Home | Community | Message Board


Original Seeds Store - Cannabis Seeds
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1
OfflineDavid_Scape
Anti Genius
Male

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 878
Loc: U.S. of muthafuckin A.
Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
Free Will has a Magical Definition.
    #1912632 - 09/13/03 02:33 PM (14 years, 15 days ago)

:stoned:  consider...

Our act of choosing is a process that follows laws, wether they be conscious or unconscious alike.
agree? disagree?
Is the mystery of "free will" solved?   


--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinejahfeelirie
meatwad

Registered: 10/05/02
Posts: 531
Last seen: 12 years, 9 days
Re: Free Will has a Magical Definition. [Re: David_Scape]
    #1912638 - 09/13/03 02:34 PM (14 years, 15 days ago)

I agree.

Determinism through free will.


--------------------
my signature is too long


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineRhizoid
carbon unit
Male

Registered: 01/23/00
Posts: 1,728
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 1 month, 4 days
Re: Free Will has a Magical Definition. [Re: David_Scape]
    #1912788 - 09/13/03 03:29 PM (14 years, 15 days ago)

The process of choosing is to a large extent deterministic, since rules and patterns can often be identified within this process.

Truly free will is only involved when the patterns are broken in unpredictable ways. This is the same as true randomness, but unfortunately randomness doesn't sound as cool as free will. Randomness is manifested the same way as free will, through the introduction of completely new information into the universe. Both are acts of creation.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Free Will has a Magical Definition. [Re: David_Scape]
    #1912813 - 09/13/03 03:39 PM (14 years, 15 days ago)

This is compatibilism... and it's a friggin' copout.

from THIS thread:

So... the continuum of "choice"

< determinists------compatibilists-----"true free will" advocates >

Here are several different types of "true free will" advocates that are worth mentioning:
1. The libertarian types
2. The John Searle types
3. The Heteroabsolutist types

To explain them... I'd need more time than I'm willing to spend on a message board.
So pick up a philosophy of mind book and learn 1) and 2).
From there, I can use terminology shortcuts to explain 3).

That is, IF anyone really cares all that much.
But I'd be willing to do it if someone put forth that much effort in learning about this stuff.


* Another relevant thread
* Check out the part of this thread where I've discussed null preference.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineDavid_Scape
Anti Genius
Male

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 878
Loc: U.S. of muthafuckin A.
Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
Re: Free Will has a Magical Definition. [Re: Sclorch]
    #1912998 - 09/13/03 04:49 PM (14 years, 15 days ago)

I liked that compatiblism link (it was FOR compatibilism, right? ).
Now, could you just give a nugget of something? even if you feel it will go over my head? Compatiblism is a copout of what? Responsibility? Cause, that, I would argue against. I need a better nugget of a contradictory position on your part. plus, im having trouble seeing the difference between determinism and compatibilism.

Im assuming you take the "true free will" advocates, in the continuum of choice..


--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Free Will has a Magical Definition. [Re: David_Scape]
    #1913065 - 09/13/03 05:06 PM (14 years, 15 days ago)

Yes, that particular link was FOR compatibilism. Since compatibilism is the preferred explanation of the bulk of the AI field, most online information is going to be pro-compatibilism (unfortunately).

Compatibilism attempts to change the definition of free will from
"person A picks chocolate over vanilla because they're making a choice"
to
"person A picks chocolate over vanilla because they have such and such set of mental programming rules inside their head that prevent them from picking anything else, BUT since this is who they are, this is what they want to do anyway"

See the difference?

plus, im having trouble seeing the difference between determinism and compatibilism.

