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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4085272 -

> From a Jungian perspective, Satan [Adversary] is GOD's Shadow.

Yeah, you're right.

> In the Gospel drama, Judas was the human embodiment of negative traits symbolized in one man.

I see his archetype as being basically a betrayer--tomething in the ego (excessive self-love? pride?) that resists individuation--yet, ironically, becomes instrumental in the transforming sacrifice.

<laugh> This may be a good illustration of why we have symbols--because what's going on can't always be expressed in simple rational terms.

btw, we also have an anti-christ archetype somewhere to consider.


--------------------
"We're all in this consciousness-raising business together."
"An idle mind is the devil's workshop."
"Everyone should eat hashish, but only once." - S. Dali

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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: wjames]
    #4085449 -

Anyone against the collective teachings of Christianity, and points out the fallacies and contradictions fits the anti-christ archetype right?


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4085699 -

The anti-Christ belongs to early Christian Apocalyptic literature. I tend not to be an Apocalypticist - not to see these visions as cataclysmic historical events, although, the part of Revelations wherein "...the stars of heaven fell unto the earth..." Revelations 6:13 is a very possible end to this planet if one interprets the Greek word 'aster' [star] to mean 'asteroids' because we know that some earth-shattering asteroids are heading in our direction (and hopefully we will have the technology to do something about them within the 800 years when the largest one is due to reach us).

The cosmic drama is tough to interpret inasmuch as the writers of Apocalyptic literature (Revelations is only one book, and almost was ejected from the canon because it is just too far out) lived in a very small universe with a pre-Copernican flat Earth, a dome of movable and immovable 'stars' with the throne of GOD above. Other worlds were blasphemous to contemplate, and the possibility of saviors on other worlds was beyond the pale and worthy of painful execution.

For us, the spirit of anti-Christ means more than the extermination of humanity (those 'Damien' films) - it is the ongoing battle of Good and evil beyond the earthly drama. This is not the Manichaen Ahura Mazda fighting the evil Ahriman, the Light and Dark sides of an equal Force, it is the mythic secession of 1/3 of the Heavenly Host and their banishment to Hell (you know, those Christopher Walken films where he plays the angel Gabriel [erroneously] a fallen angel). It seems like the anti-Christ is like the cosmic 'Nothing' ('The Neverending Story' - children's apocalyptic), the evil Dark Matter causing the Final Entropy and end to the expanding universe. Whatever. I prefer to see these writings in terms of Consciousness - symbols for approaching domains of awareness that far outstrip linear thought and language - the Transcendental.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4085716 -

Christ is such a wide ideal, he can be worshiped by anyone from hippies to hardcore christians, after all even christians only took parts of his teachings as their foundations, some other group can take some other parts.
Hell, even an union of free carpenters could be formed around christ

There is enough of christ for everyone, not just christians


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4085739 -

In 800 we'll have cities on these asteroids :smile:

I don't doubt that we will have technology to turn asteroids off course with automated craft in the next 50 years.
Even today we landed a craft on an asteroid (if I'm not mistaking)
so all it takes is a bomb or some diverting engine and the same kind of mission we do today

If those guys in US goverment felt chills in their spine, they'd go throwing money all over the place and something would be done for sure.

The only danger is if we find out that an asteroid is going to fall next week or next month, the we wouldn't have time to do anything

p.s. I wouldn't be suprized if such a thing would be done in sicrecy, and found out 50 years later to prevent panic


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Edited by OldWoodSpecter (04/22/05 04:48 PM)

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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4085865 -

What about that one guy born in 1857 born of a Virgin? Enough of him to go around as well :smirk:. I realize it's more the ideal, then the actual individual (even in terms of debate of the actual existance).

