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InvisibleMilkVein
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Zahid]
    #1974006 - 10/02/03 09:38 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Just to let it be known, I VERY MUCH BELEIVE IN GOD!


--------------------
I've been first and last
Look at how the time goes past.
But I'm all alone at last.
Rolling home to you.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: ]
    #1974078 - 10/02/03 10:01 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

If one's ego has been 'dethroned' as the center of one's life, and a New Center has been recognized as one's True Center, it is like the pre-Copernican view of the Earth being the center of the universe, and suddenly one realizes that it is the Sun around which the Earth and planets revolve. 'Christ the Center' is the name of a book by a Christian theologian named Dietrich Bonhoffer who was martyred by the Nazis. It speaks to a Transcendental Center around which the Christian allows his/her life to be organized - like a magnet that organizes a random scattering of iron filings from beneath a sheet of paper into symmetrical lines of force.

A Christian acknowledges this 'Ordering Principle,' calls it Lord, or Master, for It/He is the Source of existence, and wishes to be guided by Him. The rewards far outweigh the difficulties, in my own experience.

As far as I can tell, true altruism on the part of an atheist is simply a matter of the atheist being unconscious and unaware of the Source of that altruism in him/her. God also gives existence to the atheist, but the atheist neither acknowledges that Transcendental Source, or seeks to Know It/Him more intimately. Such a person will never Know Who and What [s]he is missing. God is not an idea or an object of belief. God is Ultimate Reality that underlies all of created existence. Atheists that I have known will never be able to know me very well or very deeply because only the core person can know another's core, and atheists are forever alienated from their core because that is the point at which the Spirit of God and the spirit of man interface - but they don't want to go there.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1974084 - 10/02/03 10:05 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

God is Ultimate Reality that underlies all of created existence



That is exactly what I have come to believe through my experience with psychedelics.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1974207 - 10/02/03 10:45 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1975200 - 10/03/03 07:53 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

"laws for living"

If Jesus shows up with "laws for living," I'll kick him to the curb faster than you can say "Jesus, Mary and Joseph!." Whoever the imposter is, it isn't the Living Presence. It isn't 'Freedom for living.' I recommend a nice Catholic monastery for people who want to live by Rules. They are called 'Orders' for very literal reasons. You live according to a Rule, say, 'Poverty, Chastity, Obedience, [and sometimes Silence].' You have a rigid regime of private prayer, communal prayer, eating time, working time, sleeping time, and a Superior who tells you what you must do to grow spiritually. You might consider giving up all of your existential freedom so you can be free of having to think or do for yourself, free from social obligations, and free from Freedom.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Funguy]
    #1975723 - 10/03/03 11:50 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Funguy said:
2. A liar- he knew he wasn't the Son of God. This would make him a hypocrite because he told his followers to do things he himself did not do (worship the one True God). It also made him a fool for dying for something he knew was false.




Well, so yeah, maybe he just like thought he was the Son of God and everything, but maybe he actually wasn't. And, I mean, maybe the son of Odin had more power than him, anyways, what are ya gonna do?

By the way, your three options for who Jesus Christ was, like they were worded the exact same way as you posted them in some other post a few weeks back. Are the thoughts in your head really that ordered and memorized so throughly, like having to recite from the Small Catchesim for Confirmation? (god, I remember doing that. don't remember a one).

Quote:


Actually, between the ages of 13-30 he worked with his father Joseph. Jesus did carpentry work, and probably went to what was much like seminary school in his late 20's. It has been shown that Jesus never went to India (I will find evidence to back up my claims).




If you can find evidence that Jesus never went to India, could you find any evidence on the fact that Jesus of Nazareth did indeed say everything he did for the motivations the Bible gets across? Reminds me of The Simpsons, the one where Lisa found out that Jebediah Springfield was actually some pirate that tried to kill George Washington and had a silver tounge, not like the revered hero and town founder that everyone held him as...

