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OfflineFunguy
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1969905 - 10/01/03 05:57 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Actually, the Bible can be pretty acurate even from a scientific point of view. But you have to remember that when much of it was written (over a period of several thousand years), people did not have the knowledge of science to help them understand. Maybe God did create the the universe in 6 billion years or so, but it says 6 days in the Bible so he would not overload the "early" human brains (I'm kinda just spouting theories here). The Bible mentions the shifting of the continents (Tower of Babel). Many people have actually tried to prove that the Bible was false, but ended up converting to Christianity (Josh McDowell, The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict). You can also go to www.josh.org/apologetics
If anybody would truly like to delve into the research of the Bible, I would be estatic to send you a few of my own personal books for you to read. I no longer have The New Evidence in my collection, because I have already sent it to someone else at this site.
Lets not lets this thread de-evolve into a flaming session. I have no qualms with any of you, and I'm sure you all have none with me. I am merely stating what I believe is to be the Truth. Don't base your assumptions on Christians, but Christ himself, and what HE said.


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OTD UNDERDOGS

Is attention your retarded heroin?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1970046 - 10/01/03 06:54 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

PsiloKitten said:
I have read large portions of the New Testament, particularly Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. These books talk about the life and message of Jesus, which I generally agree with. Nowhere have I said that people are inherently evil. I just don't think the writers of either the New or Old Testament were infallible, since they were, afterall, only human. Same with the bishops at the Nicene Council. I'm sure many of them had good intentions, but they were basically trying to force their version of Christianity on the whole of Christendom. As for the Gospel of Thomas, I admit I have not read it, but from what I've gathered(Markos, if you're reading this, help me out here), it undermines the Church's authority and places the authority in the individual.

I dont think you are fully comprehending what Jesus said about the Church. He doesnt say that the church has to exist in a physical being.. his body is the Church.. Jesus' teachings are in a large portion quite contrary, even in the NT canon to organized religion. I mean, dont you find it kind of interesting that he focused alot of chastizement on the Pharisees?



Very well, then. Even if it wasn't about power, all I'm asking is that you not assume that just because some books were put in the Bible and some weren't that that makes one better than the other. The books that are in the Bible just happen to correspond to the theological views of those in power.

Quote:

It is true that Acts does not say that is how he died, but it can be inferred from the text. Are we to believe that after he hung himself that someone carried his corpse off somewhere and threw it off of a high place(I hope you realize how far you'd have to fall to spill your intestines)?
Some believe that his intestines were spilled not because he hung from such a height or because he was thrown from such a high place.. but because his fall came after his death.. Just like current days, when a body dies and bakes in the sun, gasses will form in the abdomen. If that body fell then it would easily rupture spilling intestines. Some people believe that what Peter says in Acts is a metaphor based upon Judas falling from grace and and the bowels, or intestines were, thought the Hebrews, in their unadvanced state of anatomy, where kindness resided. Again, there are many different opinions.. just as many, probably as there are opinions that it negates the whole message of the Bible.



You are leaving something out. It says he fell headlong, in other words head first. You don't fall head first if you're hanging by your neck in a tree. It doesn't make sense.


Quote:

Why is that? I'm merely asking you to back up one of your claims.
Okey dokey.. Let's try it this way. Many Buddhist acknowledge that Jesus traveled to India and studied and taught with them.. Are you familiar with St. Issa? Since this spurs from the religion you claim, Ill just go ahead and focus on that one. I dont dispute that this could very well be the word of Jesus, I cant find anything contridictory to the Bible in it. Im inclined to believe it does indeed chronicle his years between 13 and 29..

At this time, an old woman approached the crowd, but was pushed back. Then Issa said, "Reverence Woman, mother of the universe,' in her lies the truth of creation. She is the foundation of all that is good and beautiful. She is the source of life and death. Upon her depends the existence of man, because she is the sustenance of his labors. She gives birth to you in travail, she watches over your growth. Bless her. Honor her. Defend her. Love your wives and honor them, because tomorrow they shall be mothers, and later-progenitors of a whole race. Their love ennobles man, soothes the embittered heart and tames the beast. Wife and mother-they are the adornments of the universe."

"As light divides itself from darkness, so does woman possess the gift to divide in man good intent from the thought of evil. Your best thoughts must belong to woman. Gather from them your moral strength, which you must possess to sustain your near ones. Do not humiliate her, for therein you will humiliate yourselves. And all which you will do to mother, to wife, to widow or to another woman in sorrow-that shall you also do for the Spirit."




