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Offlineny2casports89
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Omnibenevolence controlling omnipotence?
    #8356359 - 05/03/08 02:33 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I have a theory that the only thing powerful enough to control an omnipotent being from destroying itself is omnibenevolence. Without omnibenevolence there is room to be selfish, and if an omnipotent being is a little selfish, he could potentially unleash an infinite amount of power to obtain something for itself, and in doing so destroy everthing. That is unless it loved everything so much that it was incapable of doing this.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Omnibenevolence controlling omnipotence? [Re: ny2casports89]
    #8356424 - 05/03/08 02:50 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Interesting concept!

But wouldn't omniscience and onmipresence, which seem like they'd be required for omnipotence to work, be enough to temper the potential greed of an omnipotent being? If they know everything and are everwhere/everything what is there to seek? This way this ultimate being (who is everything/everywhere/everytime and self conscious) would be neutral in that it contains the entire spectrum of positive/negative and neutrality is the balancing point of chaos.


Edited by NiamhNyx (05/03/08 02:58 AM)


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Offlineny2casports89
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Re: Omnibenevolence controlling omnipotence? [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #8356524 - 05/03/08 03:26 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I would agree with that, but perhaps an omniscient being would KNOW that he had to be omnibenevolent in order to control his omnipotence. Or perhaps omnibenevolence is a prerequisite for omnipotence, but not the ONLY prerequisite.

I just like this idea, cause it alludes to the idea that God is by definition more powerful then Satan. and i mean this in the vaguest concepts of God and Satan possible, not the common Christian understanding.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Omnibenevolence controlling omnipotence? [Re: ny2casports89]
    #8357141 - 05/03/08 12:12 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

If the 'ultimate being' is omniscient and omnipresent, wouldn't that mean that it would emcompass everything and contain every possible state of consciousness and thus that the god/satan dichotomy was false? All that exists would literally be a part of the ultimate being/consciousness, and the balancing point would be neutrality. It would be a matter of choice how a part of the whole (i.e. an individual person) wanted to express thier part of the puzzle. Perhaps omnibenevolence would be a natural outcome of omniscience, but only one of countless other possibilities. Every possible state would exist within the one, the source, the whole.

"Lucifer is the child bride of the Christ" - Daniel Higgs


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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: Omnibenevolence controlling omnipotence? [Re: ny2casports89]
    #8357256 - 05/03/08 01:02 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I have a theory that the only thing powerful enough to control an omnipotent being from destroying itself is omnibenevolence.




I think there's already something like that out there called Yin and Yang


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Omnibenevolence controlling omnipotence? [Re: ny2casports89]
    #8357708 - 05/03/08 03:12 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

ny2casports89 said:
I have a theory that the only thing powerful enough to control an omnipotent being from destroying itself is omnibenevolence. Without omnibenevolence there is room to be selfish, and if an omnipotent being is a little selfish, he could potentially unleash an infinite amount of power to obtain something for itself, and in doing so destroy everthing. That is unless it loved everything so much that it was incapable of doing this.




so this is your "theory"?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineny2casports89
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Re: Omnibenevolence controlling omnipotence? [Re: Icelander]
    #8357876 - 05/03/08 04:16 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

i came to this theory on my own, i make no claim to be the original person to think this.


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Offlineny2casports89
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Re: Omnibenevolence controlling omnipotence? [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #8357891 - 05/03/08 04:19 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

NiamhNyx said:
If the 'ultimate being' is omniscient and omnipresent, wouldn't that mean that it would emcompass everything and contain every possible state of consciousness and thus that the god/satan dichotomy was false? All that exists would literally be a part of the ultimate being/consciousness, and the balancing point would be neutrality. It would be a matter of choice how a part of the whole (i.e. an individual person) wanted to express thier part of the puzzle. Perhaps omnibenevolence would be a natural outcome of omniscience, but only one of countless other possibilities. Every possible state would exist within the one, the source, the whole.

"Lucifer is the child bride of the Christ" - Daniel Higgs




perhaps life is simply the whole realizing that he is really just one being.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Omnibenevolence controlling omnipotence? [Re: ny2casports89]
    #8357935 - 05/03/08 04:33 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

And as a 'theory', it is testable and falsifiable, right?


--------------------


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Offlineny2casports89
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Re: Omnibenevolence controlling omnipotence? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8357962 - 05/03/08 04:42 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

its just an idea i put up for discussion, u guys are getting to caught up on the words i used. I'm not trying to proclaim that i've made some profound discovery, just stimulate thought.


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Re: Omnibenevolence controlling omnipotence? [Re: ny2casports89]
    #8357976 - 05/03/08 04:46 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

All we have are the words. Do you have pictures, too?


--------------------


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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: Omnibenevolence controlling omnipotence? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8358751 - 05/03/08 09:07 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
All we have are the words. Do you have pictures, too?





I second that


I'm a picture type of guy.

A Chinese caricature would work too.


