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Offlinetomk
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Judas and Jesus
    #4083910 - 04/22/05 03:25 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

So, I have a thought. In christian mythology, each of the following seem to be true:

Judas betrayed Jesus.
As a result of this betrayal, Judas is sent to hell.
Judas's betraying jesus is necessary for jesus to have been crucified.
If jesus were not crucified, then salvation would not be possible.
Jesus knew Judas would betray him beforehand
Jesus suffered less on the cross than Judas will in hell.

Well, you start to tally it up, it looks like Judas, not Jesus is the one who is suffering for everyones sins. Both him and Jesus had a part in the crucification that lead to the possibility of salvation. Who payed more? Judas did. In betraying Jesus, Judas made salvation possible and went to hell forever. So, Judas and not Jesus should be the figure those who focus on salvation should worship. After all, Judas payed a much higher price for you to be able to obtain salvation then jesus did.


--------------------
"I am eternally free"

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Offlineegghead1
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: tomk]
    #4083916 - 04/22/05 03:32 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

:lol: Very Insightful. All praises to Judas who was sent to hell for his sins, so that we can gain salvation from our own sins through Jesus Christ. :lol:


--------------------
All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!

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Offlinebumski
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: tomk]
    #4083950 - 04/22/05 04:22 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Mu.


--------------------
Cheech: Hey man, the house is bein' raided man! opsCays! You hear me man? get-outski!

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Offlinewjames
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: tomk]
    #4083958 - 04/22/05 04:29 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

> As a result of this betrayal, Judas is sent to hell.

I don't know that the Bible says that anywhere. It does say, "it would have been better for that person [Judas] had he never been born."

>it looks like Judas, not Jesus is the one who is suffering for everyones sins.

Jesus completely surrendered his will to that of the Father. Judas didn't.



--------------------
"We're all in this consciousness-raising business together."
"An idle mind is the devil's workshop."
"Everyone should eat hashish, but only once." - S. Dali

Edited by wjames (04/22/05 04:34 AM)

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OfflineTodcasil
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: tomk]
    #4083966 - 04/22/05 04:43 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

tomk said:
So, I have a thought.  In christian mythology, each of the following seem to be true:

Judas betrayed Jesus.
As a result of this betrayal, Judas is sent to hell.
Judas's betraying jesus is necessary for jesus to have been crucified.
If jesus were not crucified, then salvation would not be possible.
Jesus knew Judas would betray him beforehand
Jesus suffered less on the cross than Judas will in hell.

Well, you start to tally it up, it looks like Judas, not Jesus is the one who is suffering for everyones sins.  Both him and Jesus had a part in the crucification that lead to the possibility of salvation.  Who payed more?  Judas did.  In betraying Jesus, Judas made salvation possible and went to hell forever.  So, Judas and not Jesus should be the figure those who focus on salvation should worship.  After all, Judas payed a much higher price for you to be able to obtain salvation then jesus did.




that was awesome.

:heart:


--------------------
Men look at themselves and they see flawed humans, we look at women and we see perfect
GODDESSES
Women look at themselves and they seem utterly human, when looking at men they see proud
GODS.


~Casil



:cactus:

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OfflineDelusion_of_Self
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: Todcasil]
    #4083971 - 04/22/05 04:46 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

If Jesus knew of Judas betrayal then crucifiction did not really depend on Judas but Jesus.


--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar

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OfflineTodcasil
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #4083978 - 04/22/05 04:50 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

the question is, did judas know his role? did he betray jesus beacause he did not believe in his sovregnity? or did he betray him beacuse he knew it must be done to save mankind.

probably the formor...

but it was a fun argument, right? :smile:


--------------------
Men look at themselves and they see flawed humans, we look at women and we see perfect
GODDESSES
Women look at themselves and they seem utterly human, when looking at men they see proud
GODS.


~Casil



:cactus:

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OfflineDelusion_of_Self
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: Todcasil]
    #4083987 - 04/22/05 05:00 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I disagree...from my point of view there's no eternal hell. No relative action could result in an absolute hell. Judas payed solely for his bad karma. A master has the power to absorb bad karma of his disciples...after all what is the job of a Guru if not to lead his disciples to God.