Very well, but that's not from the Bible. You've merely found one apocryphal writing which contradicts another.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinejoeshitragpicker
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
    #1970068 - 10/01/03 07:05 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Can you really say Christianity is the answer for the entire human race?
Wow. I think you need to wake up. its so so so much bigger than christianity/Jesus/The Bible.


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1970823 - 10/01/03 10:56 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

silver,
You still havent told me just what the books that were not put in the Bible did to challenge the establishment and you specifically said Thomas..

Okey dokey, lets look at Thomas. Did you know that the coptic and greek versions of Thomas differ? Two different versions of the same book.. How to pick which is correct? And on top of that there are 3 Greek versions, all with subtle differences. Here is a webpage with many links to resources, both in support and denying the validity of the Gospel of Thomas:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/thomas.html
When Markos told me of that specific Gospel, I researched it for 3 days straight.. and I definately think it has some positives and corrolates to alot of what is in the Bible, but I do agree with the scholars that there are many holes. However, no matter how hard I read that Gospel, the only possible thing I see that could relate to your claim that corrupt men didnt put it in.. is maybe saying #2 and saying 39, which is the most probable.. but in the Bible Jesus chastizes the false prophets and the Pharisees many times.. this is not the worst of his wrath. #65 talks about how the rich wont enter the kingdom.. but that is said many times.. #100 is similar to the give ceasar what is his and me what is mine..#102 isnt all that crazy and I can find many similar quotes in the Bible.. #114, well.. if the bishops were as horrible as you made them out to be and we all knew the climate of the times wasnt exactly women's empowerment, then why would they leave that out?

St Issa is not from the apocrypha. Buddists recorded that story. I was simply taking something from the religion you said you aspired to. I also told you to check out Ephesians, which is also not apocrypha.

As for falling headlong... If you translate the original Hebrew or the Greek, then you will find that headlong is a debateable translation.. It doesnt appear in my Living Bible either.. It does appear in KJV and NIV, however.. so, how can you discredit that this is a metaphor? Even if the translation was absolute and headlong was the definate.. how can you discount the metaphor?


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1970970 - 10/01/03 11:34 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I've cited this before, several times in fact, and I'll do so again: "Liberating the Gospels: Reading the Bible With Jewish Eyes," by [former] Archbishop John Shelby Spong. Anyone brave enough, and secure enough in their Christian faith should read this brilliant treatise about the Bible. Most Gentile Christians are abysmally ignorant of their Jewish (grafted-in) roots of Judaism, and the meaning of 'midrash' which is crucial for understanding how and why the Gospels were composed.

No one with any real understanding of the constuction and then compilation of the New Testament Gospels would believe that contemporaries of Y'shua penned these stories from eye-witness, modern-minded journalistic accounts. One might as well believe that a newsman from the Bethlehem or Nazareth Gazettes (depending upon the account) was taking notes as an astronomical and astrological anomaly shone down on a manger, illuminating an infant like a 100 Watt bulb. Midrash.

Thomas, around which the film 'Stigmata' was made, is not worth killing over. The film was like 'The Celestine Prophesy' in that respect. Thomas does not hold the 'Vicarious Sacrifice' theology of Paul, in which the Sacrificial Lamb of God cleanses all who believe, 'by faith alone.' Thomas embodies a Realized Eschatology (vs. a partially-realized one, part of which will be realized [made real] IN time - in the future). Thomas instructs us to Realize Christ in the Eternal Present. That Realization constitutes the End Times - the END OF TIME - because we transcend time, and come to live in the Eternal Present, which is the Eternal Presence of Christ. Though not truly Gnostic (no complex cosmology/creation story) Thomas does recognize this Realization as spiritual Knowledge - Immediate Knowledge of Reality, or Gnosis. Faith is thr means of the 'Psychic' level Christian while Gnosis belongs to the 'Pneumatic' level Christian. Psychic Christians can become Pneumatic Christians. Since Paul was clearly wrong about the immanent return of Jesus IN TIME, I am a Thomist Christian. He alledgedly preached in India, and this version is remarkably reminiscent of ancient Indian thought, not to mention psychedelic thought whence originated (Soma) Indian religious thought. NOT that Jesus used psychedelics (mind-manifesting), He WAS Psychedelic. The Logos manifests (creates) through Itself.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1971044 - 10/01/03 11:58 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Markos,
I am indeed currently reading that book, interesting that you brought it up. Perhaps it will illuminate some of the questions I have about Thomas as I have not been able to resolve them through various interpretations that I found online. Im not disagreeing that Thomas is valuable.. just that through studies I do understand why it is not included in the Bible, as I feel there are serious contridictions. I also understand the concept that Thomas, like the remaining parts of the Gospel of Mary, is preaching a more "enlightenment" style view of our ability as man to know God.. My verdict is still open but Im glad to know that this book was a good choice.

