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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

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Everything Happens for a Reason
    #1268198 - 02/01/03 02:29 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

This is a popular mantra in many "spiritual" books written in the last 30 years and I must take strong exception to it.

Now scientifically, of course everything happens for a reason, such as in cause and effect.

Nor do I have a problem with a philosophy that says to use such events and try to extract something positive out of them.

But the usual meaning is, that it is the Universe's way of teaching us something or that some seemingly random (and often quite painful) event is part of a divine plan. This interpretation makes no sense whatsoever to me.

Are there those here that agree with the book's definition?

If you do, does that mean that an enraged gunman that sprays dozens of innocents full of hot lead with an AK-47 at the mall, is in fact helping people to realize their spirituality and is carrying out God's plan?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblebert
bodhi

Registered: 10/14/02
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Swami]
    #1268213 - 02/01/03 02:35 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I agree with Swami. I think people boil down into two groups. Believers and non-belivers. SImple as that. Some people would rather have a more spiritual explanation of things rather than look at real evidence and come to a logical conclusion on matters. A lot of people need spirituality to cope with the chaos that is in the world. And some of us don't need a divine plan or reason.


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Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Swami]
    #1268258 - 02/01/03 02:51 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

So are you referring to determinism?

A determinist would say that the big-bang (if they believe in the big bang) and whatever caused IT (and so on and so on..) also caused every event in history leading up to the present and into the future, including the guy in the Mall killing people and the precise places his bullets hit and so on..

I used to be a determinist, but living beings and their actions are really hard to fit into that equasion. Its hard to fully accept OR fully deny the implications that every event that ever happens is caused by whatever JUST happened RIGHT before that.


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Edited by Strumpling (02/01/03 02:54 PM)


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OfflineEarth_Droid
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Swami]
    #1268352 - 02/01/03 03:23 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Are you seperating science from religion again?


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Offlinerecalcitrant
My Own God

Registered: 04/20/02
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Strumpling]
    #1268513 - 02/01/03 04:03 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

If matter like protons and helium is NOT alive, and the big bang or god or whatever had determined the interactions of all the matter in the universe fifteen billion years ago, that wouldnt really explain how a person thinks they have the freedom of choice.

If we are alive or conscious or however you want to label it, then the protons and electrons of which we are made up are also alive?

Is the whole greater than the sum of its parts? Yes. The reason why science doesnt work is because there are infinit variables to every equation.

When science reduces its view of the universe (to the individual properties of whatever it is investigating) in an attempt to qualify and quantify each part separately, it misses out on the big picture. When two things are investigated seperately, we may discover (through the scientific process) the individual properties of each. But when the two are combined, emergent properties are created. Properties which are non existant (therefore immesurable) when investigating the two "things" seperately.

Since, in this reality, everything is connected and related to everything else it is impossible to have a complete understanding of anything.


did this relate at all to what you were talkin bout?


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We have to answer our own prayers


Edited by recalcitrant (02/01/03 04:05 PM)


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
Amateur Mycologist
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Swami]
    #1268607 - 02/01/03 04:31 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

If you do, does that mean that an enraged gunman that sprays dozens of innocents full of hot lead with an AK-47 at the mall, is in fact helping people to realize their spirituality and is carrying out God's plan?

I wouldn't necessarily think that the enraged gunman was in fact helping people to realize their spirituality, nor would I believe that he was carrying out God's plan; but I would, however, still say that it happened for a reason.

And just because it happened for a reason doesn't mean that it was originally caused by the Big Bang way back in the beginning of time.  If Strumpling's definition of determinism was correct, then I guess I am not a determinist.  But I still think that things happen for a reason. 

Not everything happens for a reason, but, in my opinion, a lot of things do.  Take a look at where you're sitting right now, and then take a look back in time and think about how you would not be sitting where you are right now were it not for a certain chain of events that somehow caused one another to happen.

I've done this many times before and been flabbergasted at the series of seemingly unrelated and random events that were actually all interconnected and woven together into the web of my life.  That right there proves that things happen for a reason, and I don't see how you could say otherwise.

