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OfflineLearyfanS
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What of those who haven't heard of Christ?
    #5527534 - 04/18/06 01:17 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

This is influenced by the 2005 thread called "Contradictions In The Bible?!" in The Pub. Shroomery member #126019, biO asked ........

Quote:

Why would people be damned to an eternity for not believing in Jesus during a finite life? How just is that? What about all the billions of people who have never heard of (nor ever had the chance to hear of) Jesus? Why are these people born destined to damnation?




I believe most Christians might say that those who never had a chance to hear of Jesus would be saved automatically. If that's true, then wouldn't it be better if no one was ever taught of Jesus? That way, you don't even run the risk of going to hell.

Tell me what you think.








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Mp3 of the month:  Sons Of Adam - Feathered Fish



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Offlinefresh313
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Re: What of those who haven't heard of Christ? [Re: Learyfan]
    #5527562 - 04/18/06 01:22 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

u aint gettin out of here alive, and when ur dead u aint goin nowheres.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: What of those who haven't heard of Christ? [Re: Learyfan]
    #5527596 - 04/18/06 01:29 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

shouldn't you be asking this on a christian website or something? most of the people on this forum do not hold the belief that one must have heard the story of jesus the person to be saved.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: What of those who haven't heard of Christ? [Re: Learyfan]
    #5527692 - 04/18/06 01:55 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

"To judge from the notions expounded by theologians, one must conclude that God created most men simply with a view to crowding hell." -- Marquis de Sade


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: What of those who haven't heard of Christ? [Re: Learyfan]
    #5528232 - 04/18/06 04:47 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Everyone who finds the way to g*d and can accept it/her/him as ultimate reality, what means a purpose of existence beyond our limited human comprehension in regarding the 'all', and act in correspondence with this, will not been rejected from it/her/him, whatever religion he is.
Try to make THIS experience, as it is recognizable in our lifetime, and judge for yourself. Prime premise: Be honest to yourself.

G*d is not dependent on religion, religion is something humans invented to make a community for the perceivers of g*d (and that is, as I repeatedly say, always colored in subjective, cultural and temporal 'representations', which were to look behind. But it is like with every representation...can you grasp the essence inside the package, without 'using' it ?) :lol:


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineShroomerious
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Re: What of those who haven't heard of Christ? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5528256 - 04/18/06 05:17 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

What is it that makes you believe that whatever g*d(nice way of stating god as a subjective term :-)) loves you, forgives you and accepts you or even give a dime about what you feel?


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Offlinetheuser
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Re: What of those who haven't heard of Christ? [Re: Learyfan]
    #5528298 - 04/18/06 06:35 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

I think it's bullshit. Sigh, religions. They teach great ways to live but to also have to accept a false history isn't right.


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:heart:


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OfflineShroomerious
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Re: What of those who haven't heard of Christ? [Re: theuser]
    #5528301 - 04/18/06 06:39 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

'xactly


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: What of those who haven't heard of Christ? [Re: Learyfan]
    #5528322 - 04/18/06 07:32 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

"The very thing which is now called the Christian religion existed among the ancients also, nor was it wanting from the inception of the human race until the coming of Christ in the flesh, at which point the true religion, which was already in existence, began to be called Christian."

- St. Augustine, Retractiones (quoted in The Pagan Christ by Tom Harpur)


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineShroomerious
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Re: What of those who haven't heard of Christ? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5528327 - 04/18/06 07:35 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Oh, so now the christian religion is the correct one right?


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Offlinefresh313
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Re: What of those who haven't heard of Christ? [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5528438 - 04/18/06 09:11 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

..


Edited by fresh313 (04/18/06 12:13 PM)


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Offlinecastaway
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Re: What of those who haven't heard of Christ? [Re: Learyfan]
    #5528537 - 04/18/06 09:48 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:
This is influenced by the 2005 thread called "Contradictions In The Bible?!" in The Pub. Shroomery member #126019, biO asked ........

Quote:

Why would people be damned to an eternity for not believing in Jesus during a finite life? How just is that? What about all the billions of people who have never heard of (nor ever had the chance to hear of) Jesus? Why are these people born destined to damnation?




I believe most Christians might say that those who never had a chance to hear of Jesus would be saved automatically. If that's true, then wouldn't it be better if no one was ever taught of Jesus? That way, you don't even run the risk of going to hell.

