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OfflineFunguy
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: gnrm23]
    #1973238 - 10/02/03 05:08 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Yet all of Jesus's disciples were Jewish. The Roman Empire did not become "Christian" until about 100 years after Christ's resurrection. And all of the prophecies about Christ in the OT were fulfilled by Christ.
The reason most of the scholars rejected Christ was because they were waiting for a truiphant conqueror who would rebuild Israel by force and trample the "infidel." Instead, a lowly loving servant came, to conquer sin with his life, for us.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
    #1973310 - 10/02/03 05:34 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Funguy said:
You say the Bible is not fallible because:
1. It was written by men, who make mistakes, change the Bible to suit their own beliefs, etc.

Well, for those of you who believe in evolution, have you every specifically witnessed evolution for yourself? Aren't you reading the writings of scientists, who are men themselves? There are less ethical scientists who could "change" the observations they make in order to suit a belief they have. You cannot say the Bible, or parts of it, is false simply because "men wrote it."



I do not say that the Bible is false because men wrote it. I'm saying that it is FALLIBLE because men wrote it, WITHOUT BACKING UP THEIR CLAIMS. See, that's the difference between the Bible, and the writings of scientists. They provide PROOF to back up their claims. The Bible does no such thing. Instead, it says you must believe what they are saying or you will go to Hell. So instead of providing proof, it provides threats.

Quote:

I did not witness any of the events mentioned in the Bible (except for maybe Revelation so far), but yet I believe them. I DO question the Bible, all Christians do once in a while, but I don't question its accuracy.



Question its accuracy as well. Question EVERYTHING.

Quote:

Let's not focus on Christians and what they have done, but Christ himself. He said several times that he came to give life, and give it more abundantly. He came knowing he would sacrifice his life for us sinners. He also knew that the chains of death could not hold him. It is his resurrection that gives us hope for a new life.



Why must we live for some afterlife we have no proof of instead of living in the moment?

Quote:

In my opinion Christ could only be one of three things. Many people say "he was a good man," or "he was a good prophet." But he was either the Son of God, or just another man. Christ could be:

1. A lunatic- he was crazy and had no idea of what he was doing/saying. This does not explain all of the miracles he did.

2. A liar- he knew he wasn't the Son of God. This would make him a hypocrite because he told his followers to do things he himself did not do (worship the one True God). It also made him a fool for dying for something he knew was false.

3. The Lord- everything he said was true. His life, his works, his death, and his resurrection.



Some say Christ spent part of his life(between age 13 and 30) in India. If that is true, then he must have picked up on the Hindu beliefs of the people there. Now, in Hinduism, their concept of God is called the Atman, the all-that-is. In otherwords, God is all things and all people. We are all God. Given this belief, it is easy to say that he is both God and the Son of God, as we all are. Perhaps his disciples misinterpreted this to believe that he alone was God and the Son of God. Haven't you considered the possibility that Christ's followers, even in his own lifetime, may have misinterpreted his message? As for the resurrection, if that is false, then that is not his fault for it being in the Bible, it is the fault of the people writing it down, or the sources they were relying upon. To find an interesting theory on the resurrection, I suggest reading "The Passover Plot" by Hugh J. Schonfield.


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1973337 - 10/02/03 05:46 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

So silver...

I do not say that the Bible is false because men wrote it. I'm saying that it is FALLIBLE because men wrote it, WITHOUT BACKING UP THEIR CLAIMS. See, that's the difference between the Bible, and the writings of scientists. They provide PROOF to back up their claims. The Bible does no such thing. Instead, it says you must believe what they are saying or you will go to Hell. So instead of providing proof, it provides threats.

What do you think of the torah codes?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1973342 - 10/02/03 05:49 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

What do you think of the torah codes?



I don't know much about them. Could you explain them to me?


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OfflineFunguy
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1973353 - 10/02/03 05:54 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Actually, between the ages of 13-30 he worked with his father Joseph. Jesus did carpentry work, and probably went to what was much like seminary school in his late 20's. It has been shown that Jesus never went to India (I will find evidence to back up my claims).


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
    #1973359 - 10/02/03 05:55 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I look forward to reading this supposed evidence. Anyway, my point about people misinterpreting what Jesus said still stands.


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1973367 - 10/02/03 05:59 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Phew.

Explain the torah codes.

I will admit, there are so many intricacies that Im sure to botch it.

http://membres.lycos.fr/ingold/tcodes.htm This site has a pretty concise explaination.

From what Ive read it's currently a ping pong game between science /mathematics and religion/ mathematics.. neither has proven without a shadow of a doubt that they are correct, but the battle continues and gets more and more intricate.

It's pretty interesting, no matter which side you stand on. Some people think that it is science's proof to God's existance, the ultimate symbol. Some people say, by the same computations Mobey Dick foretells Diana's death, nixon and some other misc. things.. but nobody has every been able to take any work of literature and uncover the true amount of data that has been uncovered in the bible with the codes. The possibility of it being random chance, to me, is the same as your impossibility that Adam and Eve is how life began.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1973407 - 10/02/03 06:09 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Well, how specific are these predictions? Does it say stuff like "so-and-so will die on such-and-such a date" or is it more vague than that? The real question is: Did the writers of the Bible INTEND for these codes to be in there?