It's just plain silly!  :blush: :tongue: :laugh: :grin: :ooo:

-RebelSteve


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Namaste.


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OfflineDogomush
Barbless Aryan

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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Swami]
    #1269184 - 02/01/03 07:49 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

an enraged gunman that sprays dozens of innocents full of hot lead with an AK-47 at the mall

Sounds like he's teaching 'em a real good lesson.... DIE!


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Offlinerecalcitrant
My Own God

Registered: 04/20/02
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Dogomush]
    #1269228 - 02/01/03 08:13 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

HAHA, i just read that again, since i got stoned, and went to try it in vice city. IT WORKED WONDERFULLY!

andit was hella fun


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We have to answer our own prayers


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Anonymous

Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Swami]
    #1269252 - 02/01/03 08:23 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

...does that mean that an enraged gunman that sprays dozens of innocents full of hot lead with an AK-47 at the mall, is in fact helping people to realize their spirituality and is carrying out God's plan?

In a way, yes. Souls need to learn lessons. Some are easy, some are painful. In this example I think it would be more like the gunman learning the consequences of his actions as well as the friends and family members of those killed, and how murder affects the natural process of life.

I don't want to assume here, but I think you are labelling violence and death as somehow against "God". Death and suffering are a part of the universal teaching process and also a part of God.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: recalcitrant]
    #1269270 - 02/01/03 08:32 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

"If we are alive or conscious or however you want to label it, then the protons and electrons of which we are made up are also alive?"

I don't believe so..... I think there needs to be certain arrangements (the "code" has to be right) of these protons and electrons to "spark" life.... kinda like how you were saying that combining two things can create new properties that didn't exist for either of them seperately.. but rofl I'm no scientist so I really have no clue, but that's my guess :wink:

I'm with you when you say it is impossible to have a complete understanding of everything, but you must admit that we are far from understanding all that we CAN understand.. Science discovers what appears to be reason for things that used to be understood.... I feel that when something happens "for no reason," it is just because we haven't yet figured out what the cause/reason was.


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
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Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Swami]
    #1269396 - 02/01/03 09:40 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

i think it simply mean that engaging in life and existance "shit happens", its like sorting anything to gain entropy and move on, its sorting and to sort we must discard some symbols or anything you want so we can make a pattern and in this process "bad shit happens". for ex. a species in order to adapt must learn how to breath with certain new foreign air particles, those that dont die, those that learn live. its so things can evolve. thus each instance is a relection or counter to another opposing event. if you believe that we are all just floating about carelessly you believe in anarchy and must accept its opposite and try to fight yourself in duality which is a waste of time if you just see its a cycle like anyhting. are you trying to say that because people kill someone else that god or something wanted it to happen or willed it to? i dont think of god as an abstraction and indeed if god is god goes infinitely in all directions if it is all that is it said to be which it is but anyway you have to look at it like well people died and then people saw shit. and thus fits in accordance to universal law. i dont see it as some sort of judge who decides to fit instances in within any certain situation, like i said shit happens. what was the aim of your last question?

i dont think you can try and look on this from the outside or subjectively, its just a sytem of instances. for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, as you move about your room you hit other particles which in turn hit other particles all the way to the edge of the earth and out and beyond into the galaxies and the whole universe. those impulses inside your brain vibrate and travel down which make your hands move and body twitch. its a constant cycle. i think your last question can be answered very simply, its possible that people might wake up but its also possible that people will just become more stupid and start shooting more people. shit happens :smile: and thus effects other things and so on and so forth.


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What?


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Zero7a1]
    #1269403 - 02/01/03 09:42 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I've learned how to breathe all sorts of strange chemicals :wink:


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Strumpling]
    #1269416 - 02/01/03 09:47 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

the dinosaurs sure didnt, well maybe some of them :wink: :smile:


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What?


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Offlinerecalcitrant
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Zero7a1]
    #1269480 - 02/01/03 10:10 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

dinosaurs are birds


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We have to answer our own prayers


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Swami]
    #1269729 - 02/02/03 12:13 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

While I don't agree with that definition you provided, I do believe their is a spiritual, universal law of cause and effect which I like to call "Karma". Karma is based on the same principle, that every action or thought has an equal and opposite reaction.