If you remember right, Lisa decided to let the ignorant stay ignorant because then everyone would remain happy...
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1975875 - 10/03/03 12:49 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

"As far as I can tell, true altruism on the part of an atheist is simply a matter of the atheist being unconscious and unaware of the Source of that altruism in him/her. God also gives existence to the atheist, but the atheist neither acknowledges that Transcendental Source, or seeks to Know It/Him more intimately. Such a person will never Know Who and What [s]he is missing. God is not an idea or an object of belief. God is Ultimate Reality that underlies all of created existence. Atheists that I have known will never be able to know me very well or very deeply because only the core person can know another's core, and atheists are forever alienated from their core because that is the point at which the Spirit of God and the spirit of man interface - but they don't want to go there. "

Phhht.

Our outlooks on reality differ completely, and it may be fair to say an agnostic will never fully understand yours, but it's pretty arrogant to claim that you understand the other outlook perfectly, and that it's inferior. Could it be that they have an understanding of something you will never know?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Offlinenubious
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Zahid]
    #1975899 - 10/03/03 12:55 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

All this contraversy over god and 'he' being the ultimate power int he universe yadda yadda yadda.. How many times has this been discussed? How many times have YOU personally had this conversation with someone? It's the same never-ending vicious circle.. the same facts keep getting brought up, and the same opinions sometimes change, but generally stay the same.

WHO CARES IF CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS - The bottom line is it's written in some book that's older than a lot of stuff we have - whether he died for our sins or not, there was some guy named Jesus that had a good way of looking at things way back in the day. Obviously his work was for nothing 'cause look at where shit stands today (on the global scale). The muslims are still startin' shit in the middle east, we have people like bush in the whitehouse, and rather than us, people who put thought into what we decide to do, going out and helping change the world, you're all sitting here bickering about whether some guy hung from a plus sign back in the day. Christians are Christians because they accept things without proof - those who question generally don't stick at christianity very long unless they were brought up as such.
My point is, religon gets us no where. When will some of you realise that?


--------------------
No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Phluck]
    #1975903 - 10/03/03 12:56 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Markos said:
As far as I can tell, true altruism on the part of an atheist is simply a matter of the atheist being unconscious and unaware of the Source of that altruism in him/her. God also gives existence to the atheist, but the atheist neither acknowledges that Transcendental Source, or seeks to Know It/Him more intimately. Such a person will never Know Who and What [s]he is missing. God is not an idea or an object of belief. God is Ultimate Reality that underlies all of created existence. Atheists that I have known will never be able to know me very well or very deeply because only the core person can know another's core, and atheists are forever alienated from their core because that is the point at which the Spirit of God and the spirit of man interface - but they don't want to go there.





Indubiantly. I am connected at the moment, man (partially due to this " :stash:", but mostly due to its effects on my mind), and what you are saying rings true.

The Here and Now Experience has never been better. Now I must refill my wild berry juice.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1975996 - 10/03/03 01:27 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

"As far as I can tell, true altruism on the part of a non-addict is simply a matter of the non-addict being unaware of the power and beauty that lies within junk. Junk is fully available to the non-addict, but he doesn't seek it out, and doesn't even seem to care about its power. Such a person will never what he is missing. Addiction is not a lifestyle or a belief. Junk is Ultimate Pleasure that waits for all who are willing."

I try to avoid junk in any form. I'm sure I could believe myself into a magical flurry of joy and love or whatever, but I'd rather think than believe.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1976353 - 10/03/03 03:05 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1976471 - 10/03/03 03:41 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

"Unless a man works he shall not eat food."

Is it okay to feed someone who has been paralyzed in an accident?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleTODAY
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Phluck]
    #1976595 - 10/03/03 04:28 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

some Christians are a little wacked out, you know?? i saw some at a camp this summer where i was camping w/ my friends and they walked around with bibles and they got mad when we swore and they liked really gay music and they couldn't possibly ever have any good fun.

i mean, really, do you want to live your life like that? i guess its cool if you like it but most of these kids have been brainwashed since birth by thier parents to believe all of this is good and that is fucked up. let these kids make their own damn decisions!!!

plus, some of those girls were hot and that is just a waste right there.


--------------------

ca'rouse (k-rouz)
intr.v.
To engage in boisterous, drunken merrymaking.