Me too. Hence... compatibilism seems to be nothing more than a euphemism for determinism.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineDavid_Scape
Anti Genius
Male

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 878
Loc: U.S. of muthafuckin A.
Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
Re: Free Will has a Magical Definition. [Re: Sclorch]
    #1913153 - 09/13/03 05:38 PM (14 years, 15 days ago)


Sclorch:
Compatibilism attempts to change the definition of free will from
"person A picks chocolate over the vanilla because they're making a choice"
to
"Person A picks chocolate over vanilla because they have such and such set of mental programming rules inside their head that prevent them from picking anything else, BUT since this is who they are, this is what they want to do anyway"


Yes, that's about right. What's wrong with it? The latter explanation is what Choice is. describe the 'true free will advocate" stance.


9edit0changed it.






--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram


Edited by David_Scape (09/13/03 10:23 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,851
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 month, 18 days
Re: Free Will has a Magical Definition. [Re: David_Scape]
    #1913228 - 09/13/03 06:00 PM (14 years, 15 days ago)

The existance of a pattern only predicts the next number in the pattern, it does not actually prove that the next number will follow the pattern..

This doesn't really apply in mathematics because there is no free will involved in mathematics. I really don't know much on the subject, but let me explain:

People develop patterns of behaviour. Let's say that Georgeino ALWAYS picks chocalate ice cream EVERY time he goes to the ice cream stand, which is every day. He has picked this kind of ice cream for the past three years. Let's say that he has been doing it so long, that he just walks up and automatically says "one chocalate ice cream cone" without even thinking about it.

On his way to the ice cream stand today, he looks at the menu above and actually reads it today, let's say that it caught his eye and he realized that he never even noticed it there.. he reads the options, and says "one vanilla ice cream cone, please".

Every second of our lives, we have the option to pursue any option. No matter how set our patterns are and how easy it is to follow them, it is just as easy to break them. All it takes is one thought. Simply realizing that our actions are the results of mental programming is a big step towards this.

One might have emotionally backed programs that keep one from flying airplanes. For whatever reason, they experience actual fear even thinking of flying on one. Just because something is emotionally backed doesn't mean shit. This emotionally backed program might have one so afraid of walking onto an airplane that they never will. However, no matter how afraid one is, they can still take the extra effort and force oneself to walk onto the plane..

Anyways, yeah. Complete and utter free will. At any given time, one can easily walk out into traffic or jump off a bridge. The choice is ALWAYS there, as long as getting to a road or a bridge is possible. There isn't anything that keeps us from our free will. Of course, our free will can only make do with the available surroundings, but it is still there. Being in jail might SEVERELY limit your available choices, but it still doesn't mean that your free will has been imposed on. There just isn't much that you can choose to do with your free will.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineRhizoid
carbon unit
Male

Registered: 01/23/00
Posts: 1,728
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 1 month, 4 days
Re: Free Will has a Magical Definition. [Re: Sclorch]
    #1913372 - 09/13/03 07:20 PM (14 years, 15 days ago)

In my opinion a lot of the philosophical debate about AI has been discussing the wrong things. Free will requires indeterminism, because otherwise it's not free. But I can find no reason why this indeterminism can't come from the outside. A deterministic computer connected to a source of random data would be able to exhibit free will.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineDavid_Scape
Anti Genius
Male

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 878
Loc: U.S. of muthafuckin A.
Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
Re: Free Will has a Magical Definition. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1913897 - 09/13/03 10:26 PM (14 years, 15 days ago)


I think that you and I are thinking the same thing, but you didnt recognize that a self is a pattern that is self-aware. It can see itself and attempt to change its own behavior. While this gives freedom in a sense. It does not fit the magical definition many people try to force into 'free-will'. Self-awareness adds an advantage, but it is still deterministic.


--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: Free Will has a Magical Definition. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1914073 - 09/13/03 11:46 PM (14 years, 15 days ago)

People develop patterns of behaviour. Let's say that Georgeino ALWAYS picks chocalate ice cream EVERY time he goes to the ice cream stand, which is every day. He has picked this kind of ice cream for the past three years. Let's say that he has been doing it so long, that he just walks up and automatically says "one chocalate ice cream cone" without even thinking about it.

during the time he orders his ice cream he is thinking about his problems with his wife, wondering if his son will make the football team, and how bad his back hurts from old age.

