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Offlinetomk
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Judas and Jesus
    #4083910 - 04/22/05 05:25 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

So, I have a thought. In christian mythology, each of the following seem to be true:

Judas betrayed Jesus.
As a result of this betrayal, Judas is sent to hell.
Judas's betraying jesus is necessary for jesus to have been crucified.
If jesus were not crucified, then salvation would not be possible.
Jesus knew Judas would betray him beforehand
Jesus suffered less on the cross than Judas will in hell.

Well, you start to tally it up, it looks like Judas, not Jesus is the one who is suffering for everyones sins. Both him and Jesus had a part in the crucification that lead to the possibility of salvation. Who payed more? Judas did. In betraying Jesus, Judas made salvation possible and went to hell forever. So, Judas and not Jesus should be the figure those who focus on salvation should worship. After all, Judas payed a much higher price for you to be able to obtain salvation then jesus did.


--------------------
"I am eternally free"


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Offlineegghead1
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: tomk]
    #4083916 - 04/22/05 05:32 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

:lol: Very Insightful. All praises to Judas who was sent to hell for his sins, so that we can gain salvation from our own sins through Jesus Christ. :lol:


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All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!


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Offlinebumski
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: tomk]
    #4083950 - 04/22/05 06:22 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Mu.


--------------------
Cheech: Hey man, the house is bein' raided man! opsCays! You hear me man? get-outski!


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Offlinewjames
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Registered: 02/16/05
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: tomk]
    #4083958 - 04/22/05 06:29 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

> As a result of this betrayal, Judas is sent to hell.

I don't know that the Bible says that anywhere. It does say, "it would have been better for that person [Judas] had he never been born."

>it looks like Judas, not Jesus is the one who is suffering for everyones sins.

Jesus completely surrendered his will to that of the Father. Judas didn't.



--------------------
"We're all in this consciousness-raising business together."
"An idle mind is the devil's workshop."
"Everyone should eat hashish, but only once." - S. Dali


Edited by wjames (04/22/05 06:34 AM)


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OfflineTodcasil
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: tomk]
    #4083966 - 04/22/05 06:43 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

tomk said:
So, I have a thought.  In christian mythology, each of the following seem to be true:

Judas betrayed Jesus.
As a result of this betrayal, Judas is sent to hell.
Judas's betraying jesus is necessary for jesus to have been crucified.
If jesus were not crucified, then salvation would not be possible.
Jesus knew Judas would betray him beforehand
Jesus suffered less on the cross than Judas will in hell.

Well, you start to tally it up, it looks like Judas, not Jesus is the one who is suffering for everyones sins.  Both him and Jesus had a part in the crucification that lead to the possibility of salvation.  Who payed more?  Judas did.  In betraying Jesus, Judas made salvation possible and went to hell forever.  So, Judas and not Jesus should be the figure those who focus on salvation should worship.  After all, Judas payed a much higher price for you to be able to obtain salvation then jesus did.




that was awesome.

:heart:


--------------------
Men look at themselves and they see flawed humans, we look at women and we see perfect
GODDESSES
Women look at themselves and they seem utterly human, when looking at men they see proud
GODS.


~Casil



:cactus:


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OfflineDelusion_of_Self
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: Todcasil]
    #4083971 - 04/22/05 06:46 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

If Jesus knew of Judas betrayal then crucifiction did not really depend on Judas but Jesus.


--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar


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OfflineTodcasil
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #4083978 - 04/22/05 06:50 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

the question is, did judas know his role? did he betray jesus beacause he did not believe in his sovregnity? or did he betray him beacuse he knew it must be done to save mankind.

probably the formor...

but it was a fun argument, right? :smile:


--------------------
Men look at themselves and they see flawed humans, we look at women and we see perfect
GODDESSES
Women look at themselves and they seem utterly human, when looking at men they see proud
GODS.


~Casil



:cactus:


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OfflineDelusion_of_Self
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: Todcasil]
    #4083987 - 04/22/05 07:00 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I disagree...from my point of view there's no eternal hell. No relative action could result in an absolute hell. Judas payed solely for his bad karma. A master has the power to absorb bad karma of his disciples...after all what is the job of a Guru if not to lead his disciples to God.


--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar


Edited by Delusion_of_Self (04/22/05 07:02 AM)


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OfflineTodcasil
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #4083998 - 04/22/05 07:14 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

im only speaking in regards to what is written in the bible, as i know it.

not a mishmosh of guru/christianity.

combining teh two in this fashion does nothing but speculate eastern views on a western (sic) myth.


