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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: Memories]
    #16549870 -

Memories said:
teknix said:
It is obvious there is not understanding. It is Shown by the erroneous allegations and defamation and the continuance of such claims made against me. (personalisms) That have nothing to do with the topic at hand.


You said I have no understanding of philosophical fallacies. That is a personalism as it refers to my person. Am I wrong?


Yes, it is wrong. what was said it "It is obvious there is not understanding." By the logic that "YOU" present anyone that says there is misunderstanding is partaking in a personalism, very faulty logic. GET IT YET ??????????????????????

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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: teknix]
    #16549886 -

Now you are lying. You said, "you obviously do not have any understanding of fallacies".

That is a direct quote.

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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: teknix]
    #16549910 -

Nope, either there is understanding or not, has nothing to do with you. Present an actual argument in regards to the premise or go away if you don't like the way I type. You don't win here by falsely claiming personalism. Not even remotely.

Saying there isn't understanding isn't a personalism. (that is what you quoted)

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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: teknix]
    #16549928 -

If you present stupid shit I'm going to tell you how stupid it is. That is the idea here . .

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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: teknix]
    #16551905 -

teknix said:
There was alternative logic presented to aid that claim. Which is that Will is illusory without a choice to be chosen. It boiled down to choice.


I think we agree on what it boils down to and the question of choice is much the same as the question of freeness in regard to the source of it all, or even will in intention of usage. I don't have a problem with the idea that will is illusory that choice is illusory even in the face of a choice, or that freedom is illusory being considered from an ultimate perspective.

I'm willing to consider that action may be neither free nor not free but rather a deterministic tendency that is being permeated by a fundamental randomness. This is in part thanks to you and your thread on QM. :smile: To call it un-free just wouldn't be right and for the same reason calling it free wouldn't be right... though in the legal sense the universe being seen as human would in fact operate with free will, having no other influence but it's own.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: Rahz]
    #16553273 -

Rahz said:
...though in the legal sense the universe being seen as human would in fact operate with free will, having no other influence but it's own.


Which obviously isn't true, as the whole universe is not human. And I'd love to see someone disprove that factors external and internal to the human body (that we are or aren't aware of) influence our behavior. Somebody has to prove to me that our choices are in no way based on those influences and I'll start believing our awareness is capable of having a will that isn't determined by anything.


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #16553434 -

This is basically how I see it.  My best and most honest guess.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: Icelander]
    #16554061 -

Well, I don't see that because:

If randomness is cause of an apparent or appearance of free will, determinism runs into a brick wall when you attempt determine the cause of the randomness or random outcome.

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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #16554126 -

Just jumping in, I will read on in the thread later, but the most important question would be this:

What one has to prove, to prove the nonexistence of free will ?
So what proof would exclude the possibility of free will ?

[Yah, just because one can't prove a negative - in a 'general' context. But in a narrow context one can prove negatives. "In this glass there is no water"]

edit: After reading: Oh the determinism - trap again :smile: As we know now, the universe can't be proven to be deterministic, so can't our will. So end of debate, what is 'free' anyways, if at least it leaves me a choice hehe :jointsmile:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Edited by BlueCoyote (07/19/12 01:55 PM)

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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #16554324 -

BlueCoyote said:
Just jumping in, I will read on in the thread later, but the most important question would be this:

What one has to prove, to prove the nonexistence of free will ?



I'm guessing they have to prove that our conscious awareness (or whereever the choice "is produced") decides how we behave without any help from our environment and subconscious/ unconscious mind.

Quote:
So what proof would exclude the possibility of free will ?


I dunno. Maybe that we can not change the environment with our minds, because we are a part of it and its not a part of us, except for in our imaginations I guess. I think proof of a sub/unconscious mind would also qualify. I've sort of been rehashing this for quite sometime, because to me its all the proof i need, even if there is a tiny bit of my brain that makes the final decision. As long as it does not hold all the power, it isn't free in my opinion.


Quote:
[Yah, just because one can't prove a negative - in a 'general' context. But in a narrow context one can prove negatives. "In this glass there is no water"]

edit: After reading: Oh the determinism - trap again :smile: As we know now, the universe can't be proven to be deterministic, so can't our will. So end of debate, what is 'free' anyways, if at least it leaves me a choice hehe :jointsmile:


The determinism- trap again? :stoned:


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #16554676 -

Here is a link to Michio Kaku's take, and it seems to agree with my argument.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/einstein-was-wrong-does-physics-end-the-free-will-debate/

Check it.

It long past time to bail out the fail boat.

:failboat:

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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #16554692 -

We tend to forget that minimal 'disturbances' in a system can give huge variations in output.
I would consider 'quantum randomness' as a minimal disturbance :rastana:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: teknix]
    #16554704 -

Uncertainty Principle only applies to quantum observations. To say that this means decisions on the macro level follow the same rules is unfounded.

Also, even if quantum fluctuations affect the macro level, it doesn't mean we have free will. It means we have will that is subject to random fluctuations. By definitions we don't have control over these fluctuations because it is random.

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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: Memories]
    #16554734 -

Check science forums dude, there is a post about Diamonds being entangled. It's not limited to the microcosm and excluded from the macrocosm, even if it were, the neurons in our brains are of the microcosm.

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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: teknix]
    #16554788 -

Quote:
Also, even if quantum fluctuations affect the macro level, it doesn't mean we have free will. It means we have will that is subject to random fluctuations. By definitions we don't have control over these fluctuations because it is random.


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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: Memories]
    #16554834 -

No, it means the universe can't be completely and strictly predetermined.

Quote:
β€œWhat we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning.”

β€œThe first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn you into an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass God is waiting for you.”

- Werner Heisenberg




Did you watch the video I posted for you?

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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: teknix]
    #16555064 -

teknix said:
No, it means the universe can't be completely and strictly predetermined.


Did you watch the video I posted for you?


I did watch the video.

And the parts of the universe that have been shown to be random are the quantum movements of particles. Assuming this randomness at the quantum level can be observed at the macro level means that decisions observed on the macro level will be dictated by said randomness. Your decisions on the macro level will be dictated by newtonian and quantum laws of motion, both of which you have no control over.

This lack of control is why your will is not free. You are the by-product of the movements of particles.

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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: Memories]
    #16555077 -

It is a fundamental aspect of actuality. Why should we be immune to it?

We are made up of atoms.

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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: teknix]
    #16555094 -

We aren't immune to it. The fact that our actions are dictated by fluctuations which we can't control means we are slaves to randomness.

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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: Memories]
    #16555111 -

Memories said:
We aren't immune to it. The fact that our actions are dictated by fluctuations which we can't control means we are slaves to randomness.


This sounds AWESOM3! Hahahha
Slaves to randomness
Hmmm....

1L


--------------------
hmm...

"I'm naked and fearless... And my fear is naked."

"life isn't worth living without the threat of death"

"I got my plans in a ziploc bag, let's see how unproductive we can be"

"nobody lives their lives fully except for bull fighters"

My Trade List

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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