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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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A hypothetical question for Christians
    #3614373 -

Suppose there really was a historical person named Jesus who was crucified because he claimed to be a savior of humanity.

If you were there, at his crucifixion, and you were able to stop his murder, would you save him and allow him to live out the remainder of his life?

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Re: A hypothetical question for Christians [Re: ]
    #3614434 -

depends, would I know that he wanted to die for our sins...or that he would back in three days?


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hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.

Edited by JCoke (01/11/05 07:31 PM)

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Re: A hypothetical question for Christians [Re: JCoke]
    #3614505 -

You don't know anything except there's this guy who claims to be THE messiah and they're about to execute him. You've heard prophecies that the messiah must die to redeem humanity.

What will you do:

Save this man's life, or allow him to die in hope that these prophecies are true?

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Re: A hypothetical question for Christians [Re: ]
    #3614515 -

Max Headroom said:
Suppose there really was a historical person named Jesus who was crucified because he claimed to be a savior of humanity.

If you were there, at his crucifixion, and you were able to stop his murder, would you save him and allow him to live out the remainder of his life?


If he was truely God you wouldn't be able to stop it!


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Re: A hypothetical question for Christians [Re: ld50negative1]
    #3614531 -

if there's this guy who claims to be THE messiah and they're about to execute him. and there's these prophecies that the messiah must die to redeem humanity,,,I would let do what he came to do.

i'm sorry, were you expecting a more thought out response?


--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.

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Re: A hypothetical question for Christians [Re: ]
    #3615188 -

Max Headroom said:
Suppose there really was a historical person named Jesus who was crucified because he claimed to be a savior of humanity.

If you were there, at his crucifixion, and you were able to stop his murder, would you save him and allow him to live out the remainder of his life?


If someone had been able to be there to stop his crucifixion, he wouldn't have been able to die for our sins, and therefore he wouldn't have been the son of God.

Aside from all that :grin: , would I know ahead of time that he was here to save Man from his sons?  If so, no, I wouldn't have saved him.  I'll bet his mother could have put a good word in with God, but she didn't.  She probably could have saved him, but she knew the purpose he was here to serve.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: A hypothetical question for Christians [Re: ]
    #3615212 -

I would save him.
Then I'd crucify the mob and start a new religion that shunned gatherings. It would be millenia ahead of its time... the first and only tele-religion. Operators are standing by.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: A hypothetical question for Christians [Re: Frog]
    #3615213 -

personally, though im not a christain at all and think this jesus character was some spanish guy with a mis pronounced name who had a little bit to much a few to many times and became dilllusionall and actually thought he was the son of god.
id let em kill the fucker.
why not, its worth a shot, right?


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"yet the more i dig, the more i consume, the more i unfold... the less protected i feel.
i am the spit on the hair of the son of an electron, swimming around the nucleus of a cell inside the sperm of a killer bee, and my purpose is as nebulous as why weve been bestowed with the capacity to give a shit" Brandon Boyd


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Re: A hypothetical question for Christians [Re: Frog]
    #3615214 -

This type of scenario says that the Romans had NO CHOICE, but to kill him. This doesn't seem like any sort of free will nor personal responsibility. Are all killers part of the divine plan (i.e. pawns in a cosmic chess game) ?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: A hypothetical question for Christians [Re: ]
    #3615230 -

What I have to wonder is why it was necessary for him to die on the cross in order to save mankind. If God is omnipotent, he could save mankind any way he chose, so why did he have to go about it the hard way?

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Re: A hypothetical question for Christians [Re: Swami]
    #3615556 -

Swami said:
This type of scenario says that the Romans had NO CHOICE, but to kill him. This doesn't seem like any sort of free will nor personal responsibility. Are all killers part of the divine plan (i.e. pawns in a cosmic chess game) ?


No, imo, there is such thing as NO CHOICE. There may be a divine plan, but it is up to each individual to decide whether to play a part.

And what part do you want to play? That's the no. 1 question, in my book.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: A hypothetical question for Christians [Re: Frog]
    #3615573 -

How could JC's death have been fated and free choice at the same time? *Swami scratches head*


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: A hypothetical question for Christians [Re: Swami]
    #3615613 -

Jesus was a human, like us. He had free will, like us. His free will is evidenced during his death wherein he asks his father to take the cup away from him. He doesn't want to have to make the choice, but he did.