On a side note, have you ever visited www.reluctant-messanger.com ? I found it some time ago and it's message seems very much like what Ive seen you post.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1971142 - 10/02/03 12:24 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

PsiloKitten said:
silver,
You still havent told me just what the books that were not put in the Bible did to challenge the establishment and you specifically said Thomas..



Look, talk to Markos about that. He knows more about it than I do.

Quote:

When Markos told me of that specific Gospel, I researched it for 3 days straight.. and I definately think it has some positives and corrolates to alot of what is in the Bible, but I do agree with the scholars that there are many holes. However, no matter how hard I read that Gospel, the only possible thing I see that could relate to your claim that corrupt men didnt put it in.. is maybe saying #2 and saying 39, which is the most probable.. but in the Bible Jesus chastizes the false prophets and the Pharisees many times.. this is not the worst of his wrath. #65 talks about how the rich wont enter the kingdom.. but that is said many times.. #100 is similar to the give ceasar what is his and me what is mine..#102 isnt all that crazy and I can find many similar quotes in the Bible.. #114, well.. if the bishops were as horrible as you made them out to be and we all knew the climate of the times wasnt exactly women's empowerment, then why would they leave that out?



I'm not necessarily saying that the guys who put together the New Testament were corrupt. What I AM saying is that they had their own outlook on Christianity, and they wanted to only put books in there that agreed with their outlook.

Quote:

As for falling headlong... If you translate the original Hebrew or the Greek, then you will find that headlong is a debateable translation.. It doesnt appear in my Living Bible either.. It does appear in KJV and NIV, however.. so, how can you discredit that this is a metaphor? Even if the translation was absolute and headlong was the definate.. how can you discount the metaphor?



Acts talks about him falling headlong and spilling his intestines and then talks about finding a replacement for Judas. It sounds to me like they're talking about a death. Not that it can't have symbolic connotations, just like Jesus' death on the cross has a certain symbolism, but Acts seems to be talking about it in a pretty literal sense.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinecatalyst777
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1971552 - 10/02/03 02:16 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Wow. So much has been said here, I wish I had more time to respond...

I studied several religions before accepting Christ. I wanted to know who God was, what he was like. That's one of the reasons I started experimenting with p. cubensis. The following experience came after several "trips", each one teaching me something about myself and the world.

I actually decided to follow Christ after a mushroom experience on Slide Mountain in the Catskills. I definately wasn't looking to become a Christian, I just wanted to know the truth. During my hiking trips, both in "normal" and altered mindstates, I would constantly pray for God to reveal himself to me, regardless of what the truth might be. I didn't care who or what God was, I just wanted to know the truth.

On the way back down the mountain, I sensed God speaking to my soul. It was so transcendent, it's hard to explain. My heart was filled with an amazing peace and joy, yet at the same time a hint of sorrow. I sensed Jesus calling me to follow Him. He told me I would be hated my many people and persecuted. He also told me I should never fear, as long as I followed Him.

It was a long series of events in my messed up life that brought me to that point. I guess it started in The Red River Gorge in KY. My first wilderness experience. It really instilled a love for nature in me. The more time I spent in the wilderness, the more I believed in a God.

It would take a long time to recount the series of events that has transpired since that time. Just things that defy coincidence. Meeting amazing people in strange places who shared my affection for either God, mushrooms, or cannabis.

Since I decided to follow Christ, my whole outlook on the world has changed. I used to be so self-centered and uncaring. Now, I feel genuine compassion for people. I'm able to love people who I never could before. I've also lost many so-called friends. I never preached to them. They just couldn't deal with my new faith. Oh well...

I think it's an atrocity what people have done and continue to do in the name of Christ. I'm also painfully aware of how judgemental and mean-spirited some Christians can be. I apologize on behalf of all of them. I've been sort of an outcast in the Christian world because of my use of mind expanding substances. That's not Christ's fault, though. So I press on...

I wish you all love and peace. That may sound like a cliche, but I truely mean that.

If you wish to gain insight into what I believe to be true Christianity, I would advise visiting here:

http://resources.christianity.com/ministries/rzim/main/searchItems.jhtml

This guy's not perfect, but sincere and intellegent.


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Facts do not cease to exist just because they are ignored.

Aldous Huxley


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: catalyst777]
    #1971715 - 10/02/03 03:34 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

catalyst,
Your testimony is powerful.

