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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: A hypothetical question for Christians [Re: ]
    #3617334 -

Quote:
in our modern day thinking?



that' just it...
the mindset, the weltshuang (SP?) of the people in the palestine under roman rule, was nothing like that of a modern product of "westciv"...

(word of the day:
eschaton
www.dictionary.com )


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old enough to know better
not old enough to care

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Re: A hypothetical question for Christians [Re: gnrm23]
    #3617355 -

gnrm23 said:
...
during the meal, he instructed their treasurer, judas, to leave & do what he must do quickly; & then went to the gethsemane garden to pray & await his "betrayal" & arrest...


please catch your breath at this point.

too much assumption and misunderstanding exists about what a prophecy or vision can be.

in fact I would venture to say 100% of all assumptions of what prophecies or visions of what will happen are are wrong.

those who struggle to rationalize deja vu are convinced that seers see events in advance like television or life-o-vision or dreams.

those who use oracles assume that codexes exist to be unravelled.

wrong and probably wrong.

christ - jesus - equal to buddha and many others known and not known, was advanced and sensitive enough to know that judas was itchy to leave and could see the dark mood brewing during the passover meal.

he helped judas relieve his tension by telling him to go.
that is it.

I truly doubt that he knew what was coming, but, as with all things, he addressed what followed with a dignity that is a very high example of humanity.

In keeping with the body of his teachings there is little to indicate that he would prefer people to imagine super human knowledge or unattainable abilities, instead his example of dignity is more of the core teaching of acceptance, dignity love generosity and clarity.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: A hypothetical question for Christians [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3617398 -

i was raised a christian, well... not exactly, but eventually chose to be one at the age of 8 or something. later on i quit because i had a really hard time believing in god and accepting so much hypocrisy of the church and its followers.
today i believe christ was a great man. but as far as you go in wisdom and transcendental knowledge, it's still hard to put it into words and make people understand it. he did his best, and a lot of good came from it, a lot of bad as well. maybe for all you strive you can never really change the world.

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Re: A hypothetical question for Christians [Re: ]
    #3618336 -

To those that would let him be murdered, where's your sense of compassion? Is it not the "Christ-like" thing to do to stop someone from being harmed or killed if you can?

just to let you know, his disciples did try to stop it, but jesus told them not to.

John 18:
1When he had finished praying, Jesus left with his disciples and crossed the Kidron Valley. On the other side there was an olive grove, and he and his disciples went into it.
2Now Judas, who betrayed him, knew the place, because Jesus had often met there with his disciples. 3So Judas came to the grove, guiding a detachment of soldiers and some officials from the chief priests and Pharisees. They were carrying torches, lanterns and weapons.

4Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to him, went out and asked them, ?Who is it you want??

5?Jesus of Nazareth,? they replied.

?I am he,? Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.) 6When Jesus said, ?I am he,? they drew back and fell to the ground.

7Again he asked them, ?Who is it you want??

And they said, ?Jesus of Nazareth.?

8?I told you that I am he,? Jesus answered. ?If you are looking for me, then let these men go.? 9This happened so that the words he had spoken would be fulfilled: ?I have not lost one of those you gave me.?[a]

10Then Simon Peter, who had a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's servant, cutting off his right ear. (The servant's name was Malchus.)

11Jesus commanded Peter, ?Put your sword away! Shall I not drink the cup the Father has given me??

I'm just having a lot of trouble understanding this mindset, where you would allow a man to be killed in order to fulfill a prophecy that may or may not be true.

now that I think about, I may have tried to stop it, I may very well have did what Simon Peter did, the thing is, like Simon Peter who believed Jesus was the messiah, would obey everything Jesus, the messiah says.

I also don't understand how Jesus's murder saves humanity from sin. It just doesn't make sense. (These logical inconsistencies were the reason I gave up Catholicism in my early teens. Someone has yet to make a logically sound explanation for this human sacrifice.)

yes, it's the whole modern day mindset thats why your confused, you see, in the old testement, God had his people sacrifice a clean, pure and perfect lamb (i think it was a lamb or something?), for forgiveness of sin, Jesus is now the lamb, therefore, symbolicly, Jesus death was the lamb being sacrificed...witch is why we don't do animal sacrifices anymore, God had us do the animal sacrifice he was just doing that so we would understand what Jesus death would mean...I think? I'm not the best theologin here if someone more familier with this whole thing would please explain it better that would be great.