On his way to the ice cream stand today, he looks at the menu above and actually reads it today, let's say that it caught his eye and he realized that he never even noticed it there.. he reads the options, and says "one vanilla ice cream cone, please".

maybe he was having an excellent day! he wasn't worrying about anything, his wife loved him again, his son got 4 sacks last game, so while his head is clear of all that, he takes the time to drift over the menu and sees vanilla... "hmm i think i'll try that!"

there are REASONS why he didn't look at the menu before, and there are REASONS why he looked at the menu today.

free will didn't manifest itself out of the blue one day... every thought overlaps and builds on the next, every signal and input is classified and marked.

triggers fire when you make a "decision" and the workings behind these triggers have reasons. the reasons are built off of other triggers which have an equation.

free will is not in the equation because its not tangible, unlike his wife/son/back.






Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,851
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 month, 18 days
Re: Free Will has a Magical Definition. [Re: ]
    #1914778 - 09/14/03 06:59 AM (14 years, 15 days ago)

He could have just as easily looked at the sign and chose chocalate, or anything else. I am not debating whatever it is that prevented him from acknowledging the sign. This is about the active choice we either do or don't take in everything that we do. And not actively taking a choice is a choice as well...
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Free Will has a Magical Definition. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1917259 - 09/15/03 02:55 AM (14 years, 14 days ago)

Hmm... I have some input... but I'm soooo tired right now.

This is my reminder to pick this up later. :smile:


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,851
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 month, 18 days
Re: Free Will has a Magical Definition. [Re: Sclorch]
    #1917473 - 09/15/03 07:14 AM (14 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

Sclorch said:
Hmm... I have some input... but I'm soooo tired right now.

This is my reminder to pick this up later. :smile: 




I await your words with great anticipation, young master.

Indeed. :grin: (imagine a high and dry British accent!)
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinegnrm23
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/30/99
Posts: 6,481
Loc: n. e. OH, USSA
Last seen: 1 month, 22 days
Re: Free Will has a Magical Definition. [Re: David_Scape]
    #1917645 - 09/15/03 10:14 AM (14 years, 13 days ago)

"free will"
hmmm...
so....
there was a village in which, when strangers would arrive, they would be informed as to the peculiarities of the "village idiot" as regards his choices...
so up comes a traveller, and sez to mulla nasruddin, he sez to him: hey nasruddin, choose between this nice shiny big quarter and this nice shiny little dime...
and nasruddin would take the dime...
every traveller, every time...
so, finally, one of the villagers sez to nasruddin, he sez to him: mulla, why do you always take the dime? don'tcha know the quarter is worth more?
and mulla nasruddin, he sez: well, yeah, but if i took the quarter they would stop offering...
~
~
ummm, i hope this helps...
:wink:
~
~


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Free Will has a Magical Definition. [Re: David_Scape]
    #1918219 - 09/15/03 03:16 PM (14 years, 13 days ago)

David Scape: Yes, that's about right. What's wrong with it? The latter explanation is what Choice is. describe the 'true free will advocate" stance.

I haven't been able to perfectly (and concisely) articulate my thoughts on my position on free will. Maybe I'll work on that soon.
True free will seems to be one of those concepts that just can't be proven. I don't see a cause for every choice I make, yet one could counter "exactly... YOU don't see the cause... it doesn't mean it's not there..." and they would be right. It's the same basic argument determinists use against the Heisenberg and Shrodinger: "all Heisenberg and Shrodinger prove is that there is a flaw in our ability to measure things... and we just can't observe the cause." I say that they have no proof that a cause exists and that they are banking on that.
So far, it comes down to this: Randomness vs. unseen cause


Rhizoid: In my opinion a lot of the philosophical debate about AI has been discussing the wrong things. Free will requires indeterminism, because otherwise it's not free. But I can find no reason why this indeterminism can't come from the outside. A deterministic computer connected to a source of random data would be able to exhibit free will.