Everything does happen for a reason, although we may not recognize it immediately. Sometimes the insight does not come until it is moot.

Does an enraged madmen spraying bullets into a crowd help them realize their spirituality? I would say yes. All of creation is a part of God's plan, the ugly and the beautiful. This is the crazy cosmic dance called life where anything can and will happen. Besides, nothing gets you thinking about God and spirituality as much as death...

Now, whether these actions are "good" or "bad".. that's where karma comes in. When you send out a thought, or create an action, it effects other people. If you infringe upon someone's free will and cause them harm, that creates negative karma which is on your "permanent record" on the cellular soul level..'positive' karma is created by acts of love and kindness, and together they balance each other out. So in order to balance the karma created from harming someone, that soul will be compelled to spread love and knowledge in order to balance the scales. Karma is not always resolved instantly. Sometimes it takes several lifetimes to work through certain issues.

The fact of the matter is, there are a LOT of souls on this planet, with a lot of thought and action, and a lot of karma going back and forth. People make stupid decisions sometimes, but that's part of their learning process. Their victims are going through a learning process also. We are all on seperate paths of evolution and our paths cross all the time. Everything that happens is just another lesson in the great schoolyard called life, and like I said earlier, sometimes you don't realize it was even a lesson until late in the game. We aren't omniscient beings, (yet) so we don't see the entire, divine plan. We see from our very limited perspective. But once we are able to grasp the 'big picture' just a little bit more, and how all these interconnecting realities operate... I can assure you there will be a lot less madmen running around offing people.

So basically everything happens as it should. We can't always know why it happened right away. The universe works in mysterious ways... at least to our current level of comprehension.


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Offlineenotake2
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Strumpling]
    #1269801 - 02/02/03 01:08 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Where does that leave free will then?


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Computer games don't affect kids. I mean if Pacman affected our generation as kids, we'd all be running around in a darkened room, munching pills and listening to repetitive electronic music.

"Being bitter and hateful is like drinking a vial of poison and hoping the other person gets sick" FreakQLibrium

"My motto from here on out is: If someone or something (including me) in my life is conducting themselves in such a way that they can be seen on Jerry Springer, it's time to take out the garbage!!! When you stop taking their behaviour personally and see their antics as a true reflection on their character, it becomes absolutely nauseating." Anon. on abusive relationships.


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Offlinenubious
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: enotake2]
    #1270078 - 02/02/03 06:37 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Where does that leave free will then?

I'm going to use math as a comparrison for my response on this, as I find it best suits the metaphorical need. There are an infinite number of solutions to achieve one problem. Some are more efficient then others, achieving the final answer with less steps. If you think of (and this is absolutely metaphorical) life as a big creation as one big 'problem', so to speak, free will dictates which steps we take to achieve the final (is there a final) result.

I hope that helps.


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No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.


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InvisibleIn(di)go
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Earth_Droid]
    #1270226 - 02/02/03 07:44 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Are you seperating science from religion again?


lol


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OfflineKilljoy
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Earth_Droid]
    #1270249 - 02/02/03 07:51 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Science IS a religion.
Anyone who doubts this should go and videotape evolution for me.
People forget that science is based on theories, and that these theories (though they work for creating cities and cars and such) will forever be incomplete because there is always an exception to every rule, even if haven't seen it yet. :tongue:


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InvisibleIn(di)go
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: recalcitrant]
    #1270256 - 02/02/03 07:52 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

When science reduces its view of the universe (to the individual properties of whatever it is investigating) in an attempt to qualify and quantify each part separately, it misses out on the big picture. When two things are investigated seperately, we may discover (through the scientific process) the individual properties of each. But when the two are combined, emergent properties are created. Properties which are non existant (therefore immesurable) when investigating the two "things" seperately.


and remember that every experiment is altered by the viewer... the simple fact that someone is watching a certain reaction and casting thoughts on it changes the results dramatically...