--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar

Edited by Delusion_of_Self (04/22/05 05:02 AM)

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OfflineTodcasil
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #4083998 - 04/22/05 05:14 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

im only speaking in regards to what is written in the bible, as i know it.

not a mishmosh of guru/christianity.

combining teh two in this fashion does nothing but speculate eastern views on a western (sic) myth.


--------------------
Men look at themselves and they see flawed humans, we look at women and we see perfect
GODDESSES
Women look at themselves and they seem utterly human, when looking at men they see proud
GODS.


~Casil



:cactus:

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: tomk]
    #4084032 - 04/22/05 06:08 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

"The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he never been born." Mark 14:21 (page 777 for the Crowleyites)

Judas [Jude] is a Shadow figure in the Jungian sense. He is under Geburah (Severity) on the Kabbalistic Tree while Jesus is under Chesed [or Gedulah] (Mercy). The Wrath and the Grace of GOD are juxtaposed in this Conjunctio Oppositorum - two Spheres opposite one another on the Pillars of Severity and Mercy respectively. Since people here are referring to 'Christian mythology,' BUT speaking quite literally about these figures, I thought that I would intersperse the esoteric dimension to these figures. It just will not do to attempt a disconnect by using the word 'mythology' and then proceed to discuss the story quite literally. There is a psychological dissonance going on (not pointing at anyone in particular, just a strong tendency).

Questioning the intentionality of 'mythological' figures does not make ANY sense, while questioning historical figures' intentionality does. Which ontological category does one wish to discuss? Otherwise it is apples-to-oranges. Is this going to be psycho-history or mythology?


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: tomk]
    #4084041 - 04/22/05 06:28 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Did Judas have a last name? Or is that a call-sign?


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: tomk]
    #4084046 - 04/22/05 06:32 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Who said Judas went to hell?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: psyka]
    #4084052 - 04/22/05 06:34 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

psyka said:
Did Judas have a last name? Or is that a call-sign?




Iscariot


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4084057 - 04/22/05 06:38 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)



--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4084248 - 04/22/05 08:33 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Quote:

psyka said:
Did Judas have a last name? Or is that a call-sign?