I think I just partially hit on this in the Trying "quantify" Epistemology thread:
Me: This is NOT free will, in my view. Free will is not just a set of deterministic choice cascades where the initial mover was random input. Though, I will say that it is possible that such processes DO occur in the brain... as the brain is most certainly capable of having patterns (preferences, favorites, etc.) and possibly situations of null preference (either choice cascade is just as viable). Free will is not merely a stochastic equation.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,851
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 month, 18 days
Re: Free Will has a Magical Definition. [Re: Sclorch]
    #1918233 - 09/15/03 03:20 PM (14 years, 13 days ago)

Just remember, I think that we have free will, just that sometimes we don't utilize it.. I could go jump out my window right now, man. Or, I guess I could take off all my clothes, walk the mile or two to Knarvik, walk into the police station, and start screaming that Lenin has risen from his tomb and that I would have killed him if Donald Trump himself didn't get in a boxing match with him, and then Bill Clinton flew by on the Hindenburg with Led Zeppelin..

I mean, come on! That option is always there! :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineRhizoid
carbon unit
Male

Registered: 01/23/00
Posts: 1,728
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 1 month, 4 days
Re: Free Will has a Magical Definition. [Re: Sclorch]
    #1918873 - 09/15/03 06:52 PM (14 years, 13 days ago)

Quote:

Free will is not merely a stochastic equation.



A random value is just a way of saying "plug in any of the possible values". Or to be precise, that's a maximally entropic random variable, it has no bias. All stochastic functions, biased or not, can be deterministically constructed from such variables.

Free will means "choose one of the possible choices". If there is a bias in this choice, I don't see why it can't be reformulated as a non-biased choice (i.e. maximally entropic) that gets skewed by a deterministic function.

So at the core of both free will and randomness there is this choice of one out of several possibilities, with no bias at all. As I see it, there is no fundamental difference here. Randomness just has a bad reputation. Randomness is simply a name for the outcomes of non-deterministic choices. And free will consists of all the non-deterministic choices that you yourself are personally responsible for. I don't see why two types of non-deterministic choices really need to be introduced.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: Free Will has a Magical Definition. [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1919350 - 09/15/03 09:08 PM (14 years, 13 days ago)

how come in all time-travel movies, when they travel back in time, the same decisions are always made?

for example "back to the future"... mr.fox had to be sure not to disrupt anything in the past or it will have an effect on the future. that is acting on the basis that everyone would make the same decision if time was played again.

i find this quite interesting.... if time was turned back and we started at the beginning of your life, would you end up exactly where you are today? or would you lead a totally different life based on the sheer cosmic amount of "decisions" we make everyday.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Free Will and Determinism...
( 1 2 3 all )
dr0mni 4,157 56 06/29/10 02:24 AM
by blinkybill
* Free will is bullshit.
( 1 2 3 4 ... 19 20 all )
Phluck 24,147 380 01/16/07 06:57 PM
by Brugman
* Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;)
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 all )
ZenGecko 11,182 148 04/23/07 12:22 AM
by PhanTomCat
* Can't Discuss Free Will as the Definition of Will is Not Substantial redgreenvines 1,177 9 01/16/07 02:24 PM
by BlueCoyote
* Emerald tablets of Thoth - TABLET VI: The Key of Magic Rudra 455 1 06/06/05 11:38 PM
by moog
* Magic: gullibility vs. open mind vs. intellect
( 1 2 all )
Swami 2,265 37 12/18/05 02:34 AM
by Huehuecoyotl
* Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Zanthius 5,199 72 09/03/11 03:50 PM
by Zanthius
* Its A Kind Of Magic: Reprise Jackenobi 629 2 05/28/07 01:44 AM
by Jackenobi

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, CosmicJoke, Jokeshopbeard, DividedQuantum
904 topic views. 1 members, 2 guests and 5 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
Edabea
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2017 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.036 seconds spending 0.004 seconds on 19 queries.