Anyhow, think that it is projected that in the year 2,200 an asteroid is due to impact with the earth... then their is always 2012... :shrug:

Might be a hidden blessing, give people the ability to start over completely. If it does happen and we're fucked as a result of it with no chance in hell of surviving in our current nature, we might as well look to the positive.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4085880 -

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/time/cwr/17603.htm (Believe it's this act, might have found the wrong link, but it has to do with moderation of the media, for "national security" purposes)

It was realized shortly after Hg Wells transmisison of the War of the Worlds (1938 which caused mass suicides), as well as the Roswell incident (1947). I'm not suggesting that it was in anyway tied to how aliens are viewed or anything... merely pointing out an odd coincidence :smile:.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Edited by Psychoactive1984 (04/22/05 05:41 PM)

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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4085933 -

Sorry, I don't believe in human parthenogenesis. Virgin births have been an obvious mythological flag for 'divine beings' throughout human history and Jesus in no exception.

Eventually, humanity will have to transcend its physical body, like the Good Book says, leave the Earth permanently, or remain and perish. Of course, what are the chances (given all the sci-fi I was raised on from the 1950's to present) that the Earth will be supporting any life, let alone human life by the time the Sun goes supernova? Can one imagine human life in a future that is further from the present than out origins from our primate ancestors?

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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4086008 -

:thumbup:

Not necessarily transcend the physical body, but most certainly transcend the physical restraints placed upon us.

1950's sci-fi kicks ass, especially all the flicks about what we'd be doing in the year 2000... still have a lot to own up to.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: tomk]
    #4086050 -

Yep...you've just discovered one of the many falacies of Christianity.

Sidenote: Back in Judea in the first century B.C.E., there was a sect known as the Zealots, or Isicarii,. This name came from the "shhhikt!" sound it would make when one of them would pull their dagger from their sleeve before assassinating a Roman supporter in the marketplace. It can also be translated as "daggerman".

Many think Judas's last name, Iscariot (similar in some regards sounding to Isicarii,), wasn't his real name, but one given to him after he turned in Jesus, leading to the Messiah's death. They were labeling Judas as a Zealot, or assassin.


--------------------
Thinking of opening and reusing or trying to save that contaminated jar? READ THIS FIRST and then decide if you want to or not.

Are you a visual learner? Is it easier to SEE than READ how to grow? Order this video then.

My MUST read information on Salvia. I have been a student of Her since 2001.

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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4086285 -

Psychoactive1984 said:
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/time/cwr/17603.htm (Believe it's this act, might have found the wrong link, but it has to do with moderation of the media, for "national security" purposes)

It was realized shortly after Hg Wells transmisison of the War of the Worlds (1938 which caused mass suicides), as well as the Roswell incident (1947). I'm not suggesting that it was in anyway tied to how aliens are viewed or anything... merely pointing out an odd coincidence :smile:.


I say if they think there is a reason to keep things quiet and deal with them in silence, let them, I'd rather hear on the news that
a meteor has been delt with last week than that they'll do it next week.

As for aliens, there are a lot of people that might not want to hear about them or things about them, so again I say let them keep anything quiet for the sake of stability.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4086306 -

"The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he never been born." Mark 14:21

God, if omniscient, constructed Judas with full foreknowledge that he would eventually betray Jesus and suffer God's wrath.

Seems unfair to Judas who presumably had no choice in the matter given God's foreknowledge...  :thumbdown:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: wjames]
    #4086327 -

Quote:

Jesus completely surrendered his will to that of the Father.  Judas didn't.




Right, and Judas was just another person treated as a worthless tool in God's pathway to proving he's boss.  :wink:


--------------------
Thinking of opening and reusing or trying to save that contaminated jar? READ THIS FIRST and then decide if you want to or not.

Are you a visual learner? Is it easier to SEE than READ how to grow? Order this video then.

My MUST read information on Salvia. I have been a student of Her since 2001.

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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: Todcasil]
    #4087318 -

Todcasil said:
im only speaking in regards to what is written in the bible, as i know it.

not a mishmosh of guru/christianity.

combining teh two in this fashion does nothing but speculate eastern views on a western (sic) myth.