Your story could be my own.. replacing east with west coast mt. ranges :smile:

Thank you so much for sharing it.

Silver,
How can you say that books were excluded because someone didnt want them to be there for reasons contained within them if you have never read the books?  I was taking Thomas as an example.. but we can deconstruct any of them you would like...  I dont understand how you can say these books werent included for the reasons you do.. without reading them and then refer to Markos, isnt that no better then a "christian" that participated in the crusades taking the word of some preacher or king as truth?  Or as a Christian who believes closemindedly as you seem to be "angry" about many doing?

Acts in what translation?  In the original or a translation.. this is what Im getting at.  Also, on an interesting side note about translations.. which actually supports your theory as a buddhist.. check out the wording of Genesis 1:26 and the use of the word "us".  There are alot of things that I cannot explain and dont understand..

In anycase, I think that this has served it's purpose.. you have helped me to find new things to question and investigate.. to figure out my own answers on.  And Im hoping that you, in turn, can see the points Ive tried to make and question, maybe deconstructing and reconstructing your own ideas of Christianity.  I know you will probably roll your eyes at this one, but I honestly believe that someday your path may again cross with Christ and your current journey will aid that meeting.

Shalom, Namaste and all the good stuff :smile:


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Offlinecatalyst777
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1971747 - 10/02/03 03:50 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Psilokitten-I felt an immediate connection to you after reading some of your posts.

The west is truly an amazing place. My wife and I got married on the beach in N. Cali. We now live not *too* far from the west coast. I would love to live in N. Cali, but you know about the $$ aspect...

We are SO ready to move, but not sure where. I need to get back into regular fellowship with God to receive direction.

take care- catalyst



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Facts do not cease to exist just because they are ignored.

Aldous Huxley


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: catalyst777]
    #1971788 - 10/02/03 04:13 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

:heartpump: 


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OfflineFunguy
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1972637 - 10/02/03 01:41 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Catalyst777, I loved your post! :thumbup: :grin:  We must show the outside world that not every Christian is a pompous, self-righteous hypocritical person.  In fact, most TRUE Christians aren't like that.  However, I know many youth at my local church who are trying to straddle between two lives.  While at church or around adults, they act "Christian," but when around friends, they revert to the total opposite of what Christianity means.  I don't mean to pass judgement on anyone, but just saying you are a Christian is totally different from being one.  Anyway, we must continue to show the world Christ's love for them, even if it means we become outcasts.

"For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved." John 3:17


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OTD UNDERDOGS

Is attention your retarded heroin?


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Offlinenubious
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
    #1972717 - 10/02/03 02:19 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Christ didn't die for OUR sins. Christ died for the sins of humans previous to him - (providing he was human.. I have this alien threory but that's another post). OUR Sins are caused by an upbringing in a CHRISTIAN based society (North America). Technically, Christ can be considered the CAUSE of our sins..


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No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1972741 - 10/02/03 02:28 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

PsiloKitten said:
Silver,
How can you say that books were excluded because someone didnt want them to be there for reasons contained within them if you have never read the books?  I was taking Thomas as an example.. but we can deconstruct any of them you would like...  I dont understand how you can say these books werent included for the reasons you do.. without reading them and then refer to Markos, isnt that no better then a "christian" that participated in the crusades taking the word of some preacher or king as truth?  Or as a Christian who believes closemindedly as you seem to be "angry" about many doing?



I admit I do not know enough about the Gospel of Thomas to really be discussing it.  I realize that, and that's why I was referring you to Markos.  BTW, I'm not "angry" at anyone.  I'm just frustrated that people seem to think the Bible is an excuse not to think for themselves.

Quote:

Acts in what translation?  In the original or a translation.. this is what Im getting at.  Also, on an interesting side note about translations.. which actually supports your theory as a buddhist.. check out the wording of Genesis 1:26 and the use of the word "us".  There are alot of things that I cannot explain and dont understand..



I forget which translation, but I'm pretty sure it appears similarly in many translations.

Quote:

In anycase, I think that this has served it's purpose.. you have helped me to find new things to question and investigate.. to figure out my own answers on.  And Im hoping that you, in turn, can see the points Ive tried to make and question, maybe deconstructing and reconstructing your own ideas of Christianity.  I know you will probably roll your eyes at this one, but I honestly believe that someday your path may again cross with Christ and your current journey will aid that meeting.



I'm more open-minded than you think.  I believe Christ did have a role to play in the scheme of this universe, but I think the truth is far more complex than what the Bible would lead you to believe.  The Bible is written language, and language cannot speak the truth.  It can only describe the truth.