Iscariot




judah ish kerioth...
the name of his region of origin...
the treasurer of the band was this one called judah, keeper of the common funds of the master and his disciples...
one much trusted by all, & certainly by their rabbi...
as to what motivated him to betray his master into the hands of the civil authorities, to be executed, (or at least, to suffer grievously) under the law of rome... well, in one passion telling, we was sent into the night from that last meal, instructed to do what he must & that quickly...
~
~~
~~~
in the thought-provoking nikos kazanttzakis novel (& the martin scorcese movie version) _the last temptation of christ_ the character development of judas is second only to that of jesus...
jesus is tormented by the question of how to relate to the forces driving him... while judas is tormented by the question of whether to kill his friend jesus as commanded by his zealot superiors (including perhaps saul of tarsus?) or to follow him as the annointed one of israel, come to establish the kingdom of the righteous on earth (and in the process eliminating the cursed romans from the holy land!)

and then jesus commands judas to turn him over to the authorites, for it is neccessary that the son of man suffer at the hands of the unrighteous ones; & when judas asks "why me, master?", he is told that none of the others is strong enough to do what must be done...


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care

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OfflineJCoke
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: gnrm23]
    #4084258 - 04/22/05 08:42 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I guess jesus could have been talking about the guilt the one who betrays him will feel...after all, judas killed himself (depending on the gospel you read..) out of guilt..

anyways, the same could be said about anyone going to hell, jesus lived for about 35 years, so at the most it was 35 years of a crappy life on earth, everyone else that goes to hell lives for enternity there...what ever happend to an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth...??


--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.

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Offlinewjames
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4084335 - 04/22/05 09:04 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Judas [Jude] is a Shadow figure in the Jungian sense.




I think you're on the right track. Do you think Judas is just the Shadow? Or does he represent some more specific Archetype? I think of Satan more as the Shadow. Judas is a betrayer--that's different. Maybe he's like an active agent of the Shadow which seeks to undermine the Jesus Archetype. It's interesting. I'd guess Jung talks about this somewhere.


--------------------
"We're all in this consciousness-raising business together."
"An idle mind is the devil's workshop."
"Everyone should eat hashish, but only once." - S. Dali

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: gnrm23]
    #4084719 - 04/22/05 11:30 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Alternative:

Iscariot - Sicari (the Sicarii were Jewish assassins, as Barabbas [Bar-abba: son of the father] was supposed to have been). Meaning inside of meanings.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: wjames]
    #4084732 - 04/22/05 11:33 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

From a Jungian perspective, Satan [Adversary] is GOD's Shadow. In the Gospel drama, Judas was the human embodiment of negative traits symbolized in one man.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: tomk]
    #4085162 - 04/22/05 01:51 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

You know what this means?

New revolutionary icons of Judas burning in hell, hanging on a necklace!!!


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Offlinewjames
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4085272 - 04/22/05 02:18 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

> From a Jungian perspective, Satan [Adversary] is GOD's Shadow.

Yeah, you're right.

> In the Gospel drama, Judas was the human embodiment of negative traits symbolized in one man.

I see his archetype as being basically a betrayer--tomething in the ego (excessive self-love? pride?) that resists individuation--yet, ironically, becomes instrumental in the transforming sacrifice.

<laugh> This may be a good illustration of why we have symbols--because what's going on can't always be expressed in simple rational terms.

btw, we also have an anti-christ archetype somewhere to consider.


--------------------
"We're all in this consciousness-raising business together."
"An idle mind is the devil's workshop."
"Everyone should eat hashish, but only once." - S. Dali

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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: wjames]
    #4085449 - 04/22/05 03:16 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Anyone against the collective teachings of Christianity, and points out the fallacies and contradictions fits the anti-christ archetype right?


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4085699 - 04/22/05 04:36 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

The anti-Christ belongs to early Christian Apocalyptic literature. I tend not to be an Apocalypticist - not to see these visions as cataclysmic historical events, although, the part of Revelations wherein "...the stars of heaven fell unto the earth..." Revelations 6:13 is a very possible end to this planet if one interprets the Greek word 'aster' [star] to mean 'asteroids' because we know that some earth-shattering asteroids are heading in our direction (and hopefully we will have the technology to do something about them within the 800 years when the largest one is due to reach us).

The cosmic drama is tough to interpret inasmuch as the writers of Apocalyptic literature (Revelations is only one book, and almost was ejected from the canon because it is just too far out) lived in a very small universe with a pre-Copernican flat Earth, a dome of movable and immovable 'stars' with the throne of GOD above. Other worlds were blasphemous to contemplate, and the possibility of saviors on other worlds was beyond the pale and worthy of painful execution.