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Swami]
    #1270985 - 02/02/03 12:47 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

The dirty fractal edge... hehehe

We know this: Things happen.
That's one of the only things that we'll ever know for sure.
Sometimes people do things for a reason. Sometimes we can see this.
Sometimes people actions are the random result of the "divine" chaos of uncertainty.

Shit happens... only the insecure need an answer for everything.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineGrav
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Sclorch]
    #1271019 - 02/02/03 01:02 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

i dont believe things happen for a reason.

i believe in total chaos and that all responsibility lies in our hands (unfortunately)


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Invisiblemr crisper
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Grav]
    #1271084 - 02/02/03 01:30 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

chaos, random and chance are cop-outs.
we use these terms to describe effects where the causes and contributing factors are too difficult to determine. humans tend to be unwilling to acknowledge the limitations of their tools for operating in the physical.


grav, how and why should we take responsibility or be responsible for 'total chaos'?
was this decided by some higher power,
or was it a random issuance of responsibility, that just happened to fall in our laps?
we are just humans, it's not that big a job.


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Offlinejohnnyfive
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Killjoy]
    #1271092 - 02/02/03 01:38 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Science IS a religion.




You mean science is spirituallity, check out my "How did we create the universe?" forum!




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And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!


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Offlinejohnnyfive
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Swami]
    #1271105 - 02/02/03 01:47 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Are there those here that agree with the book's definition?

If you do, does that mean that an enraged gunman that sprays dozens of innocents full of hot lead with an AK-47 at the mall, is in fact helping people to realize their spirituality and is carrying out God's plan?




Yes (it part of god's plan), why was the gun man mad? Why was killing people seem aproprite to do at that time? Did he have food on his plate this morning? Did he just get fucked by his job or girlfriend?(in no way am i saying that killing people is justifyed by food, or anger) In 2025 when we are looking back on the 21th century, (to figure it all out; why even volence exisited), we'll be witinessing why the old way wouldn't work and would only kill us in the end!

Evil is nessisary for the balance of good, if we were to look back on that incident
we would be examining why he did it, and the knowleadge we get from that episode, we'll apply to our future's to make sure it never happens agian!


--------------------
And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!


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Invisiblemr crisper
.

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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Sclorch]
    #1271111 - 02/02/03 01:52 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Sometimes people do things for a reason. Sometimes we can see this.
Sometimes people actions are the random result of the "divine" chaos of uncertainty




the only uncertainty is ours.
just because the myriad of factors that go together to have an effect are often too complex to be identified, doesn't mean we should adopt that tiresome human stance of minimalizing whatever we don't understand.

'shit happens' - more minimalizing. we are unable or too lazy to realize the causes or implications of an event, so throw it away with the label of 'shit' and shut ourselves off to any further contemplation. deep.




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Offlinerecalcitrant
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Sclorch]
    #1271207 - 02/02/03 02:55 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

i think i agree with sclorch.

All i know for sure is that i see shit happen. I dont see the reasons behind it, i dont understand the cause of it, just that it is. and isnt that enuf?


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We have to answer our own prayers


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OfflineGrav
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: mr crisper]
    #1271347 - 02/02/03 03:57 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

chaos, random and chance are cop-outs.
how is chaos a cop-out? copping out of what?

i realize that particles follow a specific pattern, just like our brains, but i'm talking spiritually here.

to me chaos means that there is no order to things. there is no "master control".
anything that seems like a concrete and solid order is just temporary. always changing.

how and why should we take responsibility or be responsible for 'total chaos'?
was this decided by some higher power


i didnt mean we have responsibility for chaos, i meant we have sole responsibility of our lives inside this chaos. we have the power to change the meanings of our existence however we want. just because we live for an expensive car and a big house today doesn't mean we will tomorrow.

i don't believe in a higher power. but i do believe in a potential power that humanity has.

or was it a random issuance of responsibility, that just happened to fall in our laps?
we are just humans, it's not that big a job.

yes it seems random to me that we are even here at all, but i think it is beautiful to be a part of whatever chaotic creation has made us. and yes this responsibility did fall into our laps and i dont think it's taking us quite some time to catch on.


