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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Everything Happens for a Reason
    #1268198 - 02/01/03 02:29 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

This is a popular mantra in many "spiritual" books written in the last 30 years and I must take strong exception to it.

Now scientifically, of course everything happens for a reason, such as in cause and effect.

Nor do I have a problem with a philosophy that says to use such events and try to extract something positive out of them.

But the usual meaning is, that it is the Universe's way of teaching us something or that some seemingly random (and often quite painful) event is part of a divine plan. This interpretation makes no sense whatsoever to me.

Are there those here that agree with the book's definition?

If you do, does that mean that an enraged gunman that sprays dozens of innocents full of hot lead with an AK-47 at the mall, is in fact helping people to realize their spirituality and is carrying out God's plan?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblebert
bodhi

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2,819
Loc: state
Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Swami]
    #1268213 - 02/01/03 02:35 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I agree with Swami. I think people boil down into two groups. Believers and non-belivers. SImple as that. Some people would rather have a more spiritual explanation of things rather than look at real evidence and come to a logical conclusion on matters. A lot of people need spirituality to cope with the chaos that is in the world. And some of us don't need a divine plan or reason.


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Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


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OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Swami]
    #1268258 - 02/01/03 02:51 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

So are you referring to determinism?

A determinist would say that the big-bang (if they believe in the big bang) and whatever caused IT (and so on and so on..) also caused every event in history leading up to the present and into the future, including the guy in the Mall killing people and the precise places his bullets hit and so on..

I used to be a determinist, but living beings and their actions are really hard to fit into that equasion. Its hard to fully accept OR fully deny the implications that every event that ever happens is caused by whatever JUST happened RIGHT before that.


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Edited by Strumpling (02/01/03 02:54 PM)


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OfflineEarth_Droid
Stranger
Registered: 04/19/02
Posts: 5,240
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Swami]
    #1268352 - 02/01/03 03:23 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Are you seperating science from religion again?


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Offlinerecalcitrant
My Own God

Registered: 04/20/02
Posts: 2,927
Loc: Canada West
Last seen: 6 months, 25 days
Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Strumpling]
    #1268513 - 02/01/03 04:03 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

If matter like protons and helium is NOT alive, and the big bang or god or whatever had determined the interactions of all the matter in the universe fifteen billion years ago, that wouldnt really explain how a person thinks they have the freedom of choice.

If we are alive or conscious or however you want to label it, then the protons and electrons of which we are made up are also alive?

Is the whole greater than the sum of its parts? Yes. The reason why science doesnt work is because there are infinit variables to every equation.

When science reduces its view of the universe (to the individual properties of whatever it is investigating) in an attempt to qualify and quantify each part separately, it misses out on the big picture. When two things are investigated seperately, we may discover (through the scientific process) the individual properties of each. But when the two are combined, emergent properties are created. Properties which are non existant (therefore immesurable) when investigating the two "things" seperately.

Since, in this reality, everything is connected and related to everything else it is impossible to have a complete understanding of anything.


did this relate at all to what you were talkin bout?


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We have to answer our own prayers


Edited by recalcitrant (02/01/03 04:05 PM)


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
Amateur Mycologist
Male

Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 3,774
Loc: Arizona
Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Swami]
    #1268607 - 02/01/03 04:31 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

If you do, does that mean that an enraged gunman that sprays dozens of innocents full of hot lead with an AK-47 at the mall, is in fact helping people to realize their spirituality and is carrying out God's plan?

I wouldn't necessarily think that the enraged gunman was in fact helping people to realize their spirituality, nor would I believe that he was carrying out God's plan; but I would, however, still say that it happened for a reason.

And just because it happened for a reason doesn't mean that it was originally caused by the Big Bang way back in the beginning of time.  If Strumpling's definition of determinism was correct, then I guess I am not a determinist.  But I still think that things happen for a reason. 

Not everything happens for a reason, but, in my opinion, a lot of things do.  Take a look at where you're sitting right now, and then take a look back in time and think about how you would not be sitting where you are right now were it not for a certain chain of events that somehow caused one another to happen.

I've done this many times before and been flabbergasted at the series of seemingly unrelated and random events that were actually all interconnected and woven together into the web of my life.  That right there proves that things happen for a reason, and I don't see how you could say otherwise.

It's just plain silly!  :blush: :tongue: :laugh: :grin: :ooo:

-RebelSteve


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Namaste.