Tell me what you think.





Pink Floyd said it best for me, quote"If you don't eat your meat you can't have any pudding! How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat!"


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OfflineShroomerious
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Re: What of those who haven't heard of Christ? [Re: castaway]
    #5528586 - 04/18/06 10:25 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

"Pink Floyd said it best for me, quote"If you don't eat your meat you can't have any pudding! How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat!" "

Nice quote mate!


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Offlineblaze2
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Re: What of those who haven't heard of Christ? [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5529257 - 04/18/06 02:24 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

"Nature herself has imprinted on the minds of all the idea of God."-Cicero

everyone wheather or not they hear the story of Jesus, feels a natural pull to obey the golden rule, "do unto others as you would have done to yourself." This is base for all religions. Monkeys have been tested in labs, by putting two in side by side boxes, and placing a treat in front of one that only the other could pull to his buddy. They nearly always did, and if one didnt the other would refuse to pull the lever for him. It is our Nature to behave goodly to each other, not something we have to learn.

Do you think that without being shown the Word, someone would think it Ok to murder, steal, rape? of course not. People are judged on their works not on their beliefs. If you believe in Jesus its supposobly easier to get in, but I dont buy that at all. Alot of the stuff in teh new testatment I get the feeling that it was added AFTER Jesus died, and that its a whole lot of wishful thinking.

Christianity as an organized religion shouldnt even exist. After Jesus is resurrected they fall down to worship him as a God, and he says "nay, rise worship God even as I do." Jesus wasnt christian he was Jewish guys.

Other quotes from the bible that make it clear Churches go against the word.

"Lift a stone you will find me, Turn a leaf and I am there." Doesnt say look in buildings does it?

"Worship in your closet" doesn't get much clearer.


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"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineShroomerious
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Re: What of those who haven't heard of Christ? [Re: blaze2]
    #5529588 - 04/18/06 03:38 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

I live in a heavily religious country, and there have been many times in my life when I heard someone saying the name of christ to help them not lose their patience with something or do something that is considered wr*ng and b*d. I didn't say that people would think it would be ok. Just that religion gives people an extra factor to take into consideration when they are about to do something wr*ng. Many people that I know often think.."hmm, god would sure not approve that" and they avoid doing it. It is kind of a substitude for character strength on all aspects of it.


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Offlineblaze2
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Re: What of those who haven't heard of Christ? [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5529672 - 04/18/06 04:05 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

it is when you use God that way, but someone who actually listens to bible does not. God is not about making us into perfect little humans, he wants us to show love to one another intsead of hate. His rules reflect this unfortunately people refuse to follow rules unless they fear retribution. A goodly man doesnt thinkn about obeying the ten commandments, he would never consider teh paths of hate in teh first place. If you let go of hate(of even teh devil himself as even he plays a part in Gods plan) then nothing can harm you.


Psalm 23
1The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.

2He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

3He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

4Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

5Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.

6Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

probrobly my favorite verse in teh bible.


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinekotik
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Re: What of those who haven't heard of Christ? [Re: blaze2]
    #5529896 - 04/18/06 05:13 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

havent heard of christ = free pass.


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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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OfflineShroomerious
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Re: What of those who haven't heard of Christ? [Re: kotik]
    #5529909 - 04/18/06 05:18 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

havent heard of christ = free pass.

looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool
and it's true as well!!!(you know what I mean)


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: What of those who haven't heard of Christ? [Re: Learyfan]
    #5529918 - 04/18/06 05:21 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

My momma said they don't get to go to catholic heaven. They go to a watered down version because they're not baptized :smile:


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Namaste


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OfflineShroomerious
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Re: What of those who haven't heard of Christ? [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5529954 - 04/18/06 05:37 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

you know there is lots of truth lurking behind all these jokes loool


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: What of those who haven't heard of Christ? [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5529996 - 04/18/06 05:49 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I wasn't joking. My mother actually believes that.


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Namaste


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OfflineShroomerious
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Re: What of those who haven't heard of Christ? [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5530023 - 04/18/06 05:55 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

LOL!!!!

Actually I am not that surprised...I've heard worse. I come from Greece!!!!!People swearing as they were steping on each other to touch a "holy" image of christ.That has left a mark on my mind. A mark to remind me of how stupid most christians are.