^^^^^ imo


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: mr crisper]
    #1272146 - 02/02/03 09:47 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

crispie: the only uncertainty is ours.
just because the myriad of factors that go together to have an effect are often too complex to be identified, doesn't mean we should adopt that tiresome human stance of minimalizing whatever we don't understand.


It's not minimalizing. It's acknowledging our limits and being okay with that.
But hey... go ahead and think you're just a cog in the machine... I could care less for those who refuse to take responsibility (for what they can). Go ahead and devise some sort of metaphysical construct that ties everything together... it won't be any more valid than what I'm saying. The only difference will be that I'm not running around being a self-righteous-now-it-all-because-I-have-the-"key"-to-the-universe. Which means I can go back to doing something other than looking at star charts, reinterpreting ancient texts, or praying for JHVH-1 to beam me up the next time the Hale-Bopp comet comes around.

Whatever floats your boat, man... unless it's putting holes in my ship (then I have to return fire).


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Offlineallcaps
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Sclorch]
    #1272705 - 02/03/03 05:24 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I think it all boils down to the self fulfilling prophecy. People who believe things happen for a reason subconsiously look and wait for a reason. For example, say there are 2 brothers, ages 18 and 15. They both are typical teenagers and get in their fair share of trouble. Say the 15 year old has gotten into drugs. Well one day the 18 year old gets tragically killed. As a result of that, the younger brother changes his ways and becomes a "good kid". Well if the mother is religious or believes things happen for a reason she may believe that her son's death was to save her other son. To me, it seems ridiculous to think that God would kill one person to change the attitude for another person. Yet some people will believe this. I think it helps them cope. If they can find something good that comes as a result of something bad, it helps them deal with bad times. I see it as simply an effect from a major event, not as a reason for it.


Edited by allcaps (02/03/03 05:25 AM)


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OfflineFliquid
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Swami]
    #1272757 - 02/03/03 05:48 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Did you know that reasons are only important if you are a human?
Just let things happen. Nothing we do matters. We can do whatever we want...
We're doing it just now...  :smirk: 


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Invisiblemr crisper
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Grav]
    #1272759 - 02/03/03 05:49 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

i feel  chaos is a cop-out because it releases you from thinking about cause/effect.

do you think the laws of physics have correspondences on the different levels of manifestation? is there, perhaps, just one law that covers the entire spectrum?
Quote:

to me chaos means that there is no order to things. there is no "master control".




yes, this is what chaos means to me too.
Quote:

anything that seems like a concrete and solid order is just temporary. always changing


but, to me, this is change, one of the few things i am certain about.

Quote:

i don't believe in a higher power. but i do believe in a potential power that humanity has.



i only wish to discuss the point that you hold beliefs.
how have you come to hold these spiritual  beliefs? were you born with them? did you realise them chaotically? or was there a chain of occurrences over time - discussions, experiences, books, etc - that led you to this point?
do you think in 20 years time you will still hold these beliefs? after all, as you wrote, everything changes....even beliefs.
how do you think your beliefs will change? as i said above, from what you observe, experience and absorb. with this knowledge you are free to choose your direction.
do you see how your spiritual beliefs are also subject to the laws of cause and effect? where can the line be drawn?

you  predict soon we will "catch on",
if we catch on, it will no longer be chaos.

Quote:

i think it is beautiful to be a part of whatever chaotic creation has made us. and yes this responsibility did fall into our laps 



made us? for something to be made, order is required, a sequential process,  thought....mind.
yes, it is beautiful, even the reflection.
thanks grav, your post  made me think, very much appreciate it.
hope mine does likewise! :wink:
 


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Invisiblemr crisper
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Sclorch]
    #1272790 - 02/03/03 06:01 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

But hey... go ahead and think you're just a cog in the machine... I could care less for those who refuse to take responsibility (for what they can). Go ahead and devise some sort of metaphysical construct that ties everything together... it won't be any more valid than what I'm saying. The only difference will be that I'm not running around being a self-righteous-now-it-all-because-I-have-the-"key"-to-the-universe. Which means I can go back to doing something other than looking at star charts, reinterpreting ancient texts, or praying for JHVH-1 to beam me up the next time the Hale-Bopp comet comes around



wow sclorch, that steams! i'll be careful not to tread in it.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: mr crisper]
    #1273856 - 02/03/03 11:24 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

wow sclorch, that steams! i'll be careful not to tread in it.