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OfflineDogomush
Barbless Aryan

Registered: 10/05/02
Posts: 1,286
Loc: The Canadian west coast
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Swami]
    #1269184 - 02/01/03 07:49 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

an enraged gunman that sprays dozens of innocents full of hot lead with an AK-47 at the mall

Sounds like he's teaching 'em a real good lesson.... DIE!


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Offlinerecalcitrant
My Own God

Registered: 04/20/02
Posts: 2,927
Loc: Canada West
Last seen: 6 months, 25 days
Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Dogomush]
    #1269228 - 02/01/03 08:13 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

HAHA, i just read that again, since i got stoned, and went to try it in vice city. IT WORKED WONDERFULLY!

andit was hella fun


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We have to answer our own prayers


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Anonymous

Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Swami]
    #1269252 - 02/01/03 08:23 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

...does that mean that an enraged gunman that sprays dozens of innocents full of hot lead with an AK-47 at the mall, is in fact helping people to realize their spirituality and is carrying out God's plan?

In a way, yes. Souls need to learn lessons. Some are easy, some are painful. In this example I think it would be more like the gunman learning the consequences of his actions as well as the friends and family members of those killed, and how murder affects the natural process of life.

I don't want to assume here, but I think you are labelling violence and death as somehow against "God". Death and suffering are a part of the universal teaching process and also a part of God.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Registered: 10/11/02
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: recalcitrant]
    #1269270 - 02/01/03 08:32 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

"If we are alive or conscious or however you want to label it, then the protons and electrons of which we are made up are also alive?"

I don't believe so..... I think there needs to be certain arrangements (the "code" has to be right) of these protons and electrons to "spark" life.... kinda like how you were saying that combining two things can create new properties that didn't exist for either of them seperately.. but rofl I'm no scientist so I really have no clue, but that's my guess :wink:

I'm with you when you say it is impossible to have a complete understanding of everything, but you must admit that we are far from understanding all that we CAN understand.. Science discovers what appears to be reason for things that used to be understood.... I feel that when something happens "for no reason," it is just because we haven't yet figured out what the cause/reason was.


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Swami]
    #1269396 - 02/01/03 09:40 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

i think it simply mean that engaging in life and existance "shit happens", its like sorting anything to gain entropy and move on, its sorting and to sort we must discard some symbols or anything you want so we can make a pattern and in this process "bad shit happens". for ex. a species in order to adapt must learn how to breath with certain new foreign air particles, those that dont die, those that learn live. its so things can evolve. thus each instance is a relection or counter to another opposing event. if you believe that we are all just floating about carelessly you believe in anarchy and must accept its opposite and try to fight yourself in duality which is a waste of time if you just see its a cycle like anyhting. are you trying to say that because people kill someone else that god or something wanted it to happen or willed it to? i dont think of god as an abstraction and indeed if god is god goes infinitely in all directions if it is all that is it said to be which it is but anyway you have to look at it like well people died and then people saw shit. and thus fits in accordance to universal law. i dont see it as some sort of judge who decides to fit instances in within any certain situation, like i said shit happens. what was the aim of your last question?

i dont think you can try and look on this from the outside or subjectively, its just a sytem of instances. for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, as you move about your room you hit other particles which in turn hit other particles all the way to the edge of the earth and out and beyond into the galaxies and the whole universe. those impulses inside your brain vibrate and travel down which make your hands move and body twitch. its a constant cycle. i think your last question can be answered very simply, its possible that people might wake up but its also possible that people will just become more stupid and start shooting more people. shit happens :smile: and thus effects other things and so on and so forth.


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What?


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OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 5 years, 6 months
Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Zero7a1]
    #1269403 - 02/01/03 09:42 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I've learned how to breathe all sorts of strange chemicals :wink:


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Strumpling]
    #1269416 - 02/01/03 09:47 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

the dinosaurs sure didnt, well maybe some of them :wink: :smile:


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What?


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Offlinerecalcitrant
My Own God

Registered: 04/20/02
Posts: 2,927
Loc: Canada West
Last seen: 6 months, 25 days
Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Zero7a1]
    #1269480 - 02/01/03 10:10 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

dinosaurs are birds


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We have to answer our own prayers


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InvisibleShroomismM
Space Travellin
Male User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 64,434
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Swami]
    #1269729 - 02/02/03 12:13 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

While I don't agree with that definition you provided, I do believe their is a spiritual, universal law of cause and effect which I like to call "Karma". Karma is based on the same principle, that every action or thought has an equal and opposite reaction.