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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Offlineny2casports89
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Re: Omnibenevolence controlling omnipotence? [Re: Cracka_X]
    #8361911 - 05/04/08 06:43 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

i dont have pictures, i'm just suggesting that if you are conscious of the fact that we only have words, perhaps you should consider the possibility that I was limited in my ability to express this idea. I think the idea as a whole can be comprehended pretty easily, and when we start arguing over whether this is in fact a "theory" and if so if its a testable one, were going off on a meaningless tangent.

An example of this is right now. Instead of discussing the plausibility of the original claim, I feel obligated to make this post so we can stay focused. So now that we've cleared up absolutley nothing meaningful I say we either continue the orginal discussion, (perhaps that will lead to something meaningful) or let this thread die.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Omnibenevolence controlling omnipotence? [Re: ny2casports89]
    #8362156 - 05/04/08 07:50 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I see. It is my fault that you failed to choose your words carefully. You propose a theory that is not, in fact, a theory. Which and how many of the other words that you wrote should be overlooked or discarded or redefined on-the-fly?

Should every reader make this arbitrary decision?

How do you think that would aid in the clarity of a discussion?


--------------------


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Omnibenevolence controlling omnipotence? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8362599 - 05/04/08 09:48 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Whether or not the concept is or can be proven to be objective reality, it's a fun one to play with. Starting with a premise, any premise, and working through the logical implications is an enjoyable thing to do. Isn't that what philosophy is about anyways?


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Offlineny2casports89
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Re: Omnibenevolence controlling omnipotence? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8363180 - 05/04/08 11:59 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
I see. It is my fault that you failed to choose your words carefully. You propose a theory that is not, in fact, a theory. Which and how many of the other words that you wrote should be overlooked or discarded or redefined on-the-fly?

Should every reader make this arbitrary decision?

How do you think that would aid in the clarity of a discussion?




clearly you missed the point of my last post, I was simply trying to say that I think you could have figured out the gist of what I was trying to say despite my poor use of rhetoric, but it seems you would simply prefer to argue over meaningless things then discuss something of potential meaning.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Omnibenevolence controlling omnipotence? [Re: ny2casports89]
    #8363193 - 05/05/08 12:01 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Being clear is not meaningless.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineny2casports89
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Re: Omnibenevolence controlling omnipotence? [Re: Icelander]
    #8363223 - 05/05/08 12:09 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

yes but arguing about it is


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Omnibenevolence controlling omnipotence? [Re: Icelander]
    #8363224 - 05/05/08 12:09 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

There is my wingman now. :rasta:


--------------------


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Omnibenevolence controlling omnipotence? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8363268 - 05/05/08 12:24 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
There is my wingman now. :rasta:




You clearly need one. From a philosophical point of view, you have not done anything to argue against the original poster's logic. He is one up one you. Please expose the hole in his reasoning instead of acting like you will and then not following through.

Because the argument so far makes sense to me. Granted, the entire argument is based on a speculation/hypothetical scenario in which an omnipotent being exists, which no one can prove/disprove, but that doesn't mean his reasoning within this hypothetical situation is flawed. Some of us enjoy applying logic to hypothetical situations.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Omnibenevolence controlling omnipotence? [Re: ny2casports89]
    #8363348 - 05/05/08 12:46 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

ny2, you don't need to apologize for the way you articulated your ideas, don't mind those old curmudgeons and just stick to the discussion you're trying to have. They'll derail anything they can if given the chance. Don't take the bait!

I for one think it's interesting to reason in the hypothetical and you shouldn't have to type a disclaimer in bold red font before delving into such territory.


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Re: Omnibenevolence controlling omnipotence? [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #8365477 - 05/05/08 05:47 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Hey I resemble that remark.:evil:  Little girl, don't ever, ever, ever, lump me in with Swami.:mrt:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Omnibenevolence controlling omnipotence? [Re: Icelander]
    #8365493 - 05/05/08 05:52 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah! I am Jack Lemmon and he is Walter Matthieu.


--------------------


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Offlineray40cal
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Re: Omnibenevolence controlling omnipotence? [Re: ny2casports89]
    #8366243 - 05/05/08 09:38 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

ny2casports89 said:
I have a theory that the only thing powerful enough to control an omnipotent being from destroying itself is omnibenevolence.  Without omnibenevolence there is room to be selfish, and if an omnipotent being is a little selfish, he could potentially unleash an infinite amount of power to obtain something for itself, and in doing so destroy everthing.  That is unless it loved everything so much that it was incapable of doing this.




New little twist on the topic here;  Would it not make sense that an omnipotent, selfish being, take God for example, would need to create an omnibenevolent being - Christ? Without doing so, how would he deal with humans; the only species on the planet capable of evil? We wouldn't have a reason to live, and if we still did we wouldn't be able to sin, which means we'd think more like monkeys than people. I didn't just say something about evolution did I???? :stoned:


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