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hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.

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Re: A hypothetical question for Christians [Re: JCoke]
    #3619655 -

Well that's interesting. I didn't know (or forgot?) that Jesus's disciples tried to stop him.

However, your explanation of the lamb still doesn't explain how sacrificing life forgives sin.

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Re: A hypothetical question for Christians [Re: ]
    #3619765 -

If I was there at the time I would do what I could, though in all liklihood I wouldn't be able to stop the crucifixion if it was already determined and been foreseen to happen.

However, nobody said anything about Jesus dying for people's sins until the book of John was written, almost 100 years later. As best as I can surmise based on historical evidence I have seen, Jesus wasn't out wanting to get crucified, and he didn't really care about whether people believed in HIM, but rather his message.

Perhaps he saw his own martyrdom, but i don't think it had anything to do with taking on the sins of mankind and people believing in him. He was like a Buddha in the wrong place and time that history misinterpreted.


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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."

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Re: A hypothetical question for Christians [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3619819 -

Then again, maybe it's just a story, maybe the historical man we know as Jesus was never crucified, and maybe there's no such thing as sin...

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Re: A hypothetical question for Christians [Re: ]
    #3619930 -

ive always been interested in death for our sins theory. if he died for our sins...then we are , from the moment of his death...not guilty of any sin we may commit? like a "get of of sins free card?"

if he died for MY sins...then its all taken care of and i shouldnt worry too much about them...?

i'm not up to date on my theology and certianly not xtianity, so a bit of clearity...how does the catholic or protostant, etc mormon what have you church define how this works?


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Do as i say. Do as i do.
Good. Now instead of eating a mushroom that is not yours. Eat the ones in the super market. Thanks. -droz
"German's love white rice."-droz

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Re: A hypothetical question for Christians [Re: Swami]
    #3620604 -

Swami said:
This type of scenario says that the Romans had NO CHOICE, but to kill him. This doesn't seem like any sort of free will nor personal responsibility. Are all killers part of the divine plan (i.e. pawns in a cosmic chess game) ?


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

No it means that God brought Jesus to life in the right moment of time for this certain thing to happen... we still have plenty of choice


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Re: A hypothetical question for Christians [Re: ld50negative1]
    #3621437 -

Max, did you say you would free Him, or try to?

and who else answered the thing about whether or not you'd kill baby Hitler? I didn't actually read that thread really, but I'm interested to know if people who would have killed Hitler, by interfering, would in turn have left Jesus alive to die for our sins, by not interfering.

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Re: A hypothetical question for Christians [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3623021 -

I didn't say, but I would free him if he wanted to be freed. If he wished to die I'd let him die, to respect his free will.

And I wouldn't kill baby Hitler or adult Hitler because this is also interfering his free will to live. I'll admit, though, that for the "greater good" I would attempt (if I were able) to restrain or retain those associated with the Holocaust so that they don't infringe on millions of others' free will who were killed, if you get what I'm saying. Like, go to all lengths possible except death to prevent the deaths of others. This is theoretical though, because I know in the "real world" many of the Nazis were willing to defend to the death what they were doing.

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Re: A hypothetical question for Christians [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3623074 -

max and greenpastures,

If you admit that your guilty of sin, and believe in Jesus, Than Jesus becomes the pure and clean lamb (hence the term, "lamb of God").

by believing in Jesus, your sins are forgiven, because Jesus is the sacrificed lamb, and Jesus (the Messiah), God and the holy spirit are all one and the same, that is why it's Jesus that's forgiving sins by his death...and so not just anybody can blow there brains out and say there God and the world be saved from sin...you would have to be God to forgive sin...and God the the messiah, and the messiah the lamb, and the lamb the (symbolic) forgiveness of sins.

that is how Jesus death saves mankind from sin.

it's not so much that sacrificing life forgives sin, only God forgives sin, I think God had the people do that just so they could recognize there sins, and so they could make a point that they need to be forgiven of them...I think sacrifice is more symbolic than atcully being forgiven of sins by killing something...

Jesus is the new covenant, the old covenant was sacrificing lambs aswhell as all the rest of the OT laws and traditions, by believiing in the new covenant (Jesus), you're following the old covenant in a nut shell.

i'm really talking out of my ass here, if you really wanna better answer try some christian websites, like christianity.com, try the forums there.


--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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