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Invisiblechunder
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: TODAY]
    #1976646 - 10/03/03 04:41 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

This thread is one of the best examples of the inadequecies of our language that I've ever seen. So many words that have so many different meanings are just being tossed around like universal and static truths. Its sad really.

Not much of anything is being communicated, just a bunch of vague and subjective banter.

I suppose theres nothing to be done about it, we can only work with what we have. It just makes me sad that we can't share and communicate to a fuller degree. We need new linguistic tools, thats for sure.


--------------------


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: nubious]
    #1976801 - 10/03/03 05:22 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)


All this contraversy over god and 'he' being the ultimate power int he universe yadda yadda yadda.. How many times has this been discussed? How many times have YOU personally had this conversation with someone? It's the same never-ending vicious circle.. the same facts keep getting brought up, and the same opinions sometimes change, but generally stay the same.


I'm just discussing God here - the title of the thread is called 'Christ died for our sins?'. In no way am I projecting my views of God on anyone here, like I may have did a year ago. Frankly, I find it hypocritical when some people here say 'Christianity is stupid' and discuss their own ideas how religion is foolish, et cet era; and then everyone jumps on someone if they utter "Ultimate Reality". In the humble exchange of ideas, I am going to assert that God is in fact Ultimate Reality, and He's eternally there and everywhere, and it doesn't take that much energy at all acknowledge His Presence. For people who don't believe in God, they essentially don't need God and thus will never know Him - that's what 'Hell' is, the lack of the presence of God. For me that is more terrifying than any Hellfire surah or Brimstone verse. The face of Love as we know it is everywhere, and to some extent everyone has the ability to know this because we're all made up of god-stuff.


--------------------


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Anonymous

Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Zahid]
    #1977044 - 10/03/03 06:31 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

The face of Love as we know it is everywhere, and to some extent everyone has the ability to know this because we're all made up of god-stuff.

i am made up of organic molecules.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Phluck]
    #1977652 - 10/03/03 11:55 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

No. The Transcendental perspective is 'higher,' which is to say inclusive of perspectives that the agnostic does not access. I recommend that you read some Ken Wilber to get a sense of 'The great Chain of Being.' The 'higher' one climbs, the further one sees, is about the simplest way of putting this.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1977666 - 10/04/03 12:01 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Yes, yes, and in my, um, best Woody Allenesque way, perhaps you've heard this one: 'Remove the large stick from thy rectum gently, lest thou suffer splinters.'


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Anonymous

Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1977704 - 10/04/03 12:17 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

The 'higher' one climbs, the further one sees, is about the simplest way of putting this.


and whos to say that the rung of "faith in god" isn't below the man who can rid himself of all beliefs and false ideals?

as the theist looks to god for his problems and finds hope in his bible, the atheist looks at himself, he sees nature for all it can be seen and the experience of life as something more grand than he can ever imagine, or HOPE to understand.

as the theist prays to god for his OWN salvation, the atheist looks at humanity's problems and wonders why we can't step forward and find something greater... use our mental power and faith in eachother to achieve great things.

still the theist sits in church on sunday, very content that he is going to heaven, and praying to god everynight for his soul... ever caring about his soul, and his own path to eternity.

when we try to look past ourselves, maybe we can find joy in our one experience here on earth, and maybe see the beauty in that... realize that this world is whatever we make it, and the thoughts that go into building it are never ending and limitless.

but not, the theist would rather pick up a 2000 year old book and say "this is it, the answer!"..

how sad that we must limit ourselves in such a way, its true, the theist sees only himself and god, and misses the grand picture of what is true and rational... the theist cannot see what is in front of him, because he is so deluded into hope, idols, and saviors.



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Offlinejoeshitragpicker
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Re: Christ died for our sins? [Re: Zahid]
    #1978093 - 10/04/03 02:46 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Your beleif system is no better/worse than mine; because when it comes down to it, the only thing we really know is that we are these animals floating on a ball in space. Period.
Everything anyone says is pure speculation. All thiscomes from language; which is nothing more than a construct of our imagination; language itself limits the individual when they attempt to explain God to another human.
Anyone saying anything derogatory about anothers belief system/percieved core of who they are has obviously not come to this conclusion, which means they deny reality.


--------------------


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