Yeah... coming up with fantasies to make up for that ol' fear of the unknown is a great solution. Stick to it! [/sarcasm]

It really does irk me that intelligent people can have this dogmatic, undying belief that's really only there to temporarily suspend fear. If you're going to have faith in something... let it be faith in self, faith in uncertainty, faith in optimism... REAL hope.

It appears that it really is hard (for most) to conceive of a world that just happened. It's not like I was born with these non-beliefs that I have. Hell, I was raised Lutheran... they're even more conservative than Catholics. I was all about determinism... I went through the Alan Watts hoo-hah... fractals... string theory... Christ, maybe I'll take a photo of my bookshelf to show you where I've been. One day I just realized (after a good, hard trip) that I didn't need any of that. All I needed was me... there was and is no ego behind it... there was and is no dogmatic doctrine behind it... there was and is no book behind it... There was so much nothing that it became something, and that something is me.

whatever... I'm rambling...


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OfflineGrav
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: mr crisper]
    #1273993 - 02/03/03 11:58 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

i've held this sort of view for acouple years now
i dont know why i think this,  maybe i just got tired of being afraid of going to hell
but it just seems to make sense to me, and also opens up all the channels of love and open-mindedness that I couldn't possibly describe accurately here. 
if i leave all 'spiritual' rules and regulations behind, anything can happen... and i've learned from myself that it seems natural to love, whatever love is.  it just comes out and shows me new things all the time, and all i have to do is let go of any sense of order i hold to my self.
so maybe this view of mine is just something that makes me feel good? but maybe more than that. maybe feeling good like that is the meaning of my life.  not cuz i followed that meaning, but because i created it in my head out of nothing.

i knew you would split hairs about the creation thing  :tongue: 
i have no idea where we really came from, or if there was a reason we came here.
i guess the fact that we were created is all the reason I need to feel holy and divine.  i think the need for some religious hero is stemmed from fear that there is nobody's morals to follow. 

i believe in an order of creation and life - evolution,  watever.  it exists.

i do not believe in any predetermined reason or meaning for humanity other than that we were evolved over billions of years.  and when i think of nothing, blackness, emptiness... then living suddenly becomes euphoria to me and i wonder why we need a reason to live other than living.

when we "catch on" there will still be no meaning.  but we will all be doing things that make us genuinely happy and evolving our species.


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Invisiblemr crisper
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Sclorch]
    #1274426 - 02/03/03 02:08 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

coming up with fantasies to make up for that ol' fear of the unknown is a great solution
It really does irk me that intelligent people can have this dogmatic, undying belief



i assume you are talking about me, could you point out for me which part of my replies are fantasy and/or dogmatic, undying beliefs and why they are labelled such. it would be of some interest and benefit to me, thanks.
you seem to cling to your non-beliefs as dearly as some cling to their beliefs.
Quote:

All I needed was me... there was and is no ego behind it... there was and is no dogmatic doctrine behind it... there was and is no book behind it... There was so much nothing that it became something, and that something is me.




could you have come to this realisation without going through your life's experiences?
do you think, if you had never read those books and just dropped a shitload of acid (or whatever) you would have come to the same viewpoint?
are your current views 'set in concrete' or will they change, like everything else?
how can something come from nothing? it doesn't matter how much nothing you have, you can never get something from nothing, especially not a sclorch.
i hope my questions are not too irksome :grin:

 


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OfflineRemy
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Grav]
    #1274497 - 02/03/03 02:34 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Everything Happens for a Reason




Technically, everything does happen for a reason. The space shuttle crashed because something caused some kind of malfunction which caused it to crash/explode. This has nothing to do with determinism, or some divine plan though, its simply a karmic dance of action and reaction. I've played with the idea of this so called "plan for everything" and the more I think about it, the more obvious it becomes, that the universe is just as unpredictable as our daily lives. It is a great system (entity) made up of smaller systems (entities), which in turn break up into yet smaller entities, etc, etc... The only thing we truely have is our conciousness/spirit. In order to awaken our true consciouness we must awaken our spirit, and the two become one. This is the first level of enlightenment. Further levels involve the four stages of annihilation towards a state of true non-existence. All souls will eventually reach a state of pure enlightenment, but it requires one to first become spiritually aware, before one can start on the path of the spirit.