For us, the spirit of anti-Christ means more than the extermination of humanity (those 'Damien' films) - it is the ongoing battle of Good and evil beyond the earthly drama. This is not the Manichaen Ahura Mazda fighting the evil Ahriman, the Light and Dark sides of an equal Force, it is the mythic secession of 1/3 of the Heavenly Host and their banishment to Hell (you know, those Christopher Walken films where he plays the angel Gabriel [erroneously] a fallen angel). It seems like the anti-Christ is like the cosmic 'Nothing' ('The Neverending Story' - children's apocalyptic), the evil Dark Matter causing the Final Entropy and end to the expanding universe. Whatever. I prefer to see these writings in terms of Consciousness - symbols for approaching domains of awareness that far outstrip linear thought and language - the Transcendental.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4085716 - 04/22/05 04:41 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Christ is such a wide ideal, he can be worshiped by anyone from hippies to hardcore christians, after all even christians only took parts of his teachings as their foundations, some other group can take some other parts.
Hell, even an union of free carpenters could be formed around christ

There is enough of christ for everyone, not just christians


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4085739 - 04/22/05 04:45 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

In 800 we'll have cities on these asteroids :smile:

I don't doubt that we will have technology to turn asteroids off course with automated craft in the next 50 years.
Even today we landed a craft on an asteroid (if I'm not mistaking)
so all it takes is a bomb or some diverting engine and the same kind of mission we do today

If those guys in US goverment felt chills in their spine, they'd go throwing money all over the place and something would be done for sure.

The only danger is if we find out that an asteroid is going to fall next week or next month, the we wouldn't have time to do anything

p.s. I wouldn't be suprized if such a thing would be done in sicrecy, and found out 50 years later to prevent panic


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Edited by OldWoodSpecter (04/22/05 04:48 PM)

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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4085865 - 04/22/05 05:30 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

What about that one guy born in 1857 born of a Virgin? Enough of him to go around as well :smirk:. I realize it's more the ideal, then the actual individual (even in terms of debate of the actual existance).

Anyhow, think that it is projected that in the year 2,200 an asteroid is due to impact with the earth... then their is always 2012... :shrug:

Might be a hidden blessing, give people the ability to start over completely. If it does happen and we're fucked as a result of it with no chance in hell of surviving in our current nature, we might as well look to the positive.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4085880 - 04/22/05 05:35 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/time/cwr/17603.htm (Believe it's this act, might have found the wrong link, but it has to do with moderation of the media, for "national security" purposes)

It was realized shortly after Hg Wells transmisison of the War of the Worlds (1938 which caused mass suicides), as well as the Roswell incident (1947). I'm not suggesting that it was in anyway tied to how aliens are viewed or anything... merely pointing out an odd coincidence :smile:.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Edited by Psychoactive1984 (04/22/05 05:41 PM)

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4085933 - 04/22/05 05:58 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Sorry, I don't believe in human parthenogenesis. Virgin births have been an obvious mythological flag for 'divine beings' throughout human history and Jesus in no exception.

Eventually, humanity will have to transcend its physical body, like the Good Book says, leave the Earth permanently, or remain and perish. Of course, what are the chances (given all the sci-fi I was raised on from the 1950's to present) that the Earth will be supporting any life, let alone human life by the time the Sun goes supernova? Can one imagine human life in a future that is further from the present than out origins from our primate ancestors?

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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4086008 - 04/22/05 06:23 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

:thumbup:

Not necessarily transcend the physical body, but most certainly transcend the physical restraints placed upon us.

1950's sci-fi kicks ass, especially all the flicks about what we'd be doing in the year 2000... still have a lot to own up to.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Invisiblemyndreach
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: tomk]
    #4086050 - 04/22/05 06:42 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Yep...you've just discovered one of the many falacies of Christianity.

Sidenote: Back in Judea in the first century B.C.E., there was a sect known as the Zealots, or Isicarii,. This name came from the "shhhikt!" sound it would make when one of them would pull their dagger from their sleeve before assassinating a Roman supporter in the marketplace. It can also be translated as "daggerman".

Many think Judas's last name, Iscariot (similar in some regards sounding to Isicarii,), wasn't his real name, but one given to him after he turned in Jesus, leading to the Messiah's death. They were labeling Judas as a Zealot, or assassin.

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4086285 - 04/22/05 08:05 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Psychoactive1984 said:
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/time/cwr/17603.htm (Believe it's this act, might have found the wrong link, but it has to do with moderation of the media, for "national security" purposes)

It was realized shortly after Hg Wells transmisison of the War of the Worlds (1938 which caused mass suicides), as well as the Roswell incident (1947). I'm not suggesting that it was in anyway tied to how aliens are viewed or anything... merely pointing out an odd coincidence :smile:.




I say if they think there is a reason to keep things quiet and deal with them in silence, let them, I'd rather hear on the news that
a meteor has been delt with last week than that they'll do it next week.

As for aliens, there are a lot of people that might not want to hear about them or things about them, so again I say let them keep anything quiet for the sake of stability.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4086306 - 04/22/05 08:10 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