We all have free choice.

Free will is another question.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: A hypothetical question for Christians [Re: Frog]
    #3615922 -

Save him.

Have compassion, he was a fellow human.

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Re: A hypothetical question for Christians [Re: Digs]
    #3616411 -

hypothetically i would save him cause he knows where all the amanitas are.

and i would make him stop spouting his nonsense and if he didnt appreciate my saving his life and said something about supposed to die for humanity's sins, i would crucify him myself.

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Re: A hypothetical question for Christians [Re: fresh313]
    #3616616 -

I would cry "I'll save you, Jesus! I've loved you since you were a little baby!" then I rush up, and I guess I'd either start rocking the crucifix to loosen the ground's hold on it, or I'd try shimmying up it, and what, try yanking the nails out? or just yank Him off the nails, but that would be pretty messy, plus I'm not sure my stomach would be up for that. Oh wait, before I made it to the crucifix some Roman soldier or crucifix watchman apprehended me, and now I'm up one of the funkin things myself. whose idea was this?

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Re: A hypothetical question for Christians [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3616657 -

ideally youd stop it before he got nailed up... i guess you could wait though, if your into that sorta thing

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Re: A hypothetical question for Christians [Re: fresh313]
    #3617010 -

okay...
well, why was he there?
he was warned to keep out of jerusalem for that passover festival...
and he purposely went & "cast put the moneychangers" at the temple... (very dangerous & quite provacative, not only to the temple officials, but to the jewish ruling council (the sanhedrin) and to the romans (who had soldiers stationed overlooking the temple inner court, and had been known to sorta "wade in to the fray" on occasion to restore order - often leaving more than a few dead & wounded jews in their wake, to be sure!)
he had private arrangments made in advance for an upper room to celebrate the pesach seder meal (very crowded city for the festival; accomodations difficult to obtain, & the disciples knew nothing other than to follow his orders per getting the room)...
during the meal, he instructed their treasurer, judas, to leave & do what he must do quickly; & then went to the gethsemane garden to pray & await his "betrayal" & arrest...
it was prophetically neccessary that the massiach suffer for israel (according to many interpretations of jewish scripture), but perhaps not absolutely needful that he die...

has anyone read _the passover plot_ ?
this man jesus orchestrated the entire affair, perhaps so that he might recover from his hanging on a tree & lead the oppressed of israel against the might of rome & establish the kingdom of the righteous...

the "godhood" of this galileean rabbi (son of god, & eventually the 3rd person of the triune god) & the bodily resurrection (after "three days") & ascent into heaven to sit at the right hand of the father (after 40 days?) have a strong resonance with other mediterranean "dead & risen" god (or goddess) cults...
(& in the novel (& movie) _the last temptation of christ_ jesus is given the opportunity to get off the cross & leave all this messiah business behind him, & live the life of a man among men... the last possible temptation (with the first being his retreat into the desert for 40 days, mmmkay?)...)

of course ymmv...

(how many different treatments of this scenario have been done in the sci-fi lit? plenty, i'll betcha...)


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care

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Re: A hypothetical question for Christians [Re: Frog]
    #3617270 -

To those that would let him be murdered, where's your sense of compassion? Is it not the "Christ-like" thing to do to stop someone from being harmed or killed if you can?

I'm just having a lot of trouble understanding this mindset, where you would allow a man to be killed in order to fulfill a prophecy that may or may not be true.

I also don't understand how Jesus's murder saves humanity from sin. It just doesn't make sense. (These logical inconsistencies were the reason I gave up Catholicism in my early teens. Someone has yet to make a logically sound explanation for this human sacrifice.)

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Re: A hypothetical question for Christians [Re: gnrm23]
    #3617290 -

Yeah, according to the account in the Bible, he "had it coming." But still, I'm not really interested in the circumstances surrounding his arrest and execution so much as to why anyone would let him be killed if they could stop it.

And suppose, according to belief, that he willingly wanted to be killed? Wouldn't a man who claims to be humanity's savior and then willingly allow himself to be executed qualify as a bit mentally ill, in our modern day thinking?

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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