery(Leviticus 25:44) and the death penalty for violating the Sabbath(Exodus 35:2), yet you think he'd interfere with a bunch of Bishops deciding which books should go in the New Testament, and which ones shouldn't? Remember, they were men of power, and had a vested interest in not including any writings which might undermine their authority(such as the Gospel of Thomas).

Have you read the NT? You should try it. Again, MEN HAVE FREE WILL. Why must you believe that man is evil and cannot do right and good? You sound like you have a pretty bum opinion of people. Again, I ask just what in the NT is so bad and contrary and so beneficial to the Bishops.. again, I ask in the "Gospel of THomas" what is so damaging to the Bishops?



I have read large portions of the New Testament, particularly Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. These books talk about the life and message of Jesus, which I generally agree with. Nowhere have I said that people are inherently evil. I just don't think the writers of either the New or Old Testament were infallible, since they were, afterall, only human. Same with the bishops at the Nicene Council. I'm sure many of them had good intentions, but they were basically trying to force their version of Christianity on the whole of Christendom. As for the Gospel of Thomas, I admit I have not read it, but from what I've gathered(Markos, if you're reading this, help me out here), it undermines the Church's authority and places the authority in the individual.

Quote:

So do you not believe that the authors of the Bible also had free will? How do you know they had the message right? Either they had free will or they were tools of God. You can't have it both ways.

So, men are incapable of being good and doing right all by themselves?



Sure they're capable of being good and doing right. That doesn't mean they're infallible. You can be a good person and still not be right about everything.

Quote:

First of all, moder scholars believe that Matthew and Luke were using the same two sources(Mark and a mysterious "Q source"). The Gospel of John is very different, and tells the events of Jesus' life in a different order. Also, how did Judas kill himself? Did he hang himself(Matthew 27:5) or did he jump from a high place(Acts 1:18)?

Not all modern scholars believe that. Yes, some do.
Matthew tells us exactly how Judas died. Acts tells us that his body fell and was broke open. It doesnt say that is how he died. They arent exclusive. Of course, there are many different opinions on this one. Infact, this is a good example of something that information can be gleaned from the apochrypha regarding.




It is true that Acts does not say that is how he died, but it can be inferred from the text. Are we to believe that after he hung himself that someone carried his corpse off somewhere and threw it off of a high place(I hope you realize how far you'd have to fall to spill your intestines)? You can find a wealth of Biblical contradictions here.

Quote:

Where does he say the opposite of that.
You admit, to you.. there is no point in even answering that question.



Why is that? I'm merely asking you to back up one of your claims.


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1968602 - 10/01/03 04:19 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

You are responding to me and including my words as a justification for your blasphemy. That is why it concerns me. In the specific instances I have cited and you quoted.


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1968670 - 10/01/03 04:54 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

And some scholars thinks Mary Magdelene was the true writer of the Gospel of John.. and that's great, Im glad they have their opinions.

I do wish you's stop lumping modern scholars together and saying that they do this or that.. cause it is simply not true. Some have one opinion, some have others.. just like ancient scholars. From what I have been taught during my fun and exciting 10 years of catholic school and preceeding 11 years of personal reading and quest has been that there are many ideas on when these books were written.. anywhere from 60-120 AD... at 120 AD it would dictate that those folks dont believe that John wrote the books.. at 60 AD it would dictate that those folks do believe that John wrote the books.

John was indeed a common name back then and judging from your last post you had it a bit confused since you questioned my stating that that John, 1John, 2 John and 3 John had been written by the same person and that he was very young.. even refered to as a "babe" in various writings. Personally, John is my favorite book of the Bible, I've studied it pretty comprehensively, though Im sure I still have much to learn.. and I remember how much confusion I had between the baptist.. was the revelator and the epistle writer the same as the gospel writer? etc.



I have read large portions of the New Testament, particularly Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. These books talk about the life and message of Jesus, which I generally agree with. Nowhere have I said that people are inherently evil. I just don't think the writers of either the New or Old Testament were infallible, since they were, afterall, only human. Same with the bishops at the Nicene Council. I'm sure many of them had good intentions, but they were basically trying to force their version of Christianity on the whole of Christendom. As for the Gospel of Thomas, I admit I have not read it, but from what I've gathered(Markos, if you're reading this, help me out here), it undermines the Church's authority and places the authority in the individual.

I dont think you are fully comprehending what Jesus said about the Church. He doesnt say that the church has to exist in a physical being.. his body is the Church.. Jesus' teachings are in a large portion quite contrary, even in the NT canon to organized religion. I mean, dont you find it kind of interesting that he focused alot of chastizement on the Pharisees?

It is true that Acts does not say that is how he died, but it can be inferred from the text. Are we to believe that after he hung himself that someone carried his corpse off somewhere and threw it off of a high place(I hope you realize how far you'd have to fall to spill your intestines)?
Some believe that his intestines were spilled not because he hung from such a height or because he was thrown from such a high place.. but because his fall came after his death.. Just like current days, when a body dies and bakes in the sun, gasses will form in the abdomen. If that body fell then it would easily rupture spilling intestines. Some people believe that what Peter says in Acts is a metaphor based upon Judas falling from grace and and the bowels, or intestines were, thought the Hebrews, in their unadvanced state of anatomy, where kindness resided. Again, there are many different opinions.. just as many, probably as there are opinions that it negates the whole message of the Bible.


Why is that? I'm merely asking you to back up one of your claims.
Okey dokey.. Let's try it this way. Many Buddhist acknowledge that Jesus traveled to India and studied and taught with them.. Are you familiar with St. Issa? Since this spurs from the religion you claim, Ill just go ahead and focus on that one. I dont dispute that this could very well be the word of Jesus, I cant find anything contridictory to the Bible in it. Im inclined to believe it does indeed chronicle his years between 13 and 29..

At this time, an old woman approached the crowd, but was pushed back. Then Issa said, "Reverence Woman, mother of the universe,' in her lies the truth of creation. She is the foundation of all that is good and beautiful. She is the source of life and death. Upon her depends the existence of man, because she is the sustenance of his labors. She gives birth to you in travail, she watches over your growth. Bless her. Honor her. Defend her. Love your wives and honor them, because tomorrow they shall be mothers, and later-progenitors of a whole race. Their love ennobles man, soothes the embittered heart and tames the beast. Wife and mother-they are the adornments of the universe."

"As light divides itself from darkness, so does woman possess the gift to divide in man good intent from the thought of evil. Your best thoughts must belong to woman. Gather from them your moral strength, which you must possess to sustain your near ones. Do not humiliate her, for therein you will humiliate yourselves. And all which you will do to mother, to wife, to widow or to another woman in sorrow-that shall you also do for the Spirit."

from the Bible, just one contradiction..

There are many and you said yourself.. even if I can find one, the bible is full of .. yadda yadda yadda...(Read your last post) Ephesians 5 :21 -6




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