--------------------
Men look at themselves and they see flawed humans, we look at women and we see perfect
GODDESSES
Women look at themselves and they seem utterly human, when looking at men they see proud
GODS.


~Casil



:cactus:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: tomk]
    #4084032 - 04/22/05 08:08 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

"The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he never been born." Mark 14:21 (page 777 for the Crowleyites)

Judas [Jude] is a Shadow figure in the Jungian sense. He is under Geburah (Severity) on the Kabbalistic Tree while Jesus is under Chesed [or Gedulah] (Mercy). The Wrath and the Grace of GOD are juxtaposed in this Conjunctio Oppositorum - two Spheres opposite one another on the Pillars of Severity and Mercy respectively. Since people here are referring to 'Christian mythology,' BUT speaking quite literally about these figures, I thought that I would intersperse the esoteric dimension to these figures. It just will not do to attempt a disconnect by using the word 'mythology' and then proceed to discuss the story quite literally. There is a psychological dissonance going on (not pointing at anyone in particular, just a strong tendency).

Questioning the intentionality of 'mythological' figures does not make ANY sense, while questioning historical figures' intentionality does. Which ontological category does one wish to discuss? Otherwise it is apples-to-oranges. Is this going to be psycho-history or mythology?


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: tomk]
    #4084041 - 04/22/05 08:28 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Did Judas have a last name? Or is that a call-sign?


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: tomk]
    #4084046 - 04/22/05 08:32 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Who said Judas went to hell?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: psyka]
    #4084052 - 04/22/05 08:34 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

psyka said:
Did Judas have a last name? Or is that a call-sign?




Iscariot


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4084057 - 04/22/05 08:38 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)



--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4084248 - 04/22/05 10:33 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Quote:

psyka said:
Did Judas have a last name? Or is that a call-sign?




Iscariot




judah ish kerioth...
the name of his region of origin...
the treasurer of the band was this one called judah, keeper of the common funds of the master and his disciples...
one much trusted by all, & certainly by their rabbi...
as to what motivated him to betray his master into the hands of the civil authorities, to be executed, (or at least, to suffer grievously) under the law of rome... well, in one passion telling, we was sent into the night from that last meal, instructed to do what he must & that quickly...
~
~~
~~~
in the thought-provoking nikos kazanttzakis novel (& the martin scorcese movie version) _the last temptation of christ_ the character development of judas is second only to that of jesus...
jesus is tormented by the question of how to relate to the forces driving him... while judas is tormented by the question of whether to kill his friend jesus as commanded by his zealot superiors (including perhaps saul of tarsus?) or to follow him as the annointed one of israel, come to establish the kingdom of the righteous on earth (and in the process eliminating the cursed romans from the holy land!)

and then jesus commands judas to turn him over to the authorites, for it is neccessary that the son of man suffer at the hands of the unrighteous ones; & when judas asks "why me, master?", he is told that none of the others is strong enough to do what must be done...


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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OfflineJCoke
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: gnrm23]
    #4084258 - 04/22/05 10:42 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I guess jesus could have been talking about the guilt the one who betrays him will feel...after all, judas killed himself (depending on the gospel you read..) out of guilt..

anyways, the same could be said about anyone going to hell, jesus lived for about 35 years, so at the most it was 35 years of a crappy life on earth, everyone else that goes to hell lives for enternity there...what ever happend to an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth...??


--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.


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Offlinewjames
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4084335 - 04/22/05 11:04 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Judas [Jude] is a Shadow figure in the Jungian sense.




I think you're on the right track. Do you think Judas is just the Shadow? Or does he represent some more specific Archetype? I think of Satan more as the Shadow. Judas is a betrayer--that's different. Maybe he's like an active agent of the Shadow which seeks to undermine the Jesus Archetype. It's interesting. I'd guess Jung talks about this somewhere.


--------------------
"We're all in this consciousness-raising business together."
"An idle mind is the devil's workshop."
"Everyone should eat hashish, but only once." - S. Dali


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: gnrm23]
    #4084719 - 04/22/05 01:30 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Alternative:

Iscariot - Sicari (the Sicarii were Jewish assassins, as Barabbas [Bar-abba: son of the father] was supposed to have been). Meaning inside of meanings.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: wjames]
    #4084732 - 04/22/05 01:33 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

From a Jungian perspective, Satan [Adversary] is GOD's Shadow. In the Gospel drama, Judas was the human embodiment of negative traits symbolized in one man.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Judas and Jesus [Re: tomk]
    #4085162 - 04/22/05 03:51 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

You know what this means?

New revolutionary icons of Judas burning in hell, hanging on a necklace!!!


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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