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1973428 - 10/02/03 06:20 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

PsiloKitten -
No, I haven't been to that site, but will on your suggestion.
Thomas was only known in fragments until the Nag Hammadi find in 1945. It may derive from an early oral tradition that the earliest writer of a Gospel, 'Mark,' may have used. On the other hand:
" We may limit ourselves to the prudent conclusion that the Gospel according to Thomas may well contain elements which are prior to the composition of the synoptic gospels and independent of them; but that the verbal identity with some of the canonical parables makes it probable that it is later than the synoptic gospels, at least in its present form." pp.347-348, The secret Books of the Egyptian Gnostics by J. Doresse

" Finally, as concerns the actual substance of the teaching given here...it is, as it stands, only an apocryphal work to which no real authority can be attributed [!], and even in its very composition is artificial. But bearing this in mind, it is still possible to read this collection and in doing so to be brought into direct and moving contact with a very ancient form of Christianity...Sometimes also we will find in it, veiled in the mysterious language of parables, an original and precise interpretation of passages of the canonical gospels which has appeared obscure to us." Ibid, p. 352

This "very ancient form of Christianity" has for me verified much of the Truth that I found in both Neoplatonic and Indian thought, and given them the Christian 'stamp of approval' so-to-speak. This ancient form has thus allowed me to accept and not reject as false, many years of experience, and has thereby furthered my Christian personal development in ways that the strictly Pauline theology was never able to do for me. It therefore does indeed convey authority - the authority of the ability to become conformed inwardly to the image of Christ.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1973445 - 10/02/03 06:29 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

The writers of the Bible couldnt have intended for those codes to be there.. they had no foreknowledge of the Holocaust or Aids, or the names of the famous Rabbis whose birth and death dates were also incoded. These people came far after any living being that wrote the Bible could have had direct knowledge of. Doron Witztum's "Famous Rabbis Code" was published in a magazine called Statistical Science in 94-- nobody has been able to refute his findings yet, unlike the earlier findings of the Yeshua codes, which although they are indeed there, nothing has been able to prove their significance and many have been able to prove their insignificance with relations to the fact that Koresh is the Messiah, Buddah is the Messiah and etc also appear in the codes.

The odds of Witzum's findings are 62500:1.

If you havent.. you should rent the movie Pi. It touches on this subject as well and is a pretty good movie to boot.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1973454 - 10/02/03 06:33 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

There could be something to that, but have they tried using that on other sacred writings? Perhaps the Koran, or the Gospel of Thomas, or the Tibetan Book of the Dead, or the Tao Te Ching also has hidden information? You already mentioned the Moby Dick thing.


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1973473 - 10/02/03 06:41 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Markos,
Some of the site is a bit out there for me, but it did originally introduce me to the writings of St. Issa which are very interesting to me. They validate all of the feelings I have about other religions that hasnt been completely revealed to me with the Bible. I feel that it doesnt contradict my beliefs of the truth of the Bible either.

As for Thomas, from your quote you touch on something Im curious about.. from reading Thomas myself it seems in it's form to predate that of the Gospels. Yet the quote says that it can also be thought that it, in its present form, occured later then the synoptic Gospels. Who rewrote Thomas?

Also, do you think that in experience and reading of the Pauline theology, one has the capacity to "conform inwardly to the image of Christ"? Do you feel that the "one" or the "all" can act in our lives in such a way that we can be saved by works alone?



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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1973488 - 10/02/03 06:47 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Yes.

Infact, the Yeshua Codes were used on the Koran and "Mohammed is the Messiah" was evident. Hence why the original hypothesis of the codes by Christian scholars was disproved for their hypothesis.

Then Doron came along and gave us the Rabbi codes.. and they have not been found in comparison with the Koran, war and peace and a plethora of other books (Genesis scrambled, Mobey Dick).. They have been trying to disprove it since 94.. so Id think they would have compared with the books you cited ( perhaps barring the Gospel of Thomas).. but I cannot say for sure other then the ones I listed.

Doron is soon to release a new paper, people are abuzz to hear it's findings.


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OfflineFungi_x
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1973494 - 10/02/03 06:50 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Lets face it, Jesus did it for the chicks.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1973498 - 10/02/03 06:51 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Interesting. Anyway, I fail to see how codes in the Bible predicting the future are any sort of proof the historical accuracy of the creation story and other Biblical claims which contradict the findings of scientific observation.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1973502 - 10/02/03 06:53 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Only GOD Knows who wrote/rewrote Thomas.

Faith without works is dead. We must act, and if we act from our True Center then our faith is alive and well. Lots of do-gooders re acting out of their own egos for a variety of reasons. I learned long ago that being a 'Boy Scout' doesn't get you into Heaven. Having Heaven inside of you makes you into a 'Boy Scout.' When one Knows, one acts accordingly - Compassionately.


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Anonymous

Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1973885 - 10/02/03 08:54 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Lots of do-gooders re acting out of their own egos for a variety of reasons. I learned long ago that being a 'Boy Scout' doesn't get you into Heaven. Having Heaven inside of you makes you into a 'Boy Scout.' When one Knows, one acts accordingly - Compassionately.


so, suppose a person is an atheist, and does good things for their fellow man.

you believe that they are doing it for their ego's.

but the christian who does the same good things does it for something beyond that and therefore is "compassionate"?

correct me if i'm wrong, but thats what i got out of it.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: ]
    #1973971 - 10/02/03 09:23 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Compassion is like a Divine Love for all human beings, it is a love that derives from God. Compassionate people act and reason as God would.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Zahid]
    #1973984 - 10/02/03 09:26 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

So does someone have to believe in God to act compassionately?


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1974000 - 10/02/03 09:35 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Probably not, but through God it's likely easier to be a more loving, compassionate person since He is the ultimate source of love and compassion. But could someone who is seperate from the very source of Divine Love be more compassionate than someone who is living in it?


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