Quote:

Shalom, Namaste and all the good stuff :smile: 



Namaste. :sun:


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1972849 - 10/02/03 03:09 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
I'm just frustrated that people seem to think the Bible is an excuse not to think for themselves.





Hehe, right on! :grin:
Peace.


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:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1972924 - 10/02/03 03:34 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Wow, I am amazed.  This thead has over 130 replies... it is about Christianity... and has very few if any flames!!!  Regardless of our individual faith (or lack thereof), the shroomery is a one-of-a-kind community.  Now if only we could get rid of the rest of the world and pull a "Noah's Ark" with the shroomery members...  j/k  :wink:

You people are truely wonderful!
:heart:


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Just another spore in the wind.


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1972937 - 10/02/03 03:38 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Silver,
I was simply quoting your angry remark from other posts. What about those of us who use the Bible to think for ourselves, scorning the dogma that has been passed down through the church, but instead reading His words and works? See, my point is that just because I read the Bible, it doesnt mean that Im not thinking for myself..

Yes, I do not dispute it appears in Acts in many translations. But what concerns me most is the non translation.. the original.

The Bible is written language, and language cannot speak the truth. It can only describe the truth.
Very true. But, if we let it, I truly believe that it can be a guide.





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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1972957 - 10/02/03 03:45 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

PsiloKitten said:
Silver,
I was simply quoting your angry remark from other posts. What about those of us who use the Bible to think for ourselves, scorning the dogma that has been passed down through the church, but instead reading His words and works? See, my point is that just because I read the Bible, it doesnt mean that Im not thinking for myself..



If you're taking the Bible as the ultimate source of truth, you're not truly thinking for yourself. The ultimate source of truth is your own sense of reason and logic. You can agree with what the Bible says, but don't agree with it just because it says something. Agree with it because it concurs with your own beliefs which you arrive at independently.

Quote:

Yes, I do not dispute it appears in Acts in many translations. But what concerns me most is the non translation.. the original.



If I could read Greek, I'd try to read the original.

Quote:

The Bible is written language, and language cannot speak the truth. It can only describe the truth.
Very true. But, if we let it, I truly believe that it can be a guide.



Go ahead and use it as a guide, then, but don't take it as the be-all and end-all. Truth is revealed through logic, reason, and intuition.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineFunguy
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1973122 - 10/02/03 04:31 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

You say the Bible is not fallible because:
1. It was written by men, who make mistakes, change the Bible to suit their own beliefs, etc.

Well, for those of you who believe in evolution, have you every specifically witnessed evolution for yourself? Aren't you reading the writings of scientists, who are men themselves? There are less ethical scientists who could "change" the observations they make in order to suit a belief they have. You cannot say the Bible, or parts of it, is false simply because "men wrote it."
I did not witness any of the events mentioned in the Bible (except for maybe Revelation so far), but yet I believe them. I DO question the Bible, all Christians do once in a while, but I don't question its accuracy.
Let's not focus on Christians and what they have done, but Christ himself. He said several times that he came to give life, and give it more abundantly. He came knowing he would sacrifice his life for us sinners. He also knew that the chains of death could not hold him. It is his resurrection that gives us hope for a new life.

In my opinion Christ could only be one of three things. Many people say "he was a good man," or "he was a good prophet." But he was either the Son of God, or just another man. Christ could be:

1. A lunatic- he was crazy and had no idea of what he was doing/saying. This does not explain all of the miracles he did.

2. A liar- he knew he wasn't the Son of God. This would make him a hypocrite because he told his followers to do things he himself did not do (worship the one True God). It also made him a fool for dying for something he knew was false.

3. The Lord- everything he said was true. His life, his works, his death, and his resurrection.


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OTD UNDERDOGS

Is attention your retarded heroin?


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
    #1973222 - 10/02/03 05:03 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

another possibility...
jesus was consciously trying to fulfill the prophesies & expectations of the jewish people concerning the massiach (YHVH's annointed, come to remake the world & redeem israel from its position under rome's iron heel) --- but to jews of the time, being a/the messiah had nothing to to with being the son of god, or with being god incarnate (totally contrary to jewish theology, then or now --- but fairly close to gentile experiences & expectations...)
a lot happened to "that old, old story" between the time that jesus was executed by roman soldiers, hanging on his cross between two zealot revolutionaries, and the council at nicea (and emperor constantine's ascension to the throne of the eastern empire, and his sanction of "christianity" as a state religion (which then went rather quickly from being "acceptable to the state" to being "mandatory for all citizens")...
well...


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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