Isn't Jesus a guru to his disciples? What exactly do you understand by guru?

Karma is action...bad karma is bad action...What are sins then?


What do you understand by "he died for our sins"? As i said before, a master can absorb the bad karma of others if he wishes to.

EDIT: misspellings!

Edited by Delusion_of_Self (04/25/05 10:03 AM)

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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #4087323 -

Won't that result in a rash?


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4087386 -

Psychoactive1984 said:
Anyone against the collective teachings of Christianity, and points out the fallacies and contradictions fits the anti-christ archetype right?


I see an Antichrist as a false Christ, or the antithesis of Christ.
Jung equated the Christ archetype with the "Self"--which tries to accomplish integration and individuation of the psyche. So maybe an Antichrist archetype would correspond to something internal that tries to organize the Psyche in some bad, dysfunctional, or "false" way.

Nero and/or Rome is often equated with the Antichrist. Maybe there is a part of us that corresponds to "Rome." -- like a part that seeks control, power, material wealth, etc. above all else.

Someone in another forum suggested that an anti-self would be a self that does not believe in God--which would get back to your idea.


--------------------
"We're all in this consciousness-raising business together."
"An idle mind is the devil's workshop."
"Everyone should eat hashish, but only once." - S. Dali

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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #4087414 -

Delusion_of_Self said:
Todcasil said:
im only speaking in regards to what is written in the bible, as i know it.

not a mishmosh of guru/christianity.

combining teh two in this fashion does nothing but speculate eastern views on a western (sic) myth.


Isn't Jesus a guru to his disciples? What exactly do you understand by guru?

Karma is action...bad karma is bad action...What are sins then?


What do you understand by "he died for a sins"? As i said before, a master can absorbs the bad karma of others if he wishes to.


he speaks of himself as the savior, not the guru.


--------------------
Men look at themselves and they see flawed humans, we look at women and we see perfect
GODDESSES
Women look at themselves and they seem utterly human, when looking at men they see proud
GODS.

~Casil



:cactus:

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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: myndreach]
    #4087424 -

myndreach said:
Back in Judea in the first century B.C.E., there was a sect known as the Zealots, or Isicarii...


Concerning Judas:

"Certain ancient heretics, whose opinion has been revived by some modern writers in a more plausible form, maintained...that Judas, who in common with the other disciples looked for a temporal kingdom of the Messiah, did not anticipate the death of Christ, but wished to precipitate a [political] crisis and hasten the hour of triumph, thinking that the arrest would provoke a rising of the people who would set Him free and place Him on the throne...And Origen strangely supposed that Judas hanged himself in order to seek Christ in the other world and ask His pardon."

Also, Judas tried to give back the 30 pieces of silver. That might suggest that he didn't expect Jesus to be treated so badly.


--------------------
"We're all in this consciousness-raising business together."
"An idle mind is the devil's workshop."
"Everyone should eat hashish, but only once." - S. Dali

Edited by wjames (04/23/05 02:05 AM)

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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: wjames]
    #4087429 -

Ok, thought you meant in terms of it's usual application (as anti Christian belief), not in terms of anti-Jesus's teachings.

Jesus was a good man whether he existed or not, I won't argue with that.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: myndreach]
    #4087492 -

myndreach said:
Right, and Judas was just another person treated as a worthless tool in God's pathway to proving he's boss.  :wink:


According to tradition, God tried making intelligent creatures without free will, but that was boring.  So then He thought it would be even more generous to make creatures with free will--Man.
The price paid for the gift of free will is that it would be possible to misuse it, as did Judas.

It is the existence of free will, then, that precisely demonstrates God's love, generosity, and willingess to share His divinity.

Christianity teaches that people are called to be gods themsevles--Sons of God in fact, not slaves.  That is clearly stated.


--------------------
"We're all in this consciousness-raising business together."
"An idle mind is the devil's workshop."
"Everyone should eat hashish, but only once." - S. Dali

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