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: What of those who haven't heard of Christ? [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5530058 - 04/18/06 06:04 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

It's a powerful set of ideas for people, Christianity is. Believers are tenacious. I was a devout Catholic for most of my life. It is very easy to believe if you've been raised that way. It is still unnerving for me to joke about satan and hell. I was singing in the car the other day, "I sell my soul to Satan! I am doomed to hell forever!" in order to come to terms with my belief that those words are false.


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Namaste


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: What of those who haven't heard of Christ? [Re: Learyfan]
    #5530139 - 04/18/06 06:32 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I believe most Christians might say that those who never had a chance to hear of Jesus would be saved automatically. If that's true, then wouldn't it be better if no one was ever taught of Jesus? That way, you don't even run the risk of going to hell.

Tell me what you think.



"Most Christians" so called are wrong, and in fact have never been converted and they certainly do not believe the gospel as defined in Scriptures.

God has from eternity past determined to save a people from His righteous wrath. Scripture plainly states that all those who will inherit eternal life will hear and believe and be converted by the power of the Holy Spirit. The reason this truth is so fervently resisted by most so called "Christians" is because they have never been convicted of sin by the Spirit, for if they had been, they would know that it is entirely just for God to damn them and the entire race. They do not see themselves or others as deserving wrath, because they are ignorant of God's righteousness, and they do not believe the testimony of Scripture. Every elect vessel of mercy will in time be converted and believe the gospel, which is that Jesus Christ alone atoned for the sins of His people and that salvation is entirely apart from human merit and solely based on free sovereign grace.

Fallen man is born in sin, and is imputed guilty in Adam. This imputation precedes any works performed. Man is constituted already condemned judicially, and personal sins only testify of his fallen nature.

The demands of the law are stringent, and without mercy. God can not show mercy at the expense of His righteousness. This is why Christ had to come and take the full brunt of punishment on behalf of His people. This is the only way God can remain both just and at the same time justifier.

I hope that all those reading this may come to see the righteous demands of the law, and feel the weight of it, and the absolutely hopeless condition that they are in, and my then see the relief from the law and the mercy of God in the face of Jesus Christ.


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OfflineShroomerious
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Re: What of those who haven't heard of Christ? [Re: fivepointer]
    #5530178 - 04/18/06 06:44 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I am sorry but am I the only one who can not stand hearing that fairy-tale for the millionth time?


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: What of those who haven't heard of Christ? [Re: fivepointer]
    #5530232 - 04/18/06 07:04 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
I hope that all those reading this may come to see the righteous demands of the law, and feel the weight of it, and the absolutely hopeless condition that they are in, and my then see the relief from the law and the mercy of God in the face of Jesus Christ.



Actually, I think most people reading your posts will just see the ugly ignorance and intolerance that is fundamentalism.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: What of those who haven't heard of Christ? [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5530242 - 04/18/06 07:06 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I think it rather catholic (i.e., universal) and magnanimous of Augustine to see the "Christian religion" as the latest manifestation of the "Perennial Philosophy." Of course he would have this bias. After being a playboy and a Neoplatonist, and some nine years as a Manichean (they did not advance him in grade in that system), he became, at his mother's behest, a Christian. He developed the theology of the Holy Trinity and despite his psychological backlash at womankind, he was one of the most profound thinkers in Catholic Christianity.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: What of those who haven't heard of Christ? [Re: fivepointer]
    #5530584 - 04/18/06 08:57 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

whatever


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Namaste


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: What of those who haven't heard of Christ? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5530736 - 04/18/06 09:40 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)





"Actually, I think most people reading your posts will just see the ugly ignorance and intolerance that is fundamentalism."




Ever notice how only cops really like other cops, and lawyers only are able to like other lawyers? I think fundamentalists are another one of these groups. One has to identify strongly with being one of these roles to find another person with the same role as acceptable. Otherwise, everyone outside of that identity is regarded with suspicion, or is fair game to exploit or criticize, and who likes being regarded thusly? All roles exemplify different breeds of arrogance and different levels of morality: law-and-order morality, professional ethics at best with no personal morality, and superego morality projected onto a supernal male parent. Notice how these three groups find the serious psychedelic user particularly threatening to their individual power trips. We live in a world with fuzzy boundaries rather than stainless steel edges, yet general, global, intuitive sensibilities of Good and Evil are often so much more developed, like Compassion is Good and cruelty is Evil.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineJCoke
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Re: What of those who haven't heard of Christ? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5530897 - 04/18/06 10:15 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Romans 2:

5But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

14Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them. 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.