Everything does happen for a reason, although we may not recognize it immediately. Sometimes the insight does not come until it is moot.

Does an enraged madmen spraying bullets into a crowd help them realize their spirituality? I would say yes. All of creation is a part of God's plan, the ugly and the beautiful. This is the crazy cosmic dance called life where anything can and will happen. Besides, nothing gets you thinking about God and spirituality as much as death...

Now, whether these actions are "good" or "bad".. that's where karma comes in. When you send out a thought, or create an action, it effects other people. If you infringe upon someone's free will and cause them harm, that creates negative karma which is on your "permanent record" on the cellular soul level..'positive' karma is created by acts of love and kindness, and together they balance each other out. So in order to balance the karma created from harming someone, that soul will be compelled to spread love and knowledge in order to balance the scales. Karma is not always resolved instantly. Sometimes it takes several lifetimes to work through certain issues.

The fact of the matter is, there are a LOT of souls on this planet, with a lot of thought and action, and a lot of karma going back and forth. People make stupid decisions sometimes, but that's part of their learning process. Their victims are going through a learning process also. We are all on seperate paths of evolution and our paths cross all the time. Everything that happens is just another lesson in the great schoolyard called life, and like I said earlier, sometimes you don't realize it was even a lesson until late in the game. We aren't omniscient beings, (yet) so we don't see the entire, divine plan. We see from our very limited perspective. But once we are able to grasp the 'big picture' just a little bit more, and how all these interconnecting realities operate... I can assure you there will be a lot less madmen running around offing people.

So basically everything happens as it should. We can't always know why it happened right away. The universe works in mysterious ways... at least to our current level of comprehension.


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Offlineenotake2
Stop Bush's war
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Registered: 01/30/03
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Strumpling]
    #1269801 - 02/02/03 01:08 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Where does that leave free will then?


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Computer games don't affect kids. I mean if Pacman affected our generation as kids, we'd all be running around in a darkened room, munching pills and listening to repetitive electronic music.

"Being bitter and hateful is like drinking a vial of poison and hoping the other person gets sick" FreakQLibrium

"My motto from here on out is: If someone or something (including me) in my life is conducting themselves in such a way that they can be seen on Jerry Springer, it's time to take out the garbage!!! When you stop taking their behaviour personally and see their antics as a true reflection on their character, it becomes absolutely nauseating." Anon. on abusive relationships.


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Offlinenubious
1up on the rest

Registered: 10/20/02
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: enotake2]
    #1270078 - 02/02/03 06:37 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Where does that leave free will then?

I'm going to use math as a comparrison for my response on this, as I find it best suits the metaphorical need. There are an infinite number of solutions to achieve one problem. Some are more efficient then others, achieving the final answer with less steps. If you think of (and this is absolutely metaphorical) life as a big creation as one big 'problem', so to speak, free will dictates which steps we take to achieve the final (is there a final) result.

I hope that helps.


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No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.


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InvisibleIn(di)go
People of the sun.
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Earth_Droid]
    #1270226 - 02/02/03 07:44 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Are you seperating science from religion again?


lol


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OfflineKilljoy
TheHyperdimensionalSlug

Registered: 01/28/03
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Earth_Droid]
    #1270249 - 02/02/03 07:51 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Science IS a religion.
Anyone who doubts this should go and videotape evolution for me.
People forget that science is based on theories, and that these theories (though they work for creating cities and cars and such) will forever be incomplete because there is always an exception to every rule, even if haven't seen it yet. :tongue:


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InvisibleIn(di)go
People of the sun.
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Posts: 8,150
Loc: Cologne, Germany
Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: recalcitrant]
    #1270256 - 02/02/03 07:52 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

When science reduces its view of the universe (to the individual properties of whatever it is investigating) in an attempt to qualify and quantify each part separately, it misses out on the big picture. When two things are investigated seperately, we may discover (through the scientific process) the individual properties of each. But when the two are combined, emergent properties are created. Properties which are non existant (therefore immesurable) when investigating the two "things" seperately.


and remember that every experiment is altered by the viewer... the simple fact that someone is watching a certain reaction and casting thoughts on it changes the results dramatically...


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