"The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he never been born." Mark 14:21

God, if omniscient, constructed Judas with full foreknowledge that he would eventually betray Jesus and suffer God's wrath.

Seems unfair to Judas who presumably had no choice in the matter given God's foreknowledge...  :thumbdown:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Invisiblemyndreach
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: wjames]
    #4086327 - 04/22/05 08:16 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:


Jesus completely surrendered his will to that of the Father.  Judas didn't.






Right, and Judas was just another person treated as a worthless tool in God's pathway to proving he's boss.  :wink:

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OfflineDelusion_of_Self
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: Todcasil]
    #4087318 - 04/23/05 01:17 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Todcasil said:
im only speaking in regards to what is written in the bible, as i know it.

not a mishmosh of guru/christianity.

combining teh two in this fashion does nothing but speculate eastern views on a western (sic) myth.




Isn't Jesus a guru to his disciples? What exactly do you understand by guru?

Karma is action...bad karma is bad action...What are sins then?


What do you understand by "he died for our sins"? As i said before, a master can absorb the bad karma of others if he wishes to.

EDIT: misspellings!

Edited by Delusion_of_Self (04/25/05 10:03 AM)

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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #4087323 - 04/23/05 01:20 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Won't that result in a rash?


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Offlinewjames
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4087386 - 04/23/05 01:47 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Psychoactive1984 said:
Anyone against the collective teachings of Christianity, and points out the fallacies and contradictions fits the anti-christ archetype right?



I see an Antichrist as a false Christ, or the antithesis of Christ.
Jung equated the Christ archetype with the "Self"--which tries to accomplish integration and individuation of the psyche. So maybe an Antichrist archetype would correspond to something internal that tries to organize the Psyche in some bad, dysfunctional, or "false" way.

Nero and/or Rome is often equated with the Antichrist. Maybe there is a part of us that corresponds to "Rome." -- like a part that seeks control, power, material wealth, etc. above all else.

Someone in another forum suggested that an anti-self would be a self that does not believe in God--which would get back to your idea.


--------------------
"We're all in this consciousness-raising business together."
"An idle mind is the devil's workshop."
"Everyone should eat hashish, but only once." - S. Dali

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OfflineTodcasil
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #4087414 - 04/23/05 01:57 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Delusion_of_Self said:
Quote:

Todcasil said:
im only speaking in regards to what is written in the bible, as i know it.

not a mishmosh of guru/christianity.

combining teh two in this fashion does nothing but speculate eastern views on a western (sic) myth.




Isn't Jesus a guru to his disciples? What exactly do you understand by guru?

Karma is action...bad karma is bad action...What are sins then?


What do you understand by "he died for a sins"? As i said before, a master can absorbs the bad karma of others if he wishes to.




he speaks of himself as the savior, not the guru.


--------------------
Men look at themselves and they see flawed humans, we look at women and we see perfect
GODDESSES
Women look at themselves and they seem utterly human, when looking at men they see proud
GODS.


~Casil



:cactus:

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Offlinewjames
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: myndreach]
    #4087424 - 04/23/05 02:01 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

myndreach said:
Back in Judea in the first century B.C.E., there was a sect known as the Zealots, or Isicarii...




Concerning Judas:

"Certain ancient heretics, whose opinion has been revived by some modern writers in a more plausible form, maintained...that Judas, who in common with the other disciples looked for a temporal kingdom of the Messiah, did not anticipate the death of Christ, but wished to precipitate a [political] crisis and hasten the hour of triumph, thinking that the arrest would provoke a rising of the people who would set Him free and place Him on the throne...And Origen strangely supposed that Judas hanged himself in order to seek Christ in the other world and ask His pardon."

Also, Judas tried to give back the 30 pieces of silver. That might suggest that he didn't expect Jesus to be treated so badly.


--------------------
"We're all in this consciousness-raising business together."
"An idle mind is the devil's workshop."
"Everyone should eat hashish, but only once." - S. Dali

Edited by wjames (04/23/05 02:05 AM)

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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: wjames]
    #4087429 - 04/23/05 02:02 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Ok, thought you meant in terms of it's usual application (as anti Christian belief), not in terms of anti-Jesus's teachings.

Jesus was a good man whether he existed or not, I won't argue with that.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Offlinewjames
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: myndreach]
    #4087492 - 04/23/05 02:16 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

myndreach said:
Right, and Judas was just another person treated as a worthless tool in God's pathway to proving he's boss.  :wink:




According to tradition, God tried making intelligent creatures without free will, but that was boring.  So then He thought it would be even more generous to make creatures with free will--Man.
The price paid for the gift of free will is that it would be possible to misuse it, as did Judas.

It is the existence of free will, then, that precisely demonstrates God's love, generosity, and willingess to share His divinity.

Christianity teaches that people are called to be gods themsevles--Sons of God in fact, not slaves.  That is clearly stated.


--------------------
"We're all in this consciousness-raising business together."
"An idle mind is the devil's workshop."