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hello, your name is life on earth
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"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: What of those who haven't heard of Christ? [Re: JCoke]
    #5531317 - 04/18/06 11:37 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

And YOUR point about Paul's letter to the Romans is with regard to my post?


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: What of those who haven't heard of Christ? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5534256 - 04/19/06 06:43 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

So do you guys think that those who have never heard of Christ get a free pass?






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Mp3 of the month:  Sons Of Adam - Feathered Fish



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OfflineBasilides
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Re: What of those who haven't heard of Christ? [Re: Learyfan]
    #5534533 - 04/19/06 07:49 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

God absorbs everything She can, that's how I sorta see it. If it mixes, it'll live. :smirk:


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"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: What of those who haven't heard of Christ? [Re: Learyfan]
    #5534821 - 04/19/06 08:50 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

To say that those who never heard of Christ will get a free pass is as absurd as to say that only Christians go to heaven.


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineDimmy
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Re: What of those who haven't heard of Christ? [Re: Basilides]
    #5534841 - 04/19/06 08:55 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Christians believe that those who died not knowing of jeebus would go to purgatory. Just read Dante's inferno, Cesar and Cleopatra where all chillin in the purg because they died before jeebus was around.

They also believe that the "second coming" cannot take place until every living soul has had a chance to hear the stories and accept jew boy into their heart.

just a little side note. Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism. basically Jews only believe in the Torah aka the "old testament" but, Christians believe in both old and new testaments. Judaism clearly outlines the things the Jewish messiah must complete and if he does not fulfill even one of those things, he cannot be considered the messiah. Perhaps the most important thing the messiah is to accomplish is to establish an era of total world peace as well as obviously reveal the godliness of all things and the presence of g-d himself. Did Jesus do this? Hell No. So very conveniently Christians make up the concept of the second coming, claiming that anything he didn't accomplish in his first run will be taken care of when he comes back. There is no such concept in the Torah. For Jews a Messiah who dies before completing all the necessary things is no messiah at all.


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:goose:


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OfflineJCoke
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Re: What of those who haven't heard of Christ? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5535066 - 04/19/06 09:40 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
And YOUR point about Paul's letter to the Romans is with regard to my post?




actully, I was responding to the original poster question, my bad.  :grin:


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hello, your name is life on earth
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"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: What of those who haven't heard of Christ? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5535537 - 04/19/06 11:24 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
To say that those who never heard of Christ will get a free pass is as absurd as to say that only Christians go to heaven.




I agree.


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InvisibleLakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Loc: mumuland
Re: What of those who haven't heard of Christ? [Re: Learyfan]
    #5536407 - 04/20/06 04:39 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:

....

I believe most Christians might say that those who never had a chance to hear of Jesus would be saved automatically. If that's true, then wouldn't it be better if no one was ever taught of Jesus? That way, you don't even run the risk of going to hell.

Tell me what you think.






I think Jesus is laughing at us for getting caught up on such questions. I think Jesus has cried ever since we could discuss what he really means within a Christian context -- that was when he was lost, that was when Christianity died.


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OfflineShroomerious
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Re: What of those who haven't heard of Christ? [Re: Lakefingers]
    #5536914 - 04/20/06 11:29 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Whatever gets you through the night.


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OfflineEmptySpace
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Registered: 04/20/06
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Re: What of those who haven't heard of Christ? [Re: Learyfan]
    #5539196 - 04/20/06 11:12 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

It is taught by Catholicism that Jesus Christ, The Holy Spirit, and God, are all one in nature. In body they are seperate, but to believe in one in essence is to believe in the other, in terms of their divine nature. So if you are Islamic, and believe in God, in reality by Catholic stand point, if you live by a certain morals, then you will be rewarded. Now I no longer practice Catholicism, but this philosophy allows some sort of buffer. So it depends on what you choose to believe, and not what other people insist it really is.


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We can't stop here - This is bat country.

-Duke--Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas


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