Edited by Remy (02/03/03 02:58 PM)


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Invisiblemr crisper
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Grav]
    #1274535 - 02/03/03 02:49 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

thanks grav, i know i'm being picky but...
Quote:

because i created it in my head out of nothing.




has anybody here ever had a truly original thought? a thought that was created out of nothing. or are thoughts and ideas born from the co-mingling of various experiences and perceptions over the course of time?

i find it curious that you wrote - 'we were created' and 'we were evolved', yet your final sentence states we are evolving ourselves. i guess this is the responsibility we discussed previously. have we been unleashed?
also interesting is the repeated use of the passive structure as we write about human history. by using this grammatical structure there is a continual soft re-inforcing that there is a 'doer' in the equation.


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Invisiblemr crisper
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Remy]
    #1274570 - 02/03/03 03:06 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

In order to awaken our true consciouness we must awaken our spirit,



how do we awaken our spirit? and from that point how do we proceed to awaken our true consciousness?


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OfflineGrav
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: mr crisper]
    #1274813 - 02/03/03 04:09 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

i dont know how 'original' the thought is. maybe it's just a group of chemicals lying dormant in everyone. how do we know where our thoughts come from? i suppose we can trace it back so far but then there's no telling at a certain point. i guess the real deep thoughts go past that point.

it seems sorta like an acid trip, you can be told for hours how it feels, but you dont actually create that feeling until you experience it yourself

i had never thought of that view of 'chaos' before. i'm sure i had heard people talking about it before but it never really clicked until i just started thinking about it. it was very hard to accept for awhile... i couldn't imagine making my own terms of what i thought was right and wrong for me, and i felt a little scared not to have another soul in the world that could tell me how to live my life.

but the more i thought about it the more it became obvious to me that it was some sort of truth, and all that other spiritual dogma was revealed to me as just something i held onto for safety.

i say i created it out of nothing because nobody had given me the mental tools to think that way, and it really didn't seem to benefit me in any way at the time, in fact it scared the shit out of me.
i remember lying in my bed all day wondering what was stopping me from going on a mass murdering rampage cuz i nolonger believed in the morals handed down to me. i didn't believe in anything. i've slowly and carefully been cultivating ever since.
or something like that....

and yea, evolution doesn't stop... the age of humanity is just a split second blink in time.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Grav]
    #1275801 - 02/03/03 09:39 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Keep it coming, Grav.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: In(di)go]
    #16813099 - 09/08/12 09:13 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Swami covered this topic about 9 years ago.


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #16813151 - 09/08/12 09:24 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

i wonder what happened to swami ? :confused:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: deff]
    #16813162 - 09/08/12 09:25 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

He merged into the Sea of Consciousness where all Enlightened Beings return.

*Splash*


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #16813179 - 09/08/12 09:28 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

ah, so wat ur sayin is he was banned ? :strokebeard3:

the weirdest thing is that it feels like he's still here. must be his aura or sumthin


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #16813180 - 09/08/12 09:28 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

I heard he ate a mushroom then ripped out someone's heart. :shrug:


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Diploid]
    #16813224 - 09/08/12 09:34 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Unfortunately it wasn't a mod's. :sad:


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #16813380 - 09/08/12 10:07 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Mods are heartless. :razz:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: Diploid]
    #16813403 - 09/08/12 10:11 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Twue.


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OfflineJaegar
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Re: Everything Happens for a Reason [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #16815792 - 09/09/12 09:34 AM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Their are no enlightened mammals to save you. They are opportunist, insane, or just assholes.


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