"Everyone should eat hashish, but only once." - S. Dali

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OfflineDelusion_of_Self
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: Todcasil]
    #4087618 - 04/23/05 03:00 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Todcasil said:
Quote:

Delusion_of_Self said:
Quote:

Todcasil said:
im only speaking in regards to what is written in the bible, as i know it.

not a mishmosh of guru/christianity.

combining teh two in this fashion does nothing but speculate eastern views on a western (sic) myth.




Isn't Jesus a guru to his disciples? What exactly do you understand by guru?

Karma is action...bad karma is bad action...What are sins then?


What do you understand by "he died for a sins"? As i said before, a master can absorbs the bad karma of others if he wishes to.




he speaks of himself as the savior, not the guru.




Savior: A person who rescues another from harm, danger, or loss.

Isn't Jesus path supposed to lead you to God?

Guru: Is a teacher or guide.

A guru in the spiritual sense is one who knows the way and thus can lead others to God.

The difference you see is really subjective and not objective. Isn't the objective the same?


--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar

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OfflineDelusion_of_Self
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: Todcasil]
    #4087640 - 04/23/05 03:12 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Todcasil said:
Quote:

Delusion_of_Self said:
Quote:

Todcasil said:
im only speaking in regards to what is written in the bible, as i know it.

not a mishmosh of guru/christianity.

combining teh two in this fashion does nothing but speculate eastern views on a western (sic) myth.




Isn't Jesus a guru to his disciples? What exactly do you understand by guru?

Karma is action...bad karma is bad action...What are sins then?


What do you understand by "he died for a sins"? As i said before, a master can absorbs the bad karma of others if he wishes to.




he speaks of himself as the savior, not the guru.





How can the absolute be different from itself?

Both a Guru and the Savior -- Jesus -- are one with the Universal Consciousness. I agree with you then...Jesus is The Savior...there is no other...but so is any Real Guru...he is the only Savior or Guru in the sense that if they are one with God then that means they are in essence the same, hence One absolute. From a limited perspective, that is a materialistic one, they are different but this can be deceiving...


--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar

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Invisiblemyndreach
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: wjames]
    #4088501 - 04/23/05 01:10 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

wjames said:
Quote:

myndreach said:
Right, and Judas was just another person treated as a worthless tool in God's pathway to proving he's boss.  :wink:




According to tradition, God tried making intelligent creatures without free will, but that was boring. 




Right, the angels some say.

Quote:

So then He thought it would be even more generous to make creatures with free will--Man.
The price paid for the gift of free will is that it would be possible to misuse it, as did Judas.




Right...and this misuse and suffering because of freewill's misuse is all part of God's plan.

Quote:

It is the existence of free will, then, that precisely demonstrates God's love, generosity, and willingess to share His divinity.




Or his cruel nature and love of a good joke in which untold billions suffer for all of eternity as a result of said joke.

Quote:

Christianity teaches that people are called to be gods themsevles--Sons of God in fact, not slaves.  That is clearly stated.




To be gods? This is not clearly stated in any religious text I've read before from Christianity. I suppose maybe some gnosticism could point that way, but that is far from mainstream Christianity.

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Offlinewjames
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: myndreach]
    #4094211 - 04/25/05 04:14 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

myndreach said:
To be gods? This is not clearly stated in any religious text I've read before from Christianity. I suppose maybe some gnosticism could point that way, but that is far from mainstream Christianity.




John 10:34
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

John 14:10
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do;

I would agree that it's mildly gnostic--but so is the whole Gospel of John. As for "mainstream Christianity"--what's that? Is it what the average Christian believes? That doesn't mean diddly.


--------------------
"We're all in this consciousness-raising business together."
"An idle mind is the devil's workshop."
"Everyone should eat hashish, but only once." - S. Dali

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Offlinewjames
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #4094213 - 04/25/05 04:20 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Delusion_of_Self said:A guru in the spiritual sense is one who knows the way and thus can lead others to God.

The difference you see is really subjective and not objective. Isn't the objective the same?




In Christianity, Jesus' life, passion, death and resurrection effected a cosmic change that enables a persons salvation. Jesus is thus more than a teacher. He pays the karmic debt.


--------------------
"We're all in this consciousness-raising business together."
"An idle mind is the devil's workshop."
"Everyone should eat hashish, but only once." - S. Dali

Edited by wjames (04/25/05 04:22 AM)

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OfflineDelusion_of_Self
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: wjames]
    #4094754 - 04/25/05 10:40 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

wjames said:
Quote:

Delusion_of_Self said:A guru in the spiritual sense is one who knows the way and thus can lead others to God.

The difference you see is really subjective and not objective. Isn't the objective the same?




In Christianity, Jesus' life, passion, death and resurrection effected a cosmic change that enables a persons salvation. Jesus is thus more than a teacher. He pays the karmic debt.




You have essentially repeated what I said. Read my previews comments in this thread.


--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar

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